The intent of this thread is not to highlight Racism, never, but are we free to talk about our concerns without being called racists?
I understand the imprisoning of that school teacher in Sudan is no proof all Muslims are strange.
But are we free to question the intelligence of those who hold her?
To ask can it truly be that a God has that much power over common since?
We are about to say sorry, yes it is time, but are we free to say just maybe we played no part in the whole issue, could not have changed it?
And dare we mention sometimes those wrong ,and they are wrong, actions saved lives?
Is it ever ok to hold honest views that are not politically correct ,but may well be true?
Am I free to say we should not trade with a nation like Sudan in any way until such bigoted actions are a thing of the past?
And can I ask why we who are so concerned for some ignore such as a rape victim being flogged for her crime?
We are not free we are bound hand and foot by the wish not to upset some, to wait still for some to find human compassion and stop enslaving people.
To indeed stop hating us sometimes .
If published please remember the thread is not meant to be racist some will clearly say it is but that is a symptom of the problem not an answer.

belly, you and every ozzie are truly free in just the same way a sheep in a paddock is free.

i do wish you'd stop worrying about serious matters though, there's absolutely nothing you can do about matters of consequence. those are for the upper class.

Dear Belly,

The Soviet-style socialist societies of Eastern Europe and Asia claim to be democratic and dedicated to human freedom, although their political systems have few of the features that we have . Yet the leaders of these societies are not necessarily being cynical. They, and no doubt many of their citizens, believe that they live in democracies and that their people are free.

The source of the difficulty lies in the way 'freedom' is defined.
In our society we are primarily concerned with freedom - 'of' :
freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, freedom of the individual to make a fortune. In their societies they are primarily concerned with freedom - 'from' : freedom from want, freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from exploitation by people who want to make a fortune. Put another way, we interpret freedom as meaning 'liberty' ; they interpret it as meaning 'equality.'

Liberty and equality are uneasy bedfellows. In general, the more you have of one, the less you will have of the other. Your liberty to be richer than anyone else violates the other person's right to be your equal; other people's right to be your equal violates your liberty to earn more than anyone else. Our society has chosen to emphasize
personal liberty, an emphasis that can lead only to social inequality.

Most people don't of course rationally consider the various alternatives. No matter what country they inhabit, they tend to simple accept the system they have been socialized to believe in.

Absolutely. In fact, I think you'll find pretty strong condemnation of Sudan's ridiculous, draconian actions – including from Muslim groups (See: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2219601,00.html )

Personally, I'm not surprised the Sudanese were offended – jeez, imagine the reaction of some people on these boards if their child had a black Sudanese teacher who encourage said child to call teddy "the lord Jesus Christ". But no one has the right *not* to be offended, and the teacher's incarceration should be condemned in the strongest terms. In fact, sometimes when the government is hamstrung by diplomacy, the citizenry is obligated to express its disgust at a foreign government's action.

Obviously, if you blame all Sudanese – including the ones who live in Australia because they've fled from that government – for the actions of the state, then you're a bit of a moron.

But, otherwise, go for it. I think you'll find you're not quite as oppressed as you think you are.

Dear Belly,

We in the West swallow what people tell us - that the values of Islam are compassion, tolerance, and freedom. If we were to look at reality, at real cultures and governments, we would see that it simply isn't so. We swallow this sort of thing because we have learned not to examine the religions or cultures of minorities too critically, for fear of being called racist.

But of course we must speak out. It would be wrong to elevate cultures full of bigotry and hatred toward women to the stature of respectable alternative ways of life. The oppression of women causes Mulsim women and Muslim men too, to lag behind the West. It creates a culture that generates more backwardness with every generation.

It would be better for everyone - for Muslims, above all - if this situation could change.

As for our life and freedom - our life is better because - human relations are better, and one reason human relations are better is that life on earth is valued in the here and now, and individuals enjoy rights and freedoms that are recognized and protected by the state. We don't accept subordination and abuse because our God willed it. In our society cruelty is not implacable and inequality is not the law of the land. Dissidents are not tortured and women are not policed both by the state and by their families. Our families do not give the state power to rule our lives.

There are 2 matters here, the Sudan and I assume "Sorry" to Aboriginal Australia.

I know that values of freedom of speech and the culture that follows has not manifested in any Bill or Charter of Rights in Australia officially yet.

With the Sudan, that has been going on for a long time.

Broken Matyrs

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=J1W6yZP_tIU

Oil Wars

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=rgZ1aal478s&feature=user

With saying "Sorry" from "us" to "them" it gets very foggy as to where the line in the sand is. Some of us are part Aboriginal. I don't identify as such. So a part of me has to say sorry to the other part of me.

The way Rudd words this has to be really careful. Just by putting attention to "us" and "them" is isolating for some.

Then the economist will have anxiety about what legal and financial implications this carries. I know that the Aboriginal people have non of these intentions after "sorry" is spoken. It can be good medicine and bring us all together. It really is a test of a balance on a razor's edge.

Botheration read my post before using words like moron!
2 issues? no mate ten thousand and more lets revisit the Saudi proposed flogging.
Or do we wander about the streets of an American city and see the street people who work 2 jobs for minimum wage but still sleep in the streets.
First how free are we? I think few true Australian Christians would flog the Sudanese teacher for naming a toy Jesus, what do you think BOAZ DAVID?
I think the answer will one day come from within the Islamic world, extremism and bigotry will be overcome.
Am I free to say some Muslims are bigoted in the name of a God ,who like all Gods never existed?
Deeply rooted in man is the view people who think other than as he.she does are wrong.
Say sorry? who will say sorry to me? for cars stolen wallet taken while transporting these kids in trouble.
Is it not true wrongs are on both sides?
That after 240 years some are not interested in moving on? in education for the kids? in keeping the house even clean?
Can white man be blamed for every thing?
Can I say here in this forum my open friendly Aussie Gday mate hows it going ? was met with anger filled eyes by a group of new Aussies?
I want to believe they did not speak English.
But if white man alone is to blame for the worlds sins I am unable to see a solution to them.

Belly,
Re the Saudi rape case:
We criticise the Saudi political leadership on many issues – and perhaps deservedly so. But on this issue we need to acknowledge their enlightened direction.I suspect a more democratic Saudi, at least under current mores, may have been less responsive to outside opinion.

Re saying “sorry”:
I suspect “sorry “ is just he latest bar we’ll be told we have to limbo under to demonstrate “reconciliation” “justice” “bring closure” etc etc …
I suspect the spin doctors are already in the backrooms drawing up the NEXT big thing/issue – there will never be an end – because certain people need to always spin it as, my group against your group.

