Was it always evil? was it always wrong? before you answer are you aware how little evidence was needed in those years to remove a white child?
Yes it was often wrong very wrong, yes sometimes evil very much so.
And sometimes it was the only way!
Scream at me but tell me you truly think no child should ever be taken from a parent before you say it was always wrong.
While some what after the stolen generation started post ww2 children of large white family's had every chance of being removed from homes ,just because they sometimes went hungry.
In one house commission street in Sydney 22 homes 3 family's found the kids taken away from parents who loved and looked after them white kids.
Do we understand the young mothers who had children but never saw them?
Taken at birth against their wills by a social welfare system that was brutal and wrong? yet thought it was doing the right thing.
No doubt about it if we say sorry it must be to them too!
Separatism is a tool to keep Australian Aboriginals down .
One set of rules for us all, yes spend more help more but do not pay for another generations mistakes, not crimes, not right but mistakes.

Well said Belly.

*amen*

Have you read the Forgotten Australians report, Belly? It is easy to read and your library should have a copy. It's a good starting point for this discussion.

Remember that, in several states, the white children who were taken from their parents and grew up in care have had a formal apology. (Though as far as I know, there hasn't been an apology from the federal government yet.)

Botheration,

There’s no need to go to a library to read the Forgotten Australians Report. It can be read on-line or downloaded at:

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/clac_ctte/inst_care/report/

You can still get your own copy (free) by a simple telephone call to the Senate Committee at (02) 6277 3515 or an email to community.affairs.sen@aph.gov.au

You’re right to say that, in several states, the white children who were taken from their parents and grew up in care have had a formal apology (from Church, charity or State Government) and that there has been no apology from the federal government yet. The feds washed their hands and refuse to exercise leadership (though they did give each State the princely sum of $16,666 to erect memorials to children who grew up in ‘care’).

Belly,
I think there are many things in common among the Stolen Generation, the Child Migrants and the Forgotten Australians. I think it’s a mistake to play one group off against another because it divides common cause and suits the authorities to be able to say they can’t even agree among themselves.

The trilogy of reports (“Bringing Them Home”, HREOC 1997; Lost Innocents”, Senate 2001; and “Forgotten Australians”, Senate 2004) document a profoundly disturbing story of child abuse and family breakup that must be understood by all Australian as part of the bleak history of growing up in this country.

In many cases, the stories documented in these reports show tragic mistakes, Belly, but in many instances too they document crimes against children. It may be a mistake to take children from their parents, and a mistake to separate siblings into different institutions; but it’s a crime to sexually abuse and impose violent physical cruelty on vulnerable children.

Those are crimes whether the victims are Indigenous, non-indigenous or immigrant children.

While books, plays and laments have been written about the dispossession and suffering of black Americans, there has been only a tentative recognition in Australia. For many years, a popular belief was that the children were being 'saved' from the horrors of a 'primitive' upbringing, in particular the 'half-castes' - when, in fact, many were abused and most received no protection from the state.

The President of the Human Rights Commission, Sir Ronald Wilson, said, "We as a committee have decided that what was done meets the international definition of genocide... which is the attempt to destroy a people, a culture. 'Bringing Them Home,' the commission's report, called for an official apology on behalf of all Australians.

John Howard had steadfastly refused to make this single gesture.

During the week the report was tabled, Federal Parliament spent an hour debating a proposal for a tax on the culling of emus.

By contrast, 'Bringing Them Home,' which described genocide in Australia, was given half an hour, during which the then Prime Minister, the members of his Cabinet and most government MPs left the chamber before the 'debate' was over.

The standard Australian atlas in circulation from 1939 to 1966 described white 'exploration' of Australia as 'the curtain of darkness... being slowly rolled back.' The areas of 'explored' Australia were represented as white oases in an otherwise dark continent. As 'Triumph in the Tropics' had pointed out, Australia was an 'empty land' because its inhabitants did not count as humans.
They were part of the fauna. And as such they possessed no rights, nor any claim to morality' and the Christian gentlemen who chronicled the Australian story were very keen on morality.

I remember my brother, a teacher, who when his students would ask,
"What's the use of history?' replied:
"There are still living today in Arnhem Land people who know almost no history. They are Aboriginal tribesmen who live practically the same way as their forefathers and ours did, tens of thousands of years ago...We are civilised today and they are not. History helps us to understand why this is so."

Frank: "...there are many things in common among the Stolen Generation, the Child Migrants and the Forgotten Australians. I think it’s a mistake to play one group off against another because it divides common cause and suits the authorities to be able to say they can’t even agree among themselves."

Absolutely. Beautifully put.

I think most posters have highlighted the point I wanted to make, let me highlight how I feel read
Paul Keiting Redfern speech.
But do not lightly let the truth get away from us while all the quoted things are dreadful and wrong, some in those days truly thought taking the kids away was the right thing to do!
My Childhood was haunted by the sound of landlords footsteps up the front path ten people in one home.
And far worse the child welfare officers thudding boots.
While kids of poor family's can tell you of that fear.
Laugh about it, but for a short time in a street I lived in an Irish Catholic LABOR family, dobbed in every poor family's kids!
Welfare came to us all time and again till my dad returned us to the bush to avoid them.
Laugh with me but those ruddy kids from that family of dobbers all went to prison! hope Mrs Bucket understood the irony.
I walked the Sydney Harbor bridge would do it again every day of my life to gain Aboriginal equality, but tell me why separatism? why is their pain different than those raped bashed forced migrant children?
Let us say sorry, let us say no more, from this day we will not expect such suffering, and not use the deeds of the past to keep us separate
To every child who ever suffered I am sorry.
To those who knew they did wrong to them, I am sorry there is no hell.
Maybe I should have waited till Rudd speaks, he may just have an answer we can all live with let us truly hope.

Some say it's better for a thousand innocent people to go to prison than for a single guilty person to go free.

It seems that in this debate, one example of a feel-good story outweighs many personal tragedies.

I think it comes back to the real motivation behind it all.

Was it intended to "save children" or was it part of the cultural genocide of assimilation that was intended earlier on?

