Most of us will remember the dreadful news footage a father trying to hide his son while Israeli bullets hit all around.
Watching the child die and a feeling of hopelessness mixed with anger.
Yesterdays press told us that film was staged.
The death did not happen that way, it could not have.
Truth died too a victim of hate lies once again as harmfully as an ak47 could ever be.
Can we ever believe anything the Medea says?
In the middle east the answer would have to be with great care only.
while far away from that hurting part of the world and maybe not driven by the same hate Australian Medea , all of it lies to make a story.
But the element behind this story lie as a weapon and are driven by hate without end how do we trust future news story's from them?

Dear Belly

I'm so glad that YOU brought this story to us.. (I've mentioned it in passing before, but then.."I'm Christian" :) so.. how can I be believed when I bring such 'biased' stuff to the forefront?).. so some would say of me.....

Yes... if you sus this out on youtube, for various angles on the story, you will find there are some important documentaries outlining the Palestinian "Propogranda Teams" which operate in particular areas, and 'stage' regular "Israeli Outrages" or.. at least try to portray events as such.

People who 'die' or 'are shot' in the footage you see, suddenly get up and walk away a few minutes later after shooting has ceased :)

One thing is for sure.. the Arab Muslim 'machine' is working 25/8 to persuade the world of the 'evil' Jews and 'righteous' Palestinians.

If you want an insight into where this began, just read the book of Nehemiah in the old testament.. the issue was "Jews re-building the WALLs of Jerusalem" (gee..that sounds rather 'contemporary' too :)

The early 'Palestinians' (Phillistines, Arabs, Mixed marriage people between norther Israelite tribes and Palestinians) used specific steps... then didn't appeal to the UN. which didn't exist, they appealed to the equivalent of the day..the Persian Emperor and they used the same tactics.

Nothing much has changed.

WAIT.. we need to 'Cone of Silence' or.. heaven forbid CJ or Periscope will see this 'revelation' and it might be to much for them :)

It is appalling that whilst there was a mass media hysteria about the Al Dura affair...which caused so much fall out, in terms of revenge attacks, more death and mayhem, increased hatred of Israel (if that were at all possible)...now that it has been proven in court that it was a concoction by the media...no one seems to think it a particularly important bit of news! But to the reading public...this is massively important news! To see a number of articles about this appalling state of affairs check out this website... www.icjs-online.org. In particular this article www.icjs-online.org?article=1536.

The French TV station involved has indeed mounted a challenge in their High Court and I've read that only 4 people have actually seen the entire 27 minutes (let alone 18 minutes)of unreleased footage and their conclusion was not unanimous.

Although it may have been staged there were very many inconsistencies in the allegations – the boy wasn’t shot, he was shot and died, it was another boy, there were no bullets found, they were not the same bullets that the IDF uses, there were no bulletholes in the barrier, there were not enough bulletholes, the bulletholes were the wrong shape and size, there was no blood, there was fake blood, there wasn’t enough blood and so on.

A concise and agreed analysis would have been more valuable at the time than the scattergun approach with everybody challenging everything just on principle. That may have avoided some of the inevitable repercussions it caused.

I would have thought that as for the argument used against conspiracies like 911, there would have been so many people involved in staging such an elaborate event that somebody would have broken ranks by now. It certainly would have been known domestically.

Like the alleged gunboat attack that killed several civilians on a Gaza beach in 2006 where Israel tried to blame it on a Hamas landmine, it was an immediate move from a defence to a blame-the-victim approach strategy but nobody seems to be pushing that particular story any more.

It just goes to show that you can’t trust much of what the media tells you. Everybody has an agenda and we are being manipulated constantly.

Even Piers is using the story as an attack on Media Watch.

Piers?can you bring your self to read his spite filled lies?
BOAZ DAVID do not get me wrong I think all religions want to be the only one, hang on no not true but some want to be the one.
We would be better of without the main 3 in my view.
Given that lies are a weapon used by all and seemingly part of one.
This shameful event is not getting the mainstream support it got when first manufactured why?
We must not be smug our Medea while not driven by the same hate is not to be trusted most times.
The story says much about peace in the middle east, how can it over come such hate? such untruths?
I am aware David religion or not we may suffer much pain before we see an end to hate such as this lies such as these.