(And further to the above I noted in an earlier post, you seemed to say you didn’t personally agree with saying ‘sorry’.
It is a feature of our democracy that when you vote for a party you are seen to endorse a lot of policies you may not necessary favour –but that’s another issue)

Belly
I think its a good thing you opended this thread.
It shows you do think about others so I may? have misjudged you on the other thread.
As every second man is called Mohamed I see no harm in a child calling his Teddy by the same name.
I think your one step ahead of most.

I think your pointing ut we dont want this nonsesense here.

My Dad has always said it wont matter in the end if we take them here or not because they will take us in the end.

I am young but I can see that already.

What gets up my nose is that its my kids who have had to make adjustments to Muslim kids ways.

I dont blame the kids of course but whats the Government and schools doing.
Why should Aussie kids change for them.

Its our country so they should be the ones to do the changing.
The whole world should stand up for this teacher.
Your correct.
I picked up another stray puppy last week and we havent named him yet.
Think I will call him Mohamed- poor puppy
I will open a thread for you belly and call it my puppy Mohamed
If its regected then you know we are no different than where that poor teacher is living.
Of course your right and we need people like you speaking out.

And Another thing.

Its the Aussie way to have a dog. A dog is a mans best friend.
So why bring these strange lot over here than that dont wont and never want to mix and be an Aussie.

I reckon we should all ban together and tell Rudd= No more Muslims or Mosques.
They only come over here to take over.

How on earth does the Government EVER think the two cultures can get on.
Just changing the subject does anybdy know a charity I can donate to that helps starving Aussie kids?
We do have plenty of them you know.

Perhaps I could get the list from Docs.

Every single add on TV is for Muslim Countries.
Save the starving children here there but what about our Aboriginal kids going without.
I am sick to death of giving to cuntries that are basically our enermies.
My God lood at the arms we have given them over the last fifty years.

If the Church want to give them something it should be birth control for God Sake.
While I am at it Churches SHOULD charge for helping any child be it an Aussie or Muslim counrry.

They have plenty of people that work for free for them in fear of the lord so WHY are all these dorks on huge wages.

If Muslims dont want to take on our ways we should tell them to F off.
Morgan go your hardest but the truth is most Aussies are NOT happy with OUR laws being changed to suite them.
My Kids were attending school first in their own country and I say F off if you dont like our school our ways and leave our kids their OWN Culture.
Tell em if they dont like it to F off!
Here Mohamed
Here Puppy puppy
See Morgan I am not a racist I have given this beautiful puppy the name Mohamed.
hes so cute!

What a strange thread. I think that we are certainly free in Australia to criticise Islam or any other religion, within the constraints of our laws. That is, we can say pretty much whatever we like as long as we're not vilifying or defaming anyone, or engaging in sedition.

Mind you, we're certainly less "free" in several respects since the erstwhile Howard government legislated some of our rights away in the name of 'anti-terrorism'. However, I think that relatively speaking we're still probably better off than most - particularly the residents of benighted places like Saudi Arabia or Sudan.

I think that botheration's use of the word 'moron' was somewhat misdirected above - it would be more accurately applied to the author of the most recent couple of posts above. However, I guess it shows that Australia is free enough that morons like TarynW can spew hate in forums such as this without fear of consequences.

Belly, please forgive me – I absolutely *did not* mean to direct the word "moron" at you. I meant, you know, people in general. I just meant to make the general point that people who are unable to differentiate between the actions of moderates and extremists aren't necessarily the sharpest tools in the toolbox. To be honest, as CJ points out, Taryn is an example. (And cheers for getting my back, CJ.)

I did read your post and thought you raised an interesting question. Again, sorry that I offended you, but it was entirely unintentional – merely bad phrasing on my part.

Of course I'm not suggesting that Aussie Christians would flog a Sudanese teacher. I suggested they might be offended by the inverse situation. I was trying to distinguish between rational and irrational responses. Believe me, I think the Sudanese response is not only irrational, but criminal.

Not everything is white people's fault, but, because of our global success, we are part of every solution. Believe it or not, I've had my wallet stolen by someone I was trying to help as well. But, I believe, you can't let that stuff stop you – we can achieve a better society, and we all have to keep working towards it.

And when others let you down, you are free to shout it from the rooftops.

Interesting TarynW - What do you think of the 'flyers' (dealing with Muslims and mosques) in the seat of Lyndsay?

I hope I haven't misjudged you like you infer you may have of Belly - quite amazing.

Dear Belly,

I meant to add - that yes, it is well past time for our Prime Minister to say , "Sorry." Saying that word will not denigrate the story of white Australia. It will simply acknowledge Aboriginal suffering. Their's is a history that must be acknowledged. And Thank Goodness that we have a PM who is prepared to do so.

In contrast to any other democracy, the participation of the Prime Minister (Howard) in the past, had given the denial campaign significance and popular profile. It is the equivalent of the President of the United States questioning the truth of slavery.

Howard gave a certain respectability to his group's attack on the report 'Bringing Them Home,' whose testimony they described as part of a hoax, a monument to 'false memory syndrome.'

Giving an airing by windbag-columnists and those who inhabit the netherworld of radio-talk-back bigotry, their denial of genocide has celebrated the work of second-rate academics, including one who made the astonishing claim that frontier killings could not possibly have taken place 'because most colonists were Christian to whom such actions were abhorrent.' Tell that to the native peoples of the Americas, Africa, Asia and Australia.

Let me say no one in the thread has upset me, every post is of interest.
Now we are free, the fact the thread got started tells us that, to have our own views at least here.
CJ Morgan it was to highlight views like yours, ones I most times share but not always, that any concerns about Islam or a race other than ours is seen by some as racism.
Not so never, my hopes for our suffering Aboriginals is honest, I demand this country fix the problems.
But I question the commitment of some from within that community to fix anything.
Dislike me if you wish, but radical Islamists who Dennie females freedom and equality are my enemy's, once the left would have proudly stood along side me for those issues.
Saudi Arabia? I trust them not one bit more than Bush.
Sudan? one day maybe far less than a century away we will need to confront the element that controls these people, I have no respect for mind control , that relies on wrong education even no education to rule, but our best hope is the Muslim world will take the problem away.
I went without food to donate for the Tsunami appeal, true 3 5ths of that weeks wages but within months simple cartoons, not much at all saw some idiots within the Muslim community call for the death of all Westerners?
Sorry, why hide it? why hide behind a PC blanket? some who think like that are no friends of mine.

Belly

What do you think of TarynW's posts?

