Sunday Bar B Q it always happens another do not tell anyone but story
Seems the daughter has a new job
$10 an hour Adult single mum 5 in the hand $5 in the books paid as $15 an hour.
Not enough hours to interfere with SS payments first two days? 3 hour shifts as a trial no pay but given some stock, near expiry date, it is a food shop.
Trolley pushers most big shopping centers $7 or $8 an hour false name stay on the dole or pension.
Self interest or fear? I truly do not know what it is but non will come forward to tell of these jobs but every one of them complains to me ending with do not tell any one.
I dream of the day we will see an end to this theft, so people in real need get real jobs and company's can no longer get contracts that steal

I dream of the day where nobody ever has to take a $13/hr job.
It's pretty absurd that I can earn up to 10 times as much as this just because I happen to know how to type gibberish into a computer that it can understand.

Until I have walked in the shoes of anyone who is in an unfortunate-enough position to rely on social security payments, I'm extremely wary of criticising them for feeling compelled to attempt squeezing a little more for themselves out of the system.

At this time in the thread I must do what I hate most, divert the thread, my next post will get it back on track.
Wiz you must know I have nothing but respect for you and the way you think on this issue but.
As one of 16 kids my friend who never earned the wages you speak of I understand what it is to be poor.
My parents went hungry so I could eat, often.
They told each of their children the value of work, each son went on to be a hard worker.
Even today I want a world that has no children sitting down for pumpkin and potato only for tea and the skins only for breakfast.
This gutless practice from both the boss and the worker undermines true work.
It says I will work for less than minimum wage and the tax payer can subsidize me.
We must not present all unemployed with halos.
Some are using the system some are as work shy as you can get, if we could stop fraud, please let us stop fraud!
We could spend the savings on more for the needy not the greedy
more true story's exist will post a few next .

Belly, I'm just not convinced it's a problem worth getting upset about, given the amount by which the wealthiest of us attempt to squeeze more from the system by reducing our tax, either legally or illegally.

(I'd actually be perfectly happy to pay more tax, as long as it was done automatically and I didn't have to think about it. But because our tax system is so complicated, there's been a few occasions where I couldn't find all the paperwork necessary to declare all my income, and hence didn't bother. On the other hand, I never claim deductions either.)

The posts so far seem to indicate to me the irresponsibility of so many people. I can sympathise with the many people that are unable to find work, but surely it indicates that people should be responsible for their own lives. My parents would love to have had more kids, but felt that they would not be able to educate and support more than two. Even so I remember sitting down to nothing but potato for a meal during the war. However, I had discipline and a sense of worth, honesty and personal responsibility drummed into me at an early age, which gave me a good grounding that I fear is missing with a lot of the population nowadays. I can remember the days when you didn't have to lock your doors for instance, but parents these days seem to perpetuate the idea that "the State" will look after you and that education is unimportant and wagging school is OK. You only have to look at the hoons who couldn't care less about others when they drive their cars and disturb the neighbourhood. Education and discipline begins at home otherwise we get a self perpetuating class that will never get the benefits of anything but an underclass devoted to crime, drugs and unemployment

Wizofaus, you must be very lucky to be earning such good money, as you obviously don't earn it from your analytical ability.

Stop feeling sorry for the dole bludgers, & comparing them to your own position. Instead, think of the large number of lower paid WORKERS, paying their taxes to support this scum.

Think of the apprentice, struggling to pay for the petrol to get to work. Think of the check out chick, at the supermarket, or the hardware store, or the store man, at the local warehouse. Most of these people have, after tax, less money than the bludger they are supporting.

Think of farmer, down the road, who pays these bludgers $150 in hand, to do a days work, can't get them to do a second day, let alone take the $750 a week he's offering to work full time.

Think about him worrying about paying the fine, if he gets caught, cheating the system when he can't find anyone who will work for a living.

