I used to have a friend who used to shout at the microwave when the machine wasnt cooking fast enough.
It was quite funny.
I mean the thing is only going to go as fast as it does.
What a fast moving world we live in.
Everything has to be done right now, today, this minute.
And what carelessness it causes; and so many heart attacks.
Frequently I get bagged on this site by folk who simply havent taken the time to read what Ive said...they speed read and jump words and ignore the gist.
Ive done it and when it backfires its embarrassing.
So how about we take the time to read the comment someone has written and respond with greater care?
Let the rat race fade... and read, comprehend and then respond.

GIBO...welcome to my 'creepy' world :)

How many times have you seen the Brilliance of CJ Morgan saying "You selectively take texts, have no evidence at all.. blather on.. biased..bigoted.. yada yada"

THEN...

He comes out with this beauty :)

"I have as much interest in the mythical Islamic texts as I have in the Christian ones..zilch"

I meannnn ... errrr...words fail me...

Then there is 'Frank'.. "you have no evidence" etc etc.. yada yada.. but you present evidence and then Frank just comes back with "you are this or that" ...

Talk about 'blinkered and bigoted'.. "Don't confuse me with facts.. I have my mind verrrrry much made up thank you" Onya Frank... don't take this too personally mate.. no offence.. just making observations.

Fuzzy Foxy goes on about 'patience/tolerance/understanding' yet she barely has a basic understanding of the Christian texts, let alone the Islamic.....it would appear... and all of them seem to demonstrate a singular lack of a grasp of world events, unable to see that 'what is happening in UK.or France.. now..is what might happen here soon if we don't do something about it.

So..in short..I agree.

READ...
COMPREHEND...
DISCUSS....
and then..if evidence is presented, evuate 'IT' and not the presenter... and debate IT....rather than project your own preconceived views about what people who say some unpopular, politically incorrect things are in fact like and play the man.

We are all guilty of this at times - through the very reasons you mention Gibo - that of our rush rush society and perceived need for immediate gratifcation. I know I am guilty of it sometimes. We all need to stop and smell the roses.

I is difficult on a forum, we are at a disadvantage in that we don't know each other and words on a screen are just that. We can't see the person's facial expressions or body language and maybe sometimes the subtle nuances get missed in the reading and interpretation.

I guess the best thing is to assume the BEST. Assume that a comment wasn't meant the way it 'sounded'. Of course there will be those who outright abuse but that can be easily ignored. Religion is one area that will always arouse the passions, you cannot argue logic or rationale with Religion it won't work with faith-based reasoning so already people will be on the defensive to prove ostensibly that their values are important and valid (on both sides of the argument).

Gibo, I've not noticed much evidence of you being bagged due to people misreading what you have posted. Perhaps you could list a dozen or so examples (The little blue icon under each post allows you to copy the URL of the post to the clipboard for later pasting into a message).

I suspect that you will find the overwhelming majority of the criticism's leveled at your posts are due to the unsubstantiated fairy tales you try and foist on the world as fact.

Maybe some reading into what you are doing based on past experience with you but I've not noticed anybody getting that obviously wrong yet.

Perhaps instead of worrying that people are not taking the time to comprehend your posts you could take the time to read and comprehend the mostly valid rebuttals of those posts.

You might learn something even if it's a bit scary.

R0bert

I dont think I will bother RObert.
Theres too many here that will twist anything I say no matter how I prove it so.
Some love to play with pentecostal christianity.
Others like to play with little green men and UFO's.
Others like to bag over my concern over national defence (actually Im not a gun person).
I think your one of them.

So gibo, you say often people misinterpret you.

When asked to provide examples, you don't want to, claiming it will be misrepresented. I think that's a copout.

Frankly, I think R0bert's quite right. You know that your evangelical christianity infused with demonic tales, prophecies, and flying saucers can't stand up to logic or rational criticism, so instead you claim to be misinterpreted.

And boaz, as for your posts, there's only so many times you can have someone attempt to present ancient scripture ( be it talking snakes, talking burning bushes or miracles) to you as immutable fact before you tell them you just can't listen to that guff anymore.

Tell me boaz, if I made post upon post on this website, each one reading from the manual of say, a samsung mobile phone, and claimed these textual nuggets were able to solve the mysteries of the world, would you keep paying attention - especially if I tended to have a single axe to grind - say, the abolition of pineapple on pizza (heaven forbid).

THE TRUTH: The samsung A210 hath spoken. THE BIG PICTURE! NOW: The book of samsung speaks only of communication and understanding between peoples of the world.

CULTURAL CLASHES The scripture of the pizza lover however, is racked with evil. HATRED: Cholesterol and pepperoni shall smite the good people of the planet with their greasy ways.

Be it the bible or the qu'ran, what you don't appear to see, is that people read what they want from the both of them. They're both so broad, anyone can interpret them in a manner that suits their prejudices.
Witness the westboro church verbally attacking heath ledger during his family's time of mourning.

No doubt you've got an interpretation that can condemn the westboro fanatics as wrong, boaz, but they've got their interpretation, you've got yours, sunni islamic militants have their interpretation of the qu'ran, just the like moderate shi'ites have another, just like mormons have an interpretation and seventh day adventists have theirs.