Errrrr... really?

>>Yesterdays press told us that film was staged<<

Which newspaper has finally caught up with this well-known piece of propaganda? I was late onto it myself - I think it was this piece in 2005 that alerted me to it.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=856&x_context=3

Apart from a direct interest in the fate of the libel case - I notice that France2 is appealing the appeal - what is the value in dredging up "news" as old as this?

Or this, I guess

http://www.thewe.cc/weplanet/news/middle_east/palestine/lest_we_forget.html

Or maybe this.

http://www.un.org/unrwa/news/releases/pr-2006/jer_8Dec06.pdf

So, I'll see your fake video and raise it two innocent children.

Sorry, what was the point again?

Pericles,

Thats a really ugly thing to say. Would you be happier if more jewish kids were dying? Do you need to see pictures of the absolute destruction a suicide bomber wreaks when they detonate inside a bus or a restaurant?

It is an undeniable fact that more Palestinians are dying that Israelis. If Hamas and the other terror organisations were better armed there would be far more Israeli casualties. I don't believe you can say the same for the Israelis. In fact if Israel had better technology I believe fewer civilians would be victims of attacks on terror targets.

Rockets regularly fall on Israeli towns fired from the gaza strip. They could do a great deal of damage but they are mostly jury-rigged and therefore not very accurate.

When Hamas and the other headhackers can accept that Israel has a right to exist, there can be real peace. Until then all Israel can do is try a kill the terrorists before they make it onto Israel proper.

If these gutless bastards weren't using their children as human shields there'd be fewer casualties. Like the kids who were playing at the site of a rocket launcher.

That's a little extreme, Paul.L

>>Thats a really ugly thing to say. Would you be happier if more jewish kids were dying?<<

If you interpreted my post as advocating the killing of Jewish children, all I can say is that it reflects very badly on your understanding of the English language.

If you deliberately chose to do so, on the other hand, it simply demonstrates exceptionally poor taste.

The point I was attempting to make - obviously rather poorly, given your comment - was that the digging up, in 2008, of an event that occurred in 2000, gives rise to the question, why? Or as I asked, what is the point that is being made here.

Using an eight-year-old event to stir up hatred all over again is, in my view, a little extreme. As can be seen from the posts that followed, there are plenty of folks here only too willing to use any and every opportunity to flaunt their anti-Islamic fear and loathing.

There is also absolutely nothing in the tragedy of Israel and Palestine that justifies the scoring of cheap points.

Missing the point. The point is that hatred was stirred up by the misrepresentation (mild term) of this event. In the name of this event, many hateful acts of terrorism were perpetrated and innocent lives lost...on both sides. If you don't think that the truth of the matter deserves to be told, and that the media be held accountable for its reporting then perhaps, yes...it would be better to just sweep it all under the carpet. But who will be held accountable for the lies and distortions, the propaganda parading as truth...? if not the media? Like it or not, there is a Palestinian propaganda machine, they do orchestrate happenings specifically for the media to record...to show Israel in the worst possible light to the world. See it for yourself, the information is readily available.

feisty, the point I'm trying to get across is not to deny that...

>>hatred was stirred up by the misrepresentation (mild term) of this event. In the name of this event, many hateful acts of terrorism were perpetrated and innocent lives lost...on both sides.<<

We all know that.

But this issue has now been in the public eye for eight years. Doubts over the validity of the material, and the concerns with the way it was presented, have been in the news for only a slightly shorter time.

I have no doubt in my mind that the item was a blatant piece of propaganda. I am aware that many people lost their lives. I can understand that the media should be held accountable for the mindless dissemination of this material.

My point, which I will be happy to repeat as many times as is necessary to get across, is that the regurgitation of this ancient piece of skullduggery at this time - eight years, I say again, after the event - can serve no useful purpose.