The word 'evil' should be used with care. 'Evil' in this context suggests deliberately removing children knowing that they would be harmed, knowing that they would be worse off. Was that the intention? Is it possible that there are occasions when a child, any child, is better off being removed from their natural parents? Quite possibly yes.
Too often what is being considered is not the best interests of the child or the rights of the child but the 'rights' (so-called) of the parent. Merely being the biological parent does not necessarily make an individual fit to be a parent.
By no means all aboriginal children were removed from their families. Many of those who were removed were children who were at serious risk of harm. They often had a 'white' parent and they were not accepted by either group. They were often born out of wedlock and, quite wrongly, held to be at fault by archaic thinking.
The notion that thousands of children were forcibly removed for no good cause is a myth that needs to be dispelled. Even the report on the 'Stolen Generation' does not fully dispel that myth. It was too busy concentrating on the 'wrong' done. 'Evil' is not an appropriate word. It is being (ab)used for political purposes.

Yesterday I read a story that said Aboriginal elders demanded that ONE BILLION DOLLARS WAS NOT ENOUGH it called for reparations of at least 3 billion!
Communicat is not far from wrong ,most of those lids but not all of them had to be removed.
That is true of the white children taken away too.
Here I go again, insisting whites too have been victims of a welfare system that was wrong.
Proven wrong by todays standards.
It is far too easy to judge by todays views Do not get me wrong, I truly think an element of barbed wire fence took place.
Some just suffered too much and yes we need to understand that.
Do we need to pay for it?
To pay only some who suffered? is that what it takes to fix it?
If we pay to build schools hospitals and homes for Aboriginals, to give real jobs with a real future ok by me.
Just maybe separatism is hurting these folk as much as the stolen generation ever did.

I will never apologies for things which did not occur. From day one of settlement the Aboriginals were nurtured, cared for and engaged. They were given food and clothes, they were naked, had no homes slept in the bush, had no tools, no shoes, not even a bow and arrow. They say look at 30,000 years of our culture? Well lets just look at the last 1,000 years where no art occurred anywhere, no metal as metal is found in the bottom of fires and they had no fires until after settlement or if they lived near Maccassans and coastal areas where sailors dropped in and left them supplies and fires burning, where they would "carry the hot coals from place to place”, until it rained, then it was wait for the next ship. Bare foot, bare arsed, 2,000 plus languages, 10,000 tribes, not one people, just co inhabitants of the earth, no ownership at all, the earth was their mother.

All the clothes, and civilized conveniences like harvesting food, shelter etc came from the first days of settlement when a home for Aboriginal women and children was built in Rouse Hill in 1789. We constantly cared for and nurtured Aboriginals, they were the most primitive people on the planet, even "pre stone age" as they had no fire, no beasts of burden, "not even a wheel”, as that invention relied on fire, to harvest metal to shape wood and have bows and arrows and wheels which did not occur.

They did not have returning boomerangs until after European settlement, they did not have didgeridoos, that was an invention of the Maccassans and only occurred in a tiny part of the Kimberlies and NT. If you disagree you would be reading from modern post 1960 myths and lies which are found all over the net and have been included in compulsory Aboriginal Studies in Uni, this is simply “fabrication of Australian History”. If you want the truth, go to the original diaries of the settlers and Crown Employees, read their notes on micro fiche

uninformed

Uninformed and brain-dead.

Its the grog. Remove ALL Grog
They have had heaps of money.
Also his info ISNT uninformed.
No need to be so rude.

Grog is a symptom not a reason, Frank Gol has his rights too.
Our failure to bring equality can not be blamed on Grog, even on not trying.
Sometimes like the stolen generation we tried the wrong things.
While many openly dislike my stand it is based on one fact, we must not let it be another 100 years before we fix it.
My use of the word evil in the thread?
It came from Aboriginal elders in front page news story on that day.
Saying the stolen generation was always EVIL? it clearly was not.
One day in the future maybe in 100 years well educated Aboriginals will re write history of their people, hopefully not an invented history.
Last night on ABC television I saw one who cares, of New Zealand Maori ancestry he was told to say he was Aboriginal to work at Arakun!
How low an act? who can not ask why the QLD government would do that?
If it was Mississippi we would scream racism but we ignore the fact it is.
And if we forget the lack of accountability of some Aboriginals and the near cargo cult quest for white mans money we hide the truth.
Build those homes hospitals schools shops and service centers give jobs but not ever cash.

No matter what the motives were, to sieze children and lie to them that their parents had abandoned them or were dead is just not right.

For every feel-good story that gets rolled out as an example of those things, there are many more that are shameful and morally perverse.

The intention may have been at worst, questionable - but the methods used were deliberate.

Maybe evil is not a strong enough word in some circumstances.

Read the report.

I have read the report, the thread asks was it always evil?
My point is it often was and just as often it was not.
Telling kids the parent no longer wanted them could be out of the history of forced migration of British children post ww2.
Was that wrong too?
Is cash the only payment for what even you say is questionable?
Are we being honest applying todays standards to yesterdays actions?
Spend 3 billion dollars if that is what it takes.
But in 20 or 30 years let us see educated people who while understanding their own culture fit in with white Australians not living as second class people with out hope or effort in fact to live a better life.

Belly
The aboriginal people themselves acknowledge it IS the grog!
No idea how we can control it now.
Anyway I am not going to argue the facts with you.
Evil?
To be evil it must have been intended to be so.
That is not the case.
I know a aboriginal lady who loves her foster parents to this day!
I dont think she would appreciate them being called evil!
There are many success cases as well

While I am personally sorry that some were displaced I am no more reasonsible for what was thought to be the best action a hundred years ago then you are Belly.

The only reason people are pushing for that is for billions of dollars to be awared them.

Now- Thats ok I guess BUT only IF the money is put to good.

In the past they have blown money given them because they CANT manage their own affairs!
Thats been because of grog.
Both the Government AND the aborginal leaders acknowledge that GROG is the number one two and three problem
Then comes jobs training education DRs not in that order.

We agree at least on some points Taryn money must be spent not given and some did not suffer by the removal.
It however was not a 100 years ago, some of it was as late as 1960.
Grog in my view is a symptom not the problem.

Belly
Ho Ho Ho
In many areas the leaders themselves have said- Remove the children.
Thats today- Now the leaders.
They also say we have to remove grog- Again these are the aboriginal people themselves.

