Online Poll:

http://www.tonyabbott.com.au/poll.asp

I'm a pro-choice person, so I voted "No", ie I agree that Bibles should be available for those who want them. Whether or not individuals choose to read the Bible or not is up to them. I've never been offended at finding a Gideons Bible in a hotel room. Neither would I be offended at finding a copy of the Koran, for instance. It's unlikely that I would open either of them, but I appreciate having free choice.

Strangely worded question, actually. Perhaps it should be "Should public hospital authorities allow the placement of Gideons Bibles by patients' bedsides?". I would hate to think that the placement of such publications is funded to any level by taxpayers.

Having said that, I think that public hospitals should permit the provision of all kinds of reading materials, including the Bible, Koran, Talmud, Bhagavad-Gita, Book of Mormon, Celestine Prophecies, Da Vinci Code, Lord of the Rings... etc etc - so long as they don't come from the hospital's budget.

What a contrived issue!

Possibly contrived, CJ, but maybe not. Gideon's bibles, as far as I'm aware, are funded by the Gideon's organisation, not by health authorities. The issue is the risk of infection by pathogenic organisms from patient to patient, (or from patient to health worker to patient). I'm not sure how you sterilise a bible to prevent it being a vector of infection. Am I being ridiculous?

See:http://www.medpagetoday.com/tbindex.cfm?tbid=1147

Personally I reckon there are probably much more sensible ways of reducing hospital acquired infections, e.g. getting health workers to wash their hands a bit more often.

Perhaps this is a storm in an inadequately washed hospital teacup. And who wants to drink hospital tea? Having more than my fair share of this noxious brew, I'd say, not me!

Thanks for that Snout - funny, I don't recall from the reportage at the time any mention of MRSA, which is actually a valid reason for removing the bibles if indeed there is a link. The media I recall focussed on the bogus PC/anti-discrimination angle. I guess that made a better story.

Snout is correct to ponder the hygiene of having Bibles next to hospital beds. Many pathogens survive on humidity trapped paper.

Bibles should be provided to the patient by the visitors of the particular patient. A hospital is a place for treating the ill and not a trap for organisations to push their products. If Bibles were supplied then we should allow Mc Donald’s and Coca-Cola place samples by every bed side.

Obviously equal weight should be given to every belief. Qurans, Torahs , Hindu and Buddhist scriptures , voodoo guides , satanic apocrypha’s, Tibetan and Egyptian books of the dead, Urns of ground ancestors, Sand mapping ect, should all be placed next to every bed.

Certainly it makes sense for volunteers to supply the above and relevant Bibles upon request to people with no friends or family or for whom visitors forget to bring a requested reading. They should not be placed next to every bed.

This society wastes too much paper as it is and the Bible in motels is a terrible waste of paper. Christians have their own Bible and non-cultists never read the Bible. From an environmental point of view placing the Bible next to every hospital bed is a decadent waste of resources not to mention the pollution printing the Bible causes

Are other organised religions permitted to place their material in the same places? My guess is they have mostly got better things to do.

On the health issue, maybe a stock left with the hospital which could be supplied on request (and disposed of after use by a patient at risk of transmitting something nasty).

I'm left wondering how some of our fundy friends would respond if the book beside their hospital bed was a New Age one, or some other religious belief that they don't like.

R0bert

RObert,

That has happened to me, and it has confirmed my belief that laughter is indeed the best medicine. I find a couple of chapters of Leviticus usually do the trick if I'm feeling a bit off colour.

you're in hospital and not too ill to read then ask someone to bring you reading material. if you are someone who thinks that reading the bible, koran or whatever you've been indoctrinated with will help then shouldn't you know by now what's written in it ?
how often do you need to re-read something before it is embedded in your memory. i do not believe that reading religous material makes a better person anyway. the argument re contamination of any reading material or anything that's handled by many patients with different illnesses is a very valid one.

Should all other religions have dedicated prayer rooms as do Muslims have at our Universities or don't the other religions have the same potential for offence and violence which negates other religions from have such special rights?

pragma,

lots of people find comfort in familiar reading materials. Oscar Wilde once said:

"I never travel without my diary. One should always have something sensational to read on the train."