Perhaps that computer has got you a bit too far away from the real world

Who do you reckon is doing your average taxpayer the most damage, half a dozen social security cheats or half a dozen multi millionaires using tax havens?

Why do we constantly hear these calls to punish people at the $5 end of the scale but rarely hear about people abusing the system at the $5million end of the scale?

Bond, Packer and Murdoch's kids all got subsidised by taxpayers during their study years because of convenient entitlement loopholes. Alexander Downer's daughter got a scholarship after she failed her degree. Why do we focus on punishing the folk at the little end of things while those at the big end get off scott free?

The argument that there are hordes of people abusing the system at the little end of things and only a few at the top doesn't hold. Most of the cases brought to court over social security fraud get kicked out of court. Taxpayers have spent squillions over the past few years in legal fees over paltry amounts owed by people who have nothing.

You shouldn't believe everything you see on sensationalist current affairs shows or read in tabloid or hear on talkback.

"I dream of the day where nobody ever has to take a $13/hr job.
It's pretty absurd that I can earn up to 10 times as much as this just because I happen to know how to type gibberish into a computer that it can understand.

Until I have walked in the shoes of anyone who is in an unfortunate-enough position to rely on social security payments, I'm extremely wary of criticizing them for feeling compelled to attempt squeezing a little more for themselves out of the system."
Posted by wizofaus, Monday, 14 January 2008 5:46:22 PM

I cannot better this. THANK-YOU!

WHEN we are AS critical and intolerant AND able to put a stop to the greed and excess of those who least need it; get back to me about this kind of 'excess' and I will take it on board.

It is an act of moral cowardice to consistently criticize this kind of default. Cowardice because this end of the monetary scale is a much easier target.

Boy! we really have become trained monkey's haven't we? The rich ARE getting richer while we chunder on about the least privileged and dob them in at every opportunity. Politicians and boardrooms all over the globe must have a real chuckle at how obediently we monitor ourselves

Hasbeen, yes I am extremely lucky - and I recognise it. Entirely through the nature of my upbringing (over which I had no control), I pretty much walked straight out of high school into a good paying job - I went to uni more because I wanted to than because I felt it would improve my career prospects. I can honestly (and somehow ashamedly) say I've never really had to endure a genuinely hard day's work in my life, nor have I ever had to know real financial difficulty, despite some quite poor more money management decisions along the way. Life will never be completely fair, but we could make it a lot fairer if we genuinely wanted to.

Of course there are people that cheat the system. No doubt some of them have no better motive than sheer laziness. But for every one of those there is somebody else breaking their back just to pull in enough money to pay the rent and keep food on the table, and I can't entirely blame them if they see an opportunity to do a little better for themselves that is technically against the rules - rules not generally made by someone in their position, I might add.

Often, attempts to crack on the undeserving cheaters end up punishing those who genuinely are trying to improve their station in life.

Try this: http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/tax-dodgers-laughing-as-the-poor-are-hounded/2007/12/14/1197568262862.html

My dad worked in a rubber factory did double shifts to earn extra money and died of a massive coronary at the age of 52. Mum worked as well. They never questioned their pay packet - they simply worked overtime and saved what they could. They didn't buy things if they couldn't afford them. They paid cash, when they were able to buy, as they did not believe in credit. It was a different time, a different generation. I was raised with the ethos - don't expect to be given anything - if you want something - you have to work for it. Nobody owes you a living.

Those were different times. To-day, people seem to have different expectations. I feel sorry for the youngsters who have to put up with getting paid a pittance, or feel they have to cheat the "system." They are the ones that are getting cheated.

If only they could see their own self worth... And, that their destiny is in their hands - with perseverance they can make it. I'd like to say to them "Put yourself into your own hands. Everybody has two. You can use them to get a hand-out, sit on them and do nothing, or you can use them to get a serious grip on yourself.