One million people walked to support them accross that bridge.
They know we support them.

Has it ever occured to you the first settlers saw kids being raped just like today?

Of course they did and acted in the best way they thought at the time.

There is but one way to help them help themselves- And that is to give them the oportunity to be trained and run their own farms shops etc and get the regional areas going.

I noticed your thread on WA and the greens was shut down.
Why was that.? I thought it was a good thread.

With the greens keeping Mum over both ALP and liberal Governments we have for the first time a chance to address live animal exports.

Hopefully now those prepaired to put in funds to reopen abattoirs and small goods factories will get a fair hearing.

Unlike the ALP the greens have a strong sense of decency towards our farm animals.

Oh Yes I saw Kerry Obrien on Landline like everybody else saying if the public wanted the cruel live trade stopped he would listen.

However unlikesome I said Umm- and if they win they will NOT give Ag to Obrien[ who just by the way has never shown any interest before] they will toss it to someone who says- I strongly "support"
the live trade.
Oh I beleive his name is Tony Burke- Very funny! but how fitting!
Yeh thats ALP dirty game of politics.
Its good we will have the greens there to keep the bastards honest as possible.
Thats WHY we all voted Greens.We knew ALP would do the dirty - and they did.
Go the Greens - Ban Live Exports and keep jobs for Regional and aboriginal people.

Merry Christmas

PALEIF: "Has it ever occured to you the first settlers saw kids being raped just like today?"

I don't suppose you'd like to provide just the teensiest skerrick of evidence for this claim?

The reason we see such pathological behaviour in what passes for Aboriginal communities today is because the traditional authority structures that regulated sexual relations (among other things) in tribal Aboriginal society were quite deliberately emasculated by governments, missionaries and frontier misfits.

I've kept away from this thread and others on the topic because of the appalling ignorance exhibited by even well-meaning participants. If you knew anything at all about precolonial Aboriginal societies, you would know that legitimate sexual relations were strictly controlled under tribal law. All of that changed once European 'settlers' arrived.

In a classic instance of victim-blaming, we now see their descendants making up stories about how bad things were for Aboriginal people before our forebears arrived and destroyed their traditional societies. Shame on you.

Welcome back CJ... As always - a voice of reason amidst the outcries.
Please keep on contributing!

Best Wishes for the Festive Season and the coming year...

MERRY XMASS TO ALL THE FORGOTTEN AUSTRALIANS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR AND FOR THOSE WHO ARE NO LONGER WITH US AND A MERRY XMASS AND SAFE NEW YEAR TO ALL OTHER PEOPLE OUT THEIR AND THEIR FAMILYS , well to the topic evil is a path that was placed upon you at times when it should not of been anyone can be evil not just the aboiginals im the broken record im a victim a white victim that was raped and abused whilst in the state institution care at age 14 of N.S.W now 45 still suffering W.A acknowledge in that state as to what their state victims suffered whether they were black white brindle yellow blue red orange pink shall i keep going, we never asked to be raped or bashed or sodimissed by these pedophiles now thats eveil that will be with them type of people all their life, ive been trying my hardest to get justice for what happend to me and that of other forgotten australians i even tabled the senate inquiries to the judge and crown ,they don't care as to what we suffered and as to what it still does to us victims that are still living today, hopefully mr rudd will understand and tell mr iemma and mr greene to act for N.S.W. as we are still here and are not going away ,a lot of you out their say get over it and do something with your self well its a bit hard as you can no longer do what you were doing out in the work force when your consetration isn't their no more , ive said a lot of good and bad in these forums and i thank all who have listened to me MERRY XMASS ALL AND HAVE A SAFE TIME , WE ARE THE FORGOTTEN AUSTRALIANS AND WILL NO LONGER BE FORGOTTEN OR SILENT KIND REGARDS MICHEAL.

Dear Michael/Huffnpuff,

Merry Xmas bakatcha, man. Don't worry about sounding like a broken record. You just do what you feel you gotta do.

Seasons greetings.

Morgan
Trust you to take a 'personal' swipe at our comments.
The point is none of us were there.
That is why I dont think we can say sorry for evil acts against blacks.
There are also plenty of aboriginal people that loved their foster parents and were treated well CJ

TarynW, pale, who ever is posting as pale today, calm please, in his post C J Morgan was having as much a go at me as you.
However he was right in his rebuttal of your rape story.
Before whites came a very strong set of laws regards sex and life its self existed.
Even in the last 40 years we have stopped those laws being continued, but not replaced them with laws that work.
If such rapes took place it would only be in the minds of story tellers, death would be inflicted for such a crime.
Your claim we yes as you say did not exist then to see it our selves weakens your own, wrong claims.
No doubt about it the coming of whites killed of Aboriginal laws and sometimes culture.
In some cases it was abandoned not taken away.
The damage CHRISTIANS did is still visible not just in Australia but in many Pacific Island nations.
We however live now, it serves little purpose to say todays problems are only white mens.
A poster again tells here in this forum of dreadful crimes this very wrong welfare system did to white children.
Do we devalue that? are crimes against children worse if they are one color?
The life of far too many Aboriginals is dreadful!
In over 240 years it has not improved why?
Will flooding the problem with money fix it?
we must fix it but Not convict us all, C J Morgan I understand and respect your view but surely you understand most Australians do not subscribe to the blame the whites way as the only answer?

PALEIF - there was nothing "personal" about it. Besides which, who knows which person we're talking to when addressing you?

I note that you didn't provide any evidence for your vilificatory comment.

Belly, I agree that money isn't the answer, at least in and of itself. However, a formal acknowledgement that contemporary Aboriginal problems derive directly from colonial destruction of Aboriginal society and expropriation of their land might assist in formulating a new constructive dialogue between the remnant Indigenous minority and the dominant culture.

Understandably, the dominant culture is uncomfortable with the visible pathology of its continuing colonial relationship with the Indigenous people upon whose extinction its identity was originally constructed. A generation or two ago, the bureaucratic solution to this very problem was to take "half-caste" children from their mothers and thence brutalise them in the name of assimilation.