Gideons Bibles are provided free of charge.

They are provided by the Gideons as a service to Patients who might wish to avail themselves of spiritual comfort.

The ministry of the Gideons is voluntary, and I'm sure any organization would be free to provide its holy book, though I think there might be practical limits on space etc.

The Gideons are a long established and well known group, and it was their idea :) If other faiths wish to offer reading materials, then I hope the Gideons Bible is never removed to make space.

Snout.. Amos is a much better read than Leviticus...and quite interestingly structured. Looking at the history of the day and subsequent, it is most educational in terms of 'the wages of national sin'.

Believe it or not... the Genealogies sometimes provide huge nuggets of gold, .. have a look at 1 Chronicles 1:12 and then verse 50
Notice anything unusual about the information contained there ?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=13&chapter=1&version=31
Then Chapter 2 verse 21

Arjay my religion of fresh air , clean water , live and let live is blasphemed against all the time. No Muslim or Christian cares that they offend me , nor am I protected by the political correctness that Muslims and Christians hide behind. You will find the the biggest churches or temples are shopping malls, sports stadiums and car parks. To reflect the true religion of Australia Myer catalogues, sports and motoring magazines should be provided next to hospital beds.

G’day Boaz,

By the standards of today, the Yahweh of Amos is a depressingly psychopathic tyrant, although I understand the intent of Amos (as with most prophets) to try to stir up a bit of social reform by appealing to his countrymen’s traditional relationship or covenant with their old war god. I’m always happy to try to find the good and interesting or the funny or insightful in the bible (or any other text): I love the beautiful language and mythology of Genesis, and much of the philosophy in Paul, or the elegant blend of myth, legend, liturgy and moral teaching as Matthew tries to link the old and new during the disastrous 8th decade CE of Judeo-Christian history. Even Deuteronomy provides an interesting historical record of the central idea (that of the Covenant) of this ancient temple state.

But I don’t quite understand how you can see Amos as a good read, especially for someone in a hospital bed who might not be feeling too well to start with. An interesting account of the mass psychosis of a particular ancient people at a particular time, sure, (or perhaps the personal madness of an individual), but I think the skeptic’s annotated bible sums it up pretty well: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/am/good_list.html.

As for the Genealogies in 1 Chronicles, I’m afraid you’ve lost me completely there. You might have to be a bit less obscure.

I have to admit, though, that I'm a bit wary of encouraging you in this way: I suspect my atheist-humanist mind is going to struggle to make any sense whatsoever of your christian-evangelist one! My snouty curiosity has overwhelmed me, however.

Yipee.. :) (snout)

Let me first agree with you about Amos and especially Lamentations... as NOT being exactly the kind of thing a person in intensive care might like to read.
Genesis would be quite uplifting though (once you got passed the flood) The stories of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Joseph etc.. are wonderfully heartwarming.

But back to the genealogy.
By way of background, let me also say that I myself did not appreciate them so much unTIL I spent 8 years in Sarawak, where such things are central to the indigenous culture. People can rattle off names (and anecdotes) of people going back many hundreds of years..they not only know their own direct line, but the branches and sub branches..amazing stuff. Like the line descending from the brother of the great great great great great grandfather.. and mother.. and so on.

Here is a morsel...

21 The sons of Shelah son of Judah:
Er the father of Lecah, Laadah the father of Mareshah and the clans of the linen workers at Beth Ashbea, 22 Jokim, the men of Cozeba, and Joash and Saraph, who ruled in Moab and Jashubi Lehem. (These records are from ancient times.) 23 They were the potters who lived at Netaim and Gederah; they stayed there and worked for the king.

Note the reference to 'linen workers' and 'potters'.....also a note about 'records'...

There are many more. One that I can't find is where it goes through 'so and so the son of... the son of.. the son of.. (this is the so and so "who lost his donkey and dug a well where he found it")

to distinguish him from any other of the same name...