But when you've put yourself in your own good hands, don't forget to give yourself an occasional pat on the back. Say, 'Well done, pussy-cat, you're doing okay!"

snake your post is not related to the thread but if you are putting my parents down for having too many kids think about it.
So very many family's did just that, different times different views we got Fed on populate or perish talk.
None of my siblings stayed on social security for very long.
Can we stop the rubbish about the poor unemployed? please understand some plan not to work.
Some plan to get that cash in the hand, how about the honest business man up the road? paying true wages and competing against a thief!
I have walked in the shoes of the poor, and walked right our of them by my efforts.
I want a better life for the true poor not a helping hand for weak bosses to steal from us all or people who do the same.
I can get casual work for $21.80 an hour for most good hours sometimes overtime paid at good normal rates but some want only a job that preserves social security.

Ok, but let's look at why people "plan not to work". I've never known anyone who's grown up in a comfortable middle class lifestyle and then decided that living off government handouts is a good living (I do have one friend who does do it, but he has a genuine psychiatric condition, as is far from happy about it). These are people that grow up in an environment of hopelessness, miss out on many of the opportunities available to the more fortunate of us, and have to decide between 8 hours a day of hard labour for a minimum wage, or doing nothing and receiving only slightly less. If you're a single parent, the choice is even more difficult.

As others have pointed out, if we're seriously concerned about people cheating the system, let's look at the opportunities that those on effectively 6 or 7 figure salaries have to pay very little tax. Yes, many of these people are running businesses that provide employment to others and create wealth that we all benefit from, but they also very much rely on taxpayer-provided services in order to run those businesses, and plenty of them got where they are due to a fair dosage of good luck. It's perfectly reasonable that those of us that can afford it should contribute our share towards maintaining shared infrastructure and social services, but unquestionably many don't.

don't worry , that'll all change soon. well, I mean Kevin 07 promised, didn't he ?
Seriously, on the realistic side, underpayment is only there because there is too much overpayment.

Wiz., Chainsmoker & Ginx,

My own thoughts completely echo yours.

I was also lucky enough to grow up in an extremely privileged background and had many experiences that the average person merely dreams about. But then I spent eight years after fleeing back to Australia at the other end of the scale and have been homeless, jobless and alone with two kids to bring up, as quite a few people on this forum know. I have therefore intimate knowledge of life at the top of the heap and so far below it that I was floundering around in the middens.

It is undeniable that some people cheat welfare. It is equally undeniable that Welfare ...well "cheats" is too strong a word...but it certainly does the wrong thing by them. If that side of Centrelink SNAFUs got as much publicity as the dole cheaters do perhaps public perceptions might change. Welfare recipients, many of whom are poorly educated, have no representatives however, and up against a big Government department, have little or no chance of their voices being heard. Even the occasional story that does get a public airing certainly carries little weight: Welfare recipients as a group have no power and no clout.

I do not condone cheating and have never done. But I can whip up no fervour whatsoever against those who do. Yes. Its morally wrong and if it led to such people living a life of luxury and ease I would find it a bad gap in the system that should be plugged.

But it usually amounts to the fact that they can buy a mobile phone, or a second-hand computer, or rent a few more DVDs or whatever. They will still never own a house, buy a new car, go away on holiday packages, eat in decent restaurants.

It bloody poverty per se we should be attacking in this so-called Land of Plenty. Not the poor sods who are trapped by it.

I was not so lucky, but I do know that not even the most well meaning person could support the real theft that is taking place.
I am unconcerned about the tax man, but the theft is straight from the pockets of the true poor, just think what we could do with the savings.
Just maybe pay a living pension.
I always , sorry no offense, have trouble with the middle to high income earners views on poverty.
It is true that actions such as those I report hurt real jobs, real small business men, and it is a crime isn't it?
Consider one case in ten thousand 30 year old on the dole for ten years.
Got his first job, left after a week, it got in the way of his social life?
If social conscience blinds us to miss use of welfare payments I fear for the true poor.

