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America A Debate

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America we all have opinions some even have fears about this country but as my life progresses I have concerns.
I have an understanding of the great good America has done for the world, in fact I am a supporter of America,but.
Election year in fact highlights my concerns it seems more than ever a poll about people not policy's and like it or not the western world needs America.
If this country retreats back into Isolation in defense after the poll how will that affect the rest of us?
Can they continue to spend so much on war without harming the economy?
Who will win the election? is America truly going to have another Clinton as leader?
Much to talk about many questions.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 27 January 2008 9:25:33 AM
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I reckon the only reason we 'need' the yanks is because they made it that way. The south pacific is MORE than capable of creating its own economy. Include China, Asia, Japan, all the Islands, the Kiwis and Aus and we'd be more than self sufficient. Possibly it's isolationist, but no one can deny the potential, and that would have th eworld begging for for inclusion. One day we WILL need to consider our own backyard. Especially if this oil shortage is a reality.

CRikey, off topic again lol. Kinda related tho. We need to start considering what's best for us, and not let the yanks make those decisions for us.

That's kinda what I'm hoping Rudd is about. Hoping.
Posted by StG, Sunday, 27 January 2008 3:57:04 PM
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My current gripe is to do with America but related to our media.

I think most here will have a passing interest in who actually becomes President but, until then, could not care less about their pre-selection process and the circus that goes n with it.

I blame our media for being lazy and not chasing our local news. They get this rubbish all packaged up from CNN and use it. Perhaps things will change when our Parliament resumes. I certainly hope so The present daily dose of the US election garbage is a pain in the bum.
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 27 January 2008 4:35:48 PM
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The Chinese cant be trusted StG. Working with them would only benefit their take-over of us folk. They want the south pacific for themselves. Reports from the christian mission field (1980s) say that they call us New South China and New China in chinese classrooms. Islam has a global plan so does China and Australia is wide open. Not a gun in the cupboard for a big incursion. China will not co-operate, in the end, with anyone. They have their secret plans. Chen Yonglin says they have 1,000 spies here. These spies are here for the take-over. The initial penetration. Cameras and notepads and all of the information travelling back to China to the planners of the great outward march. All they have to do is get rid of the USA... and that too is part of the plan. The big part. Prophecies and "vision" revelations from The Lord abound amongst the christians worldwide of the USA falling before a sneak Chinese/Russian attack. I believe it will happen. It truly makes me ill to see Oz politicians sucking up to China. We join in their evil when we bend our knees to them. They kill their own teenagers (Tiananmen Square), murder and harvest body parts for a dollar or two, they shoot their criminals and bill the families for the bullet. They kill, steal and destroy in Tibet. They are like a plague of hoppers. Hoppers from the pits of hell. And all the while... the smile. The pleasantries. On the day of the great outward march the Bible says we will see 200,000,000 asian confederacy soldiers on the loose (the kings of the east) moving west towards Israel and possibly south into Australasia...and no USA anywhere in sight to stop them. Ive said all of this before. There are prophecies amongst the christians here about half of Australia being lost to an asian enemy. Demon soldiers on Australian soil. We have to stop the dance with China and get ready. A well armed, far scatterd home guard army is a good start.
Posted by Gibo, Sunday, 27 January 2008 5:35:45 PM
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Well I am from left of center, but ww1 and ww2 saw few who did not understand how much we needed America.
Yes self interest often drives them ,but it did so with England too.
And so it will be with the next world leader, if that is China we will soon see a difference.
I think most of us are following the American polls, I am truly interested, who will lead the Democrats?
Sorry but I have concerns Clinton may just turn voters away from them and I would be a Democrat if it was my country.
What a chance to change that country, first ever black president, I hold hopes.
I dream of an America that understands others culture and just maybe like we do with them, picks up some and adopts cultures from other country's.

Sorry I understand it offends some but in truth this leader is in my view the worst I have known in my lifetime.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 27 January 2008 6:45:50 PM
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Don't reckon anyone's saying write them off, Belly. Just keep at the arms length we need them to be. Endlessly pulling the "we would've died without them" card out won't alter the fact that we are dependant on them. The yanks financially fart and we have to hand over a testicle at the bowser. Yep, hoorah for them for jumping in the wars, finally. How long do ya wanna keep scratching their backs for it?.

Whether you like it or not Gibo, China's stepping up to the stage. We can alienate (more like ourselves really) them, or jump on board and trade with them. Capitalism, my friend. MAkes the world revolve, and puts food on your table. Jump in, or become a third world state.
Posted by StG, Sunday, 27 January 2008 7:15:19 PM
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It is very wide this debate and we do not know from where to start and where to finish. I will try to divide it in smaller parts and make our contribution easier.