The rest of us couldn't give a crap. Which is why we ignore all this mysticism.

Dear TRTL,

Thank you for your post - you actually made me laugh out loud.

I really needed that today!

TRTL....

well.. you may have a point....

here's a light hearted change.

YOU HAVE to see this.. it's incredible.. I might even use some of this stuff... but seriously..its awesome...and.. as Robert said about Gibo..'
you might learn something....

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=MLkLLN97fV4&feature=related

Make sure you see the whole thing mate. (those blokes have balls of steel)

PS.. I persist in presenting the material I do, because:

a) it is sound.
b) not managing to convince too many who appear to have the brains to get it if they actually turned them on.
c) I get bagged by quite a few.. but not on substantive argumented/evidence based grounds.. but on emotional and sentimental.

As soon as I see open minds, rather than heads in the sand... I'll desist :)

You might be aware of a major trial beginning today in Melbourne. (terrorism)
The media is quoting from some of the phone tapped convo's...its shocking, disturbing.. and as I said to my son in law when they mentioned 'blowing up a football stadium full of people' and that Benbrika was teaching his 'flock' that its ok to kill women, children and oldies.. well.. if my mockers don't see that vigilance is a responsibility and duty..then I'd wonder if they live in the real world.

Don't fret too much about my reprtition..its not aimed at you, as I detect we can have a productive discussion. See my comments about Morgan and ilk in the above post..... and see if you tweak to why I keep on keeping on.
Morgan "you know nothing" kind of attitude
Morgan (later) "I know nothing of your, or islamic scriptures" (words to that effect)

to end it all... just agree with me :) x 10

Gibo, I don't think that you would be able to find anything substantial to back your claim "Frequently I get bagged on this site by folk who simply havent taken the time to read what Ive said...they speed read and jump words and ignore the gist."

Yet another unsubstantiated claim when the evidence if it exists should be easy to find and supply.

I admit to being one of those who finds penticostal christianity particularly vile and counter to the teachings of the Jesus of the bible.

Your flying saucers are frustrating because you have not bothered to check on the claims behind them but still promote them as though they had some place in serious discussion.

Your concerns over national defence appear to be mostly based on the ramblings in a 30+ year old book with no basis in fact combined with some of Boazy's zenophobia.

When confronted with evidence which rebutt's your claims you appear to ignore it. I don't recall any retractions or referals to authorative sources which back your claims.

You have started this thread based on what I consider to be a false charge against other posters, refused to back up your claim with any evidence. Clearly over your posting history you have demonstrated your own failure and unwillingness to comprehend.

R0bert

Boazy: "Morgan "you know nothing" kind of attitude
Morgan (later) "I know nothing of your, or islamic scriptures" (words to that effect)"

If you're going to quote me of all people, please try to do so accurately.

Boazy's on record in this forum of fabricating "quotations" of what people say, and he's now applying his curious version of veracity to me as well.

I didn't say I know nothing about Christian and Muslim myths - I said I wasn't going to go and read their mythical texts at Boazy's behest (or, for that matter, waste bandwidth on endless idiotic YouTube videos).

Gibo - what R0bert said :)

And TRTL of course. That last post gave me a good chuckle :)

I hope some of you younger guys are going to strengthen your limp wrists and weak arms.
Youre far too weak inside.
Its such a sad generation, so was the last one. Both drugged or boozed and demon music-ed out of their brains.
If youre not ready for the Bibles future, you will shattered on the rocks of a stormy coastline somewhere.
I really believe that invader is coming in our lifetimes.
You have to be ready for it; and not eating pizza and worshipping the Samsung.
I wont talk or dance with new age, baby authors who want to stir the pot in every post.

Dear Gibo,

A mature person is marked by an acceptance of self and others.
He can look forward instead of looking backward. He can chart his own life. He is open to new directions, innovative and explorative.
He knows that "finding himself" is an ongoing process throughout life, and for him doing is more important than having, experiencing more important than possessing. He takes responsibility for himself.
He knows that happiness and security lie within himself but he knows also how to use all the creative elements of his integrated self in his personal relationships through which both he and others can grow in a mutually enhancing way.

What is, was.
What was, is.
What is to be: you, molding your own destiny.

We can grow and go on growing, we can make the most of our lives, living up to our individual human potentials. Or we can blame others for our problems - stew in our frustration - do nothing but scaremonger - and die frustrated. Your choice. But, what a waste!

Much ado about nothing.

Have we really run so short of interesting topics?

Dear phoenix94,

Put your money where your mouth is -

Come up with one!

A bit new age for me Foxy.

Let he hath never addressed a rude word to his computer throw the first stone.

It's really disgusting the way that people go
around saying terrible things about each other
that are absolutely and completely true...

TRTL....(and Fuzzy Foxy)

I'd probably have a bit of a giggle myself at your reasonable attempt at comedy. (though if you and Foxy want a real laugh.. you should see that video I linked to..its a Chasers one.. and they (shock horror) are giving 'it' to the ex Mufti.. has quite a twist at the end though)

TRTL.. seriously mate... SERRRRIously.... you used a phone handbook as an attempt to show how silly it is to quote ancient texts. But surprise suprise.. that handbook is very relevant to users of that phone.

