I am extremely disappointed that the Labor government continues to support the School Chaplaincy Program. When Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door I am free to talk to them or send them away. However, a schoolchild does not have that freedom to reject a person in authority. The School Chaplaincy Program involves coercion to hear the missionising of a particular faith.

I think religion should be taught in the school system as it is part of our culture. However, indoctrination in a particular religion and teaching what different faith communities believe and practice are two very different matters. On the back of the book, "The Chaplaincy Phenomena", is a statement by Duncan Brown, former CEO of Scripture Union Queensland which has supplied many the school chaplains. Brown states:

"School Chaplaincy is a feeder ministry - it is a way of directly targeting potential Christians and bringing them to God and into the church environment. If we don't spend time investing in this ministry now, our churches will suffer the consequences of an ageing population base unable to support its initiatives."

Duncan Brown makes it quite clear that he regards the School Chaplaincy Program as a missionary effort. Equating this effort with "bringing them to God" ignores the fact that non-Christians such as Jews and Muslims have already been brought to God.

The School Chaplaincy Program has no place in a pluralistic democratic society. I am extremely disappointed in the Labor government for continuing a Howard initiative of this kind. Government subsidising of a missionary effort to a captive population of school children should be stopped.

Dear David,

I thought that this was a voluntary program.

It was up to the schools to request it - and how it was going to be used.

Am I wrong in thinking this?

Any christian teaching or preaching is good. I remember with fondness the scripture we had at Ballina High in the 60's. We got to know about the high road and the low road of life and looking back I wished I had listened more closely. Nowadays Im a born again christian and live on that high road and have learned much about what those grand old scripture teachers were on about. The Power is in Gods Word and the preaching of it unto the salvation of souls. Maybe as the years unfold some of you folks will see the huge events the Bible spoke about, even some 2,000 or so years ago, coming to pass you will be thankful for the comfort the Bible and christian fellowship gives.
All of history is being wrapped up. Check out signs that we are in the end times.

The government put the program in place to cater for all walks of life and beliefs and its not mandatory for anyone to stay or listen.

I am strongly against it and in my opinion, all religion's should come with a warning label on it.

Love comes from the parents and not a book.
Right and wrong comes from the parents and not a book.
All humans are born with love and so do other forms of life.etc Dog, cat, and many more.

None of my children believe and I have let them look at both sides of the story, and judge for themselves. They are happy and productive and no god was need.

So please tell me what the plus IS.

Lets set the record straight here..

SCHOOL CHAPLAINS DO NOT have any compulsory aspects to their work.

They are there as an 'available' resource for spiritual guidance IF.....a child requests it..and ALSO they are there simply to be a reference point IF....the child requests it....

David F.. please get facts straight before trying to portray Christians in schools as some kind of predatorial religious pariah.

NOTE also..they are there as a result of our democratic system at work.
IF you wish to change that, then feel free to try, but whatever you do, DON'T do it with lies or misrespresentations.. thankx

Dear Boaz and Foxy,

The school chaplaincy is voluntary, but politicians such as those in my shire of Moreton Bay put pressure on schools to accept the programs. Boaz, 'predatory pariahs' are your words. I merely called them missionaries as that is how they have characterised themselves. It is good for children to have a figure in school that they can feel free to come to. However, I wish Christians would try to imagine how they would feel if that figure were atheist, Jewish, Muslim or other than Christian and were committed to spreading their viewpoint. The public schools are not just for Christians. They are for all people in our society. Those who wish sectarian education and sectarian authority figures have many non-public schools to choose from. As far as Christianity being equated with something good people of other convictions equate those convictions with the good.

Boazy, you know full well that churches treat chaplaincy and RE programs as outreach opportunities.

You countinue to astound me with your willingness to distort and misrepresent to try and gain advantage for your own faith.

Not as bad as some of your fellow fundies but if your god is a god of truth then you have no part in him.

R0bert

The School Chaplaincy program was a naked ideological policy intitiative of the erstwhile Howard government, and should be given the boot ASAP - to be replaced by properly funded, resourced and qualified secular counsellors. The Scripture Union quotation says it all, really: for those of us who don't want our kids exposed to homegrown religious missionaries, the chaplaincy program is simply unacceptable because it is already being abused by Christian proselytisers.