1 The good and bad sides of USA
2 Elections in USA
3. war in Iraq and Afganistan
4. USA and its competitors
5 USA and Australia
6. USA Ekonomy
7. USA and UN

1. a) Good Sides USA is a democratic, high industrialized, civilized country with strong military forces.
b)Bad sides USA has a weak social and public health system, Its democracy suffer from the strong role of the mass media and the electoral system. Their freedom about the guns causes many problems in the country. In the name of terror threats USA last years limited the human and civil rights.
Although USA has a very strong economy, there are millions of people without enough food, homeless and without health cover.
Its military superpower is not used with the right way and it invades in other countries, or it is involved in the internal affairs of other countries. USA violates the International law and underestimate the International organizations. The Bush Government violated the International law and invaded to Iraq, did not sign the KYOTO Protocol about the environment, did not become member of the International Criminal Court and ignore its decisions, violate the human rights mainly for Guantanamo prisoners. USA is among a small number of Countries which continue the death penalty.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Posted by ASymeonakis, Sunday, 27 January 2008 7:41:06 PM
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When you look at the broader bilateral relationship, there is no doubt that Australia has a dynamic and diverse relationship with America. And the simplistic picture of our alliance does have powerful appeal at a time of great anxiety over the terrorist threat.

The alliance can be seen as a straight-out insurance policy for Australia. If we go along with whatever America wants in order to demonstrate our credentials as a friend, America will come to our aid in our time of need. Few are in doubt that Australia, like other Western countries, will face "a time of need" at some stage down the track.

The problem with this scenario, which was always put forward by the proponents of the Bush-Howard alliance, was that it carries a fundamental contradiction.

America styles itself as the global defender and exporter of democracy, the superpower that stands for liberty, and this is how many of its champions have supported the foray into Iraq.

Given America's much-vaunted respect for democracy and democracies, it is hard to see circumstances in which, if Australia took a slightly more independent stance and refused to automatically join every military adventure the White House embarked upon, it would sit there and leave us to our fate.

That seems a fantastic notion. Then again, we live in a time in which to even raise the mildest query about the wisdom of the Bush White House drew instant accusations of anti-Americanism.

Let us hope that there will be changes under the new administration, whoever they may be. Australia's vital security interest is concerned in the Indonesian archipelago... Perhaps it is about time that Australia took a new page out of the US book and began to see the world through the prism of Australian, not perceived American, national interests. The two nations' interests don't always necessarily coincide.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 27 January 2008 9:10:42 PM
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America is a great country, its just the big corporate greedy guts's which arn't :)

We can have an Anzus Alliance, but they want to evergreen the patents on medicine and kill many of us who can then not afford them...grrrrrrrrrr
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 27 January 2008 9:15:17 PM
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Let's be honest about America. USA is a big democratic country with some weakness of cause but sure a big democratic country.
The problem with America is that it does not export genuine democracy or in some case it is the guard of brutal, undemocratic regimes. Saudi Arabian Monarchy is one from the worst political systems on our planet. Forget workers rights, women rights, civil rights, human rights, a stone age system. This system stand on Americans guns and support. American do not care at all for people's rights of this country but ONLY for their own benefits, for the black gold!! One day we must use our brain to understand why many Arabs and Muslims hate American. American supports many other dictators worldwide. This kind of behavior creates huge problems to American and other western countries, even when they really interested to create something good.
American is used to respect a democratic government if it follows their policy and obey to their orders if not or opposed the American policy then no problem to demolish the government or creates huge problems in the country.
American of cause their superiority in weapons not only ignores the rights from other countries but even they ignores the United Nations or other international bodies. Many times they violated the international law and act against the decisions from UN.
American use very often their forces world wide but they are not member of the International Criminal Court and they ignore its decisions. About 25% of environment pollution caused from America but it do not undertake its responsibilities to protect the environment and save our planet.
In few words I could describe America as a SELFISH IRRESPONSIBLE INTERNATIONAL BULLIER AND COWBOY!!
Antonis Symeonakis
Adelaid
Posted by ASymeonakis, Monday, 28 January 2008 5:08:43 AM
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In your post Foxy you highlight a difference between Australia and America.
We changed our path in the election, we no longer follow without thought you can bet we will not do so for some time.
The difference in my view is I do not think America will elect a government that will change the way America thinks and acts.
The same forces that drive some on one side of American politics drove our deposed government.
America is both good and bad, Democratic yet has one thousand Chile,s or such in its history.
Yes Saudi Arabia is not a success story, it is a shameful sham, that the land of the free could impose such a life on so many women is a crime against freedom.
That street people can be expected as normal in such numbers or that minimum wages still sees so many go hungry in such a rich country.
I will continue to be both concerned about America and hopeful they can elect a far better caring government.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 28 January 2008 5:52:52 AM
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Dear Belly,

Don't misunderstand me. America and Australia have remarkably similar characteristics and experiences that sustain their relations. They are both vibrant New World democracies - two of just a few countries in the world that sustained democratic political systems throughout the 20th century. Their central institutions are drawn from a common heritage, in particular the English language and the system of common law.

