David,
What is the main topic on your meeting agenda?
Is it How are we going to eradicate religious beliefs from democracy?
Of course only atheists are the true exponents of democratic principles - aren't they.

It is funny how England, Canada, USA and Australia established the most democratic Governments in the World and their founders were very dedicated Christians? Please Explain! Where are the current democratic systems established by atheists? Are North Korea and Cuba one? It would be an insight worth discovering.

Oliver,

I see no point in arguing as to what is a real democracy other than to say that the aspirations of people in Western counties is to aim for the ideal of democracy in so far as it representative of their hopes and dreams. I agree that Australia in not a real democracy but as Churchill quipped; “Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”

I agree also, that the Founding Fathers may not have envisaged ‘true democracy’ but they did aim for fair governance not hampered by religious belief. On the point of the beginnings of what we call democracy, as an example of the non-trustworthiness of history as we now see it, there are few better than the origins of the American Declaration of Independence. Although attributed to Jefferson as the author, there is compelling evidence the draft copy was actually penned by Thomas Paine. As this matter will most likely never be resolved to the satisfaction of all interested parties, unless genuine additional documentation becomes available, it would be a long and futile exercise in examining it in depth on this forum. You may harbour similar thought as I about this.

No one will go to heaven or hell for holding an opinion either way.

David

Philo,

“What is the main topic on your meeting agenda?”

The topics are wide and varied. They range from what has evolved since last meeting, documenting new membership, financial considerations, future plans, all tied up with a good dose of humour.

“Is it How are we going to eradicate religious beliefs from democracy?”

The AFA doesn’t think in the terms of “eradicate”. It does, however, look at ways of educating people to examine critically their beliefs. The Committee realises that the emotional hold of beliefs on adults is difficult to overcome, and for some, impossible. It therefore concentrates on placing rational ideas in the public arena where those who have not considered the implications of belief, may then do so. As an example, I do not expect to convert you to Atheism but many other people viewing these threads will give it some thought.

“Of course only atheists are the true exponents of democratic principles - aren't they.”

Not true in all cases on both sides. But the consensus of freely chosen Atheism is a far better way to decide matters as all the religious regimes in the world conclusively show.

The greatest leg-up for democracy, in which you and I benefit, was the American Declaration of Independence. It was formulated, as I have explained to Oliver, most likely by Thomas Paine, a Deist who wrote against Christianity in his very famous and as of yet, unrefuted book, The Age of Reason. He also was the first to coin the Phrase, The United States of America. But even if Jefferson was the author, he was definitely against Christianity and religion. (As were many others on the Declaration Committee.)

To openly class oneself as an Atheist in those times would be another declaration, one of destruction of social position at least. Many people were also hampered by the notion of creationism, which (Thankfully) Darwin and evidence continually mounting, put to rest.

North Korea is a tyrannical dictatorship and Cuba is not democracy. This kind of example demonstrates no understanding of freely chosen Atheism or is a mischievous use of language.

David

David,

Thanks for your insights and review.

“I agree also, that the Founding Fathers may not have envisaged ‘true democracy’ but they did aim for fair governance not hampered by religious belief. I agree also, that the Founding Fathers may not have envisaged ‘true democracy’ but they did aim for fair governance not hampered by religious belief…” - D.

-- The ideas of The American Founding are established on French liberal thought,as you know. That said: Fraternity is less evident in the American model than are Liberty and Equity. And like the British peer system, ideals applied more to landed, white males. Religionism, or at least spiritualism, is evident among the FF: Franklin and Washington seem to have been dedicated Masons. Herein, there are woodcut drawings of a Masonic ceremony at the laying of the foundation stone for the first White House (destroyed 1812).

The FF were Englishmen, whom didn’t want to pay taxes, while not having representation in the British Parliament. Continuing slavery as a source of labour, against British edicts in dispute too. NY and Cuba were major slave ports.

“Although attributed to Jefferson as the author, there is compelling evidence the draft copy was actually penned by Thomas Paine. As this matter will most likely never be resolved to the satisfaction of all interested parties, unless genuine additional documentation becomes available, ----it would be a long and futile exercise in examining it in depth on this forum ----.” – D.

---For decades into the twentieth century, it was held the Hindu Kush were always insignificant in power, when compared to the Ancient Egyptians. Yet, archaeologists did not rest there; ultimately, finding that for a period of at least one hundred years when The Kush were Egypt’s equal: Owing to proactive investigation and discovery of new evidence. Herein, propositions should be tested – not futile. Off Forum topic, perhaps. Knowing whether Shakespeare penned the first draft of Hamlet is relevant too, to Literaries. Did he just re-write / improve on earlier versions of the Play? Deserves investigation.

-- Hope your meeting went well.

More later on religious matters...

Oliver,

As you may be aware, the original draft of the Declaration condemned the slavery system but it was removed for the final document. It has been postulated that if it were not removed and acted upon, it may have averted the American Civil War. (Or it may have created an earlier one) It at least would have altered history as we understand it.

My point on relying on history is that it is not necessarily reliable. The Declaration came into existence in 1776, only a few hundred years ago – the events depicted in the NT, around year dot. (A vastly longer period)

To threaten people, especially children, with eternal damnation for not believing in ambiguous and unreliable history, is unreasonable and unacceptable to a rational mind-set.

David

Oliver,

“-- Hope your meeting went well.”

I’m doing four things at once at the moment and I missed your last comment.

AFA Management Committee Meetings generally go very well indeed. They are not only business oriented but a social event also. I find the atmosphere of being with like-minds very stimulating, even more so as we are all involved in making society a fairer and more equal place to live.

These meetings are happening all over the planet and they cannot help but improve the lot of humankind.

David