Hi Steele and kartiya.....

glad to see this subject is bringing out some interesting perspectives.

What I observe though, is both of you have focused on the 'mention' of seditious movements and then blamed 'me' for some kind of 'agenda' :)

Lets get some "clear" thinking going here.
1/ Free speech is not something I'm opposed to, I absolutely support it for you and for me.. by this time you should know this.

2/ The PART of 'free' speech which I am opposed to is that which directly threatens the Government! and the vast majority of people.
The concept behind the nation of Aztlan is very seditious relative to the present government and prevailing culture.

I cannot disagree that THAT prevailing government and culture was established through brutality, invasion, theft of land,ill treatment of natives etc etc.. I totally admit that.
In fact..I suppor the right of any person to PUBLICALLY say all that.
I feel that to say such is quite justified. I'd even feel that IF the aggrieved people 'could' get up and re-take it, then that would be a historic response just as valid as the original one which took it from them. (no, those monks in Tibet are not pesky, they are hero's)

But here's the problem. If ur going to say such things, make sure you can back it up...or.. the obvious may happen.*KerrrrUNCH*

Being as I am, a part of the 'new' society of Australia, the one which shaped the nation as it is, I must unquestionably be alert to any movement which seeks to undermine it. The best I can offer to indigenous people is.. "if you can't beat em, join em" There might be ways of providing for elements of restoration of land, but this could never be done in such a way as to endanger the security of the nation as it now is.

All I'm saying, is this. "To discuss" various movements, and to highlight dangers or even just 'perceived' dangers in them, is not hate speech... it is free speech and constructive or protective dialog.

....continued.

Hate speech is not about 'mentioning' facts or trends, but it is rallying people to actively despise and punish and harm those who are being discussed.
I advocate nothing more than responsibly selective immigration and careful application of anti terror laws against people who parade down Sydney streets with their little 5 yr old brother (or son) on their shoulders teaching them to say "F*_k Yahood" over and over. Now THAT...is hate speech.

EXAMPLE. I'd prefer to avoid the mention of Islam here, but I've just received a message from a Muslim on youtube with whom I have been having a very serious debate.

To him, I claimed "Islam permits child abuse" and supported this claim by saying that surah 65:4 permits "marriage" and consumation with pre-pubescent girls.

His reaction was predictable: (selected quotes from his messages)

1/ "Your lack of respect for Muhammad(saws) is nothing but pure ignorance."

2/ WAKE UP MATE; ARE YOU INTOXICATED?.......THERE IS NO WORD "CHILDERN" IN 65:4 (different Muslim)

3/ However inshaAllah your words are only as heavy as a twig, but I will cut these dry twigs with my words, like a sharp sword. Hence forth your pathetic weapon will show its true reflection from my word, weaker than what it appears. No more than a crooked stem. (same one as for quote 1 above)

4/ Lastly (many in between where he claimed I found info from a 'hate site' etc..the usual stuff) he admits as follows:

<<*65:4 permits sexual abuse of pre-pubescent girls.

There is one thing that I want to thank you for, you have opened my eyes to new knowledge in Islam. That is the verse pertaining to the divorce of a non menstruation female.
I asked a scholar, take heed I'm saying scholar whom graduated from the second best Islamic University of Egypt. I showed him this verse and he gratefully admitted that this verse does include a young girl that hasn't reached her period.>>

David ,
I am not going to agree or disagree about your revelations re the Islamic written word .

Just what AZTLAN political policies have to do with young girls is another bit of a Boaz puzzle .

However, some Governments and their leaders ARE to put it simply , "crap"!for a large percentage of those they govern.

Many ordinary folk rely on the sedition of the brave to get some sort of balance back in their countries and lift them up from poverty,early death and despair . That is fine by me .

If we had continued in the Howard , Liberal [not all] and National parties policies and attitudes similar to yours ,we would have sedition by the paddy wagon full.

One way or another they were going to go and yes we are lucky we live in a Democracy-just .

kartiya jim: "Just what AZTLAN political policies have to do with young girls is another bit of a Boaz puzzle"

I came to the conclusion quite some time ago that Boazy's mind doesn't work quite the same way as the minds of those of us who operate by means of rationality and logic. As far as I can tell here, Boazy's trying to set up an analogy whereby he declares that an American ethnic/indigenous nationalist movement is "seditious" and it is therefore reasonable to curtail their freedom of speech while allowing paranoid members of the dominant culture to say anything they like about the minority group in the name of national security.

According to Boazy's convoluted reasoning, this is clearly to be compared with the situation of the Muslim minority in Australia: if some Muslims say something that Boazy deems to be "seditious", then that entitles him to impugn an entire religion based upon his expert interpretation of some verses in their sacred texts.

Or something like that. At least it keeps him off the streets.

Dear David,

I googled, 'What is Aztlan?' and came up with the following site:

http://www.mayorno.com/WholsMecha.html

Which may be of interest to other posters.

It does appear that these Aztlan 'cults' are rapidly extending their influence within California's Hispanic population, particularly among students in the university system. They are anti-American, and
pro - civil disobedience - and live with the false illusion that they are being racially discriminated against because they are Latinos while totally dismissing the idea that maybe it is their ideology that is being discriminated against.

One of their goals is to abolish the border between the U.S. and Mexico - allowing Mexicans free access to the US. Their claims do not separate fact from opinion and political propaganda. Students within
these organisations are taught separatism, victimisation, nationalism, and a complete lack of patriotism towards the United States.

cont'd

David, I'm not sure how the United States should respond to these
'cults.'

If they ban them - their popularity will probably go underground and could increase.

To ignore them is probably equally unwise. The official national symbol of MEChA (Chicano Student Movement - Aztlan) is an eagle holding a machete-like weapon and a stick of dynamite.

I guess it all depends on the size of these 'cults' and how much influence they have within the student movement and the Latino communities...

Any more thoughts?