Hiding my head under a blanket about those posts, in truth Dogs are my mates.
I could never name one after any God, and while unwilling to take a backward step in debate I rarely do so if it is not needed.
Back however to Sudan, some of those who arranged the demonstration, and some of those who marched have the IQ of an egg.
If the family Camel leaves home in some of those homes the average IQ will drop 50 points.
And anyone care to tell me they are not the enemy's of any western country?
However it is also true every time such primitive backward inhuman actions take place some leave that religion.
Expect no landslide it never will be one, but in time the more moderate may stop the rush back to the caves from the worst extremist element.
How cute it is that so many of us do not find these issues from that part of the world are driven by racism, and bigotry.
By the way my little dog is ok and has more freedom than some women in some parts of the world.

11 years ago I named my brash young puppy Hud, from the Paul Newman movie.

About 7 years ago I developed a good relationship at work with a Moslem until he discovered the name of my dog. Thereafter every conversation began with the question 'have I renamed my dog yet'?

I subsequently learned that Hud, who had no more than a bit part in the Bible had won a lead role in the Koran.

My solution was to keep calling Hud Hud and to fib to Sam.

Palimsest
Thats is a hoot! At least you has a good sense of humour. Guess you have to be a idiot according to Morgan to appreciate it.

Belly its ok you can come out now. Gee a union dog with freedom. Thats different- "just kidding."

I heard you lost your old mate through the office and I felt really sad.
Maybe oneday we can meet up and I can introduce Mohamed you new dog.

I hope hes not racist is it because Mohamed is a very friendly puppy but tends to be a bit sensitive. Maybe its the name because people stare at him when I introduce him[ smile Belly ]

I wont bring him to visit you get because as puppies do he does tend to piddle all over the place.

I hear thats a forbidden sin in some parts of the world.

Lucky hes in Australia otherwise he would be sentenced to a life of hell fire= Whatever that means.

Maybe its life living next door to Morgan.
ha ha ha
Despite what Morgan who is clealy not an Aussie says the culture difference is TOO much.
If you dnt like Dgs Mate your never going to be Aussie!

Morgan you dont seem to mind my kids having to change their ways in their own country and their own school so we both know why.

To Answer the question about the flyers to Q and A.
The flyers disclose that its a given it would turn most off a party supporting the Mosques.
That discloses a much bigger problem in Australia.
It discloses that neither side of Government allowed the public to vote on issues that really concern THEM.
Thats grossley unfair!
The Australian public SHOULD be able to vote on this Muslim migration issue.
Thats what I think of the flyers.
The Government WONT allow the Australian Public to say how they feel.
Thats wrong!

Belly,

I agree whole heartedly. The ignorant mob of Sudanese protesters were unlikely to have had any more than a passing education, which would mostly have consisted of learning to recite the Koran in Arabic. These people are easily manipulated by their religious leaders into a bloodthirsty mob.

To elevate this form of Islam to a moral equivalence of our western way of life is obscene. Yet this is what the multiculturalists ask of us. We are not a static culture and we have learned a great many things from previous generations of migrants. But I believe there is an undeniable clash between fundamentalist Islam and western democracy. The multiculturalists would prefer we swept that under the carpet since it doesn’t fit their dogma. But just look at the problems faced by countries with large Muslim populations. France is coming to see, far too late of course, that the unbridled migration, particularly on multicultural terms, of Muslims into a western democracy is highly problematical. The British aren’t far behind.

Of course the usual suspects will accuse me of racism, which is tired and old and not very imaginative. I believe that we CAN absorb Muslim immigration to Australia successfully as long as it is on our terms. Those terms need to be

1) Everyone must make a commitment to learn English. That will break down some of the barriers
2) Where there is a conflict between Islamic values and western values, they must choose the western values every time

cont'

cont'

For me it is only courtesy that if you are a visitor in someone’s home, you abide by their customs. No one is forcing migrants to come to Australia and if they want to remain rigidly Islamic surely they would be better of somewhere that welcomes this. I believe many Muslims would still come to Australia on those terms, the problem is the multiculturalists who insist on telling migrants that they needn’t change their behaviour at all when they migrate here. I am not against Muslim immigration, just the way that it is implemented at the moment. But as you have made clear, I am not free to say this without fear of repercussions.

Foxy,

Where does the right to equality of outcome come from? The right to be free to do whatever you wish, as long as your aren’t hurting someone else is fairly easy for most people to understand. The right to have the same wealth, status or success as the next person regardless of your effort or productivity is far less so. I would go so far as to say it is counter-intuitive

Your suggestion that the citizens of soviet style democracies felt they were free is bizarre and frankly a little insulting. The soviets had to build huge walls with armed guards just to keep their citizens in. I suppose those east germans who took to that wall with sledge hammers were searching for LESS freedom? The massive paramilitary and intelligence agencies of the soviet bloc were employed to spy on and punish their own people. It has been suggested that up to one in four Russians were engaged in observing and reporting on the behaviour of their countrymen. That’s how much the people loved their gov’t. In fact the people were so free that they weren’t even allowed to decide who their leaders were.

Give us a break.

Dear Paul,

I apologise if I gave you the wrong impression about my views concerning the Soviet Union. I am fully aware of the atrocities of that particular regime. My family ran from that regime - and many of our family members were deported to Siberia where they perished.
Dad's brother was tortured to death. I was talking merely in theoretical terms - so kindly don't preach to me - about a topic that I know full well - from my family's experience. Again, if I gave you the wrong impression, I stand corrected - I should have given you better clarification.

The thought that if we find fault with some from another race or religion we are racist is the reason for my thread it just is not true.
Some blindly fail to notice the crowd hate filled and calling for murder in Sudan.
Yet they will quietly put some of us in the bin as racists, yes I would rather not share my life or country with the worst of Islam.
Yet I understand it is not all from that group .
I however note they as a group are much more loyal to others from that group than we are, once it was not true now it is.
That loyalty is often miss placed, right or wrong not coming into the discussion he/she is my brother is enough to support even crime.
I do grin at your posts my dog loving friend, once do you understand unions fought for human rights as much if not more than any section of the community?
After the Tsunami unionist went to rebuild Asian country's mass income loss was worth it to help , let me tell you one small thing .
A unionist can be the girl on the check out the bloke who pumps fuel the fireman or ambo even the police officer.
Some union bosses are good honest people, a few are idiots one has a picture of a good communist one his shirts, a dead one!
Sky my mini foxy is at my feet she says she is a German Shepard but I think she lies a bit.

Belly
Well my dog Mohamed said to say hello to Sky.
My dog lies a bit too. He has the best excuse Belly. He tells me its a culture thing and he was trained that way to bring down the West.
'smile'
He has other strange habits to. I have to wash his feet before I wash his face- yuk
Dirty little bugger.
Hey Belly- Could you help Mohamed start up a Dog union?
He reckons some of the other dogs around here are racist.

Paul
Fantasic post and I hope you never stop posting your sensible comments.
Maybe you should throw your hat in next election time please?
We need more Pauls in Australia.