Of course Boazy approves of it - he's one of them, after all.

It is a great shame that their are not many more 'missionaries' in our indigenous communities. Under them there was far less abuse, less alcohol and many were productively employed. Now under secular rule we have epidemics of drunkenness, child abuse and a complete welfare dependency. Well done secular worshippers. Clear fruit of failed secular humanism. The same is happening in our schools. No wonder private and home schooling is flouring.

Runner wrote:

"It is a great shame that their [sic] are not many more 'missionaries' in our indigenous communities. Under them there was far less abuse, less alcohol and many were productively employed. Now under secular rule we have epidemics of drunkenness, child abuse and a complete welfare dependency. Well done secular worshippers. Clear fruit of failed secular humanism. The same is happening in our schools. No wonder private and home schooling is flouring [sic]."

The missionaries trained females to be domestics and males to be stockmen. The opportunities of Aborigines were limited. In addition an alien faith was forced upon them. The current situation of the Aboriginal communities is in large part due to the destruction of their culture and the prejudice against them by the surrounding culture. Much of the destruction of their culture was the product of the missions.

I have noted the misspellings in the above.

David f, I fully agree with you.
The chaplaincy program is a breach of the separation of church-and-state principle. I hope the program will cause a lot of disputes.
It’s rather selfish of Christian supporters of this program to expect everyone else to fund their religious activities in public schools. Christian families can already use the services at their church if they want spiritual guidance or indoctrination of their children.

Chaplains don’t even necessarily have expertise in counseling; schools are better off employing proper counselors without vested interest or by funding other child protection programs.

Anyone who approves of the chaplaincy program in Christian communities should also be tolerant enough to support imams at schools in Muslim communities.

Yes, I really can't see any justification in not allowing secular counsellors to be funded under the same program.

To those who say the schools are free to take it or leave it, I'd make the point that they're only being offered chaplains - not other alternatives. If there's only one free 'specialist' you can get, and the only option is Christian, that's hardly fair to non Christians, who may want counsellors or heck, even an imam or a zen buddhist.

Tell me boaz, would you support government funded imams visiting schools as well, if they're 'optional' and were, in fact, the only option aside from nothing?

You are right David F and Evolution.
This is extremely disappointing John Winstone Howard, Tony Blair and George Bush are Christian Fundamentalist and unfortunately the Economic Conservative is one too with his mmmmmmmme tooism. Chaplains in Western Australia often do the District Youth Organiser job and give support and help to the youngsters. Government schools should stay secular and the schools should teach all beliefs so that the student can judge for themselves.

david f

I agree. Chaplains have no place in secular education. It's hardly surprising though that a card-carrying Christian like Kevin Rudd sees little need to roll back this particular Howard policy.

"I think religion should be taught in the school system as it is part of our culture."

There's a place for religion to be studied dispassionately and critically if it's relevant to a particular history or social studies unit. With so much to teach in an already overcrowded curriculum though, it's a waste of valuable teaching time to lose half a session each week to regular religious 'education'.

"..indoctrination in a particular religion and teaching what different faith communities believe and practice are two very different matters."

Having listened from the sidelines to many religious education classes over the years, I can assure you they are usually much closer to the former than they are the latter. They are conducted by church volunteers who have an entirely partisan approach. There is much more missionary zeal than there is objective and comparative analysis.

BOAZ_David

"They are there as an 'available' resource for spiritual guidance IF.....a child requests it..and ALSO they are there simply to be a reference point IF....the child requests it...."

The chaplain at the state school I work at takes R.E. classes, runs voluntary lunchtime sessions and conducts whole of school Easter parades and Christmas break-ups, all of which feature a heavy dose of praying and preaching. Not only are the children not 'requesting' this, most of them can't escape it even if they want to. The only ones who can are those whose parents have specifically requested that they not take part, and the price they pay for this privilege is exclusion from the group.

