You are a usually a very reasonable poster Vanilla and your response there proves that. My comments were only directed at your dismissal of the discussion. What you perceive as nastiness, I see as 'passionate' in the sense that people feel strongly about these issues. I did not take offence at Foxy's jokes, though i thought they were a little one-sided ;)

Dear Antiseptic,

Whether you believe me or not, my jokes were not intentionally meant to derail this discussion.

All I can do is apologise. Which I have done.

I accept in good faith your explanations, perhaps you'd kindly extend the same courtesy to me and let's simply move on.

You may be interested in the website I gave in my previous post - It deals with the topic of discrimination against men.

Vanilla, "Jeez. Firstly, R0bert, I didn't ignore your post." - you've lost me, did I say something rude to you? I've been back over previous posts and found that I'd not seen one of yours early on but not spotted anything which made me think I'd suggested that you ignored me. If I've said something that sounds like I've attacked you I'll happily try and rephrase or retract but I can't think what. You are one of my favourite posters (even when I disagree with something you have said).

Cheers
R0bert

Foxy:"my jokes were not intentionally meant to derail this discussion."

Fair enough, I accept that wasn't your intent.

Foxy:"You may be interested in the website I gave in my previous post - It deals with the topic of discrimination against men."

Yes, it's a pretty exhaustive list. Do you have any comments on it?

The common thread, ISTM in all the examples given is that the discrimination has grown out of an exaggerated determination to protect women, while men are expected to look out for themselves, albeit in a legislative environment which often removes the possibility of doing so. That determination has always been there. I can remember my Dad sitting me down and telling me "decent men don't swear in front of the ladies". Of course, the "ladies" were quite happy to swear, but "decent men" had to restrain themselves.

What is most disturbing of all is that the most extreme examples of male misbehaviour are used to justify sweepingly restrictive laws that target all males, while female misbehaviour is minimised and rarely accorded any special legislative or bureaucratic recognition. At the same time, activities and services for women are specifically promoted, while those for men are rarely to be seen and when they do appear, are frequently targetted by "feminists" as discriminatory.

Where does it end?

Antiseptic I somewhere got the opinion you were pretty hard core chip on your shoulder anti-feminist, but that last post was a very well expressed and quite convincing analysis.

Dear Antiseptic,

I was brought up to be docile, to have pleasing behaviour. I was told not to be competitive. I was told that charm and attractiveness would receive more approval than intelligence. I was allowed some "tomboyish" behaviour, but on the whole - it was discouraged.

You, on the other hand, as you indicated were taught to "act like a man" in other words, to suppress your emotions and particularly your tears.

Well, as we're learning the statistics tell the story. Compared to women, men have a higher suicide rate, a higher rate for severe mental disorders and alcoholism rate. Men commit over 80 percent of all serious crimes and constitute over 90 percent of prison inmates. They are far more likely than women to suffer stress-related diseases such as ulcers, hypertension, and asthma. The bleakest statistic is life expectancy: the average male dies seven years sooner than the average female.

Where will it end? I can't pretend to have all the answers. All I can hope for is that men and women will explore a wide variety of possible roles. True liberation from the restrictions of gender would mean that all possible options would be open and equally acceptable for both sexes.

Then a person's individual human qualities, rather than his or her biological sex, would be the primary measure of that person's worth and achievement.