Ah... Easter... shops full of tinsel-covered chocolate eggs... an ancient tradition of our forbears who celebrated the end of a bleak and hungry winter with a festival to welcome spring. Australians, of course, are not starving and are probably celebrating the end of a heat wave or rain, rather than looking forward to winter. But a bellyful of chocolate might cushion the blow of another interest rate hike.

Christianity puts its own spin on the ancient celebration. Instead of celebrating the ‘death’ of winter and the ‘rebirth’ of spring, Christians celebrate the murder of a god/man on Friday, and his re-birth the following Sunday. And if this isn't miraculous enough, this sacrificial victim is also a ‘scapegoat’.

Instead of sacrificing goats and sheep to keep god happy, Christians sacrificed a living human, so their god would forgive the sins of everyone else!

We should be happy about this, but the morality is troublesome. If someone does an ‘evil’ act, is it ok for the courts to send an innocent man to jail instead? If not, why not? The Christian god did it. It’s scarcely a good example to set children. Wouldn’t it be better for people to take responsibility for their own actions and enjoy the cycles of nature without symbolic sacrificial murder?”

Peter Taylor
Public Relations Team
Atheist Foundation of Australia Inc

Phone: (08) 8835 2269

Website: http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/mediarelease.htm

One trick pony is back in town.

Welcome to the 'drone

Why do you need an Atheist foundation? Its not like you believe in anything.

Dear Peter, providing your real name in this context might be a tad dangerous and potentially costly.

You said "Christians celebrate the murder of".... and I rather think that suggesting a particular class of people 'celebrate murder' is very much to hold them up to 'severe ridicule and public contempt'.

Claiming a class of people 'celebrate murder' is also to incite hatred and revulsion against them.

In Victoria this is illegal and could (should some person decide to sue you) be costly in the extreme under the RRT2001.(Being in WA would not prevent you from being jailed in Vic.)

You should also be aware, that your MOTIVE is irrelevant (section 9 of the Act).... what counts is 'how people feel' about what you say.. do they feel 'vilified' ? Well I sure do, I feel insulted, vilified and held up to public contempt and ridicule.

All you had to do to change that was.. use the word 'execution' or 'death of' rather than 'murder'. Jesus was executed by the State...not murdered in some back alley by muggers.

All that aside. Christians have not placed 'spin' on an existing event. They have SUBstituted the remembrance of Christs sacrifice for us, for a pagan fertility ceremony. Socially and Culturally, the timing is more appropriate, to have that remembrance at the same time as the pagan celebration.

But your title got one thing right.. "Scapegoat".. sus it out.. there is much more in that than you may think.

<<He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 25For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd>>

Peter, you might question the morality of Christs substitutionary death, (and call it murder) but if you had to pay for your own sins, how do you think you would stand in the presense of the Holiness of Almighty God.

The World has gone nuts.

We could all use a little more love, hope, faith
and forgiveness.

Peter

You have misunderstood the central element of Chrostianity - its not that "Christians sacrificed a living human, so their god would forgive the sins of everyone else!" but that God (in human flesh) would sacrifice himself for every person's sins. And in doing so, he beat the power of death and the grave.

Chappy

Easy times... the Atheist Foundation of Australia is there to assist people suffering from bigots.

BOAZ_David: Are you threatening me? Is that legal in the state of Victoria? Execution is simply a diplomatic way of saying judicial murder, and that is what it was called in Australia during debates on ending capital punishment. If you feel insulted, vilified and held up to public contempt and ridicule, then perhaps you should take a hard look at what you believe. The fact remains that you celebrate not only the [judicial] murder of a man, but also his torture beforehand, because you believe his death makes it possible for your sins to be forgiven if you follow certain rituals. My intention wasn’t to insult, merely to point out to rational people the immorality of letting an innocent person take the blame for others. Personally, I prefer to take responsibility for myself and am prepared to accept the consequences of my actions in this, my one and only life. As for his Holiness Almighty God... which of the thousands of gods humans have worshipped are you referring to?

Dear Peter.... I had a sneaking feeling my last post may have evoked a sense of 'offence/outrage' in your court:)

What I hope you will do, is join me in supporting a very serious amendment to the RRT2001 which DOES take 'Motive' into consideration.

Based on the transript from the CTF trial, and the various reasonings and points made by the judge, your first post is without question infringing on the act and would easily provide the basis of a successful complaint, to the EOHRC which could result in you having to fund Media apologies at a rather hefty bill.