Yes, there were some successful outcomes - but far more failures. Now that we are once again confronted with the sexual expression of the destruction of traditional Aboriginal kinship and tribal structures, it seems the best we can come up with is the neocolonial "intervention" legacy of our erstwhile and unlamented Federal government.

My respect for Rudd will increase if he offers a formal apology to Australia's Indigenous people for the destruction of their societies and ways of life, and for their dispossession and subsequent appalling treatment by settlers and their ancestors.

That might constitute the basis for real 'reconciliation'.

Bugger.

I obviously meant "settlers and their descendants".

HO"HO"HO" MERRY XMASS TO THE FOPRGTTEN AUSTRALIANS AND OF THOSE WHO ARE NO LONGER WITH US GOD BLESS ? cj morgan do me this favour what about those of the forgotten australians will you ever want to say sorry to us victims as you said well and good to mr rudd for the aboriginials what about us victims the forgotten australians ,i was placed in institutional care run by our state of N.S.W . DARUK BOYS HOME WINDSOR NOW JOHN MORONEY CORRECTIONAL CENTRE . yet their is still no apoligy to us victims W.A. says sorry to their their victims because they know the cover up must stop of what the previous goverments all have done ,i only hope that mr rudd will speak to our leaders in our state . as i have sent them faxes and emails the forgotten australians will no longer be forgotten MERRY XMASS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU ALL KIND REGARDS HUFFNPUFF ,MICHEAL BROWN ,

C J Morgan I offer no difference to you claims, sadly they are mostly true.
Those drawings used to tell about the white mans laws, those the first fleet put out showing the death of both white or blacks would result in hangings are evidence we did not start out to murder.
Some however did, those gifts of sugar and food did as much harm, yes say sorry.
But are todays actions always the fault of whites?
Yes we did change Aboriginal culture, sometimes we made room for its abandonment, not murder.
But can we always blame just whites?
How then did some climb to be great Australians like a states governor?
But I find hope in your statement seemingly agreeing cash payment is not the answer.
If we must spend ten times ten the 3 billion some elders are asking for on services and such , not wasted on jobs for whites do it.
But the side issues must be addressed huffnpuff is speaking of modern day crimes against children.
Not a racial issue but a product of the same miss directed child welfare system my early posts talk of ,it is at the roots of the wrongs done to Aboriginals.
Last pale!
Gee do you understand I do not dislike you? every one of you? who posts today? no one could ever know!
Your own words not mine question that, time and again you say some one else is posting as pale.

Morgan
So we are going to call my grand parents who took in and educated children Evil are we?
How Stupid.
What you must understand is - not all the kids were worse off.

None of Us were there so WE are not responsible for what others did and I certainly do NOT agree that all people were evil who housed aboriginal children.
So we are going to brand all the good people who did the RIGHT thing Evil are we? We are going to apoligise for all the good things my grand parents and many others did?
How insulting!
Sure ANYBODY who was raped or mistreated SHOULD be compenstated.
Dont now how they could show evidence now - but still.

Many will tell you they were very well treated and loved their foster parents.

If you really want to help todays aboriginal people fight for them to have their own free range farms and assistance to train and export products after they have value added through their own factories.
That will bring more schools tecks unis Drs Infustructure and above all their inderpendance and furture for the next generation.

Belly I am part aboriginal and I can assure you the grog IS the problem.
When the settlers first came they were employed in many areas after a while.
Then the unions caused trouble and they all ended up sitting on the river banks drinking grog.
There is a little bit of union historty that must have escpaed you.
Oh boy- I can just imagine your reply.
Thats the thing with you belly you wont listen to anything if it highlights problems unions caused in the past.
It would have been far better had the unions left the aboriginal people alone.
They were quite happy with their working conditions and pay.
Thats was the first of the grog instead of work.
Trouble over unions!

huffnpuff - I have no doubt that you are owed an apology for your treatment while in the supposed care of the State, but that is a different issue to what I was talking about. I said that Australia's Indigenous people are owed a formal apology by the Australian government for the wholesale destruction of their society and way of life, and the expropriation of the lands upon which the Australian nation is literally built.

PALEIF - where did I say that anybody is "evil"? I merely pointed out one aspect of your ignorance of traditional Aboriginal societies, to which you had drawn attention via your appalling suggestion that gang rapes of children had been observed by settlers.

I note that you still haven't provided a shred of evidence for that claim. No doubt you'll continue to obfuscate hysterically, but it doesn't make your comments any less ignorant or offensive.

Huffnpuff is indeed a different story than the stolen generation.
But the story is not a single one.
It has always been true sadists find jobs in such places and white wash is easier than action.
I may be wrong, sorry if I am but that institution was for kids who committed crimes wasn't it?
Along with Tamworth it was known as a hard place, investigations uncovered much to be ashamed of.
Pale, who am I talking to? this thread has seen a few from that group, strange that we need to ask.
You in your anti union rant, it is TarynW isn't it? highlight a thing of great pride.
Do you understand you speak of the event that saw a former ALP Prime Minister enter our history?
Those slaves! no other words are honest!walked to that river bank and won a great victory,
the song about it runs in my head now, did you think you would shame me?
Proudly I claim it as a victory not for unions but the people who fought it and my ALP.
Now a question if you find this proud story something I should be ashamed of do you understand ANYTHING about Aboriginal issues?
Have a great Christmas every one yes those posting as pale you too have a quite beer and consider a gift for me.
Not much just please think about letting us know who we are taking to in each post.

Foxy: "Best Wishes for the Festive Season and the coming year..."

Sorry, I missed that somehow... same back at you.