Instead, it will serve only to fan the flames of fear and loathing that have become such a regular feature of these threads.

Not to worry, Pericles, some people are not experiencing trouble understanding what you are saying. They even agree with you. (Well this one does, anyway). There has to be some point to what otherwise appears to be a random selection from an entire cornucopia of mis-deeds that have occurred in, for example, the last two years - let alone incidents which took place eight years ago? Yeah?

Unless this particular set-up has graduated to urban myth which is proving tenacious. Allowing it to continue perhaps into the next "decade unchecked would see it's metamorphosis into"fact".

Which seems to be happening in the case of the bogus Lhasa photo's. As soon as the first of those (The police laying into the monks)hit the new stands indignant howls went up from the majority of citizens in the world (which included the entire populations of China and India. )Because anyone who doesn't think "they all look the same" could immediately tell the racial characteristics of the police were of an entirely different ethnicity to the Chinese. While most of S.E. Asia can tell an Indian police uniform from a Chinese police uniform.

Same with the "Army Van" with the strange squiggles on it hustling innocent protesters off to the "re-education camps". To every Chinese reader in the world, the unregarded squiggles clearly spelled out the word "Ambulance". Not to mention that the "husslees" were a random assortment of police and civillians.

Even though France, Italy, America and the UK newspapers all admitted publicly to all the bogus photo's, and duly apologised (Again, quite publicly, many people in the West are still indignant about the "brutality of the soldiers to peaceful monks".

That only happened within the last couple of months, not eight years ago. That'd be as good a thing to make a fuss of as anything else at this time, perhaps?

That was just a bit smug of you Pericles, your remark about trading one life for another is weak and low.
That story was headline news 2 days ago as a result of that court case, it highlighted lies that are as common as ak47,s in that part of the world and used for the same purpose.
It is true that sections of Muslim fundamentalists believe their holy book requires them to lie to non Muslims.
The event was shameful it remains an act that shames those who did it and those who defend it.
Yes BOAZ DAVID is one tracked in his war on this religion but many truly are concerned and have every right to be, by such hate, so many lies.
Would your barbed words be used if it was highlighting an American lie?

Al-Dura's death, a cause celebre of the second intifada, provoked worldwide outrage. Streets, public squares, and schools in Muslim cities bore his name. He was featured on a Tunisian stamp, a poem by Mahmoud Darwish, and an al-Qaida recruitment video. "In killing this boy the Israelis killed every child in the world," Osama bin Laden said. In June 2005, Wafa Samir al-Bis, an aspiring 21-year-old "martyr," after being apprehended by Israeli guards at the Erez checkpoint in Gaza with 20 pounds of explosives in her underwear, said that she intended to carry out a suicide attack to retaliate for al-Dura's death.
My point...after all is that exposing lies and those who perpetrate them does not have a statute of limitations on it...the truth needs to be told and those who perpetrate lies and myths ought to be held accountable for the dire consequences of their actions.

Well put feisty while BOAZ DAVID seems surprised by my putting the thread up I have been aware of such lies used as weapons for a very long time.
The hate mixed with lies, for some not all, seen as a duty to lie to and hate non Muslims is out there for all to see.
In threads like this some ask about my intentions, am I driving a anti Muslim theme?
Well no say what you wish more Muslims are sickened by the hate than driving it.
But as is my right I believe in no God and as is my right think some in the name of every God do true evil.
This evil was and is inhuman and we would be better knowing our enemy , good men of all faiths should be proud to call these people behind this our enemy.

It may be old news, or no news to some of us.
But I’ll bet, the rebuttal/exposure/retraction –call it what you will. Will never be given an airing in the Palestinian territories, or their allied states.

You are absolutely correct Horus. Not only will it not get an airing...but if anything, it will be depicted as enemy propaganda and used to incite even more hatred. This is the stated aim of the Palestinian leaders and their henchmen...to incite enough hatred to further the violence against Israel and the west.