Unfortunately while students are learning Religious Education they are not learning the three R's. Our children go to school to learn English and Language other than English. Mathematics Science, Environmental Studies, Art, Design Technology, etc. While they are learning Superstition, Bible Stories Fables that was made by man they are not learning basic learning to help them in life. While Students are being taught Religioun they are not learning the things that matter such as current affairs and politics that can shape their lives. Most religious people vote for conservative parties beacause they are not aware or conscious of world affairs. Chaplains are certaily not needed in schools in many ways they become a hinderance. Howard introduced this because he was pushing his own and Tony Abbott and Kevin Andrews agenda.

Bronco. Well said. Christian self rightness has to be toned down. I cant believe these people, they get into everything for own agenda.

Schools are for learning and Sundays are for praying. I would be much happier if they would stick to the program.

David F is a "stirrer"..He is expressing an opinion to get a discussion going and his premise is what he's gathered about the subject.Was it Oscar Wilde who said "Without agitators our civilization would not have advanced" We are getting a range of opinions but not much tolerance of the actual effects of the program.A teacher told me that the kids don't take much notice of the Chaplain anyway. He is under guidelines that make him merely an avuncular figure that a child can ask to speak to if something is troubling them.At the school it is up to the local Administration to appoint a "Chappie" and if you read the Goverment Website there is the choice available to appoint a Secular Chaplain.Please don't make this a " Christian versus Others" opportunity for rancour.The teachers are mainly "Ladies" and speak to them if you're concerned about your children.The Labor Party will be criticised soon for "secularizing the program" politicians are being asked to be less partisan and be constructive in our interests.How about doing that ourselves!

Secular chaplain? A 'chaplain' is a religious role.
All the definitions I found were religious in their meaning, save for one, which was on a christian website.

Scrap chaplains, make it counsellors. Failing that, make it a representative of any chosen religion.

Better yet, scrap the whole damn thing, and pump the money into other aspects of education.

Dear Diploman,

You are correct. I am a stirrer. I am an expatriate American living in Australia. The separation between church and state is under threat in my home country although it is still illegal for tax money to go to support a religious school. I was taken aback to find tax money in Australia went to support religious schools and further shocked by the school chaplaincy program.

I think the US has a higher percentage of religious people than Australia has. Separation of church and state is beneficial for both church and state. It gives the church greater freedom to act as the conscience of the state since it owes the state nothing. It gives the state greater freedom to act for the benefit of all Australians since it is not under obligation to any sect or belief.

Creationist are right. God was created by man in the dark dark ages because many issues could not be explained at the time. Science now proves the reasons why these events happened which religious fables explained were miracles. Ignorance at that time considered an asteroid hitting the earth was an act of god, sush is the story of sodom and gomorrah. EVE (Women) were created from the rib of Adam. Inhabitants did not understand Thunder and Lightning, Eruption of Volcanoes, An Earthquake, A Tsunami so they made up their own stories.
We may still be superstitious today by not walking under ladders but we are now intelligent enough not to believe in Witches, Father Christmas, and fairies at the bottom of the garden. Unfortunately many people are fooled by the Pope,, and pray for the world to be a better place. Then they go out and vote for Blair, Bush and Howard so that they can exterminate innocent people with agent orange, depleted uranium, cluster bombs, While people believe in religioun they will never ever learn.

Bronco! It looks like commsence is a gift after all. Well done.

Commonsense! Evolution! Please use your spell-check. You idiot. lol

Evolution Commonsense, At School I was top of the class in Religous Education and Spelling. Sincerely believed stronger than Boazy. My Headmaster asked me do you believe in god ? What a silly question everybody does the whole school does in assembly. He said well done please take my advice in the library there are three other books other than the Bible. He wrote them down "Iron Heel" Author Jack London. "Ragged Trousered Philanthropist" Robert Tressell and "The German Ideology" Marx and Engels. After reading them it was like giving up smoking Evolution just put it down to a typing error it covers a mulitude of sins.

Just make sure you keep your workshop clean, and dont forget, that life is what you make it.

Funny old world.

Funny old world, You are right as long as you never cheat on anyone and believe in sharing and giving. Religoun is not the be and end all non religous folks are probably more caring than anyone. Oops about time I cleaned out my workshop. Chaplains cannot do any harm it was Howard that did the harm with so much irrepairable damage to Australian Society he will always be remembered as the infamous john Howard with his dogma that was Thatcherism at it's worst.