I'll wish for your good health as well :)

MERRY XMASS FORGOTTEN AUSTALIANS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR AND TO THOSE OF US WHO ARE NO LONGER WITH US GOD BLESS LET THERE BE JUSTICE FOR THE FORGOTTEN AUSTALIANS REGARDS MICHEAL AND TO ALL OTHER PEOPLE OUT THEIR EXCEPT THE SICK _UCKERS THAT COME INTO THE SITE WHO WILL GET THEIR DAY WHEN CAUGHT BYE ALL

Huffnpuff you do you understand, do your mission no good with such posts.
I have some understanding of your pain and the wrongs you have faced.
You understand not too many Aussies would not be sympathetic to your story, few do not understand it truly happened.
If you present your case to ministers as badly as you do here sometimes do not expect results.
Standing on a street corner shouting never works, you seem intent on posting in caps and insulting those who do not want to side track other issues.
Other post here who support your claims, yet you do not use your chance to speak in terms that highlight your story, screaming at the world is not ever going to work.
As a whistle blower, yes me! I can tell you no one will listen, if you just ask them too.
Hanging on my wall are state government awards for leadership, one of no more than ten given to my group statewide.
They meant nothing under both conservative and ALP governments once I tried to tell my story of theft and crime in my department.
Calmly write your story give it to the opposition, the press, every Medea outlet you can find.
First read it again and again is it put the way you wanted?
Give it to the Church's never give in but be clear anger will not sell your side of the horrors you have seen, just maybe you must understand throwing rocks is hurting your case.
Even I an activist for such as you find it hard to ignore your heat and you need to think about that.

Belly,most of the kids in the reform schools did not commit crimes.We were charged with neglect or exposed to moral danger.We were charged,not our parents or the ones who neglected us.We were charged,not the ones who raped and bashed us until we could stand it no longer.Sure we sometimes stole food or clothes to survive whilst on the streets.Sure we slept with people to get a roof over our heads.We were not criminals,just kids trying to survive.There is a gross public misconception about the children who were in those homes.If you broke the rules in those places,you were then sent to a maximum security juvenile detention center.Rules like not shaving your legs or plucking your eyebrows,rules like wearing your socks at knee level.I spent 24weeks in Hay maximum security for altering a tattoo on my arm.Not for hurting anyone or breaking the law or stealing but for tattoing my own body.Google HAY girls institution,read what happened there and judge for yourself if the punishments fitted the crime.We were not criminals just young kids looking for a way out of the often intolerable situation we were living in.Quite a few of us were dumped at the gates of welfare homes,never to see or hear from any natural relatives again.Imagine the horror of being in that situation as a four or five year old. Imagine having your body invaded by the so called carers.

hay girl I wonder how you think I did not know?
And do you think criminal actions allowed such miss treatment?
I understand no child no adult no human should be treated as you say.
Why not start threads about that miss treatment? surely while it is shameful , even while the welfare system was near the same as some of the stolen generation story it is different.
Have you any idea how many have no idea of your suffering?
We know of the dreadful things Britain did to its convicts, truthfully it never stopped story's about floggings in adult prisons up to the 1970,s are well know.
But the idea of this thread was Aboriginal children the stolen generation, was it always evil?
After reading thoughts from elders from that community that said yes it was always evil .
And calling yet again in the cargo cult fashion for white to both say sorry and pay 3 billion dollars!
I said no! to the idea it was always wrong.
To the idea it will take cash to fix it.
And highlighted whites suffered too.
But start that thread or do you want me too?, air the problem but understand if we shout few will listen.

"I may be wrong,sorry if i am but that institution was for kids who committed crimes wasn't it."
Belly that was the bit i was responding to.Unfortunately most of the kids in the institutions you mentioned were transferred from other homes
for the sort of rule breaking i mentioned.Not because they were criminals.The general public was unaware of these circumstances and just told that the inmates were the worst offenders in that particular state.
I understand the subject is about the treatment of aboriginals and i'm not trying to sidetrack the issue.Huffnpuff has trouble with the computer and accidentally writes in capitals sometimes,as he has said on other discussions.I am actually part aboriginal but don't look it so i suppose i am qualified to speak about the stolen and the forgotten generation.Both these issues need to be addressed and from what i see and hear,they are both being given a lot of attention by the governments,state and federal.

Belly
Its hard to always get the balance right.
The fact Is the aboriginal people who were working lost their jobs through unions.

They then discovered grog and they could be found each day down on the rover banks drinking.
Most of the crimes against their own started then as well.
The two go hand in hand.
The fact is introducing them to grog WAS and IS our fault.

Get rid of the grog and you will be on the road to a long recovery.

I am sure the unions meant well by insisting aborigal people were paid equal.
Its just like so many other things Belly
In hindsight.

Oh and Belly as I shared with you before I am part aboriginal with a very good knowledge of several familes history.
My point was- many many kids were educated and loved their foster parents.
I grant you others were mis treated but I must stress to you to apoligise and call it an evil act is a insult to the people who did the right thing.

Morgan I dont give two hoots about your opinions actually.

Your rude and personally aggresive to anybody posting from pale be it aboriginal or Muslim or Migrants.
Normally I dont read your posts anymore because your always personally atacking somebody if not us.


You pick on some of our new Austrailans spelling- You make silly childish comments without posting one ounce of proof.

I think I have a right to speak up for the love between my past family and many of the people who took them in and gave them an education and life.

I am sorry for children who were not cared for or abused.
Of course I am.
What type of personal wouldnt be?
However WE are not responsible for something that took place hundreds of years ago.
We are! reasonsible to finally do something about the grog

PS Belly
Cut the bull about wanting each person to post their real name.
A Nobody posts their real name here including you!
B When Taryn posted under Taryn you straight away refered to her as pale.

If you dont like the rules Graham set up then get on Roberts band wagon and cause as much trouble as you like.
After all thats what unions and unions leaders do isnt it!

Perhaps you could suggest to GY that everybody goes on strike until you get your way.
Mind you it wouldnt do much for his business would it?
Still whem has a blokes business ever been the first concern ha.
What a way to run a country.
God help this country in the years to come because we need wise leaders and we are heading for the greatest slump in Australias history.
It will be ok for a while because there is a lot of funs left to them
After that. After about six to ten years- Its going to be a great worry.