You see.. you referred to previous activism during which time the RRT did not exist. But now..it does, and for me personally, (and a lot of others) I want it consigned to the rubbish bin of history as quickly as possible. I actually don't mind you having the freedom to ridicule the Almighty, the Lord Jesus, Christians and our faith. Because I also have the same freedom to mock (if I want) your own position.

I don't see the Atheist foundation as any kind of threat, I see it as a very happily received platform on which to proclaim the truth of Christ.

You did make a very important point. You suggested that if we wish to avoid the kind of mockery you perpetrated, we should look at our beliefs. *BINGO*... I totally agree. Now.. doesn't it strike you as rather 'odd' and unjust that I could speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing BUT the truth about err..lets say a 'high profile religious identity of times gone by'.. who has a rather large following, and YET..I could be jailed or fined some huge amount?

If I said 'so and so was a child molester, warlord, abuser and mutilator of captives' it would be aboslutely true of the person concerned. But in public, simply to 'annoy' people (as opposed to reasonable and robust public debate in good faith) then.. any of us could be in big legal trouble.

Foxy; all the world is nuts,
And we are little squirrels
Hiding and frolicking in the trees, gathering to our chests
Our hatreds, hoarded and cherished,
Each chosen that we might yet seek fame.
Here the war-monger, spreading arms
And Hatred, mixing blood with tears
And spreading yet again abroad
His racist propaganda.
And this, the bigot, armed with swastika,
Five-pointed yellow star,
Or cross or crescent moon,
Risen high in firmament these his armament,
Crying Havoc, he fills the gap with his English dead.

Etc Etc Etc. Thank you Bill, deceased.
Couldn't help myself, nor can anyone else.
Have fun.

Peter.. a couple of more points if I may.

You said:

<<My intention wasn’t to insult, merely to point out to rational people the immorality of letting an innocent person take the blame for others.>>

You just discovered the heinous nature of the RRT2001. 'my intention'..
i.e.. your motive.

Here is section 9 of the Act.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rarta2001265/s9.html

Motive and dominant ground irrelevant

9. Motive and dominant ground irrelevant

(1) In determining whether a person has contravened section 7 or 8, the person's motive in engaging in any conduct is irrelevant.

THIS...is as close as we get to Orwellian social control of dissent!

I don't care how long it takes.. or what I have to do, but trust me.. this WILL be changed.

Interestingly, the Melbourne Jewish community which lobbied FOR the act in teamwork with the Muslims.. used the act AGAINST the Muslims of ISSNA over jihadist books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_and_Religious_Tolerance_Act_2001

Final Point..on 'Easter'. You mentioned 'morality'.. I ask.. on what grounds.. objective grounds.. do you make ANY statement about 'morality' when your primary belief is, that there is nothing outside the material universe to believe in, including the existence of such a thing as 'morality? (if you don't see the irrationality of such a position.. maybe 'you' need to re-examine your beliefs.)

Dear Henry VIII,

"War, he sung, is toil and trouble;
Honour but an empty bubble.
Never ending, still beginning,
Fighting still, and still destroying,
If all the world be worth the winning,
Think, oh think, it worth enjoying."

John Dryden, 'Alexander's Feast.'

Dear Peter,

When you and I are long forgotten years from now, they will still be talking about a man called Jesus.

His life has so greatly impacted the world that time is referenced from His birth.

It continues to intrigue me no end that some people who don't believe in anything spend so much time denouncing something. It's oxymoronic, and bizarre.

Also, with a LITTLE research you'll find out fairly rapidly that it wasn't Christians who sacrificed Christ, it was the Romans, and the Orthodox Jews 'passed him wide'. Christianity didn't really become Christianity till around 100ad. Until then, it was more of an alternative way of looking at God's teachings...IMO

Really though, you guys should be honest and admit you're not actually Atheists, you're confused, you're more Anti-Religious (not that I've read about you guys denouncing anything other than Christianity), than Atheist.

StG, I must say I am certainly not confused. It must be pointed out that anything said about how silly we believe theism to be applies equally to all religions, it's just that the Christians on this forum take that personally and say that we are attacking their religion or themselves yadda yadda ad nauseum....