A bit more about media manipulation -

I found this recent article interesting.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/were-just-here-to-say-hi-terror-squad/2008/05/13/1210444418769.html?page=fullpage

I've read elsewhere that Leichardt and Hebron are "sister cities" and the photos were part of a personal collection.

I guess I'll have to be content with the exhibition at my own local library - a series of microscopy photos of guinea-pig sperm.

I should have added this recent comment from a well-known Rabbi

“Even when we seek revenge, it is important to make one thing clear – the life of one yeshiva boy is worth more than the lives of 1,000 Arabs . . . The Talmud states that if gentiles rob Israel of silver they will pay it back in gold, and all that is taken will be paid back in folds, but in cases like these there is nothing to pay back, since as I said – the life of one yeshiva boy is worth more than the lives of 1,000 Arabs.”

Hatred is not restricted to one side only.

The question is whether both sides feel they have a legitimate case.

I'd like to know which rabbi said this...and in what context...although I wouldn't deny it's possible that a particular rabbi did say it. However, just as pedophile priests are not representative of their faith so too individual rabbis do not necessarily represent the faith and practice of Judaism. Point in case, the "rabbis" who met with Ahmedinejad and who would welcome the demise of Israel...represent a rabid fringe group. In any case, this does not detract from the argument that the truth deserves to be heard and those who perpetrate lies held responsible for their actions.

FASCINATING...I just can't leave this_pearl_from_Pericles alone..

"Using an eight-year-old event to stir up hatred all over again ... As can be seen from the posts that followed, there are plenty of folks here only too willing to use any and every opportunity to flaunt their anti-Islamic fear and loathing."

So.. according to Pericles. an event which produced, hate and destruction, the polarization of the world..

..being SHOWN to be a lie,..and thus raising questions about many OTHER lies.. particularly the 'slant' placed on those horrific photo's and captions in one of Pericles links..

is just ADDING to the problem... rather than the solution...

So.. establishing 'truth'... is .. 'adding to hatred' ? the mind doth truly boggle..

I'm not sure what Pericles proposes as a 'real' solution here, and given his reluctance to transpose his "it reflects very badly on your understanding of the English language." accusation to Paul L, into his own efforts in understanding simple english texts which promote child sexual abuse, in certain holy books... I don't have much hope that Pericles knows much about 'solutions', rather, he just likes to criticize people?

Then there is this beauty :)

"There is also absolutely nothing in the tragedy of Israel and Palestine that justifies the scoring of cheap points."

Sounds a bit like "You don't have a clue..and I'm not interested in looking at ancient documents anyhow" (paraphrase of Pericles oft stated position)

Anyone wanna buy some cheap points?

Pericles is long on criticizing..but short on real workable solutions based on an understanding of both human nature and history.
He might refer to the 'infant' UN and 'childlike' 'Human Rights'...but both human nature and history should be his tutors there.

Perilous.. SOLUTION.. 'one side must win, and do so decisively'

All countries that exist..exist on that basis.
(no..this is not a 'Christian' solution, it's a 'worldly' one, the "Christian" one is:

'all sides lay down arms, and embrace Christ as Lord' why?

Galatians 3:28

<<There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.>> (nor is there 'Palestinian')

MORE..

According to SMH
The 'friends' of Hebron were simply and innocently trying to:

<<Ms Lawson said there was nothing alarming or disturbing about the exhibition,(WHAT?!) and that it MERELY raised the plight of "Palestinian refugees'' living in Hebron.>>

JEWISH MASSACRE.. I wonder how 'friendly' these 'friends of Hebron' would be if we put an exhibition in the same library, on the same day highting the horror the first major massacre of an ancient Jewish community by Arab Muslims in Hebron in 1929?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebron29.html

Of course.. they would HATE it..and call it "biased..divisive... a right wing plot..contributing to the problem not the solution, inciting hatred" etc ad nauseum

Nope.. "massacres of Jews" even before Israel came to 'be' is not in the Palestinian/Left Wing script.