Translating this to "our" contemporary world... I mentioned a trial.
You would do well to contemplate how much damage 500kg of Ammonium nitrate could to at the crowded MCG.

You might also benefit from realizing that the key to understanding what binds that group together.. is.. the very thing.. in the very WAY I've been harping about for the past few yrs.

It truly boggles my mind, that in view of blatant (you cant get more blatant than 500kg of explosive) in your face evidence.. and sound legal minds who are saying the very things I'm saying.. yet.. NOT see the connection to the texts, or the history.. or .. perhaps just not care about it ?

Perhaps I should just retreat and fade away... let it all happen.. no comment..no warning.. no anything.. lets just pray and in your case hope... your children arn't one day watching the footy when *booooom*
occurs.

One reason for recurring themes is.. 'new people'... once oldies like us have had our back and forth and know each others position.. ok.. not much more to say, but then along comes a Foxy or someone..and they just don't have much clue.. simply full of generous human warmth and love... but disconnected from the broader real world..and the things their gentle attitude makes them vulnerable to.. hence. 'repetition'
cheers.

.............Perhaps I should just retreat and fade away... let it all happen.. no comment..no warning.. no anything..

..yes?....,Yes?.....Yessss?.......YES?...,YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!
____________________________

Dear Gibo,

trtl...er,...trtl doesn't worship..er,.. he doesn't worship Samsung mobile phones and ..er, pizza.

He-was-joking...

"simply full of generous human warmth and love"

Boazy you seem to love "youtube" so I've found a couple of youtube links which might help you understand Foxy. I'm not sure if this is the way Foxy see's it but when I consider Foxy's christainity this stuff seems to fit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CobNWUXb1M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZAT2ie_wl8&feature=related

"but disconnected from the broader real world" - connected enough to see through your misrepresentations and spin.

R0bert

Dear RObert,

Thank you for all your kind words in this, and several of the posts on this Forum. They are deeply appreciated.

I feel very humbled by the generosity shown to me by so many of the posters.

To me - religion - is such a personal, private matter (I don't have the "missionary" complex). And I certainly wouldn't dream of trying to convert anyone - or enforce my way of thinking onto anyone.

My father was an academic who firmly believed that tolerance,
and understanding were the keys - to our humanity. He was concerned that the world could become obsessed with the problems of hatred and aggression, that it would allow peace and love to be regarded as soft and weak. Yet our survival depends on their dominance.

Anyway, I regret having lost my dignity by trying to justify my beliefs. I shouldn't have done it - it should have remained - private.

Again, Thanks!

Foxy, you are more than welcome. Whilst I may not always agree with you I very much appreciate your approach and integrity.
In the face of the type of representation of christianity given by Boazy, Gibo and others it may be quite important that you do show the other face of it. Not to badger people with it but to show another face to a faith which is often shown in a very poor light by those with an evangelical bent.

Gibo your refusal to produce evidence of the acusations you made against other posters when you opened this thread suggests to me that you are doing what the bible calls "bearing false witness". It's a shame that you don't spend a bit more time on those aspects of christainity than on unsubstantiated prophecies and conspiracies.

R0bert

Boaz - you say that the phone user would take it quite seriously.

Yes. That actually reinforces my point - it's important to the phone user, and quite irrelevant to the rest of us. Hence, my point, that there's only so much ancient scripture you can handle before you just say, point blank, I just don't care.

In relation to your point about the bombings etc - nobody is denying that it's a possibility. Evidently there are a lot of people with very strange beliefs and priorities out there. Heck, Gibo honestly seems to believe in a prophecy about flying saucers.

(No offence Gibo, but you're plain wrong here - though, fortunately, you appear willing to shelter under a veil of self imposed ignorance, so I'm sure you can just ignore this anyway).

My point in my previous post, is that whilst there are people with obsessions, be they religious or otherwise, there are many who simply want to live and let live. Foxy is a fine example of this - as are the hundreds of millions of muslims who are quite happy to live their lives without being drawn into this global conflict you seem intent upon foisting upon them.

My point was that anybody can interpret a religion how they want.

Make no mistake boaz. Your preachings are against Islam, and by extension, hundreds of millions of people who have shown no sign of wishing violence upon the rest of us.
You can claim it's justified, because some fanatics will inevitably one day attack the rest of us.

Yes. I'm aware of that and I will feel great sadness when it occurs. Not only because of those who die, but because I fear our reaction will also hurt innocent people, such as the tens, perhaps hundreds, of thousands of Iraqi and Afghani civilians who have died in the last seven years.

Cont'd

I happen to believe that your anti-muslim measures are no solution to this at all. They're a reaction that will continue to spread hatred and dislike and ante-up the conflict instead of reducing it.

You don't focus on how to combat extremists. You don't discuss practical measures, like reducing funding to extremist madrassas, while actually SUPPORTING liberal elements of the Islam faith, of which, believe it or not, there are many. I've seen very liberal art, music and dance in Indonesia under the banner of Islam.
You don't discuss the militant havens in pakistan, or if you do, they're only used as an attack on the muslim faith in general.