This will seem obscure sorrrrry.. but to me, because I've LIVED this kind of thing, been surrounded by it, breathed it.... it just beats me around the head and grabs my undivided attention and wide eyed fascination. Not something I expect ill people to relate to :)

The structure is so real based on experience.
cheers.

Err...... who cares ?

I doubt that the Bible, the Koran, the Baghavad Gita, the Tora or any religious text will make a difference to the medical outcome.

(unless, of course, the medical team was all of the same/my faith and dearly wanted to save one of "their own".

Could I suggest all those concerned they might pick up viruses and infection not touch any reading material in Dr.s surgeries. They are rearely replaced or sterilised. At least good Gideon companies constantly replace well used Bibles. You see the issue is about Bibles not reading materials of virus infected paper.

The highest health risk a Gideons bible would pose is spreading mental illness, afterall the Bible was written to spread paranioa based superstition. It could lead to the ill and drugged into thinking it was the end of times or if they followed certain rituals they would be immortal and give up the fight to live.

On this occasion I agree with Philo. Reading the Bible, regardless of the circumstances [for an adult person] is a personal choice. And what you make of it is up to you.

When I visit the doctor's surgery, I look through womens' magazines so that I can do the cryptic crosswords. Whilst I am flicking through looking for the crossword, I try not to be distracted by the romantic, body image and psychological problems, complete with eye-catching photos, of a strange assortment of celebrity and foreign royalty figures, lest it should adversely affect my mental state.

Boaz,

I don’t find it at all strange that you might delight in genealogies, or the human details that might be attached to such lists that others might find… hmmm.. not that interesting. The popularity of genealogical websites attests to something almost universal. The desire to know “who am I?” by asking “who did I come from, what did they do, and who begat them?” is probably hardwired into the brain, I reckon.

Speaking of which, my own parents spent a year or so teaching in Kuching in 1957, or thereabouts. My guess is that there probably weren’t all that many Christian missionary types from Australia in Sarawak at the time. Perhaps you knew each other. I’m guessing this is roughly the time you were there. If you like, I’ll ask if they remember you. If David Boaz isn’t the name you went under then, you can contact me at schmoof55@yahoo.co.uk, if you like.

Regards,

Why are Christians so intent on pursuing a political agenda? Instead of trophy hunting to gain brownie points with a non-existent god which Christians know nothing about anyway- to somehow be magically converted into an immortal upon death - why not reject Christian values and do something for the community for nothing in return.
Throw away your religious hat and put on a hat of a citizen and work for the community. Instead of placing propaganda next to those stressed by injury and disease in hope of recruiting reinforcement for a superstition, why not start or work for a hospital library and work for the wellbeing of others rather than to use them to convince yourself you are saved (immortal)?

West,
You are so ignorant of what Christians actually do in community. Placing bibles in hospitals is one small act done by a small group of sucessfull business men who receive hundreds of encouraging letters from patients, on what the Bible meant to them during their time in hospital.

Have you ever visited St Vincents, Anglicare, Wesley Mission, Salvation Army etc etc. You might be surprised if you were only informed. These charities also actually run hospitals. One of the most highly respected Hospitals in Sydney is the Sydney Adventist in Wahroonga.

Philo I am not addressing what some Christians do in the community ( a tiny minority work for selected communities) I am addressing why Christians do work in the community when they do. To be Christian is to devote ones life to becoming immortal by appeasing their idol. Christians have no god , so the next best thing is to convince others to believe so as to make god seem real. All community work done by Christians is politically motivated and insincere. This is why Christians cant do anything out of honest compassion for others but as judgementally and politically loaded excersises with strings attached. All the organisations you listed are cynical political organisations that only help with strings attached. I am suggesting Christians who truley wish to help others should leave god under the bed and join the citizens of this country and do great real works and forget god politics.

My spirituality is earth based. When I stayed in hospital for week last year, there was a small Christian bible in the draw next to my bed. Was I offended? No, it did not bother me at all. It is not of my belief but it is there for those who do wish to read it. Why should I hinder with them.