If we all denounced Islam specifically, then this forum would turn into a pretty big bigoted suckfest pretty damn fast, as there aren't nearly as many muslims around to defend themselves.

This is an Australian forum and the Atheists would naturally tend to make the most remarks about the dominant religion and the one that most affects them in public policy and socially. But essentially the remarks apply equally to all god-worshippers.

The implication that Atheists don't dislike or denounce non-Christian religions (read Islam) is absurd at best. We only defend and understand their humanity as we defend and understand yours. To Atheists, the absurdity lies in the attacking of one god-belief system (some even think they are allied with Satan or something), while vehemently defending another eerily similar belief.

Thanks for the elucidation, Chappy... so... the Christian god committed suicide to beat death. Smart thinking.

Dear Boaz,
We agree that the act should be amended. You question an atheist’s morals. Moral, or socially acceptable human conduct is the product of thousands of years of survival. A moral act is one that promotes human welfare. Acts such as murder, rape, theft, cheating one’s fellows and destruction of the environment do not contribute to human welfare and are therefore immoral. There’s nothing religious or ‘god given’ in that... merely common sense. Long before civil societies or organised religion began laying down their own laws, hunter-gatherers embraced values such as kindness, generosity, consideration, affection, honesty, hospitality, compassion, charity, humour, gentleness, equality, listening, egalitarianism, respect for the elderly, love of children, diligent respect for the land, plants and animals... This moral code, to which all atheists I know try to adhere, ensured human survival and has no basis whatever in religion.
It took religion to declare our bodies sinful and women unequal. As for being a source of moral guidance, the bible endorses slavery, animal and human sacrifice, bigamy, pillage, arson, war, and genocide. Whatever is wrong with Western culture, there are no religious remedies for it, for they have all been tried.
Revealingly, there is not one word in the gospels in praise of intelligence.

Peter

StG, I wrote that Christians celebrate the sacrifice, not that they perpetrated it. You appear confused about atheists. All we say is that there’s no evidence for the supernatural claims of any religion. We are perfectly happy for adults to practice whatever religion they choose in private, with other adults. However, we think it is wrong to indoctrinate children with supernatural beliefs before they’ve learned to think for themselves. If religion is so uplifting, why not teach them about all religions and philosophies, then when they’re sixteen, let them choose for themselves? The other problem atheists’ have with religions is their desire to interfere in law-making. Clearly, that is not advisable because it leads to sectarian wars, as we see in so many countries where religions dominate politics. Do you want Catholics and Protestants at each other’s throats? Muslims throwing stones at Hindus? Baptists picketing Jewish synagogues? Don’t laugh. If any one religious group gains control of the legislature, something like that will eventually happen. Surely you can see that for believers and unbelievers alike, secularism in government is the only way to ensure civic harmony.

Peter

RELIGIOUS GROUPS and the STATE.

Peter, I tend to agree on that issue. Though historically, the problem has been between the 2 major 'organizational' faiths. Catholicism (which, like Islam, has more of a 'State' approach to things religious)and Anglicanism. The reasons for the conflict go back to King Henry the VIII as most of us know.

GOD COMMITTED SUICIDE...? well.. I guess thats probably 'one' way of describing the events of Easter, but it certainly does not convey even remotely the richness of the concept of Messiah and Gods love.
Such terminology is callous in the extreme and does not do the slightest justice to the facts or context.

Jesus explained the neccessity of the Messiah's sacrificial death for mankind. He mentioned it repeatedly, while walking to Jerusalem.

In his mind and heart were the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms, as they all contribute to the idea of 'Messiah'..
At the heart of the Messiah's role is this: (Is 53)

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

IMAGINE.... the Noble King of a people under seige. He offers the beseiging enemy "If I offer myself in place of my people, will this be acceptable?" The enemy agrees, frees the people, and executes the King.
Its just a weak human illustration of a profound and unfathomable act of divine love.

Oestra or Eastres, is the goddess of new life and fertility.

And we still celebrate her fecundity today. While I don't believe in gods at all, not even lusty ones like Eastres, I will happily scoff down a few choccies, buns and if I get lucky, fornicate.

Happy Easter and many thanks to the christians, who without your contribution Eastres has not been forgotten.

:-)

Strange isn't it that christians never bothered to change the name of this fertility celebration?