In fact, when you find examples of Islamic extremism, instead of focusing on constructive methods of bringing into a more peaceful form of Islam, you attack it on the basis that it is Islam and is to be stopped regardless.

It's not a matter of peacefulness for you. You want a war which Christianity can win. I suspect you don't like to acknowledge that, but you speak of how the salvation of christ is the solution to everything, and how we should stop Islam.

Sounds like a contest to me.

Boaz, you say it is in the name of Australian's safety that you preach against Islam, but you display all the trappings of a Christian zealot intent of spreading his own faith. Is it any wonder people believe you are merely promulgating your own interpretation of Christianity above Islam, instead of working peaceably with another faith?

I will stand behind all I have said RObert and no, I wont be dancing for your manipulation of what Ive said.
Manipulation is witchcraft.
Is that one of your weaknesses too?

Dear Gibo,

If you're sincere in your belief - give others the benefit of theirs.
That's the fair thing to do.
And no one is trying to manipulate you.
Least of all Robert.
He's merely pointing out - that you shouldn't be afraid to look at the big picture. Take off the blinkers - there's a beautiful world out there - not a perfect world - but a beautiful one nevertheless.

As another poster said - don't sit in the mud - reach for the stars!

Gibo, it's no manipulation to ask you to produce evidence for an allegation that you have brought against others.

"Frequently I get bagged on this site by folk who simply havent taken the time to read what Ive said...they speed read and jump words and ignore the gist. "

You have claimed that it occurs frequently so it should be very easy to produce a dozen or so examples (one or two would not be frequently).

As the person making the allegation against other posters the onus is on you to produce the evidence or retract your claim.

R0bert

Hi Robert.....

well...I grew up on those sentiments. I still love singing those songs.
Yes, possibly Foxyness does see things that way.
I appeciate your posting of those youtube vids and I hope all posters will also view them.

A couple of points.

1/ A catholic priest once told some tribal indians to bless their enemies. They did...and the enemies slaughtered them all.

2/ While on a personal level I have compassion and love for Muslims (you should know this from my time with FH at macca's) I'm addressing the othe side of the coin..which is the 'issues of state'.
If you want to understand why I'm so adamant about 'Islam' as a religion, then you simply have to do me the courtesy of 'tolerating/understanding' two things.
a) Gods view of 'other'Gospels (Galatians 1:8)
b) The Qurans view of Christians (and Jews) 9:30

FOXY.. seems to be of the view that 'understanding' is only about 'us' understanding and tolerating others.
Foxy... you did not lose your dignity, you gained some honesty.

OK.. work time. Foxy.. I suggest a possible re-think of your formula.

CURRENT version "Tolerance and Understanding" (sounds good on the surface)

NEW IMPROVED VERSION "Understanding..and tolerance of all things which are not a direct threat to my freedom of movement, action,thought, belief in short.. anything which is as tolerant of me as they wish me to be of them."

READING TIME.

Foxy..I'd soooo appreciate an honest answer to this important question.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4ch1sec2.htm

Please.. read that. Then explain to me how your 'current' version will sit in relation to it ?
If you can explain...I'll read every word with intense interest.

Final point.

Quote

FOXY "I'd never try to convert anyone"

JESUS "Go into all the world, make disciples of all nations, batptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Matth28:18ff)

Any comment Foxy ?

TRTL...special for you :)

Mate.. I so DO see where ur coming from.... yes....

What you are not doing, is separating my efforts as a 'citizen' from my actions as a Christian.

Its the 'Sermon on the mount/Romans 13' dichotomy.

On the one hand.. as the vid Robert linked said "and they'll know we are Christians by our love" yes.. LOVE.. and I feel it, I am overjoyed sharing it. But my loving parents used to give me a hiding from time to time :) and I needed it.

Please don't limit 'love' to just being some kind of social/political door mat.

Unfortunately, we have the reality of Somali Taxi Drivers..80% of the total at Minneapolis Airport flauting USA law, stubbornly, based on Islamic law.

Now...that kind of encroachment MUST be challenged. Awareness must be raised.. and people motivated to write.. protest.. yell scream.. whatever it takes to force Authorities to actually BE the Authority.
The airport Authority received 1500 emails of protest about this... one of them was mine.
Now..they are crunching errant Taxi drivers who are-surprise surprise.. COMPLYING.. but they would not comply until the threat of our LAW was brought big and large into their pockets. (30 suspension for refusal to carry.. 2 yr suspension on 2nd offence)

So..that is one LESS issue I'll rant about.

Now.... the explosives issue in Melbourne.. u know..thats my HOME.. and I just think "500kg =1000lb bomb.".. pretty devastating. If it took out my son at the footy.. I'd be heartbroken.

Unlike you, I won't wait doing nothing till it happens. I know where the radicals hang out.....perhaps the best medication is the Gospel of peace?

My target is "Islam" as you correctly note. Reason ? Simple.. It is from 'Islam' that the problems have come. Radicals are just 'Quranic' Muslims. If you don't see this, we can get together and study it.
oR.. just have a casual read of this (same link I gave to Foxy)
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4ch1sec2.htm
Don't you see how MUCH of the Quran is there?