See here is the problem. You cannot turn back time. Already Australia has invited many Muslims on to our shores and for the best part of it the majority are good. We told them that Australia was the lucky country and they could dress how they wanted, practice whatever religion that they want, speak the language that they wanted and that they would be finacially supported and be free. We can't now tell them that we didn't realise that they were so different and that we really mean what we promised them and send them home, not without causing more hostility and maybe even war!

What we need to do is to learn to live together and get along and accept that some people have to live apart for the sake of Peace and Harmony.

Belly “but are we free to talk about our concerns without being called racists?”

I would defend every ones right to declare publicly their beliefs and values, using whatever words they feel necessary to achieve accurate and adequate expression, even if some others judge such words as “racist”.

I would defend every ones right to respond to those words as they see fit.

My belief is, through free and uncurtailed verbal and written expression, we promote a better understanding between folk who hold diverse views.

It is better we know how others feel than we live with ignorance to issues suppressed and unsaid.

It is true that the silence of censorship treats all as equal whereas, through their own words, the sage becomes instantly distinguishable from the fool.

It is better the “intolerant” be free to speak their intolerance and maybe swayed to a different view by reasoned argument.

That way we might defuse their “ardour” sufficient to prevent them from action or at least be able to “profile” those who were so moved to act.

Yolanda, “Peace and Harmony” are things which sometimes need to be defended and fought for.

As George Orwell wrote “People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”

Jolanda what if some on one side have no intentions of understanding?
War? yes have no doubt but who will write the history of it?
Col Rouge not one thing in your post is not how I think.
Offended as I am by the Saudi Arabia thing and the Sudan one I think other share my concerns, but not enough from within that community.
Racism is a word often used to stop debate ,never forget my words just in this thread would be viewed in both those country's as worthy of death.
The west must understand our freedoms are hard won and if we let them go it may be forever.
Without free speech we do not have freedom.

Jolanda
No Its not too late. We just tell them they ran out of luck because they push their ways on OUR country to much.
Look public everwhere are saying no mosque in our streets.
The Government should listen before we have the same problem as France!

Islam is a extreme culture. The Koran itself is full of hate and war.
It tells you to kill the west - praise allah
Its time WE the public stood up and had this ut now.
Put it to a vote.
All in favour of floding Australia with these people say Eye!
All against No
The eys have it - ring the bells
So unless you want to be an Australian DONT COME!

Taryn. It is too late as we invited them in. Although I do believe that we should slow down entry until such time as those who are already here have adjusted and we see where it goes first.

You cannot just suddenly change your mind and close the doors as people have family here. Not all Muslims are radicals, it isn't fair to punish the good because of the bad. If they feel they are being treated unfairly they will find ways to get in and they will be angry about it. If we do what you say then we make war not peace. Remember we invited them here and told them that they could do what they wanted. We even gave them more protection and rights than any other race/culture. We have nobody to blame but ourselves. There are enough here already for it to be a big problem. Do we want to live in a country where we are fighting and at war all the time as that is what will happen.

We need more communication and we need to protect our Culture. Muslims have been given too much say. We also need to support moderate Muslims to spread the moderate word of Islam and show them a different way. At the end of the day the vast majority of people just want to live somewhere where they can bring up their children in peace and get a good education. What Church they attend should be their business so long as we ALL treat each other with respect.

When people get angry they become extreme.

Jolanda
In a war most will stick with their Muslim brothers. You make sense but I say Stop it now. So what if family are here. WE are not reasonsibly for their choice to leave their family.
Let them go back and be with their family .
I have family overseas too but I dont expect the Australian Government to be reasonsible for them- Or my descion to live here.
They do not mix
The moderate ones support the others.
They may be quite now - but just wat ten years r so if we dont stop this.
Migrants from the Fuzzy Wuzzy Angles is what we shuld! be looking at.
After all they saved Australia and I dont hear much about us helping them after this dreaful event!

It was never my intent that the thread take this turn, become little more than racist.
The subject for me at least was too important, just how much do we not say if it may upset some?
Can we talk about concerns we have without being racist? maybe the fact is we are racist?
And just maybe some who have in the past and now often called those of us who question them racist are too racists.
I know this much, my country is multi cultural, it worked for most, who can not look with pride at third generation kids from all over Europe the world in fact and not know it worked?
But dream no dreams, it is not sure in any way it will always work.
The freedom most under threat is our freedom of speech, to say what we think, yet in some hands it is a dangerous freedom.

Belly
You raised freedom of speech. The truth is if anybody states the facts they are tagged racist.
So be it.
You cant have one foot in each camp.

Last night I watched a doc on TV about A Muslim group in Sydney.
You should of seen their attitude because they built a youth center in the WRONG zoning!]

Oh my God how they carried on!
Calling us! racist. Saying the whole world was against them
When in truth the council was just following the law.

How arrogant of them to expect the council to CHANGE the Law for them just because they are Muslims.

On and on this guy raved. A total lunny.
He said the whole world was against Muslims and they had to fight.
Great education for the youth.

Perhaps if he had followed the law and the council requirments BEFORE building the center they wouldnt have had this problem
They are racist against us and rude to us.
They do not respect our laws our councils our people and that Belly is a fact.

If WE said what they said about US on TV there would be hell to pay.
WE the Australian public MUST not allow Muslims to bully us and bully our councils because there is ONE law for All and all must obey

I think that the village idiot's most recent post above is pretty fair indication that we are free to say pretty much whatever hateful and bigoted crap we like.

However, the corollary is that we are also free to call such drivel the racist nonsense that it is. Some snivelling racists bleat that identifying them as such somehow threatens freedom of speech, but this is sophistry at best.

Openly discussing inconvenient truths like racism is the epitome of free speech.

TarynW says "The truth is if anybody states the facts they are tagged racist."

This is false premise leading to an invalid argument.

Jolanda's appraisal is more logical and CJ is right on the button.

People who lack self-confidence or self-esteem feel threatened by things or people they don't understand. They become inwardly scared and defensive, if not pathologically neurotic. Not healthy, people.

Belly, regardless of your intent (or Freudian slip), you have opened a thread that challenges us all, and is a red flag to a bull as far as the racist is concerned.

CJ,

The problem as many of us see it, is that the freedom to speak the truth without being vilified is unevenly distributed. Your spiteful response to TarynW post totally ignores the valid point she raises.

The problem with the tag ‘racist’ is that it has become a wedge for political gain. To my mind a racist is a person who prejudges another based upon his/her racial background. Instead it is used by many, including the soft left morons, to denote a person who criticizes any non white person or group. This is an unfortunate by-product of the politically correct movement which the soft lefters so successfully introduced. It is never racist to tell the truth, however hurtful someone or some group may find it.

Many Muslims believe that they don’t need to fit into our society, that in fact we should change to accommodate them. The situation at the Community centre is but one example.