David and Robert

Dave said:

"However, I wish Christians would try to imagine how they would feel if that figure were atheist, Jewish, Muslim or other than Christian and were committed to spreading their viewpoint."

DAve..where have you been for the past few decades mate? Every DAY our children are subjected to an 'atheist point of view' rammed down their throats and minds by teachers. Puh-lease don't give me the 'how would you feel' thing mate.

The 'default' position of education is godless. Just like you would not incarcerate or condemn all teachers when one sexually molests a child, you cannot also condemn all Chaplains if one gets a bit ideologically adventurous and explains the faith to a child.
But the clearly understood rule that the chaplain we have supported goes by is that it is NOT an opportunity for surepticious evangelism.

If you were aware of the transformed children at the local primary school resulting from the chaplaincy program you would re-think your opening post. And by 'transformed' I don't mean they suddenly got 'saved' or 'saw the light' in the religious sense, its simply that a caring person has TIME for them.... and can discuss family and personal issues in a pastoral way. If a child has questions about faith, they can be taken on board just like if they have a question about science or marriage break up.

Boaz you just described what a school counsellor does with your statement: "its simply that a caring person has TIME for them.... and can discuss family and personal issues in a pastoral way."

And if a child has a question about faith, they can go to their local church or ask their parents.

School counsellors are nondenominational - therefore not biased the way a chaplain might be. They are also professionally trained to counsel children - not all chaplains are. Yet funding is restricted to providing chaplains only. Do you really believe that a chaplain is appropriate for Jewish or Islamic schools? Or secular schools which are a diverse mix of all creeds?

This is called discrimination, Boaz.

As for yet another one of your spurious claims: "Every DAY our children are subjected to an 'atheist point of view' rammed down their throats and minds by teachers."

No, Atheism is not taught as a subject at any school.

Evidence Boaz?

However, atheism could be taught as part of an overview of all religions; then atheism would be relevant. Given the diverse religious beliefs throughout the world, a curriculum including discussion of all religions would be of great benefit to children giving them a greater understanding of the reasons for discrimination based on religion.

Boaz wrote:

"DAve..where have you been for the past few decades mate? Every DAY our children are subjected to an 'atheist point of view' rammed down their throats and minds by teachers. Puh-lease don't give me the 'how would you feel' thing mate."

The name is David, not Dave. I have a developed id.

Please cite when and where atheism has been forced down anyone's throat. I repeat. "How would you feel" because you don't seem able to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

Chop the Chaplains!

BD, my mission is not to give you a hard time and I try to be fair but I remember that you created a thread about how unacceptable it was that Muslims wanted to build an Islamic school. How can you then find it totally acceptable to set Chaplains on the loose with their spiritual axes in secular schools?
How would you feel if the government’s choice had been Imams instead of Chaplains?

Anyway, a child should have the right to be counselled by a neutral professional but a chaplain cannot DO default neutral.
It’s highly unlikely that, for example, a chaplain will give neutral advice to a teenage boy who is struggling with his sexuality, i.e. he is discovering that he is homosexual.
It’s highly unlikely that a chaplain will give neutral advice to a young teenage girl who found out that she is pregnant.
BTW, neutral does not mean atheist.

David f “I was taken aback to find tax money in Australia went to support religious schools and further shocked by the school chaplaincy program.”
Keep stirring, it’s very hard or impossible for me to accept that our tax money goes to support religious actions in so-called secular schools. I am, as you are, disappointed that Rudd hasn’t dumped this idea of school chaplains.
The Australian government has used our tax money to fund churches and gave millions of tax dollars towards the Pope’s visit this year.
There is not much that can legally be done about it; in Australia. As far as I know, there is not even a proper constitutional separation of church and state, so it seems.

Dear Celivia,

Tom Frame, chief chaplain of the Australian armed forces, wrote "Church and State" which contains, in addition to his thoughts on the matter, a history of church-state relations. He mentions on page 49 a time when it was illegal for Australian tax funds to go to religious institutions including schools:

"It was not until the passage of separate Acts in each colony - South Australia in 1851; Queensland in 1860, New South Wales in 1862. Tasmania in 1869; Victoria in 1870 and Western Australia in 1890 - that government assistance to church activities, including education, ended."

Since there a precedent for such legislation we could lobby to see it reinstated.