Boazy,

NEW IMPROVED VERSION "Understanding..and tolerance of all things which are not a direct threat to my freedom of movement, action,thought, belief in short.. anything which is as tolerant of me as they wish me to be of them."

Go into all the world, make disciples of all nations, batptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Matth28:18ff)

The second appears to be something that violates my understanding of the first. Maybe we should have some laws against the second because there is's something we don't need to tollerate.

"well...I grew up on those sentiments. I still love singing those songs. " - maybe time to take stock of how far the views you express on this forum differ from those sentiments. A meeting with FH does not undo your obsession with trying to create strife.

Maybe time to start dealing more honestly - be willing to take on fellow believers when they behave badly, be at least as keen to stamp out the kind of christain excesses which threaten my freedoms as you are to stamp out muslim excesses. If Gibo was of a faith other than christianity I suspect that you would be all over him like a rash for the stuff he posts here but you stay silent then object when muslims are reluctant to speak out against other muslims.

Should Gibo back up his allegations?

Put your own house in order before you try and deal with the neighbours. The extremism and power of the christian penticostal movement is a far greater threat to my freedoms than anything muslims have a chance of achieving in this country in the forseeable future.

R0bert

R0bert, I suspect that regardless of the words being spoken or the message being conveyed, it is preferable to pretend that your opponent isn't listening or doesn't understand, than to realise they have read the message, understood it, and still reject it as based upon dogma, twisted or exaggerated truth, or outright falsehoods.

Where it gets frustrating, is when logic ends its course. There's a wall there, where reasoned discussion can't continue, and individuals either retreat into scripture, or in Gibo's case, just acknowledge they don't want to know certain things.

I note your point about boaz and Gibo - both being so heavily into scripture, I think boaz would probably be able to reason with gibo more than the average poster, and show him that his beliefs really are quite destructive and can easily be disproven if he has the courage to acknowledge that.

Whilst I know it's important to allow a multitude of belief sets, those promoted by charlatans, such as cults, need to be exposed for the fallacies they are.

I guess boaz is partially right in that there's only so much leeway you can give some belief set. Few outside scientologists themselves, for instance, stand willing to defend it.

There's an irony in that boaz is so keen to persuade us of the destructiveness of Islam, but won't acknowledge or attempt to dissuade gibo of his evidently precarious state - even fundamentalist believers rarely have a belief in demons, modern day prophecies and flying saucers.

I'm not saying this as an attack on you gibo. The truth is, you're not well at all and I think any reasonable person who sees your posts here would agree. But I think that as with most people caught in the grip of dogma, you'd rather believe it's the vast multitude who are wrong, and you're the rare voice of reason amongst the throng.

No, Im not dancing for any of your guys, at all, despite RObert trying it on.
I saw youre responses to what I have written over quite a few months, despite a gap.
You just want to stick it into christians.
Its quiet a common thing.
The gays hate us because we tell the truth about their lifestyle of sin and because we speak of the spiritual consequences of what they do in that sin. We dont want to see them in hell, but if they persist in what they are doing, thats where they will be. Testimonies of christians who were "taken" to hell to see the horror, tell of people down in hell for decades...longer. God hates the Sodomite behaviour.
I never said there was a prophecy about UFOs just mentioned what Stan Deyo had said in his book "The Cosmic Conspiracy".
Ten minutes after I said it youre all calling me a UFO man and a believer in other worlds and green men, or so it seemed. Things like the coming world anti-christ, the mark of the beast (666), the great asian army called the kings of the east are all in Revelation. Christians believe that book along with the rest.
Its true Australias defences, despite the huge asian armies to Australias north, are less, less, than 3rd world. The citizens gun cupboard is genuinely empty... and needs filling.
The pentecostals are a strong section of the christian churches and should be respected. They went after the Gifts of The Holy Spirit like tongues, miracles, prophecy etc when other traditional churches said we dont want them.
What Ive said, over months, is my christian belief, including the prophecies on an invader which so many christians I have met also believe in.
I think there is a gang of 5 or 6 or so here that just want to manipulate what BOAZ_David and I say for the joy of "sticking it in". Sometimes its hard not to relaliate against that.
No way Im dancing for any of you guys.
I see most of you as current UNI students

Gibo: "No way Im dancing for any of you guys"

That's OK Gibo - you're entertaining enough as it is without having to dance as well.

I dunno how you conclude that we're uni students. I'm not, for the record, though I do have the benefit of a tertiary education.

Perhaps that makes me the product of some lefty academic indoctrination process. I believe this process is known as 'critical reasoning.'

As far as prophecies go - whether it's about flying saucers or otherwise, you believe in prophecies.
I don't see you referring to your demonic posts there either.

And it's patently obvious you set great store by these 'cosmic conspiracies' of Stan Deyo. A discredited charlatan.

"The citizens gun cupboard is genuinely empty... and needs filling."

You've yet to persuade me of the logic of your stance here, because it appears to be one hell of a contradiction.

You say you're no in favour of arming the populace.
You say we need more than a mere army reserve, and there should be an armed section of the public.