I mean if this really was about an execution of someone significant, you'd think the name would've been changed to something like,

'Slow death by Torture' hmmm, a bit wordy, um, how about

'Cruciter'

the celebration of a crucifixion. But the eating of buns and choccies and much fornication would no longer be appropriate. I think I have worked out why christians never changed the name from Easter.....

While I'm certainly not religious, like Fractelle I'm grateful to the Christians for keeping the old pagan fertility rites alive. I love the symbolism of rabbits (the embodiment of fornication and reproduction) and eggs (say no more), the fact that we get to close our business for four days in a row so that we can spend time with our kids and each other, and indeed the enhanced possibility of engaging in some fornication ourselves.

The only negatives are the road toll, the fact the pubs are shut on Good Friday, and a tendency to overindulge in chocolate - however my partner would likely suggest the latter is an impossibility.

Have a good one everybody - see you all after the fertility holiday!

Peter,

"StG, I wrote that Christians celebrate the sacrifice, not that they perpetrated it."

Very first post;

"...Christians sacrificed a living human, so their god would forgive the sins of everyone else!".

Yeah, ya did.

"All we say is that there’s no evidence for the supernatural claims of any religion."

I don't know how you can make a statement like that with a straight face, my friend. I really don't want to argue the topic. It's pointless, and circular. There's no evidence there isn't 'God'.

"We are perfectly happy for adults to practice whatever religion they choose in private, with other adults."

Gee thanks, but you're not, or we wouldn't be talking about it. You raised the issue, remember?

Am I the only person who thinks that the posting of this subject was counter-productive for an Atheist Foundation?

Peter, I understand the aim of your group is to combat christian proselytising. But no-one - not even BD - had even brought the subject of Easter up, much less used it as an excuse to Spread the Word.

Maybe this article was looked at as a pre-emptive strike in anticipation of words to come? But even in that case, as you state that members of your foundation have no problem with peoples beliefs but rather with the spreading of them...isn't that exactly what you were doing?

"Am I the only person who thinks that the posting of this subject was counter-productive for an Atheist Foundation?"

I think it's the people IN the foundation that's counter-productive. They make NO sense. I don't understand why they wuld even bring it up. It's weird to continually make an effort to pick at one scab that isn't even part of your appendage.

Fraccy

'Christians' didn't change the name of the Easter events.. hmmm maybe because they didn't see fit to IMPOSE 'our' religion on the popular festivals of the community? :)

Also... it appears that the 'English' word Easter has it's origins in the Germanic link Fraccy mentioned (Oestres), but in other languages it isn't the same. The connection is more with the Jewish passover or the death and resurrection of the Lord.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter#Germanic_languages

Romany is right.. no one had said 'boo' about Easter or the Christian beliefs about it, (until I did this morning:) and I sure hope my topic is accepted, cos it has some gems in it. Just in case it doesn't get up..I'll post the links here also. Very much worth a listen/look.

Friday..but Sunnnndays a COMin...

http://www.worshiphousemedia.com/index.cfm?hndl=details&tab=MM&id=4505

Jesus.. Republican or Democrat?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m584z5aE4Uc&feature=related

Safe holidays everyone... er Fraccy.. if ur going to fornicate, make sure you are careful eh.. we don't want to read some sad post here of you falling apart at the seams from some diabolical disease that at this point you don't have.

But hey..why not try something novel, instead of just going for the 'existential experience' of a bit of pleasure..why not consider a deep and meaningful love for life...without extra emotional baggage?

I have just enjoyed 3 of my wife's excellent hot cross buns, and I will eat lots of chocolate over the weekend.

I don't give a stuff what atheists or religionists think about anything.

Boaz

My moniker, is FRACTELLE - perhaps for Easter you should have your eyes tested, if your vision is fine, then some lessons in courtesy would be a considerate thing for you to spend your time on.

As for your comments:

"'Christians' didn't change the name of the Easter events.. hmmm maybe because they didn't see fit to IMPOSE 'our' religion on the popular festivals of the community?"

A) I was having some fun. Do you know what humour is?

B) Christians (especially ones like you) do nothing else but impose your views on the rest of the world.

C) This may come as a shock to you, but I am remarkably well informed and am fully aware that the celebration of the Goddess Eastres coincides with Passover.

and

D) Don't intend responding directly to any more of your posts until you treat others who hold a different POV to you with more respect. You see Boaz, it is about karma, what you put out you get back. Capiche?