So the thread is lost again! not just the host posting as pale this time but it is lost and buried!
However pale you must confront the issue, do not drag RObert into our debate.
You throw fire bombs at me for not obeying forum rules?
Do you understand it is forum rules not to divert the thread?
Unions you say lost Aboriginals jobs?
Are you so uninformed? do you not understand those jobs had been slavery? and that they abandoned them? do you understand the great historic victory those people won?
Pale my manners may seem crude but in truth for this forums sake I have time and again forgotten my promise never to talk to you.
And YES even in your posts in this last 2 months you say openly others are posting as pale.
I see one personality in many who are pale members.
One set of blinkered views remote from reality.
LOOK please at the thread Sunday morning in the lodge.
See the contempt for forum rules.
The diversion of a thread into a bitchy fight.
In truth the pale car park is a never ending one, powered by your group.
Silly childlike near lies? references to Labor and China threads are thrown at me but I know of no link to my opinions of you.
Here is what I truly think of Pale.
A confusing group of females who seem intent on stopping the cruelty of live animal exports.
Often this seems mixed with some self interest, as some one within the group claims an interest in exporting meat to Muslim country's.
Some difficulty in knowing who is who, why?
Strange that as I have been taunted by this group into putting my full name here they hide even who is posting one day.
Then tell us someone other than pale is do it?
Constant confuseing claims I did not put my name out? can it be a lie? or another poster? how many use the pale name?
I am unable to believe animal welfare is in any way served by such an abusive group

HayGirl
Sorry about this. You should know right up front that Belly takes any comment about unions and history personally.
Geting back to your comments I just think its discusting the way some were treated.

I only ask people consider the counter argument by branding ALL foster parents as evil way back then because that would be a lie and a insult to the many that provised love education and a future.

It would also be a insult to the many aboriginal people who call their foster parents Mum and Dad and knew and loved no other.

Perhaps Haygirl you could request the State Governments open a registery .
Or it could be done privately if people didnt want the Government involved or trust them.

Once that was established perhaps there could be a apology to those particular ones who registered.
'

Well Haygirl- Perhaps its not too late the seek some justice for the way in which yourself and many others were treated.

Why shouldnt you be compensated and the others.!
Providing we dont brand all the foster parents evil I cant see why we cant as I said- Take the abuse victims case on for compensation.

What do you think? We have some legal people that would be happy to advise for no cost to kick it off.

Belly
Really There There Settle down its Christmass time.
Nothing is lost old chap.
You just need to understand not to take comments so personally.
For goodness sake Forums are for comments.
If somebody posts history about ALP unions dont go your goose.
Its simply a comment and probably a fact.
Plenty of mistakes made by the Liberal and National Government in the past also.etc.

I mentioned Robert for the soul reason to remind you what happens when folks try to use OLO as a personal pay back sytem.

Please allow Haygirl to share her knowledge and experiences.
I am certainly interested.

From all of us at pale- Around tweleve hundred Belly
Merry Christmass- We look forward to speaking to Mr Rudd about common decency towards our Australian Animals.

As people are having problems with names mine is Jenny and i'm an exinmate of nearly every home and reform school in NSW.Firstly,i don't want or need compensation as i'm what's called a survivor and have made a nice life for myself.A lot of kids were damaged(black and white) from the treatment they received,and they are the ones who still need help.Once the statute of limitations is overturned maybe some reparation will be made.Most of the complainants were ill treated in the homes,more so than the foster families.Solicitors and counselling services are available to the ones who need help and groups of like minded people are banding together and comforting one another.I do not think an apology is worth a pinch of salt.Apologies are just words and mean nothing,especially when the perpetrators of the acts are nearly all dead.Stop this sort of thing happening again.That's what is most important.I don't believe that removing any child,black or white from an unsafe environment is evil.Unfortunately in the past,the places they were removed to,in some cases, were worse than where the kids came from.Happy New Year to you all.

Haygirl
Wow!
I am so proud of you. Your the real face of the brave and knowlegable.
Well good luck to you and thanks for the info.
I cant help but wish that you were running some of the programes.
Selfish of me I guess but you have "such wisdom" to give.

Merry Christmass darling girl and thanks for showing us "what real aboriginal [part] are made of."
Great stuff.
May God Bless you and keep you safe always.
Oh by the way. My name is Wendy and I am the President of PALE.
The other persons are Taryn[ part aboriginal also] and a GREAT lady Antje Germann born nut Aussie at heart and- members who forward comments via this office to be posted for them under the name of PALE.
See Belly what happens when somebody asks in a polite manner.
Happy New Year To all and a big hug for Sky from all of us at pale Belly.
Let us know what you name your name the new family member ok.

Listen to Haygirl because shes the light of love and wisdom.
The best gift of all at Christmass.

So I guess you just made up the bit about settlers witnessing Aboriginal gang rape of young girls, eh PALEIF, Taryn, Wendy, Antje or whoever you are today?

Which one of you made up the story - or was it a group fantasy?

haygirl I admire your strength and at no time ever wanted to devalue your past.
I understand that life can be cruel and no matter how easy some think it is to be accountable for your actions it is not so.
Have no doubt I have folks who lived such life in my family.
In fact as the oldest in that family it falls on me to help, I would never devalue such hurt, I however will never hide my view you have found the answer the only answer self help is the best aid.
Now pale, why do I bother?
The female insult aimed to hurt is your most often used tool.
The crawling arm over the shoulder of new comers and those you have just insulted come next.
Switching the debate to take spotlight of your muddled statements like whites watching rapes that NEVER HAPPENED come soon after.
No answer to my whole name being printed here?
No answer to who posts as pale today?
No explanation as to why some in pale share the one personality?
Some one in pale does understand the needless nature of one or more posters out puts we see short spaces without that poster then the barbed comments Begin again.

Morgan and Belly
It would seem neither one of you can read- Let alone reason!
What was said was- We have no way of knowing WHAT the first settlers saw when they arrived. It is possible they witnessed young being sexually used.
We simply do not know!

The fact still remains that neither You Morgan Or Belly or Haygirl or myself for that matter can apoligise for what WE did not do.
The fact also remains that many children loved their foster parents which was the only family they knew.
Many foster parents loved their children as well/
To refer to all of them as evil is a insult to the aboriginal children who loved THEIR Mums and Dads as well as their parents.
Think about it from ALL sides for All of the people.
Haygirl has more sense than both of you put together.

If there was a way of finding the abused kids and helping every single Aussie would support that!
BUT I cant personally apoligise for something my family played no part in.
Look at the public that walked the Harbour Bridge with the Aboriginal People.
What a proud day for Australia.
The people have spoken.