But you better believe it IS...in mine!

Such examples have NOTHING whatsoever to do with 'ancient documents'... nope.. its all about LAND.. and 'politics'..

OH WAIT.. there WAS no 'Land' issue when these Jews were slaughtered.. it was all Arab land... *scratches head*..now where did I go wrong here?

1976 DAMOUR, LEBANON(long before Sabra and Shatila 1982)

I wonder how it would be if we had a large exhibition of the PLO massacre of Christian residents in Damour south Beruit.. a town of 25,000 driven mercilessly into the sea by Muslim Arab PLO...babies and grandmothers slaughtered... their crime ? "They were Christian"

http://www.truelebanon.bravehost.com/pics/dampics-slideshow.html

So... there is no end to 'what' can be shown to support one's cause, there is ample fuel for all sides. Then..people are surprised that I always go to the heart of the matter.. "what drives all this"

ancient divisions, theological differences? nah.. couldn't be that-what was I thinking?

Pointing out the age and context of the item is not the same as defending it, Belly.

>>The event was shameful it remains an act that shames those who did it and those who defend it.<<

And I totally agree that there should not be a statute of limitations on the truth, feisty...

>>My point...after all is that exposing lies and those who perpetrate them does not have a statute of limitations on it...the truth needs to be told and those who perpetrate lies and myths ought to be held accountable for the dire consequences of their actions<<

...no question.

But some thought must be given to the motives behind re-opening old wounds and getting fired up all over again.

In Northern Ireland they still talk of the Great Hunger, of the Black and Tans, and Of the IRA's indiscriminate murder of civilians by leaving crude bombs in bags under the seats in restaurants, pubs and buses

It is the culture of "keep our enemies atrocities in front of us so we can continually refuel our hatred".

This is not the rationale of people who want to end conflict, but of those who want to prolong it.

Pericles...the motive is to correct the lies. The motive is to make the journalists behave with integrity and balance, to force them to abide by high standards of journalism (what's that?) and afford us, their audiences, with truthful reporting in order to PREVENT MORE HATRED being stirred up. That's it in a nutshell. Fiction belongs in fiction novels and labelled as such. News should consist of reporting facts not making facts up to fuel one side's agenda. Opinion and commentary...well that's something else again. But at least if you read an opinion piece, you know that's what you are getting don't you?

feisty, we seem to be in violent agreement on every aspect except the timeframe.

>>Pericles...the motive is to correct the lies...<<

My point was that this was achieved many years ago. No-one has believed the video to be anything more than deliberate, hate-mongering propaganda for many years now. The publicity, the court case, everything has exposed the work for what it was. All lies have long been "corrected".

Correction of lies, and the promotion of truth, is no longer the issue. The issue is how long shall it continue to be used as a means to keep the fires of hatred burning.

Clearly I am in the minority here, and believe that time is a factor. If I had your attitude, I could not have worked for either the German or the Japanese companies that have employed me in the past.

Oh, and just in case you thought I hadn't noticed, Boaz...

>>an event which produced, hate and destruction, the polarization of the world... is just ADDING to the problem... rather than the solution"

Nope. Wrong again. Please re-read, in context. There, that's better, isn't it.

>>Pericles is long on criticizing..but short on real workable solutions based on an understanding of both human nature and history...Perilous.. SOLUTION.. 'one side must win, and do so decisively'<<

That's what I like about you Boaz. The ability to reduce an infinitely complex problem to one, simple solution.

Nuke the cr*p out of them.

You must have had information that I didn't. I would be curious to know when exactly the Al Dura affair was exposed as fake and by whom? I certainly was not reading about it in the press at any time. All I ever saw was that this event happened, it was reported to have happened and as a result ... bloodshed. Which newspapers worldwide revealed that it was a bunch of lies and fabrication? Has the Palestinian/Arab world been made aware of it? I don't think so.

Feisty,

The quote came from Mordechai Eliyahu., who also said (among other things) that the 2004 Tsumani was "..divine punishment for Asian governments supporting Israel's unilateral disengagement plan plan.”..