To the gentle readers of OLO - I did get lucky :-), how do you get chocolate off the bed sheets?

"To the gentle readers of OLO - I did get lucky :-), how do you get chocolate off the bed sheets?" - Fractelle

Please mean you were using chocolate as a sex aid and not that you're 200 kilos and slobbering it all over the sheets.

StG: "Please mean you were using chocolate as a sex aid and not that you're 200 kilos and slobbering it all over the sheets."

Fractelle said "moniker", not "Monica" :O

CJ

LOL

Happy lusty Easter to ya

Continuing the festive spirit I tried to locate George Carlin's interview with Jesus, however I think his hearty little discourse on the Ten Commandments will suffice.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=rCz0-HY1TLU

Warning for the easily offended, this video will offend you :-)

Enjoy

Romany wrote... “But no-one - not even BD - had even brought the subject of Easter up, much less used it as an excuse to Spread the Word.”

Do you and your mates spend every waking minute on OLO? Have you not noticed shops full of Easter goodies, or the hoardings outside churches proclaiming the holiness of Easter? Have you not realised there’s a holiday proclaimed for this Christian festival? Didn’t you go to church and listen to sermons leading up to this most wondrous event about an omniscient creator of the entire universe who turned himself into a human then volunteered to subject himself to the usual Roman punishment for enemies of the state [hundreds of thousands of men were crucified, not just him], then turned himself back into a god again to escape the grave, then turned back into a man again to say hello to a couple of old mates who had difficulty recognising him, then turned himself back into a god and drifted off into the sky – unharmed.

You are so used to the widespread propagandising of Christian myths, you don’t even notice! You think it is normal! So when one small opinion piece pointing out the absurdity and immorality of the celebration appears on an insignificant forum, you think the sky has collapsed. What an insular world you inhabit.

How insecure is your belief. How fragile your faith, that my opinion can send you all into a frenzy. You’ve made my day.

Peter

I don't get why you care, Pete, mate.

Peter

I think it is quite OK to point out whenever a religion has too much influence and on that I disagree with Romany, do we have to wait until Boaz has dribbled on about something before offering an opinion on christianity?

Of course not.

However, I do think you need to lighten up, for my part I have explained what Easter is really about, and that it is strange that the christians didn't alter the pagan name to something more christie, hell, I even made suggestions.

And far from getting into a tiz I posted a link for some good old George Carlin humour.

And while I am on a roll here, why don't you join into other atheist discussions like mine huh? Why does it have to be your discussions on your terms? Hmmmmmm?

Like Dawkins said getting atheists together is like trying to herd cats.

;-)

Peter - "my mates" are a mixture of agnostics, people who believe in a supreme being and people who don't, Hindu, Rastafarians, a Muslim or two and even a couple of communists and wiccans. They have absolutely nothing to do with what I believe or post.

The point I was trying to make was that you often appear to be as zealous about spreading your word as christians are about theirs. Who cares - as enough people on this thread have demonstrated - what christians think of when they celebrate holidays which their forefathers adapted from older traditions? If, in fact, you object to christians simply because you think they are wrong then you are exhibiting the same kind of bigotry of which you accuse them.

So Easter celebrations annoy you because of the hype? Well I gotta tell you that the same dates on the calender without the hype are a total bust. Hell, what I wouldn't give for a 5 day holiday right now! And if it was accompanied by chocolate (especially those small Cadbury cream-filled ones that are so sweet they almost set your teeth on edge but are just so - sigh - yummy)I wouldn't give a rats about what some sects I myself didn't believe in, thought they were celebrating!

Fractelle: - Half yer luck...and let's hear it for the bunnies.

Christians are soooo dumb.. they would believe anything....

THIS WAS YOUR LIFE.....

-You studied Latin by the age of four.
-You leaning Greek by age of 7,
-At 13 you began on Hebrew.
-You never won 'worlds sexiest man' because you were only 5' tall and your head was disproportionately large compared to your body.
-You wrote much poetry, and had a natural flare for rhyme.
-You wrote a book on logic which became the standard text on the subject at Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard and Yale universities. (used at Oxford for over 100yrs)
-You were jailed a number of times for being a religious dissenter.
-You wrote over 600 hymns, many still sung today including:

"When I survey the wondrous cross, on which the king of Glory died"

ISAAC WATTS.. come on down!

blessings all.

Wow, that guy was really smart Boazy!