Belly, what do you mean "straight from the pockets of the true poor"?

I thought you were complaining about dole-cheats. Dole money comes from all taxpayers, and mainly from middle to high income earners.

I pay more in tax than most of these people ever earn. In the scheme of things, it just honestly doesn't perturb me that there are those that try to extract higher social security payments than they are technically entitled to. I'm far more worried about why they're in a position to need those payments in the first place. Let's address the root causes, not the symptoms.

When sole parents were created in thew 1980"s we all felt sorry for them and the fatherless children ,today the new rich are the sole parents on the dole on the child support and getting cash in hand

Oh Brock, do your honestly believe that? How many single parents on benefits do you know well enough to be intimate with their financial affairs? Of those, how many are "rich"?

I do not doubt that that somewhere, someone is managing to live quite comfortably in the way you describe. I however have never met nor heard stories about friends of friends who were managing to do so. We have all, I guess heard the apocryphal tales, but hands up those who have had personal contact with this "class" of people?

My seven years of close association with single parent families on benefits was of people struggling to make ends meet...and all wondering where these so-called high-lifers were hanging out.

Were you employing irony when you spoke about single parents being "invented" in the eighties?

tax fraud

I would like to sue my former employer for 'tax fraud".

Actually i introduced my ex-boss to set up a chinese massage shop at sunshine plaza in sunshine coast. In exchange, when i quite the job he would provide me with a job reference letter by saying i did marketing xysis and well structured promotional strategy (which i did in deep).

Although he has 3 other massage shop in brisbane, i realize most of my employee never pay tax or pay a little amount of tax. Of coz he does pay tax but cheating on tax as well.

When the first day we open our shop at sunshine plaza (last sept), on the employee list which he regestered, he just put one staff onto the list (whom quite the job on nov..

Wiz please let me explain, in truth I do not think you understood my post.
I too, we are a minority, do not mind paying more tax if it gets a better life for those who must live on Social Security.
I would want every dollar saved from controlling fraud to be returned to the pool, not general funds.
Let us together look at what I have said, to do under the table deals as in post one is a crime, committed both by the boss and the worker.
Three times a crime, the wages paid is less than the minimum wage as I understand it.
The outcomes of this crime are.
1 no real job exists because of it.
2 the boss has cheated every one including his honest opposition.
3 while the worker is making some illegal money her actions are keeping her down ,she would be better of with a job not for a few dollars being used like a slave.
Not every one on social security is a victim hard as some find it some do not want to work ever, some do work in the cash economy and get social security.
I kid you not I would give 20% more of my total income to end poverty, if it like was for the real poor not those who use the system.

with the greatest of respect, it seems you are being taken in by the [failed] devices of the departed Howard mob, ie the red herrings to put you off the real fraud

Remember the "sting" on lawyers paying no tax on million dollar incomes - AG Williams said he would look into the loophole [maintenance trusts] but Howard got rid of him and gave us AG Ruddock

I devote a whole chapter to "Centrelink Matters" in my book and not one word re the Dole

see http://www.ablokesguide.com

Doc you march into the thread throw a far different issue on the table, run an add for your book and smugly wander of.
I can see a point proved here. the cleaner may know more about the issue than the teacher.
I do truly get a grin out of the Howard comparison, every day! yes I still can not let it go! I grin in joy at his defeat.
Come down from those ivory towers please, to think some find it difficult to see some who receive Social Security commit fraud.
Or the this fraud is just as wrong as any theft.
The truth is we as a nation must one day look again at the whole issue.
My belief is we should pay far more attention to who gets what, it will be swimming against a very fast tide but if we do truly try we can pay much more to many less.
Some who now work part time and collect the SS are not nice victims but some will not see it.
The truly unhappy life of those who have no choice must be made better but we do need to confront the difference .

"Come down from those ivory towers please, to think some find it difficult to see some who receive Social Security commit fraud.
Or the this fraud is just as wrong as any theft........

