Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the following line of simple logic be enough to lay this argument to rest:

1) Different posters have shown very clearly that their interpretations of texts, particularly those of a religious nature, are very different to that put forward by boaz.

2) Therefore, very different interpretations, with quite different meanings exist. Even if theoretically there was a single meaning, the fact that there is no consensus would nullify that, particularly given the unreliable nature of texts from so long ago.

3) Therefore, the idea that there is a unifying, overarching interpretation, is demonstrably false.

I dunno about you, boaz, but I'd say that's a pretty clear 'slam dunk.' My interpretation is that your responses to the recent posts have appeared lacking in persuasive argument.

Hello Boazy and CJ,

Anthropologists seem to lean towards the Tsimshian worshiping Light and a Raven of Light/Twighlight. They don’t present as animists: Not to me at least. Objects that would normally have spirits seem to be just parts of the continuum.

As Marjorie Halpin, after a thorough study of Tsimshian materials, concluded, "Light is thus a principal attribute of divinity, and implies power and (male) potency. Light and seeing are direct oppositions to such naxnox qualities as death and darkness, although in a religious sense they may be the same" Halpin (1981) Seeing in Stone: Tsimshian Masking and the Twin Stone Masks. In The World Is As Sharp As a Knife: An Anthology in Honor of Wilson Duff, edited by Donald Abbot, 269-88. Victoria: British Columbia Provincial Museum.
“Creation was not a particular concern of the Tsimshian. Rather, the qualities and interrelationships of the universe received special attention in a series of adawx, sacred histories, which explained how things came to be as they are now and which ancestor of what house was involved in the process. Thus, in addition to general accounts of the rearranging of the universe, specific accounts, owned by named houses, indicated that everyone inhabited a world of the ancestors' making. While every habitat of sky, earth, and sea had its owners, leaders, and occupants, the being called Heaven, the source and deification of light, had priority among these chiefs. For Tsimshian (as for neighboring Tlingit, Haida, and others), the Raven naxnox or spirit known initially as Txaamsm and then as Wiget, literally 'wiigyet 'big person', did much to establish the present universe. Of all of his actions, the seminal one was the theft of bright light.” – A Light through the Ages. Contributors: Jay Miller (1997) University of Nebraska Press.

Of the World:

The world was unformed and in perpetual twilight. Many things existed in the sky, earth, and sea, but they were unconnected and the most advantageous were selfishly guarded from general knowledge. Only the members of chiefly families were distinct individuals!

-Cont.-

Dear Oly.. on the Tsimshian myth.. the words which leap out of the page to anyone who has lived in, and worked with traditional societies are "a bird of good omen" You might call this the 'core' or animism. "Omens" are the means by which the spirits communicate their will and pleasure or displeasure to the community. Its not that hard :) like I said "ask them"

PERICLES.. ur priceless.

"Son of God" may well have been added as you say.. shock horror. The circumstances and probability are the field of people amongst whom I will happily concede I'd be out of my depth. What you miss of course, is that even if it was added, as a kind of explanitory embellishment, it is in complete harmony with the rest of Scripture about which thee is no textual dispute. The Baptism of Jesus is one clear example "Behold you are.. MY SON with whom I am well pleased" just 8 verses later.

Now..don't misunderstand me, I absolutely admit and know, that for you to see the same Lord Jesus as I do, would involve conversion to Him.
This is another thing you are not yet aware of I feel, conversion, more appropriately described as salvation, is something which only God can work in your heart.
He can knock..and knock, but only when you open the door will He come in.
Now..you might counter "OH..but look at this unreliable text that your last sentense is based on".. to which I reply, God wills, what God wills.

Now.. returning to the issue of interpreting the 'text as it stands'.. and in particular the Quran... to be brutally honest, the Quran appears to have a more pure textual history than our Bible. There are of course understandable reasons for this, Othman BURNT all the fragments which did not fit his preferred text and thus, from 'that' point on.... it is a fairly pure text.

..continued)

...continued.

So.. given this fact, it is easier to interpret the text as it stands, without worrying about indefinite or definite articles etc. The simplest solution for the Arabic challenged is to take 3 independant translations, and compare the verses.
To make it even more stringent, one should compare the way one like Marmeduke Pickthal a British convert, translated to that of say Yusuf Ali and Shakir.
One would expect Pikthal to 'minimize' in the interests of his own kith and kin, but he still translates 9:30 as

Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! (i.e. Jews and Christians)

Noticably, Pikthals translation is the weakest.. when compared to Yusufali and Shakir.
Yusufali says :Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded
Shakir: may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

This of course leads to 'the plain sense of' the words. from Surah 9:29 "Fight those who" etc.. it doesn't take much interpreting. The only point which needs to be established is:

a)Was this understood by contemporary believers to mean such and such.
b)Did subsequent believers understand, use and apply that verse in the same way, under different circumstances.

Given that its a yes on both counts, to quote TRTL -that my friend is a slam dunk.

But I don't want to digress to there, it would make ur day too much :)
Its up to you whether you actually study those things about which you criticize me. You only have to answer to God ultimately and yourself in the meantime, certainly not to me.

TRTL.. hope ur reading here.

Mark.. I'd love to go through that, maybe we can some time:) much more edifiying than 'the other' text...no war... no intimidation with armies to induce belief..nope.. just wonders, signs and the Love of our Savior and His living Word.

"who is this man?, even the wind and waves obey him?" Mark 4:41

Boazy, there is a wealth of religious literature there for study. Sells I think makes the mistake of putting conviction before insight or research.

All,

A Tsimshiam Story:

“At one town, the chief and his wife were in mourning. Their only son had died. He was much loved and had shown great ability. Hearing the constant wailing of the chief and his wife made everyone sad.
Every day, the parents walked from their house to the tree that, in its upper branches, held the burial box of their son. As they went, they would sob and moan. Sometimes the wife would wail. They did this for a long time.

One day the wife awoke and began to wail, walking toward the burial tree. When she arrived, she saw a boy sitting on the box. His body shone as brightly as flames. Stunned, she stopped her crying and rushed back home. "Husband," she called, "Our son has returned." The man went back with her and everyone followed to find a boy sitting on the box. "Is it true that you have returned, my son?" the chief asked.

"Yes, I have come back," the boy replied. "Heaven felt your sorrow and sent me back. At first he was angry about the noise you caused, but, once he understood, he took pity."

"Come home with us," the man said. The boy climbed down and followed them. Everyone was amazed and pleased. The boy was given the place of honor in the house and esteemed as much if not more than the one who had died.” - [a different] Boas (1916).

A son returning from the Dead: Is it believable? - Boazy, fact, myth or legend?

- Birds in Myth & Legend:

”O deliver not the soul of thy turtledove unto the multitude of the wicked: forget not the congregation of thy poor for ever.’’ [Maschil] Psalm 74.19

“Raven himself was sent by Heaven, the ultimate source of this illumination, and the foremost of the naxnox spirits.’’ Tsimshian account

Bird power!

Happiness,

O.

Thanks Oliver - I hadn't read that myth. Fascinating.

However, I think the point has been well and truly made to Boazy by various people, but he is as impervious to reason on this as he is on any other issue. Indeed, it's been quite instructive as to how he constructs his twisted logic.

I think we should let him revel in the wonder of his own profundity.