They both achieved independent nationhood under federal constitutions - indeed, the Fathers of Federation in Australia looked to the US Constitution for inspiration. Many features of their national government even the names of the two Houses in the Australian Federal Parliament - the Senate and the House of Representatives - reflect the American experience. They are both lands of opportunity. They have built up strong economies that provide high standards of living to our people.

They have welcomed millions of migrants, and migrant energy, dedication and diversity have enriched their societies.

They are both lands of freedom. They value freedom of speech, religion and association. They pursue free trade in the world at large. They are committed to the rule of law at home and abroad. Americans of course are familiar with what could be called the Paul Hogan or Steve Irwin outback adventurer stereotype. This reflects one aspect of modern Australia. However, it is only one, and a minor one at that.

Indeed, Australia is one of the most urbanized societies in the world, with a vibrant, diverse and cosmopolitan culture. Australians have been making their names internationally in diverse fields since the nineteenth century. They have their share, for example, of Nobel Prize laureates, such as Peter Doherty, now Professor of Biomedical Research and Chair of Immunology at St Jude's Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee.

As we all know, there are many Australians working in the film industry - some of them household names in America - have been honored in the Academy Awards in Hollywood over many years.

No doubt Australia has a dynamic and diverse relationship with America.

But it should be an equal relationship - not one of infantile dependence.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 28 January 2008 2:08:19 PM
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Between the 1950s-1970s with the internationalisation we moved a away from Bretton Woods [1944]. With the Nixon Economic Shock [1971?], currencies were revalued and devalued, rather than floated. To protect the US against the consequences of its huge offshore debt Bretton Woods was abandoned. As the US now has to share its economic power with the EU, Japan, increasing China and potentially India; perhaps, the IMF needs to develop a new system. An interim measure might be a standard against a basket of currencies. But ultimately the Free Market must operate. If the US looses, that its fate.
Posted by Oliver, Monday, 28 January 2008 3:58:18 PM
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I fully agree with every single word and thought in your post Foxy.
I however have concerns and in truth my pride in my party's great start here in government will no doubt still find some room for my concerns at home too.
I question much about the western worlds directions, as mentioned in this thread the cost of medicines and the fact only some can get true health care in America is such an issue.
In debating America we can find much to be proud of and some that concerns us, maybe it is because we do in fact need them so much.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 28 January 2008 5:03:47 PM
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Dear Belly,

I'm glad that we're in agreement because you know that I look up to you so very much... You always tell it as you see it - and always from the heart.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 28 January 2008 5:25:51 PM
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Belly "Self interest" drives everyone, English, American, German, Japanese.

"Self Interest" and how it effects and develops a natural bias to the interests of our children, extended family, community (tribe) and nation is a primary driver common to all people.

My experience of Americans (which is more than just in passing) is they are people like us, in some ways slightly more xenophobic than the Europeans who colonised the world but (admirably) far less influenced by matters of "class" and "faux status".

As "individuals" you would be hard pressed to distinguish them in terms of their personal values to an Australian or an Englishman, maybe a little less inclined to social services largely because of a lifetime of less expectation for government to interfer in ones daily life.

As for politics, I do not pretend to understand all the nuances of their political system. I believe it works in the sense that it is a democratic process with an executive separate from a legislature and separate again from a judiciary.

That Americans may elect Presidents who some folk here dislike is something that those with the dislike will just have to grow to tolerate.

I am sure many here would vigorously object if an American refused to tolerate who we elect as our political representatives.
Posted by Col Rouge, Tuesday, 29 January 2008 3:41:17 PM
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Col Rouge you are right Australia's leader however can not change the world by one action.
This debate is wider than the Sydney Harbor heads, but we could go on forever.
Think of the rebuilding of post ww1 Europe, America paid for much of it.
And compare that action with American medical problems of the very poor.
I ask why is profit of more importance than health?
We have been lucky here so far no I blindly hate America posts but maybe it is early yet.
I have no answers as to why the poor must suffer if sick, but I have hope it will not always be so in America or any other place.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 29 January 2008 4:50:05 PM
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Gotta disagree with you there Banjo, I think people in Australia are indeed interested in the Presidential Primaries taking place in the US. I know I check the New York Times website every second day or so to see how each party's candidates are faring.

That being said, if I want American news, I go to American sites. The Australian media could probably give less coverage, with say, a minor mention after each primary, with the current status of delegates supporting each candidate. (Obama and Clinton are neck in neck at 9 each, and McCain's pulling out ahead of Romney and Huckabee. Thompson's bitten the dust and Edwards is struggling. Giulani's still warming up for super Tuesday. Exciting stuff).