This is multiculturalism at work. I acknowlege that there are many hard working muslims who fit in very well with our way of life. But when you tell migrants that they needn’t change their way of life in order to migrate here, it is inevitable that you will get communities with differing expectations. Someone has to compromise in that situation and it is invariably US. Well many Australians are sick and tired of having to modify their behaviour so that new arrivals don’t have to. That is, many people believe that it is a new arrivals duty to fit in with their host culture, not the other way around. Unfortunately we are already a long way down this absurd multiculturalist path and turning it around is going to be difficult.

So my response to the barely literate TarynW's hateful post was spiteful, while her description of respected Muslim youth worker Fadi Rahman as " A total lunny (sic)" was not? What valid point did she raise exactly?

That it's somehow a racist act for young Muslims to enagage in community-based self-help as an alternative to violence in the wake of the racist Cronulla riots? That it's not OK for them to resist via legal avenues the bureaucratic obstructionism of an antagonistic local council?

Paul.L: "Many Muslims believe that they don’t need to fit into our society, that in fact we should change to accommodate them. The situation at the Community centre is but one example."

Rubbish. The youth club portrayed in the film is exactly the kind of group that has helped integrate disadvantaged kids into Australian communities throughout our history.

'Temple of Dreams' (2007) Synopsis:

"Fadi Rahman runs the self-funded ICRA Youth Centre, operating out of a converted Masonic Temple in the heart of Sydney’s Muslim community. When the Cronulla riots take place in December 2005, Fadi realises the need to accelerate and increase the programmes for Muslim youth made possible by ICRA. In the meantime, the local council has ruled that the location of the Youth Centre contravenes zoning regulations. The film follows Fadi and his team of dedicated volunteers for over 18 months. A couple of ambitious youth projects are successfully realised, while in the background the fight to retain the Centre’s premises goes on".

Full description plus trailers at:

http://australianscreen.com.au/titles/temple-dreams/

Paul.L says “a racist is a person who prejudges another based upon his/her racial background.” Exactly – and this is what is being demonstrated here by TarynW and Co.

Paul L will call some people racist if they do not conform to “his truth”, while others will call him racist if they do not conform to “their truth.”

So who is right Paul, and what is “truth”?

How do you expect to earn respect by calling people who have a different point of view, morons?

Many people still don’t get it. To overcome the serious problems we (society) face, we have to acknowledge each other’s differences and work together to overcome them.

It is NOT about you/me, us/them, Christian/Muslim, east/west, etc. Until humanity converges, with respect for each other, the world will continue to spiral down to conflict and destabilisation.

And please Paul, an argument can not be valid if based on false premise, as TarynW, and now you, have shown.

Actually my youngest daughter now 11, when she was 8 years old, wrote at school that we needed to focus on our similarities and not our differences if we wanted Peace in the world. The teacher was so impressed that she showed it to me. I think that maybe my daughter has a point!

Jolanda your youngest daughter is probably a beautiful child the thought is.
Reality is different, QXA thinks the thread may be a Freudian slip on my part, just maybe I am a racist?
Well not true, sadly I am however a non believer, I think no God exists.
And that religions of every type have divided us for long enough, that just maybe without them we could be one.
Go back a month before the racist? riots, did any of the bashings and threats start as racist? toward whites?
Better let us look at to day the Muslim lifeguards a better way.
But do not overlook racism while always evil can come from some within minority's too.
And why are we locked on Muslims?
Every day I must confront racism , and let me assure you to day it was not white or Muslim based.
If only we lived in the world Jolanda daughter wants it would be great, I have no wish to insult anyone but it takes two to divide giving ground if you are right so you will not appear racist is no answer.
I do hold concerns about some in every race but without religion we would be one in no time at all.
So maybe our problem is bigotry in the name of God any God

Belly the thing is that we are all racists to a degree. It is part of our survival instinct to protect and prefer our own. The focus should be how we treat people, not what we think of them as our thoughts should be our own.

The other problem is that there is no distinction between favouritism and racism and so the line is blurred. Often an act of favouratism are interpreted as an act of racism! It seems that we are not allowed to prefer.

I am married to a Lebanese and we live in the Shire. I don't blame Aussies for getting upset with the Muslims at the beach. They do have a tendency to arrive in crowds, to show no respect for anybody there, to be rude and to change the scenery in ways that disturbs people. Does that mean I am racist? Or am I just expressing my view and my concern for the Shire? My husband went to Bankstown recently and when he came back he was disturbed. Said it was disgusting. Is he a racist?

It isn't just Muslims. My sister was yesterday complaining about how disgusting Hurstville has become since it was taken over by Asians. The place is filthy and grubby. It used to be a clean and lovely place but no more. This really upsets her. Is she a racist? She doesn’t completely blame the Asians as the Council has to share some of the blame, but he streets are not garbage bins.

I just wish that our Government would educate people coming into this country so that they understand why Aussies get upset and help them change. When people come from Countries where there is war and where there are crowds they hold different standards and have different habits and attitudes. They should be encouraged and taught to change so as to show respect for Australia and other people.

Some good points Belly, you to Jolanda.

There are extremists in all religions; Islam does not have a monopoly in that respect … a certain OLO poster comes to mind.

Anyway, there are racists in all countries, including Oz.

It can be argued that all religious philosophies are good (and this is where we might differ, God or no God). It is the leaders of those religions that stuff things up.

The church elite manipulate their followers by fear and control, preying on the neuroses of the weak of heart and mind.

Our problem is bigotry, but in the name of the religious extremists, not religion per se.

Morgan
You are a prime example. People cant speak the truth and share their experiences without being called racist. No I am not racist but many Muslims are.
A family of Muslims three doors from my place are WONDERFUL people.
Their kids play with ours and often share sleep overs.

This family will tell you up front they dont go to a Mosque because they want to be Aussies and they are sick of hearing about how badly off muslims are here.
They told us they dont want more coming because they will only bring disunity to ths country.
I would think they know better than you.

We became friends after my two girls were physcally attacked and spat on walking to the beach after five Muslim teenagers set upon them.
They were spat on and called names like slut and hoar.
The police were to scared to even try to do anything about it when I contacted them.

The sergant I spoke to said the problem is Taryn even if we get them we will be branded racists and it could even start more trouble.

The girls were wearing modest two peice custumes for godness sake.

Not being unfair and judging everybody the same I once spoke to a Muslim Lady at a bus stop.

I said boy you must get really warm wearing that on days like today would you like some water as I also carry some with me.
She turned around and said
Get used to it - You will be wearing one soon !!
Now regardng the Campsie youth center they were rude enough to establish it without checking on the zone.

Its a residential zone. Many of the locals have complained about the parking and the nise which I am sure they wuld do regardless of which group set up.