A nurse noticed my spirituality listed and asked me if I would like the book removed but I told that it can stay for the next person as it doesn't bother me at all. Sadly, the world has gone so mad that they removed it anyway for political correctness for me. If I did not want it there, I would have said so when they asked me.

People, if you don't want to read it, don't. You are not being forced to read it at gun point so why whine about it?

I suppose part of it is the assumption everybody believes in God.To me the bible has the same sentiment as Mein Kampf its all about justifying one group of people dominating another. I think you are right maybe I focus too much on those who Christians persecute and not respect their divine right to persecute others as clearly they Gods unto themselves.
With all this reflexivitey I am still not convinced. Why dont we impartially test if spiritual material does not offend people, we should try a pilot program with placing the satanic apochrapha next to hospital beds , start with the smallest spiritual minority and work our way up. Sorry to offend you devil worshippers I meant to write Satanic Apochrypha.

@West.
As I said when I started this thread, I am a freedom of choice person. I sometimes disagree with some of the openly religious posters when we're discussing such things as abortion and gay rights, but I do agree with a person's right to hold a religious/philosophical belief and don't try to denigrate them over this.

As an analogy, if you were in hospital and it was my job to look after your non-medical requirements, if you expressed a wish for any legally available reading matter, then I would do my best to provide it. I would not be judgemental if your choice of literature did not match mine. I would generally regard it as none of my business what you wanted to read.

If your choice seemed to me to be medically or psychologically unusual for a person in your known or suspected medical/psychological condition, then I may seek the advice of a suitably qualified person. Not to deny you your choice, but because I may feel that I am not suitably qualified to handle what seemed to be an unusual, possibly health related situation.

I think that you may be suggesting that the Bible may not be suitable reading for people who may be approaching death. From the point of view of a Christian, it may be the best possible choice at a time like that. I would hope that most psychiatrists would see it that way too, even those who are confirmed atheists. Peace of mind in a time of extreme stress is a wonderful thing. Get it from drugs or get it from the literature of your choice, just get it if you can.

Rex of course people should have choice. To place an occult tale such as the Bible next to a hospital bed is not giving a person choice it is simply placed in the hope that a person is so derranged by pain that they can be conned into believing in the particular brand god.The presence of the Bible does not install confidence in me. Is the darkage superstition of Christianity the ethic of the hospital? What if a doctor is Christian? I certainly could never trust a Christian doctor. What does the bible say about a place? will they try and treat with spells (Prayer)? Will they burn me as a witch because I lived next door to lesbians? Why not place pictures of kittens or puppies , waterfalls , or a reading list giving the choice of many books? Christian concern for others is fake and placing bibles is a veiled attempt at recruiting the vulnerable.

West,
Many of our leading surgeons are Christian, are you going to deny them treatment of you when you are in serious trouble. Yes they may pray for alertness, wisdom and care before and while in surgeory. They are not indifferent nor casual about your treatment, because you are an atheist; nor are they most carefull just to convert you.

You assume you know all the motives of Christians - that they are doing things just for personal reward. I see you are very familiar with the selfish motivations of others and assume that with this inner knowledge you practise this same motivation, "What's in it for me?"

Philo what 'leading" surgeon is a Christian. Honestly I would like to be warned so I will never take the risk. I cannot trust anybody who believes in miracles and demons to provide appropriate health care. Diagnosis is a process of science, it is determined by empirical evidence. Knowledge is accumulated and tested, defunct or supported. To believe in God a person must deny truth and relate everything back to the ego. God does not exist outside of the believers mind. For a surgeon with that level of self obsession it is alarming that he would put a knife to a person, what if demons or gargoyles crawl out of the incision.He can afford to be sloppy because miracles (magic) will fix mistakes. What if God guides him? According to the Bible God is completely ignorant of even basic biology.