Celivia:"The Australian government has used our tax money to fund churches and gave millions of tax dollars towards the Pope’s visit this year."

The last couple of Governments have chosen to use the organisational power of the churches to provide social welfare resources that should be the province of Government. The Howard Government did so as a cynical exercise in vote-buying and cost-shifting and it was so successful in gaining the support of the dim-witted religious sheep like Boaz and Gibo, et al, that it will continue for the foreseeable future. How do you reckon Labor would have fared in an election if they had stated a policy of disentanglement of church and state? The howls of condemnation from the pulpit would have been loud, long and entirely self-justificatory.

Meanwhile, the poor have to go cap-in-hand to Mission Australia (otherwise known as the Catholic church), the Salvation Army, the Uniting Church, even bloody Hillsong for God's sake if they want access to basic Government services, while the hierarchy of those organisations drive in tax-free cars, live in tax-free housing and draw down stipends that they pay only minimal personal tax on. The last thing this country needs is more bloody religious proselytising entrenched in the schools.

Bronco, you can believe in that.

All the best.

Hi David f,
“Since there a precedent for such legislation we could lobby to see it reinstated.”
That sounds hopeful.
I just read a review of that book by Frame and, from what I understand, Frame (from an Anglican perspective of course) says that there is no danger that Australia will be dominated by fundies because the Australian constitutional arrangement balances religion and state.
I suppose it depends on how one defines domination.
Fundies have certainly influenced society more than enough.

I’ve been quite confused about Church and State Separation; if I look at the US with their Wall of Separation, I don’t see that this separation act has provided much protection from religious zealots. Both the US and Australian societies are affected by religious bullies.
What Australia desperately needs to be protected against religious prejudice is proper functioning of the Religious Anti-Discrimination Boards; perhaps then we’d have a better chance of maintaining neutrality.

Did you see this yesterday's article in The Age?
http://tinyurl.com/3m6d6e
Apparently, Vic. Education Minister Bronwyn Pike thinks that Catholic schools will be better off when the public system forges stronger partnerships with Catholic schools. If Catholic schools can operate as public schools and agree to a new set of education principles, they can get extra funding.
Even though Pike has a Christian background, I am a little surprised at Pike’s suggestion because as far as I know, she was one of the few who was opposed to the Chaplaincy program.
Australia doesn’t have an established church so it makes no sense that a Minister can even think of singling out Catholic schools for special treatment.

Hi Antiseptic,
I fully agree with everything you are saying. Reading over your post to be reminded of all this religious meddling is like mental torture!

boaz: "DAve..where have you been for the past few decades mate? Every DAY our children are subjected to an 'atheist point of view' rammed down their throats and minds by teachers. Puh-lease don't give me the 'how would you feel' thing mate."

He should, and has given you the 'how would you feel' thing. I'm glad he just did. He should do it over and over until you 'get' it.

Nothing is being rammed down your throat, boaz. It's called neutrality. So yes, this should most definitely be put to you.

The 'godless' position, is neutrality. It's not promoting any particular viewpoint. If there is to be religion in schools, let those children go to private schools with a religious bent.

Under no circumstances, should any particular faith be allowed in public schools - it is indeed, proselytising by stealth.

The 'no religion' viewpoint is not just another religion, boaz. Just because those who are locked in a religious interpretation of the world, particularly fundamentalist ones, can't see it any other way, doesn't make it so.

Teachers are in Scools to teach.
To teach Facts Religioun is not fact it is a belief.
Howard has put in funding for Chaplains to do counselling. If a Chaplain is a qualified counsellor then that is acceptable if that Chaplain is not qualified then that is unacceptable. All teachers have to be qualified. Government Schools have to be Secular as relioun only confuses a student. If Barrabas died on the cross alongside Jesus Christ then that is History. The bible is nothing more than an inaccurate History Book which teaches us an excellent account of the Roman Empire. I suggest that if any of you who have made a contribution in the forum that you go back to your political party that you are member of and place this motion on your agenda. That this Branch calls on the Fedral Government to cease the funding towards Chaplains within all Australian Schools and that the funding be used to improve teachers pay, maintenance in Government Schools that has been starved from Public Schools over the last 11.5 years. we so move.