You make no mention how to differentiate as to how we determine who these armed people are, while simultaneously trying to tell us that the world is going down a crime-infested sex-crazed toilet.
At the same time, you claim whatever you're proposing is to be vastly different to the army reserve.

You say our army is third world, but you don't back it up with information. You say the gays hate you because you speak of their life of sin - you don't have any reason why it's sinful, except biblical dogma. 'The gays' aren't hurting you, but you're hurting them.

You say many other christians agree with you. Again, no backing.

The point I've made repeatedly in this thread, is that anyone can interpret a religon in any manner of ways. Some interpretations are quite ugly, be they the vile fanatics at the westboro church, or the heinous actions of a militant muslim suicide bomber.

Your interpretation is one of many. Not as ugly as some, but more paranoid than most. I'd hope it's a distinctly rare one.

This will be interesting. Here is one of Gibo's beliefs that may have some basis in fact. I'm not sure if any of those he refers to are currently at Uni but I suspect that most do have tertiary qualifications. At least his claim may once have been true. Thats a lot better than most of the beliefs he posts about.

For the record I'm not a current Uni student and have not been for quite a few years. So neither TurnRightThenLeft or I are currently at Uni. Are any of Gibo's mob of uni students actually uni students?

R0bert

I read.
I comprehended.
I laughed my arse off.

I take heart in the fact that the views espoused by Gibo and whoever he talks to are never going to become mainstream, despite the internet. I also take heart in the fact that if any of his prophecies did come true (as idiotic as that sounds) that he would be amongst the first against the wall (see line 3 of this post).

Dear Robert,

I finished uni. many years ago. So no, I'm not a current uni. student.

Perhaps Gibo - is referring to our tertiary qualifications only?

Dear BD,

I have no further wish to discuss my beliefs with you.

And, as for discussing Islam - seeing as you said that I have "no clue about true Islam," my opinion on that subject should be irrelevant to you!

Er, I confess to having a degree too. But it was conferred a very long time ago :)

Though I've not locked horns with Gibo, until a couple of days ago I engaged with BD - so I don't know if I am included in the Gang to which Gibo refers or not.

But if so, I must be the very personification of all that he holds to be wrong with this forum: no, I'm not a Uni student either ...I (gasp, shudder) TEACH Uni students.

(Fade out as she creeps guiltily back to her evil plans to convert yet another generation to her New Age, Leftist, Marxist, Feminazi, Atheistic, Adulterous, Ivory Towered, Unrealistic, Fag Hagging ways....)

Bit older than most here my education ended in sixth class.
Went on average one day in two my most memorable moment saw me away working but Doc Halorhan my teacher they say tore up my report card in front of the school he would have liked how I turned out he won a seat for the ALP I think.
Passed two subjects with flying colors emptying the rubbish bins, and returning the milk bottles.
BOAZ DAVID, mate, are you sure you do not have something to say here?

Wasnt thinking of you Romany as any problem:)
If youre teaching another generation like the above few, perhaps you could squeeze in a bit of Luke chapter 21 and John's Revelation.
It would be good if the next generation and even the present one knew before-hand what was coming, so as to lessen the impact on their minds when it does.
Seen the mark of the beast?
Theyre doing it now in small places here and there.
Its destined to go global and the Bible say we are not to take it (Revelation 14:9-11).
We dont join with the coming antichrist or satans new money system.
Theres no way someone is going to stick a microchip on my right hand so they can watch my daily travels.

FOXY....

I presented you with "information" which is relevant to our discussion overall.

I expected you to at least have the ethics and open mindedness to at least 'read' what is clearly one of the most pernicious pieces of writing to ever exist. It is 'that' writing, and those who espouse such ideas, which are the danger which must be faced...

It shows clear and unmistakable evidence of why your case about 'tolerance and understanding' needs to be re examined as to the 'extent' of that tolerance.

So..now, in good faith, I'll ask you to remove your head from the sand, and please read that article, and then.. you will have some respect.

At this point, all I'm seeing is a person who not 'cannot' but "will not" expose themselves to anything which is likely to upset their point of view.

Now.. you know the word for that right? "bigotry/narrow mindedness/closed mindedness" etc etc.
Limiting your information base to only that which supports your view, is decidedly narrow minded.

I generally do at least look at material offered to me criticizing my viewpoint, and..I assess it. Let me give you an example.

My claim "Islam is violent and warelike by nature" (Doctrinal/historical level)

Counter claim "ur wrong, in fact it is peaceful"

Now.. the simple and open minded approach to resolving this difference is.. shock horror.. EVIDENCE.

I refute the counter claim, by presenting 'evidence'..
The counter claimant can then dispute that refutation as a cross examiner would do, and so it goes.

But when the likes of you do not even have the honesty to persue such a legitimate course, I can only conclude that you are fearful, bigoted or have other reasons for not wishing to examine real evidence

Dear BD,

Why are you assuming that I didn't read the site that you suggested?

I simply don't care to discuss anything with you.

Cheers.