At what age did he decide to become a Christian?

I think Peter Has a wonderful handle on it.

You people just dont like his common sense approach.
Ar Yes the Scape Goat the Chisitian sacrifices.

Yes The Good Old Christians of the world. Of Course Australia saw another example up here in Brisbane when a woman stole a childs pet goat called Mandy and tortured and slaughtered it slowly in the Church- Where else?

The head of the Church forgave her- for the mess.

We Christians in Australia and their Church Leaders are also responsible for turning their backs on the fact that we as a christian country are the laregset exporter of these poor animals who are send alive in ships sometimes for up to three months in 50% degree Heat- tossed dowen mincers alive stareved of water and anyway too ill to drink it if its there.

Then we have the good Christians like Philo and no doubt you David full of joy at these things and this time of year and christmass.

Why not offer ourselves now as Peter said as a human sacrifice.

If its such an honour in the eyes of your God why not be the blessed ones?

Any takers?

Well put Peter.
PS Yes David the guy has put his ID up. Unlike most of you.

Thats a fair dinkim person not someone who hides under a false name and here we will join him. In all this time David I say to you again- You never once wanted to know what was going on with the Muslims of Australia. Considering Muslims are your pet topic I find that beyond the pale .
You just enjoy that chicken over the holiday period and dont worry about how it was raised or how much it suffered. Just stick your head in the bible like the rest of you so called good people.

http://www.halakindmeats.com/

So anybody want to put their hand up as a sacrifise to God?

Yes well put as usual Peter

Hi Bugsy (I forgot.. he also learned French)

well.. as I understand it, he was in fact 'brought up' in a non conformist Christian home.
He records his coversion at age 15.

He was rejected by Oxford as a student, due to his 'non conformity' background, though later his book on logic became the standard text as mentioned in the previous post.

The 'crowd' in which Isaac moved are the forebears of both the "Open" Brethren and also the Exclusives. Historically they were a reaction to the dry formalism and liturgical strictness of the Anglican Church.

Sadly, like many movements which have pure beginnings, they can become entrenched in their own 'ruts' or.. division based on strong personalities, dress codes, worship methods, hymn choice. Such is life.

Easter..

FRIDAY ...the Tragedy and dissappointment for the depressed disciples.

"But we SAW Him change water into wine.. we SAW him heal the blind, the lame.. the leprous.. we REALLY thought he was going to change the world..........now..look at him.. dead on that cross" aaah..but that, -was 'Friday' :)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

(Sunday's a comin)

How can a man brought up in a Christian home be 'converted' to Christinity at 15?

Wow, 7 pages of nothing. Someone delete the thread. Pete starts a topic and picks and chooses at what he addresses.

Bugsy.. fair question.

Being brought up in a Christian home simply provides a faith framework.. an environment, it does not guarantee a child will embrace that faith.

Being Christian..is, as Jesus said "Born again".. from the inside out... the heart.. not just the mind.

There is a real change. I know that there are things I just didn't think twice about b4 I came to the Lord.. but that soon changed, and since that opening of my heart to Him.. the desire to do wrong has dissappeared. I guess I just didn't see a lot of things were wrong b4 that.. The biggest challenge and temptation is those things which 'seem so right cos they feel so good'... as the song goes.

I had the view "If I can get away with it.. whats the worry"...

Christ touches is at the deepest level of our being. Its like that 'perfect love' that all of us long for. We will never find it in a human being.. but we can find it in our Creator.

Like trying to describe the Wind.. cant see it... only the result of it.

The Atheist Foundation of Australia Inc received this comment on our Easter media release from a member and thought I'd share it with you all.

Peter

"Ah, but you forget - this god wasn't just sacrificing a man - somehow the god and the man were the same person (at the same time as the god being the man's father - and both of them being the same person as their even more invisible spirit) and so he was sacrificing his son - and himself - and his spirit - at the same time, whilst thinking he had deserted himself and not knowing his own plans for raising himself three days later before being possessed by himself and ascending to sit on his own right hand side . It all makes sense now - doesn't it??"

Rod

StG; you don’t get why I care if irrationality and nonsense rules – that’s because you are out of touch with reality.