........Some who now work part time and collect the SS are not nice victims but some will not see it." (Quote:Belly)~

_________________

Now you are starting to annoy me. Can you not see that such criticism can be equally leveled at you?

YOU Belly, ARE thoroughly fixated on 'Social Security Fraud' to the exclusion of the MASSIVE rorting of the system at the other end of the money tree.

I am irritated by your bland assertion: 'come down from those ivory towers/some will not see it..'.Your comments could quite validly be applied to you!
Comments that are derogatory because others have pointed out that BY FAR the greatest drain on the system comes from the top. BY FAR!!

To extrapolate statements made about corporate fraud as being blind to welfare fraud is ludicrous!

Don't attempt to tell me what I can and can't see, you have a thread about courtesy in posting. How about accepting that others disagree with you rather than talking down to them

yes I agree, and only reason I mentioned lawyers paying no tax and not the massive rorting of family law is because I have already spent 10 years detecting and reporting that side in my book

that is why I mentioned the book

but the biggest recent fraud was the 60 billion by Costello, and I have documented that one too at UTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLRg1U4h-2Y

don't say I did not warn everyone

How can you two say some fraud is ok because other fraud is worse?
Or why has corporate fraud found its way into a thread about welfare fraud workplace fraud?
The one thing about the true left that makes me proud not to be a part of it is the refusal to confront the truth , some the left protects are not worth the effort.
How can any one claim all on SS are victims and keep a straight face?
How can that real life small business man who defrauds both the worker, his opposition, and the tax payer not be a criminal?
How can you throw fire sticks about high income earners fraud into this debate and claim some fraud is ok?
The true left is often more interested in dreams about a world that will never exist.
In a mixed economy the best we can hope for is to feed the needy not the greedy .

"How can you two say some fraud is ok because other fraud is worse?"

Please cut/paste the quote from me that said that.

"Or why has corporate fraud found its way into a thread about welfare fraud"

Why not?? Why not highlight a fraud that eclipses welfare fraud, and make a perfectly valid comparison?

"The one thing about the true left that makes me proud not to be a part of it is the refusal to confront the truth , some the left protects are not worth the effort."

Again you make assumptions elevating yourself in the process. What is wrong with you?

"How can any one claim all on SS are victims and keep a straight face?"

WHO DID THAT?? Get help!

"How can that real life small business man who defrauds both the worker, his opposition, and the tax payer not be a criminal?"

W-w-what...?

"How can you throw fire sticks about high income earners fraud into this debate and claim some fraud is ok?"

Belly, are you all right?

"The true left is often more interested in dreams about a world that will never exist."

Are they?

"In a mixed economy the best we can hope for is to feed the needy not the greedy."

FINALLY! we agree.

(Quotes:-Posted by Belly, Monday, 21 January 2008 6:24:09 AM)

What an irony that it is YOU who chose to initiate a thread "Mutual Respect In Debating"

Ginx I have re read my posts and yours not guilty! that is how I plead with confidence.
How are yours and the Doctors posts related to the thread?
Do you wish to add further offenders ?
I refuse to lay down a life long belief SS fraud is wrong.
And strongly stand forever against bosses who use the system to under pay a worker.
I am happy to say I think you have no understanding of how Australians feel about such fraud.
READ the first post, you will find answers to some questions you ask but respect? if I lost touch with you it was biased on your own posts I can find no common ground with your post here.

To be perfectly honest with you Belly I've delayed responding to your last post because I can't make sense of it. I mean that, it's not a shot.

Suffice it to say that if I choose to disagree with you or anyone else (and v/v);-I shall do so.

Belly, of course SS fraud is wrong. So is stealing a grape or two from the fruit section of the supermarket.
If a security guard caught you doing that while you witnessed someone else walk out of the store with a stack of new-release DVD's under their sweater, what would your reaction be?