Who in this world really knows what's going on! I dont, but I will not stop trying. Good luck.

Izzo,

Your inability to read what I wrote is only matched by your ignorance of the new labor gov. The Rudd family both uni graduates with a combined assets in the tens of millions would probably not qualify as lefties in your archaic definition either and are probably closer to your "champagne socialist" or even right wing.

I personally believe in social justice rather than socialism, and libertianism over the command economy called for by the old guard left who mainly consist of old union stalwarts mumbling into their beer and recalling "the good old days" when they could tell everone else what to do.

The "left" for decades is a term also used to include those libertiarians pressing for civil rights etc and has never been the exclusive domain of the socialist - mate.

That post has to be answered quote the old Gard of the union.
Unions may not wish to openly debate the issue[ a weakness if true]but they are indeed divided by the left and right thing.
I see no way it can be any other way in my lifetime.
Old guard statement however is uninformed,the leadership of my union nationally is 26 years old, and his 2ic maybe 34.
And the union is better for it.
Unionism like the left is evolving and do not be too surprised to find far from dead.
Much like the ALP no other way exists to go forward than move with the membership/voters.
Debating the differences in left and right factions of the left of center is just as interesting as the great divides in both shrunken conservative party's they have more factions than members in the house.

Frank...*WHACK*.. thats what you have to do to people who just 'babble' incoherrently :)

DEMOCRITUS.. you made a VERY important point there about the "good old days when the unionists could tell everyone what do do".

It is that very point which reveals the true problem we face.. not 'economic or social injustice' but evil human nature.

We can all imagine the empassioned speeches by the Unionists as they railllled against 'The Greedy evil bosses' and waxed eloquent about 'Class war' etc.. all for the ultimate purpose of gaining the power of which you spoke. "So we can tell them all what do do"

We can all see them attacking greedy bosses with their left hand, while agrandizing themselves and their positions with their right.
Promising unsustainable gains and benefits to workers to get elected as union bosses, then feathering their own nests.

Once they have that 'power'... they continue the rhetoric, but now the reference point is the new advances and gains.. which are now portrayed as 'exploitation, unust, unfair' etc.. to keep them (the new 'bosses' i.e. UNION bosses) relevant.

No..the problem is not Union bosses nor Company bosses, or 'entrenched greed'.. it is quite simply, a fallen nature we all share, and for which there is only one answer, humble repentance to Almighty God, and faith in Christ who revews us at our deepest level.

This thread's moved on somewhat since my last contribution, and Boazy's idiotic call above for "humble repentance to Almighty God, and faith in Christ" suggests it's just about run its intelligible course. A pity.

However, in reply to wiz's response to my earlier comment:

#3 - agreed with those qualifications.

#4 - I still disagree that "Most people who become rich do so by creating wealth, hence "growing the pie". As far as I can tell, most people who are very rich become so by virtue of an accident of birth or by shameless and often criminal exploitation of markets and the consumers and workers who constitute them.

#5 - still ambivalent. If economic growth is indeed possible without exponential increases in population and consumption of material goods I might agree, but I've yet to see a sustained example.

#8 - agreed with that qualification.

Does that make me a Lefty?

All the best for the new year.

Democritus - I really dont think Im ignorant at all, I read what you wrote and came to the conclusion that your views are that of the 'New Labor Government'. As I stated, these views are very similar to a majority of the people who call themselves leftys but in fact would shudder if they knew the true basis of what a Labor goverment historically stands for.

CJ Morgan -
"#4 - I still disagree that "Most people who become rich do so by creating wealth, hence "growing the pie". As far as I can tell, most people who are very rich become so by virtue of an accident of birth or by shameless and often criminal exploitation of markets and the consumers and workers who constitute them."

Im curious as to how you could come to such a conclusion....Id love to hear of any examples you know of - particularly the bit about the workers and consumers being exploited - and I mean recently, not 100 years ago....AND in Australia, not in China etc where the workers are the responsibility of their own governments.

Im yet to see where a large Australian company has recently intentionally exploited their Australian employees.