Does this Muslim guy except that its hs fault for setting up without ding it legally? No

Hes hes screaming we are racist.
I am sick of them calling US racist when they cant follow our laws the same as everybody else.

CJ,

>>So my response to the barely literate TarynW's hateful post was spiteful,

Absolutely, although I can see that a wish-washy soft lefter like you might have trouble understanding that. It is ‘total lunacy’ to suggest that a council is racist because it is upholding its bylaws. That was my point although you either weren’t intelligent enough to pick it up, or you were being deliberately obtuse. I made no comment at all on the activities or values of the youth club. For all I know they are doing a great job. That isn’t the point. We all have to obey the law.

My point, the one which Tarynw is raising is that so many minority groups now cry racism at the first opportunity that many people, including public servants and politicians are frightened of ever saying NO to them.

Todays Australian carries an article detailing the Victorian gov’t’s new law allowing initiated Sikhs to carry knives to school and allowing Muslim students to wear the hidjab as well. Our schools are supposed to be secular if I remember correctly.

How can we allow knives into our schools? This is another instance of multi-culturalism’s ridiculous outcomes. Are we truly prepared to change everything, risk our children’s lives, so that new migrants don’t have to change at all?

Personally I find the hidjab offensive as should all normal people as it is the clearest possible sign of Islam’s outlook regarding women. What is incredible is that the soft left idiots, especially the radical feminists, would have heart attacks if Christian women were asked to dress in that manner. In fact to comment on women’s dress in any sense is considered a sackable offense in a workplace and a clear violation of sexual harassment laws. Yet these people are happy to have their children exposed to this obvious statement of women’s lesser worth in Islam.

When is enough enough? Why is it so offensive to ask migrants to modify their behavior if they wish to come to Australia. The multiculturalists don’t seem to have any problem asking us to change our behavior.

Jolanda every word in your post could have come from me, if you are racist so am I.
Let us not forget fears held after WW2 did not come to pass.
Real but baseless fears we would no longer be Australia, I learned so very much from Italians, Maltese , Yugoslavians, and Greeks.
My family is full of people from all over the world.
No race is better or worse than another, some from the Muslim world promote dislike of us, the people who gave them refuge, some are not religious leaders some are.
I have true concerns at parents of some Lebanese Muslims who brew hate for us, are we free to say that?
Can we ask why the west stands by while Saudi Arabia questions the right of that legal person representing that poor rape victim to question such a law?
Am I free the ask why the west invaded Iraq for murdering thousands of Innocent people while some country's hold whole female populations prisoner?
My questions are less offensive surely to those street scenes calling for the death of that school teacher?
Hope exists that a man of Muslim background is openly standing against punishing that rape victim we should be helping him a brave good man.

Paul.L ... your understanding of Islam says more about your intelligence than your words have ever intended. Do yourself a favour, if you want to have a meaningful discussion about other cultures and the Australian identity - do some homework.

Until then, your opinions are just those of a rant, not unlike those from a screaming banshee that appears to be part of your mutual admiration society.

Belly, this is a challenging thread ... we all have to respect the differences between cultures. Until we do that, as a first step, racial and religious intolerance will cloud the issues that you are trying to debate. Best wishes.

Q&A: "People who lack self-confidence or self-esteem feel threatened by things or people they don't understand. They become inwardly scared and defensive, if not pathologically neurotic."

Should these passages from the Koran make me feel all warm and fuzzy?

4:102 "The infidels wish, if you were negligent of your arms, to assault you in a rush."

8:39 "So fight them until there is no more disbelief and all submit to the religion of Allah alone."

9:19 "Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the cause of Allah?"

4:77 "Have you not seen those to whom it was said: Withhold from fighting, perform the prayer and pay the zakat. But when orders for fighting were issued, a party of them feared men as they ought to have feared Allah. They say: 'Our Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?'"

4:95 "Not equal are believers who sit home and receive no hurt and those who fight in Allah's cause with their wealth and lives."

5:94 "Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment."

9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

47:4 "When you clash with the unbelieving infidels in battle, smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

To summarise: "It's not enough to say prayers, you must smite the infidel's neck with your lance! Allah will reward you greatly."

"It is NOT about you/me, us/them, Christian/Muslim, east/west, etc"

Tell that to the Muslims bombing us. (Lances are so 15th century!)

CJ Morgan: Was I "vilifying or defaming" Muslims simply by quoting their own scriptures?
Botheration: Were those quotes "moderate" or "extremist"?

Ah, well they sound pretty extreme to me. It's irrelevent to my argument though - I was talking about moderate and extremist Muslims. The Koran is a ridiculous book that has just as many idiotic pronouncements as the Bible. Thankfully, just as there are many Christians who won't stone women for being unfaithful or sell their daughters into slavery, so there are moderate Muslims who refrain from ambushing infidels

botheration: "It's irrelevant to my argument though - I was talking about moderate and extremist Muslims."

But the Koran is *within itself* extreme!
It's "The Art Of War for Believers".

Imagine Jehovah's Witnesses.
Only with permission to use machine guns instead of Watchtowers.
Not just knocking *on* your door. Knocking *down* your door.
To kill you.

"God told me to".

Even "moderate" Muslims want the whole world converted to their faith, and will passively stand by while extremists reach for their lances.
Questioning their fellow Muslims would be considered treason, making them a target.

"There are many Christians who won't stone women for being unfaithful or sell their daughters into slavery"

Because Christianity has grown up.
It has been modernised and modified by the social developments of the last few centuries of Western thought.

No such modernisation has occurred in Islam.
Islam is still an impetuous adolescent.

Christianity was about 1500 years old before it started "maturing".
And only in response to the freedom of thought permitted in the West.

Christians may once have killed witches and heretics, but not any more.
Muslims are still killing people *today* simply for not sharing their faith (not necessarily for any other specific crime or sin).

Maybe we should wait another 300 years until they've "modernised" before we let any more into the country, eh?

I don't really like lances in my neck.
Or bombs on my train.

Better to be safe than dead.

There are fundamentalists and extremists on all sides Shockadelic, do you agree?

Their actions are wrong, do you agree?

I deplore the bombings by Islamic extremists, do you agree?

I deplore the bombings by Christian extremists, do you agree?

America is just as wrong with Iraq as Al Qaeda was wrong in New York, do you agree?

“Lances are so 15th century” – nothing like “modern” warfare.

Methinks you are extreme as the Islamic fundamentalists, just at the other end. Why don’t you war-mongers all find another planet and annihilate each other, then we might have peace on this one.

Q&A

Could you not think of an example where my facts were wrong or were you to scared to point it out? That you haven’t made clear what it is you are talking about suggests you were only interested in a rant yourself.