Gibo takes a rest.
I need a rest from this place.
Its a nice quiet back-water of a website is the National Forum to come to... but the mind set is so frequently high brow.
No offence, any more than you wish.
Its not a site for simple folks with no degrees or letters after their names.
I have a good christian church-going friend who always says, "keep it simple stupid".
He's right.
Conversation is best when its kept simple.
One might add landscape, and adventure, and simple stories of good men and women and happy events... but heavy philosophy and the high brow response/attack doesnt improve the two-way.
It clogs the pipes.
Our beginnings are of course with Adam and Eve in the Garden at Eden tending the greenery and talking to God and fellowshiping with Him and the animals...Genesis 2:15 (for those who like references, though not all do).
Most of you young guys are too complex. (I hate what UNI's do to our youth. The kids go in and get contaminated with all of the Charlie Darwin/survival of the fittest theory stuff and end up... well..."nobodys" connected to Gods Kingdom. Is it not so?).
Please listen to BOAZ_David. He's a good christian soul. See you next season. God bless. Dont forget what I said about the invader.
Now... to the big bright world, away from quiet backstreams. In need? Jesus is always there.

Gibo, if you are still reading I suspect that when you say keep it simple you mean something similar to saying that it's simpler to say the world if flat because that's easier to understand rather than dealing with complexities of a spherical world.

Sometimes some threads develop into deep intellectual discussion revolving around the merits or otherwise of some philosopher but this one has been simple. You have made allegations about other posters and refused to back them up with evidence (which if the allegations were true would be readily available).

Nothing high brow, it's a simple matter of honesty and integrity.
Of truth having some meaning.

The is plenty of space for those with limited education but those who refuse to allow reason to enter the discussion may find themselves uncomfortable here.

R0bert

As I am basically Gibos problem I would like to leave the thread with these thoughts.
We can never know the people we post with not truly, we can form ideas about them, ever give them an age.
Let me tell you we will be wrong as much as we are right, my ham radio hobby is like that words and voices in any form are at best an idea.
I am far Gibo from your well educated young man, but it turns out you are not the youth I thought of.
Your ideas are the ones I have avoided all my life extremist ones.
Do you know what hurts? nothing Gibo said, no rational person could look for anything worthwhile there.
David Boaz it was you, see even now I see some good in you, constant preaching is not yet rubbing me the wrong way.
I understand your fears about the extreme in Islam, but not your view they are all like that.
But I feel you should have said more about the defamations Gibo used your Gods name to print.
If I wished to be unkind I could quote from the old testament all next week, and we would see a far different God, not flicking over the pages we do not like.
The thread however bought interest and that was good, David even now , you do not like my mob, but do you think the ALP, Kevin Rudd, is a communist front?

Dear Foxy....

if you did read that site....then you can see exactly how horrifying it is, and how dangerous... and possibly how it upsets your image of Islam ?

Not discussing it with me? well thats ur choice. But a fair minded person would at least have the honesty to say "Yes.. I see why you are concerned.. this is awful..." instead...you just close up shop...

There is a name for that Foxy. Now.. having read it.. and knowing fully what Islam stands for, when unrestrained by 'Western Niceties'...you promote a new thread "Muslims in Australia" where you seek to highlight their contributions?

Why make it "Muslim" contributions ? Doesn't that imply you are in fact promoting their faith?

I'd much rather read something about 'Good Citizenship' where not the religion of the people is the issue..but the actions of individuals.

As soon as you mention the 'faith'...aah..that becomes an entirely different debate.

If I did a thread "The wonderful contribution of the Catholics to Australia"...how long do you think it would be until those abused by priests loomed large and lively and spoke about..'CHILD ABUSE BY CATHOLIC PRIESTS'

You see..good for the goose..good for the gander.

The real problem though..is that Islam differs from Catholicism. Islam permits.. approves of child abuse. Catholicism does not.

We can look at Catholic Priests who abuse children and denounce them rightly and completely on every level. Try that with a Muslim who knows their faith well.

About giving "love".Anybody can do that without religion!
The point is NOT to expect it back. That ONLY makes you a great person. Project love to Gibbo so he will feel it, and if anyone wants to put the christian/muslim/jewish etc. spin on it that'll be their misconception.

Dear Boazy,

Of course I understand where you're coming from. I understand only too well. But I find it rather tedious to argue with you about it all the time, and your patronising attitude doesn't help.

As I've stated ad nauseaum - there are bad people in all religions.
I'm sure that if I was to put in the time and effort - I could find
sites that would portray the ugly side of the Old Testament. If you look for 'ugliness' hard enough - you'll find it in anything.

Not all Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the literal and inerrant word of God, nor do all of them believe that Islam requires strict conformity to all the religious and moral precepts in the Qur'an. The character of Islamist movements varies greatly throughout the world -they are so complex and diverse.

Some Islamists resort to terrorism, and some do not. Some espouse leftist political and economic programs, borrowing ideas from Marxism and other varieties of socialism, while others are more conservative.

Another important factor is the Islamists' resentment of Western political and economic domination of the Middle East. But I won't go into all that here - this information is available through - Encyclopedia Britannica - online. If you're interested you can look it up.

As I wrote in my previous post - I don't want to keep on having arguments with you. So not discussing things is the only recourse open to me - because discussion does not achieve anything - to me it's an exercise in futility - and I'm tired.

I also have a copy of The Jerusalem Bible at home - so I don't need to have the Bible preached to me.