Haygirl has shown you up to be the trouble makers you are.
Good for Her.
My name is Taryn. I am part aboriginal. I think I know just a few more family stories going back than YOU.
Not all Foster parents were evil.
Some were.
From my point of view I would be very upset to hear my great grandparents foster people being called evil.
Why= Because that would have upset my past family members very much- They loved them.
Not so for a great great cousin who like Haygirl was abused.
Also for something to be called Evil you must show that it was for a evil intent or purpose.
There is no proof of that any more than there is some were abusing the kids.
We simply dont know what was witnessed!

Taryn here Wendy in another post in another thread today both posting as pale.
Ok? content Belly that is what matters content.
Haygirl only touched on the threads intent lightly, she highlighted her pain.
And totally different wrong, yes totally acts against her, why the praise?
I told her of my admiration for her strength and understanding she helped herself.
Taryn ,not unlike most who post as pale you heap praise on haygirl and seem to have your arm over her shoulder.
you claim she has bettered me?
It has to end! I just can not continue to find reason to talk to you.
Time and again I try to look for the good in your group, and time and again the OUT OF CONTROL INSULTS are my payment.
So I leave the thread, it had much to talk about, C J M organ and I differ in our views true differences but we can talk.
It is just not possible with your group!
I know after some time avoiding pale the arm will flop over my shoulder, it is the way you work.
But while I will debate issues with most I avoid street corner speakers who are only interested in their own words.
haygirl I want to remind you I never meant to insult you and look forward to seeing a thread you start about your problem.

Belly

You might be unbalanced I guess becauise nothing could explain the above post and your rambling.

My comments and praise to haygirl are well earned.

Here we have a person with the strenght to speak out fairly and put things in the right prospective.

Why shouldnt she be praised!

Your dislike of pale ever since you made a dork of yourself by asking- What has Rudd and China to do with live exports? Is becoming tiresom.

What I didnt bother Haygirl with- But would have loved to was our MOUs with quite a few Aboriginal Councils regarding projects to give complete inderpendance to Aboriginal people especially living in regional areas.

We have dealt with many aboriginal people and councils belly= unlike yourself.

Haygirl is a clear leader and we would do cart wheels to have her involved in running these programes.

The reason I didnt mention it is - Respect.

I respect Haygirl has a busy life and is self sufficent= most likely married and busy raising a family.

Who ever those lucky children are will have the very best start in life because they willl learn the right attitude.

Everything stems from a persons attitude Belly.

Yours isnt on the same level I am afraid.

Dead set you claim your good at sorting out disputes as a union leader.
God help this country if there are any more union leaders like you around.

You think every thread is about you!- and OLO is some sort of contest for the most popular guy or something.

Haygirl is brillant and your more than a little odd to be upset by pale posting well deserved comments to her or any other poster for that matter.
Get help- You clearly require it.

Belly: "But while I will debate issues with most I avoid street corner speakers who are only interested in their own words."

Well said mate. I generally don't bother with the Gold Coast sewing circle these days, except as I did in this thread to correct a particularly egregious claim from one of their number (who knows which?). I note that they've back-pedalled somewhat on their offensive suggestion that gang rapes of Aboriginal children were a feature of traditional Aboriginal society.

I also think their claims to be working with Aboriginal councils and to have established formal MOUs with them to somewhat less than credible. But that's about what we expect from this strange little organisation - on the basis of the drivel that they regularly post here.

Morgan
Another one who has not bothered to read links and web pages posted over the last few years.
Our MOUs with Aboriginal Councils in QLD are certainly NOT new.
We also hold MOUS with Islamic leaders Australia wide which I believe is the first.
You continue however to post pale are racists.
Comments such as pale are racist pigs were common until the editor stepped in finally.
Isnt it interesting that Haygirl wasnt offended by our posts.
Just goes to show there is nothing wrong with anybody bar their intentions.
Our Intentions have always been to improve Animal Welfare especially in regional areas where there are many aboriginal people very capable of running their own free range farms plants small goods and producing world class products from exports. Just ask QLD Government Warren Pitt about our work if your in any doubt!

Yes I agree with Taryn that the drinking IS a huge problem.
Nobody said Aboriginal people "were" pack abusing young children!

What was said for the LAST TIME WAS- We have no way of knowing what they saw but we think the idea of removing the children was mostly from good intent.
Some low life men decided however they could rape and abuse these children black or white.
Interesting isnt it that most horrible crimes and nasty acts are carried out by men and mostly in groups.
Of course there was always the odd farmers wife that didnt want to face the facts that her husband snuck out to the kids room in the night.
They would be JUST as guilty in my eyes.
If you really cared about aboriginal people you would get off your bum like we did twleve years ago! and create some programes to help.
Haygirl fyi=
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

I have started a thread previously about MY problems.The thing is i don't have any problems,i have learnt to look after myself and put the past behind me. What happened all those years ago are just memories from a rather unusual childhood.I am not the topic of discussion here and i do apologise if what i have said has caused people to go off on a different tangent.I don't believe that removing aboriginal children was evil and thought given my backgroud i may have some input of value.Yes i do have children,grandchildren and a husband.I am also a coordinator for
a group of ex state wards in Qld.When the children were removed from bad environments i do not believe it was with evil intent.I believe their was not enough policing in the homes,state and private,and that was the major problem.The lack of support services and follow ups.This problem is still with us today.I will support any person that feels let down by the system till my last breath but i don't feel that i need to be compensated or felt sorry for.That is what occured then,unfortunately.We just need to see it doesn't happen again.Will people please return to the topic as i am feeling quite uncomfortable with the way things are heading.

In a post on Saturday 22/12/2007 at the time of 7.14.14 in this thread pale said, well go back and read what pale said and what just above they say they said. yet here we are told it never was said?
Is it a lie?, well it is untrue but just maybe the people who post under that name are unaware of the value of truth.
haygirl feel no guilt you never hurt or diverted the thread.
Read long lasting threads on this forum and you will see true miss use.
I can no longer debate with what appears to be a group of embittered females from some refuge, it is at least a refuge from reality.
Australia and the world will always have intensive farming, right now if you , and I have, make a choice to buy free range that costs much more and is often a fraud.
I would pay more but for honest free range not lies.
I will dodge further debate with the great number posting as pale so leave this thread but I do think any group would be of better help to animal welfare than this group.
I leave pale with this thought.
If you give more value to your thoughts than they earn and less to those who oppose you you have lost the fight before it starts.
I think that means common since out ways screaming and bitchyness.