I dare you to point out the area you think I need to do some homework in. Otherwise you're just talking through your @rse.

Ok Paul,

You say “Our schools are supposed to be secular.” Who said this? Is this fact?

If not, what would you say about; Catholic schools and Independent Christian schools (not Catholic) and dare I say it, Islamic schools – are they secular?

Now, you “personally find the hidjab offensive as should all *normal* people as it is the clearest possible sign of Islam’s outlook regarding women … Yet these people are happy to have their children exposed to this obvious statement of women’s lesser worth in Islam.”

Is this fact or just a rant?

Paul, have you talked to any Muslim about why they wear it, when they wear it? Have you googled or wikkied even?

If you did your homework before ranting through your nether-nether you would have realised your perceived “facts” are wrong.

And this statement of yours: “What is incredible is that the soft left idiots, especially the radical feminists, would have heart attacks if Christian women were asked to dress in that manner.” What are you on?

Christian women are not asked to dress in this “manner”, it is not part of their religion.

Q&A: "Methinks you are extreme as the Islamic fundamentalists, just at the other end.
Why don't you war-mongers all find another planet and annihilate each other, then we might have peace on this one."

Well, you'll never have peace anyway while the True Believers are blowing up trains.

If only there were a planet with no idealistic utopian do-gooder loonies, I'd buy my ticket tomorrow!

And where the hell did you get the idea I'm a warmonger who supports terrorist bombings?!
What are *you* on?

Methinks this is just your own presumptions: All right wingers must be pro-Bush, pro-abortion clinic bombings.

I don't think anybody should kill anybody without a very, very, very (did I mention *very*?) good reason.

Not believing in Allah is not a good enough reason to lance someone's neck.
Baseless accusations about WMDs is not a good enough reason to invade a nation.
Performing abortions is not a good enough reason to bomb clinics.
American economic or political power is *not* a good enough reason to smash passenger jets into skyscrapers.

Is that a clear enough repudiation for you, or am I still a Nazi nutcase just because I'm right wing?

"What would you say about Catholic schools and Independent Christian schools (not Catholic) and dare I say it, Islamic schools."

I say: Not with my taxes, bub!

Your children can already go to public schools.
If you choose not to use the service already provided (to *every* child), then pay for any alternative yourself.

"Christian women are not asked to dress in this "manner", it is not part of their religion."

A Christian woman goes to Saudi Arabia on holiday.
Packs a bikini for the beach.

"But I'm Christian, not Muslim" she protests as her hands are cut off.

Shocker, to put things in perspective and to help me understand you a little more, I asked if you agree with certain propositions, you retort with vindictive diatribe – settle down.

I didn’t say you were a nazi nutcase, these are your words … and why are you bringing up pro-abortion clinic bombings?

You answer for Paul about the schools? He was thinking that all schools were secular. It has nothing to do with your vitriolic rant; you really do take things out of context.

However, I think I understand where you are coming from. I will say, two wrongs don’t make it right – you know, “eye for an eye” and all that.

Q&A, apparently my answers to your questions were perceived as a vindictive diatribe, a vitriolic rant.

Maybe you're just not used to people answering your questions.

My God, imagine the outrage had I *not* answered!
It wouldn't been 911 times 2356!

"Why are you bringing up pro-abortion clinic bombings?"

Maybe because of your question I was answering:
"I deplore the bombings by Christian extremists, do you agree?"

"Two wrongs don't make it right"
"Eye for an eye"
What on Earth are you going on about?

"However, I think I understand where you are coming from."

Really! Well, don't sprain your brain too hard, Honey Bunny.
You don't seem to have too many working nerve cells left.
Is it time to take your medication?

Now, *that's* a vindictive diatribe!

Could some astronomer *please* find that other planet soon!

I grow veary of this vorld!
When shall we return to Transylvania, huh?

Culture is far less a threat to mankind than religion, all of them.
Bigotry and hate divide us in the name of Gods that never existed.
That truly is a shame.
No way around it religious bigotry drives us apart and all religion is bigoted.

What amazes me is that the woman could be so stupid in the first place ......but then she is a school teacher.

Q&A

I am frankly astounded that YOU would question anyone's intelligence. I wasn’t referring to private schools at all. I was referring to the schools which are fully taxpayer funded. In other words OUR SCHOOLs.

This is from section 12 of the public education Act 1872

12. In every State school secular instruction only shall be given and no teacher shall give any other than secular instruction in any State school building

Do some research before YOU go off making an @rse of yourself.

The fact that Muslims are happy to expose their children to the fact that women are second class citizens in Islam doesn’t have any bearing whatsoever on my argument. All it means is that it is fully and completely accepted by some Muslims, that women are inferior creatures and as such expect to be treated commensurately.

So yes Q&A I have goggled, wikkied and discussed the matter with Muslim's. I don’t care that many of the women wear it because they want to. In many Muslim countries around the world the choice is NOT theirs to make and they can be flogged for neglecting to wear it.

As for the final statement, it’s clear you are of seriously limited intelligence. My point is that western feminists would have you sacked for even mentioning the modesty, or lack of, of their dress. Yet these people seem happy to tolerate the fact that women are forced to completely cover up in Islam. That is called hypocrisy.

Ise

Every second mans name in Islam is Mohamed, Why is it so obscene to call a teddy bear Mohamed? Mohamed will soon be the most popular boys name in Britain.
www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200706/s1943853.htm

The problem is the limited education that many third world Muslims get. Learning to recite the Koran in Arabic is not particularly useful for a Sudanese child except to ensure that they are an obedient servant to the Sheiks and Mullahs of this world.

Paul says:

“Our schools are supposed to be secular if I remember correctly.”

Humble apologies, I read this statement as,

“Our schools are supposed to be secular if I remember correctly.”

And here is me thinking “our schools” means Australian schools.

It seems Paul really means or is referring to “fully taxpayer funded” – ok, moving the goal posts again (typical defence mechanism) and subject of another thread.

You say you have “goggled (sic), wikkied and discussed the matter with Muslim's” and “don’t care that many of the women wear it because they want to.”

Because they want to?

Well yes, maybe they do … but if you understood Islam you would know their dress code is part of their doctrine, whether you (or I) like it or not.

It follows therefore (and we have certain anti-discrimination laws that Paul is well aware of) that it would also be hypocritical (as well as against our law) to say to these Muslim women that they can not wear their Hajib.

So when Paul says,

“I personally find the hidjab (sic – wiki?) offensive as should all *normal* people as it is the clearest possible sign of Islam’s outlook regarding women … Yet these people are happy to have their children exposed to this obvious statement of women’s lesser worth in Islam.”

He is not only being a hypocrite himself, he is also in conflict with our laws.

I would be interested in knowing what his definition of “normal” is in the context of his statement – but no doubt he will *goggle* it.