Cheers.

Well said Foxy.

Look, boaz, allow me another analogy which portrays the situation.

Lets say there was horrendous crime being perpetrated by an Italian mafia, somewhere in Australia.

It's fair enough to condemn the acts. You can even go and whip up a lynch mob against them, by highlighting your little pieces of youtube, perhaps outlining some brutal acts carried out by Italian gangsters.

You can get your lynch mob together with a rallying cry "yes! Time to stop the crime! Lets go clean out these mobsters who are threatening our livelihoods!"

You get the crowd all riled up and ready to go get the mobsters, but before you do, instead of saying "let's go get these mafia bosses" you then start yelling "we're all here! Great! Let's go turf out any Italian Australians! Look at what they're doing! Yaah! Get em!"

Everyone has halted behind you. They're going... "uh... what? Are you nuts?"

Yes, there are ugly regimes, ugly beliefs, ugly people.

There's a BILLION muslims. Most of them aren't any of the above.
You can scaremonger all you want, but they come in all kinds, just like Christians. Okay, there haven't been as many violent acts against civilians committed by christians in recent times but then again, if you consider the number of people in the muslim world that have died at the hands of the west - be it intentional or otherwise - you can see why there is anger, even if violence against civilians is never justified.

And you know what exacerbates it - imagine if in this Italian Australian scenario, there was some ethnic group that hated Italians - think the serb/croat divide.
What would you think, if the person whipping up this hysteria belonged to a group that was the prime opponent of this section of the public - i.e. your fundamentalist christian view vs muslims.

Well... I call this real progress.. Foxy and TRTL...

1/ Foxy CAN actually see where I'm coming from. (*phew*)

2/ TRTL has a good handle on the dangers of 'whipping up public sentiment'

Ok.. lets see where both of you allow stererotyping to control your thinking.

Foxy first.. "but there are bad people in all religions" agreed.

But the point I've also been trying to make..and yes.. ad nauseum, is that the religion itself is evil.. most of its followers are fine.
Ananda Marga=bad
Islam=bad
Children of God=bad
Buddhism=no threat
Hindusim=can be ok but much potential for bad also.
Zoroastrianism=No threat
Sikhism=dangerous.
Sufism (Mystical Islamic offshoot)= No threat.
Bahai=No threat.

Hitler didn't start to squash the Jews immediately. He waited till he had power.. but all along.. the phrases in Mein Kampf were always there..and to an astute observer, would be seen for what they really were.

Foxy if you couple the sentiments of that Masud site.. which connects 'Allah's curses' to real world punishment..and then you connect that to Surah 9:30... and add to that the existence of Israel now.. and the unending stream of anti Israel propoganda.. you have a volatile mix which is just waiting to go off.. kaaaaBOOOM..
If I'm wrong in this analysis...I'm happy to be shown my error.. in fact rather than emotion.

TRTL.. The point you make.. is why I've been advocating change at the 'policy' level... if you don't tweak your policy on many levels such as

-Unity rather than Multiculturalism and diversity.
-Migration controls to ensure would be migrants understand OUR laws and committ to obey them OVER and above their own religion...

I think you let your imagination run a bit wild there :) this is OLO not outback Kentucky

Perhaps.. I'm trying to highlight REASONS why we need to examine and change policy...to avoid such 'lynch mobs' No..not perhaps.. it IS the reason :)

Then..have we come full circle ? Will foxy now say "tolerance and understanding" and will you simply re-state other arguments?

boaz, I'm simultaneously bemused and disgusted by your religion stereotyping. This is at the core of our disagreement.

You say the Islamic religion is evil.

Wrong. Totally wrong, and your faith makes you hopelessly biased.

The rational answer, is that there are only good or evil people, from every religion on the planet.
They can commit good acts or bad acts.

And to reinforce a hopelessly labored point you're just not getting, there are any manner of interpretations.

Your OT god is ugly and I wouldn't have a bar of anything to do with it. I'd have no hestitation calling it evil.

It's evil. Torturing Job was an evil act of your god, but you refuse to admit that. Frankly, I think that's a cowardly act to justify the bits of your faith that don't quite fit, but I suppose you need to do that in order for it to seem reasonable.

So.

You won't judge your god's actions - just everybody elses.

You'll call them evil, but you refuse to condemn the torture of Job, an innocent man.

And to think you're in some kind of position to judge the morality of these makes me think you should just add whatever brand of Christian yours is to them mix, tick it off as evil too, and just be done with it.

But that would be just as dumb.

A concept is just a concept. Only the people that carry it out can be good or evil - and most of the world's billion muslims aren't evil. In fact, most of them are a lot less 'evil' than the last post makes you appear to be.

BOAZ David I have never felt the open dislike for you that some have, but you highlight your weakness.
See while I believe in no God I admire much of the rules to live by man put into those Holy books.
My question to you went unanswered.
While you throw bricks at all Muslims you refuse to look in your own backyard.
A RADICAL, FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN, has been seen here claiming such idiotic things that it in a bizarre way defames those from his side of the road as much as anyone.
Your concerns are limited to one religion yet you let your team down by not telling us your God is not like that.