Haygirl
The transfer of Brad Saunders from the QLD Government Department to West is a pure win for Toomooba area but also a great loss to other areas.

As you are probably aware Warren is no longer the Minister for Aboriginal affairs in QLD as well.

We have raised issues with the new Ministers advisor and hope to attend meetings along with RSPCA QLD reps and Islamic leaders in the new year.

Graham Dillon a long time friend is very busy with the new convention center to be opended on the Gold Coast.

What we need is another person looking to take over certain parts of a programe to open a teck for training and also work with RSPCA QLD to educate Aboriginal people.

A united effort that will eventually see Aboriginal RSPCA Inspectors to work with their own people.

Often dogs are a problem for the health of the young children who play with them.

Many a wormie and unkept.

The problem in the past has been whenever RSPCA have attended to treat some of these animals and give basic education- There isnt one dog to be found anywhere.

The people hide them and I dont know how they do it but from dogs roaming around all over the place you cant see even one for days!

Very Clever.

We have been offered funding from QLD State Government to reopen a property two hours drive from QLD.

It is Aborigial owned and well know.

Anyway these positions are on a non paid basis until they are established.
Once working well I cant see why the QLD Government then would not consider a couple of full time positions.

Our main area of work is on the link I provided earlier.

Belly
Unless you actually wish to do something to assist establish aboriginal training centers like the ones we are working on right now on the Gold Coast do not address us.
David CEO Pale

I have no intention of debating that group again.
But how is it every now and again the group asks big brother Dave the CEO to front up?
How can the thread be diverted so badly?
How can the miss use of truth I highlighted not be addressed?
I spoke of what I think of that group but left out my base truly held view.
Quote
I honestly think some in the group are not fully able to control their thoughts or posts end quote.
Animal welfare is too important to be in the hands of such a group.
Is the prime reason for the groups existence meat exports or animal welfare?
And is it Aboriginal welfare?
Or is this group prepared to hop on any band wagon to further its aims?
Without doubt one thing is sure, nothing can convince me the group is of any use to anything.

Belly, I know Uncle Graham Dillon and Brad Saunders well. Like many of our community leaders they have to put up with nutters – nutters who then claim them as friends everywhere and anywhere just to “pump” themselves and their “issues” up.

And you can bet the only reasons these training programs are of interest are because of the dollars attached. The heart felt concern these kind of people express for Indigenous people is just buullllshit.

Rainer.
How dare you assume we are looking to make funds out of our Aborigial Programes.
How dare you!
Three out of three have been SELF Funded By Us and five Lawyers who also have given up their time Free Of charge.

I do not care if you know Graham Or Brad.


Just post your REAL name as we do so we may forward your comments to them.
I am sure they would love to enlighten you as they hold a great deal of respect for us.

Brad is a top bloke whom we have sat at many tables with.

He has always been extremly interested in assisting aboriginal people and energetic and hopeful for the future.

You may see him working with us HERE-
http://www.halakindmeats.com/
Graham as you should know is basically retired - bar the convention center.
Kalbar has gone down him since his retirment which is a pity.

The only way to help aboriginal people or any people living in regonial areas is "to help them- help themselves"

This may come as a shock to you but the key to all of society is to fully involves them and not just dish handouts.

Our programes provide training and a oportunity to own their own small business working with Austrade and or their own Free Range Farms or small goods plants.

RSPCA QLD and ourselves DO NOT get one cent from it nor is it our intention to do anything other than improve both Animal Welfare and training and employment for Aboriginals.

Haygirl has no doubt left this thread.
I do not blame her although I would have liked to discuss issues re regional areas with her a bit more.

There is no point trying to have a sensible exchange of ideas on this thread because its bogged down with nasty childish rubbish not fitting pre school.

Sorry haygirl I tried.

Taryn,

Are you really a Murri or just a part time, wannabe one?

I'd prefer it you just called yourself white and stopped jumping the fence everytime you want to defend your wamba mates.

Dr Do-Little wrote:

"RSPCA QLD and ourselves DO NOT get one cent from it nor is it our intention to do anything other than improve both Animal Welfare and training and employment for Aboriginals"

You can bet I'll be doing my own research on you people to find out who and what you do.

As for posting my real name, i have no need for you to pass on my comments to people I have known for a long time.

They will hear from me as per our own protocols - we have no need for rabid missionaries, mercenaries or misfits such as yourselves.
Our communities are already infested with these types.

There you go. Save you the bother.

http://www.halakindmeats.com/

http://www.livexports.com/

We are very proud of the work our members have done.
Not just with Aboriginal people but people from ME Maylasia and others.
We are also proud of the extra efforts put in by RSPCA QLD such as Palm Island.
There is a good example of working with Animal Welfare and Aboriginal People.

Dont get me wrong. There is a great deal more to be done.

All the people involved do it on a non paid bassis.

Costs are shared by these people also.

Their only interest that these like minded people share in common is to improve Animal Welfare in Regional Areas.

We have found the best way to do that is to improve the conditions of some of the people living in those areas.

Personally my family have always been involved with Aboriginal people.
I was born in Kempsey and grew up with them.
I know how horrid some people used to treat them. I can recall as a child holiday makers staying at Hat Head telling their children to get out of the water and not swim with the local kids.
Mind you it was their swiming hole that they swam in every day.

I was never so proud of my mother in my whole life as I was that day.
She called out to us playing in the sand- Wendy and Phillip you go in and swim and play with these children.

Never forgot it.

Although we were young and tried to live by her high standards ever since.

Do not tell me I have not shared the pain of some of these people who became life long friends.
Or that we dont care!
Taryn is part aboriginal as she said- a friend a fellow Animal Lover and a member of Pale.
She is free to comment and she at least has first hand knowledge as well.
The only think that slightly refers to the title of this thread 'Evil'
Are your uncalled for comments.
President PALE
Wendy Lewthwaite.

hi to all forgotten australians and other readers i shall not be placing no more comments in these sites as justice will preval all take care regards micheal im real

Hi Michael

All power to your arm. Good luck to you for the future.

Remember CLAN and the Alliance for Forgotten Australians. They will be right behind you and other Forgotten Australians.

Frank