To respond to you Philo , I obviously will be selfish to a point. The difference is when I help people it is sincere, I have had nothing personal to gain from anybody I have helped other than the satisfaction that they were no longer in crisis or a job such as research was being done. Yes I stand to gain reciprocity from family, friends and neighbours but that is how our community functions and I never ever have thought of repayment when helping anybody. I believe in freedom , my help is free. If you care to read the Bible or Quran or go and listen to a sermon helping others is all about gaining brownie points with your idol. Regardless placing Bibles next to hospital beds is not helping others , it is an advertising campaign. It proves my point that Christians attempt to pass off their corruption of conversion as helping others.

West,
The highly respected heart surgeon whom you might recognise - Dr Chan was a devout Christian. You talk such nonsence as "what if demons or gargoyles crawl out of the incision". Louis Pasteur clarified such views; the living beings coming out of the infection were not demon spirits but are bacteria that can be destroyed by heat, water or medication. That the ancients deduced disease was caused by unseen creatures is not too far fetched, it is just they did not have knowlege of reality.

Belief in spirit beings is not a monotheistic Christian World view is is a polytheistic primitive superstitious view. In Christianity there are no such beings as such views were denounced by Christ. The ancient Roman world believed in such, but Jesus assisted the superstitious to believe hey were free from such, by stating all power resides in the Creator.

Aside from all the occult rituals and magic evocation undertaken in all churches , the magic tricks of god and jesus. I wonder if you would explain your view to the multitudes of Pentecostals and Baptists and those who get up at 4am to watch TV evangilists who follow the teachings of David Eike and believe non-christians are lizard people who creep out at night and devour sleeping Christians and that the world is run by a 6 member committee in Luxemburg answering only to satan, controlling our every move through bar codes. Or perhaps address the Catholics that believe in such occult phantoms as saints. Or even the looneys who believe in demonic posession and exorcism?

Westy,

Perhaps your hostility is due to some misconceptions about Christians. I might be able to clarify some things for you.

You have heard that or heard things that make you believe that:

1. "Will they burn me as a witch because I lived next door to lesbians?"
2. "I cannot trust anybody who believes in miracles and demons to provide appropriate health care."
3. "God does not exist outside of the believers mind."
4. "For a surgeon ...He can afford to be sloppy because miracles (magic) will fix mistakes."
5. "According to the Bible God is completely ignorant of even basic biology."
6. "Regardless placing Bibles next to hospital beds is not helping others , it is an advertising campaign."
7. "Pentecostals and Baptists ...believe non-christians are lizard people who creep out at night and devour sleeping Christians..."
8. Catholics that believe in such occult phantoms as saints.

What you have heard are myths.

With regard to 1 Christians aren't into witch burning and having female homosexual neighbours was never an indicia of those who rebelled against the Church and went on a witch burning foray.

With regard to 2 people like Dr Chan have proved to be very capable physicians. There is good reason to trust them based on their track record and expertise.

With regard to 3 it is only about 2000 years ago that God was in the flesh on earth bringing people back to life. He definitely exists.

With regard to 4 Christian surgeons are highly unlikely to have that belief.

With regard to 5 the Bible indicates that God has knowledge of every hair on your head. He is the creator according to the Bible.

With regard to 6 could you consider it possible that some people are already Christians and may like to read the Bible?

With regard to 7 that belief would be incredibly unusual in those denominations.

With regard to 8 Catholics don't believe in occult phantoms called saints. Saints are just good Christians in the Catholic belief.

I hope this helps.

Mjpb

With regard to 1 Christians can only witch burn if it is part of their beief system. Christians did burn children , women and men for hundreds of years therefore witch burning or the ethnic cleansing of others which witch burning is fundamental to the belief of Christians. The comment was tongue in cheek , I was referring to Family First who launched themselves calling to burn lesbians as witches in the name of Jesus.

With regard to 2 I would consider Dr Chan an exception. Of course some people will not let their delusions affect their professional conduct. Ironically you are saying when it comes to application of beliefs they have no place in the real world. The belief in god is like alcoholism , an alcoholic doctor may hide his addiction successfully but like religion , when alcoholism affects the doctor disaster follows. There was a case in the Flinders Medical Centre in South Australia last year where a doctor refused treatment to a patient and prayed instead.