Americans are warm people, even if they elected a half-arsed government. We can hardly criticise them too much for that, especially given the numbers (remember the Florida polling incidents?). If it's criticism from the left, then we should keep in mind Australia democratically elected Howard.

Though what should be noted, is that by and large, both sides of politics are agreeing that this Bush administration has been a failure. Whether it's because they didn't pursue genuinely economically conservative policies in relation to the size of government, or just that the reasons, or alternatively the handling of the Iraq war was flawed (i.e. dismissing the Iraqi army).

This is why few analysts think the Republican party has much hope of success. The democrats already hold more seats.

So, it's likely we'll be seeing Obama or Clinton in the White House. I think there'll be many parallels that can be drawn with the Australian election. Whilst it'll be a victory for the progressive side of politics over the conservative, it's also important to note that it isn't a victory for all of those who I'll loosely define as the left, because as is the case with Rudd, the new US leader will still be more economically conservative than past progressives, due in part to the evolution of the world economy, and due in part to the current financial situations we're faced with.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Tuesday, 29 January 2008 5:08:47 PM
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America is a dying Empire. We had best look elsewhere & cultivate friendships with our neighbours. It is no longer a democracy. All political parties are too much indebted to big business. It is run by Eisenhower's "military-industrial complex". The Patriot Act has destroyed individual freedoms. Talk about Chinese spies! Chalmers Johnson said the CIA has 200 listening posts in Australia. Talk about global warming..>Hubbert on the Nature of Growth...
The US Department of Defense (DoD) is the largest oil consuming government body in the US and in the world
“Military fuel consumption makes the Department of Defense the single largest consumer of petroleum in the U.S” [1]
“Military fuel consumption for aircraft, ships, ground vehicles and facilities makes the DoD the single largest consumer of petroleum in the U.S” [2]
According to the US Defense Energy Support Center Fact Book 2004, in Fiscal Year 2004, the US military fuel consumption increased to 144 million barrels. This is about 40 million barrels more than the average peacetime military usage.
By the way, 144 million barrels makes 395 000 barrels per day, almost as much as daily energy consumption of Greece.
The US military is the biggest purchaser of oil in the world. <,
The US did not save Aus in WW 1 or 2, in fact in WW 2 we helped save America. The Japanese never had intentions of invading Aus.
We are seeing the end of an evil Empire.
Posted by achenne1, Tuesday, 29 January 2008 6:57:43 PM
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Love that remark, if we are seeing the end of an evil empire we are seeing the end of freedom, our freedom.
Surely then China would be the world leader? love the way they Handel those who do not agree, don't you?
While my concerns about America will continue we must not stray far from reality both religious fundamentalists and the truly lost left want to bring them down.
Consider for a while what would they replace America with?
How many of us here in this forum would be ripped out of bed in the middle of the night maybe killed for having put in print things we have in the last 12 months?
Be honest now freedom is not a thing both prospective world leaders would even consider.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 30 January 2008 5:00:26 AM
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"top gear"

"top gear" is a rev heads program, brit based. recently sbs ran a show done in the south-east of the usa. the three presenters each bought a 'junker' in the gun-ridden black/cuban slums of miami, and drove it through violent red-neck land to new orleans. it was a year since katrina visited, but the place still looked like fallujah after 'liberation' by the u. s. marine corps.

i did some growing up in this area, in the 50's, and was amazed at the changes. truly they have become a banana republic, one with a bigger military than the rest of the world combined.

the rich have gotten a stranglehold on the nation. the combination of religious fanaticism, poor education, and media control means the situation is likely to continue toward the impoverishment of the middle class and consequent collapse of what they refer to as 'democracy' in that benighted land.

if ozzies had any role to play in setting national policy, i would suggest we sever any commercial and diplomatic ties as quickly and smoothly as possible, to minimize spill-over from the decay of the american economy and its consequent military adventures.

alas, we don't have that role. so i suggest we all look toward uluru at noon on feb. 1, and all wish really hard for a lotto win. that's what we do instead of citizenship, right?
Posted by DEMOS, Wednesday, 30 January 2008 6:49:03 AM
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Demos. I have hopes that Rudd, although not the Messiah, will concentrate on good ties with China & India & S.E Asia & get us out of these doomed military adventures for US Oil Companies in Afghanistan & Iraq laughingly called "The War On Terror". We can hope the balance of power ends up with the US displaced by a range of players, including China, Japan, India and Europe. The US has done all it can to bring itself to ruination. We must hope it doesn't take us with it.
Posted by achenne1, Wednesday, 30 January 2008 5:06:23 PM
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