Here’s another of one his gems.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

This just goes to show that radical Muslims don’t have a monopoly on incitement to violence and intolerance.

This is a man appointed to a significant position within the community and with considerable influence, not some self-appointed "not-wrapped-tight" loony with a political grudge and an urge to make a headline. He also uses the Bible to directly support his views.
There are also a lot of similar provocative statements coming from the West as well.

As for the SMH article, BOAZY, I imagine that nobody would have closed down a similar display commemorating the anniversary of the Holocaust before the public had a chance to see it. I expect that would have created quite a bit of noise.

The point is that this is blatant political censorship by our own domestic “anti-terrorist” organisation that appears to be acting under instruction from - who exactly?
Aren’t we entitled to know ALL the facts – good AND bad?

If the al-Dura event was staged propaganda, what else is?

It’s not quite the same as Today-Tonight’s set up of little Wa-Wa who was going to be eaten by cannibals in Papua, but fairly typical of how we are treated and kept informed.

Rache,

Yeah a hundred countries around the world are suffering from radical Jewish rabbis who, with bombs strapped to the chest, are murdering children and women.

Singapore, the Phillipines, Indonesia, China, US, Britain, Spain, Holland, Argentina, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Chechnya, Bangladesh, Iraq, Yemen, Sudan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Denmark, France, Australia.

All these places have suffered attacks by crazed rabbis, with bombs hidden under their rabbinical robes.

Wait a moment ... I think somethings wrong here ... Thats right ... its radical muslims who are doing all the head hacking and self detonation.

No one has suggested that the Israelis are as pure as the driven snow. But to suggest that the radical Islamists are no worse than the radical Jews is a total departure from reality.

That's possible, feisty, but not likely.

>>You must have had information that I didn't.<<

As I mentioned in my first post, I picked up on this around three years ago.

>>I would be curious to know when exactly the Al Dura affair was exposed as fake and by whom?<<

As the item I referred to in the same post points out, it had been "outed" long before...

"As James Fallows wrote in an investigation of the case for The Atlantic Monthly (June 2003): "Whatever happened to him, he was not shot by the Israeli soldiers..."

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=856&x_context=3

But the rumours that it was fake started almost immediately.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=18774

Note the date: December 4th 2000

Note also that the splicing in of an Israeli soldier had already been noticed...

>>Has the Palestinian/Arab world been made aware of it?<<

I guess that depends whether they read Atlantic Monthly or WorldNetDaily

That's right Paul.L,
For all it's talk, Israel has never actually committed a single atrocity in their entire history. As long as they kill less than the others do, they maintain moral superiority.
It also pays to have powerful allies with lots of money (plus a pile of nukes on standby).

I guess those Palestinians had better just abandon their unjust struggle and let the Israelis help themselves to as much remaining territory as they think God wants them to have.

Instead of violence, a good letter-writing campaign to the media by the Palestinians (plus a few well-placed ads funded by lamington drives) should solve all their problems and bring a just and lasting peace to the region.

So obvious. I don't know why nobody thought of it earlier. I'll pass it on - Cheers!

It’s good to see some people can still keep their sense of humour
–Palestinians can learn all the facts re the Al Dura incident by reading the Atlantic Monthly or WorldNetDaily ! [ROFIFOL]

From the average Palestinian, the respond is likely to be –Atlantic what? –then, after a moment of reflection – so what!

“Does the Arab world know about it?”
Have they renamed Al Dura street ?
Have they taken his name off the list of 1001 glorious martyrs?
(what better proof of the pudding!)

When your kindergarten viewing is a Mickey Mouse
spouting anti-Jewish sentiment.
When your primary school texts extol the joys of suicide bombing civilian buses.
When your local press is all about your rights and their wrongs.
How on Earth is a report in a foreign rag-assuming you have access to it- going to change your opinion?

Why, even some of us, with access to the whole show still can’t quite accept it -note- “IF the al-Dura event was staged propaganda…?”