Q&A

My argument was derived from the ruling on the religious requirements of Sikh and Muslim students in Public schools. If you really were thick enough to think that I was suggesting that Catholic and other private schools were supposed to be secular then no wonder you are having so much trouble.

>> if you understood Islam you would know their dress code is part of their doctrine, whether you …like it or not.

You really are very dense aren’t you. I made the statement at least twice that their religion/culture requires that they dress in a certain manner. In fact I pointed out very clearly that a woman can be arrested by the religious police and flogged for flouting the dress restrictions. My point is that the way their religious obligations are interpreted is designed to enforce women’s lesser worth in Islam. This subservient role that women are allocated in Islam predates the prophet and has as much to do with cultural mores as it does with religion.

The Catholic Church opposes condoms and sex education. We don’t bow before their demands at our public schools. In fact students are asked not to wear crucifixes to school.There is no place for religion in our schools, of any type. That rightly belong in the home.

BTW When I say normal people I mean all those who are horrified that political correctness has got to the point where Santa can’t say HO! HO! HO! anymore. This excludes those ANAL types who resort to pointing out spelling errors when it becomes clear they are on a losing wicket. Especially when their own spelling isn’t all that great..

>> … can not wear their *Hajib.*

*Hajib* – a high government official in Arabic
*Hijab* – a dress code for Muslims

It is not in the slightest hypocritical if we say to ALL religions that their strictures, icons and apparel are not welcome in public schools. Neither is it against the law. For it to be discriminatory it would have to be applied selectively, which it is not.

Welcome to Australistan.

Population: Exploding (sometimes literally).

During your stay, pleased adhere to the following rules, if you want to leave with your hands still attached to your arms:

No smoking
No rabbit's foot lucky charms
No Halloween masks
No garden gnomes
No fishnet stockings
No Darwinism
No budgie smugglers
No didgeridoos
No billiards
No Danish cartoonists
No Groucho Marx
No Karl Marx
No Christian icons
No Keane big eye paintings
No Bollywood movies
No AC/DC
No tarot cards
No chess
No homing pigeons
No breakdancing
No game shows
No leopard print mini skirts
No lobster
No blasphemous teddy bears
No political parties
No vaccinations
No bird cages
No bikinis
No greyhound racing
No shaving of beards (but must shave underarms and pubes)
No lucky cat statues
No ipods
No cross dressing
No swearing
No Pacman
No comedians
No bacon
No plastic vomit
No beer
No pink flamingo lawn ornaments
No football
No internet
No Rocky Horror Picture Show
No Monopoly games
No bouffants
No circuses
No firecrackers
No Tom of Finland
No Punch and Judy shows
No false teeth
No strippers
No Christmas cards
No inflatable sex partners
No McCall sewing patterns
No wigs
No neckties
No Hummel figurines
No kites
No Doctor Who
No Monty Python
No Tretchikoff
No Mills & Boon
No astrology
No tattooing
No hair crimping
No dogs
No poker
No paintings of dogs playing poker
No questioning of the rules.

Please be aware our citizens have legal and divine approval to smite your Infidel neck with a lance at any time.

We welcome you to come witness the demolition of the Big Banana in Coffs Harbour on January 19th, followed two days later by the demolition of Taronga Zoo and Luna Park in Sydney.

Enjoy your stay in the Lucky Country.

No Shocker.

You've lost it, ciao.

Qua

No I am afriad it is you who miss the point - not Paul.
We can only have one law and we can not go back in retrispect and consider what is their law.

So the point really is- This is Australia- Live like an Aussie or dont come.
Follow OUR Laws or dont come.
Boy how much more simple can it be.
In other words if you want to carry on like a goon and try to bully us piss off.
If you allow your kids to attack Aussie girls calling the sluts and hoars just for walking to the beach- piss off.

Gee wiz cant you read or something.?
I note your kindness to Aboriginal people such as myself.
Hey I know you trouble making lot of wind bags.
You couldnt care less about others really but you go on about the poor Muslims and Islam.
Well let me tell you this miss high and mighty picking on my spelling.

We dont want freaks walking around with black sheets over their heads peering at us through two slits.
Dont give a rats arse WHAT they do in their own country.
This is OURS.
See at least I am nt racist- I dont like black sheets wrapped round people face.
I like to SEE a persons face.
Oh and BTW. Any idea how much TROUBLE there will be if Muslim extremists get involved with the aboriginal people outback.
Nah. I didnt think you would. You just sit their feeling important picking on spelling and computer problems my end.
Leave the compassion for Animals and Aboriginal for me.
Your too busy trying to put people down to do anything else.
Arnt You?

No Q&A, you and your elitist friends have lost it.

Muslims want world domination and like the Energizer Bunny, they'll just keep going and going and going till they get it.

Except, under Sharia, there won't be an Energizer Bunny.
Representational forms of humans and animals are forbidden.

So no Energizer Bunny
No wiggling dashboard hula girls
No tyre swans
No cardiopulmonary resuscitation mannequins
No Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
No piñatas
No ceramic rooster cookie jars
No scarecrows
No peeing boy fountains (triple sin: statue, naked, urinating while standing)
No skull rings
No Barrel of Monkeys
No ventriloquist's dummies
No ballerina music boxes
No ceramic head mugs
No aboriginal lawn ornaments (already endangered)
No cupie dolls
No graveyard angels
No cuckoo clocks
No animatronic singing fish
No Mammy and Pappy negro salt and pepper shakers (already extinct, but you can't *collect* them either)
No black velvet Elvis paintings
No Mr Squiggle
No piggy banks
No troll dolls
No guide dog donation box statues
No snowmen
No Bugs Bunny silk boxer shorts (double sin: no silk for men)
No "fly in ice cube" jokes
No rubber ducks
No Dungeons and Dragons
No golliwogs (already endangered)
No totem poles
No kangaroo/emu coat of arms
No poodle skirts
No sleeping Mexican ashtrays (triple sin: sloth, figurine, smoking)
No fishing lures
No crash test dummies
No cameo brooches
No Christmas reindeer decorations
No wind-up toy monkeys with cymbals (double sin: cymbals are musical instruments)
No tikis
No caveman museum exhibits
No dinosaur parks
No teddy bears (whatever their name)
No Sesame Street muppets
No bunny slippers
No ceramic flying ducks
No taxidermy
No fairytales about little pigs or bad wolves (In fact, no fairytales at all: fiction is sinful)
No Luna Park face
No nodding head dogs
No rocking horses
No toilet roll cover dolls

And my personal favourite: No panel van murals of a barbarian, sword aloft, fighting a ferocious tiger with busty wench clinging to his muscular leg.

You may consider this cultural trash, but my God *is* Trash.
And nobody is going to kill my God in the name of theirs!