With regard to 3 it is only about 2000 years ago that God was in the flesh on earth bringing people back to life. He definitely exists. That’s a big statement wheres your proof? If god exists why do you speak for god? , why can’t god speak for himself? Why have a Bible if god exists? The cult of Christianity is just a rehashed form of the Roman military cult of Chrisos. There is no evidence for the existence of Jesus at all. The first non- superstitious mention of Jesus is from Tacitus around 115 AD. As for God , Jehova was invented well within written history.

With regard to 4 Christian surgeons are highly unlikey to follow David Eike. You have to speak to more Christians , they have a lot of crazy demonological fantasy theories , not only from David Eike but from all sorts. Watch Christian TV and listen to their radio sometimes , Christianity is bursting with all sorts of crazies preaching everything from shadow haunting to rapture

Mjpb

With regard to 5 the Bible indicates that God has knowledge of every hair on your head. No - you are simply wrong. Geographically, historically, biologically and even anthropologically the Bible is wrong. The Bible is as only as knowledgeable as Ben Sira who wrote it to stop the Jews fighting. The Old Testament even reflects the awareness of Ben Sira who studied in Greece. The new testament is even worst as it demonstrates very limited awareness of Jerusalem and describes everything from the perspective of those who must have lived in Western Turkey. Even the crucifixion doesn’t follow Roman law for a petty criminal like Jesus to be brought before Pilate something Constantine should have picked up upon. Record wise Pilate never mentioned Jesus never reported Jesus to Rome. Odd for the son of God to slip under the radar.

With regard to 6 Yes but why are Christians more important than everybody else?

With regard to 7 that belief would be incredibly unusual in those denominations. Just spend time with them yes David Eike is more a messiah to the Pentecostals than to Baptists. This is possibly an age thing as Baptists are more often old and Pentecostals are especially immature.

With regard to 8 Catholics don't believe in occult phantoms called saints. I disagree. Catholics hold a cult of patron saints. Catholics believe the Saint is magic, just like Jesus and god. Saints are just as ridiculous as possession , excorcism , miracles or any other type of magic.

I hope this helps.

West,
Pilate did write to Caesar that he had Jesus put to death. [See: Lost Books of the Bible} The records do exist of the events and Caesar sent a posse to Jerusalem to bring Pilate to Rome for questioning, but he committed suicide because he knew what his fate would be for putting an innocent man to death. Pilate's wife recognised the character of Jesus and warned Pilate about this step.

With regard the New Testament it has been used to identify places in modern archeology. So your claim it was written in Turkey is purely your immagination.

I would like to write a lot more here, but am leaving for two weeks.

Absolute nonsense Philo. What you are claiming is simply lies made up by various Church based organisations. A good rule of thumb is that books that are advertised on Evangelical TV or radio programs or in churches are nothing but total lies and propaganda pieces.

But you do make an interesting illustration. It seems the only arguments supporting Jesus are based on complete lies. If Jesus actually existed why do Christians have to lie to make it appear as if Jesus actually existed?

Ironically I would have thought lying is a sin but then Christianity has become lie dependent.

Tacitus was the first person outside of the occult of Christianity to mention Jesus. Even then he only says they worshiped their founder Jesus. He only explains why Nero blamed Christians for the fire of Rome. Interestingly at that stage the Cult of Christianity was a very decadent cult it is highly possible Christians did start the fires. It is only Suetonius who claimed that Nero started the fire but there is conjecture this was based on political bias. Pilate never mentioned Jesus, Herod’s records never mentioned Jesus. There is no mention of Jesus at the time Jesus was meant to exist. It is suspiciously coincidental that the story of Jesus is very similar to the story of Chrisos the deity of the Roman soldier.

Don’t believe anything you hear in Church or Christian media , it is just fiction to reinforce myth. Without Myth theologians and other types of conmen will be unemployed.

West,
You may be convincd you have all knowledge but you are just an uninformed antagonist. Following Jesus is not merely about believing some events of history, it is rather identifying his character and building relationships on the character and principles he demonstrated.

Did Jesus personally and explictly tell you that Philo or did you make it up?