Fractelle, forgive me for not thanking you for the link to George Carlin... He’s wonderful – excruciatingly funny as only the truth can be. You ask why I don’t lighten up and join other atheist discussions like yours... sorry... I didn't realise you had such discussions, and also didn't realise I was forcing my terms on you. I still have no idea what that means.
Another amusing link http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=x45EOzMJA5o

Romany, I am delighted you have so many ‘mates’ from such diverse theological and philosophical perspectives – ten gold stars for your liberality. You write; “...you often appear to be as zealous about spreading your word as christians are about theirs.” Often? This is my first post! As for objecting to christians simply because I think they are wrong – I don’t give a tinker’s cuss what they believe – as long as they don’t get billions of dollars of tax breaks, access to young children’s minds, and any influence on law-making. As a taxpayer, I also object to the millions of dollars of public money paying for the pope’s visit. I should have realised that the morality of scapegoating and human sacrifice would be incomprehensible to a Christian.

People Against Live Exports... Thanks for your comments. I am as sickened by the way we treat animals as by child indoctrination with supernatural nonsense. Most commercially produced animal products in Australia cause more cruelty to the animals than Japanese whalers do to their prey. Thanks for the link.

STG... I have responded to all relevant posts [I’m not that fond of chocolate] – you don’t respond to mine, probably because you have no idea what I’m writing about.

Peter

Ouch! o.k., o.k., I get the sarcasm in your "delight" and gold star award. But hell, I was only responding to your questioning of "you and your mates" by pointing out that my friends beliefs are nothing to do with me. And am STILL trying to puzzle out why you assume both I and any putative friends I may have are christian?

And I apologise if you have never posted before then I must have mixed you up with someone else. I realise this is the first thread you have initiated but I was also under the impression you had contributed to other threads. Sorry.

Vanilla: now I know how you were feeling recently! Seems its my turn not to be understood this week. Like you, I am beginning to wonder what has happened to the way I express myself?

"… values such as kindness, generosity, consideration, affection, honesty, hospitality, compassion, charity, humour, gentleness, equality, listening, egalitarianism, respect for the elderly, love of children, diligent respect for the land, plants and animals...”

What a wonderful list of values. I agree, we all possess an intuitive ethical compass if you like. And drawing on our own inner strength is surely more empowering than having to rely on a god or holy book for direction.

I know and admire Christians who live out these values in their lives and I know Muslims and atheists who do too. To me the religiosity or lack of it is irrelevant, these people just happen to be innately decent. Conversely, I come across Christians who proclaim their religion very publicly and yet whose words and actions belie these values completely.

“…an omniscient creator of the entire universe who turned himself into a human then volunteered to subject himself to the usual Roman punishment for enemies of the state [hundreds of thousands of men were crucified, not just him], then turned himself back into a god again to escape the grave, then turned back into a man again to say hello to a couple of old mates who had difficulty recognising him, then turned himself back into a god and drifted off into the sky – unharmed.”

Yes, this captures the absurdity of it all quite brilliantly I think.

I’ve held off from commenting on this thread until now, mainly out of respect for Foxy. But I decided to weigh in and show support for Peter's position when I noticed the number of negative responses it was attracting!

The appeal of the atheist viewpoint has firmed for me over the years pretty much in direct response to the assault by organized religion on our long held and time honoured secular institutions, a fact alluded to also by Peter. I'm particularly angry about the attack on public education and the way the intertwined growth of religious and private schooling is destroying the egalitarian fair go for all and creating a segregated and stratified society in its place.

Bronwyn

I concur entirely with your post. I am very concerned at the 'special' deal religion gets in our society. It definitely needs to be made accountable and stopping the tax breaks would be a good start.

Peter

Thank you for your reply - I appreciate what you said. Another thread is Turnrightturnleft's discussion called "A dark side of Christianity - will reasonable Christians renounce it?"

Here's the link: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1598

At OLO we need as many rational thinkers as we can get. The invitation is there, the rest is up to you.

Romany, I know exactly what you mean about feeling misunderstood, that is how I have been feeling of the "Fair go for Women" thread.

Finally, I loved the quote from Peter about how the christian "logic" works... or doesn't.

Fractelle,

Not to worry, I think your posts, and Vanilla's, are models of clarity and have never seen them any other way. And yeah, the Fair Go thread is another one where I seem to have lost the plot. At such times my mother used to recite the "All the worlds a little queer..." thing to me which, while it didn't help too much, at least would bring a grin.

And yeah - the "logic" thing was a gem.

Peter
Your welcome and regards