Is there anyone else out there who is as sick to death of listening to Howard and Rudd babbling their obscene promises (talking now not in millions of dollars, but in billions!)

These people have surely lost touch with reality,... NOT ONCE have either of them told the people where all the money for these ludicrous promises is to be derived from?.....watch out "Future Fund" or GST up to 15 or 20%!....lets see you get out of that one?

For my money and for what it is worth, I am going for Bob Brown and "The Greens"!.....at least he has stuck to his principles for year after year, (which is more than can be said for the other yobbos!)

Remember folks,...Politicians are the only breed that can lie their way into office and then when exposed escape without penalty....usually giving themselves a pay rise to boot!

Cuphandle has it happened? is it that cold in hell?
The day hell freezes over I will vote greens.
Conservation is far too important to be in the hands of such a radical rabble, thankfully it is not.

Belly:
If the present government remains in office, no doubt you will get your chance to find out just how hot it is in hell, as they will no doubt continue their Neurotic Nuclear policies and continue aiding and abetting the warmongers of this world, because it means money in their pockets!

You can continue to live in your world of denial, but I shall excercise my democratic right to support people with humanitarian principles. People who care,....so what if they try to stop indiscriminate tree-lopping, attempt to reduce the world`s pollution problems and try to save our rapidly diminishing animal kingdom?

No amount of money can ever save this planet from it`s inevitable demise, should we continue on this path of self-destruction!.....Why don`t some of you people realise that the almighty dollar is NOT the answer to all the world`s problems?

If you cannot see the wood for the trees,...let me give you a clue ....just watch and listen to those three Party Leaders and figure out how much money is being wasted by Howard and Rudd in their pathetic attempts to hoodwink the public into supporting them?

Pre-election lies by all parties should not influence the voters. Remember Howard's classic in 1996 that there would be no GST? Labour are no better.

The answer is not the Greens (Reds in disguise, led by Brown) as they would destroy what good we have.

Howard and Rudd are attempting to hoodwink the public (succesfully in most cases) but guess what? One of them will be elected. Then we'll see what happens to their 'promises'.

I think that the balance should be kept where one major party is the Federal government while the other runs the states. As long as neither has the monopoly, they can't go all the way.

Cuphandle lets get this out in the open I proudly am an ALP member.
Just as proudly am no fan of the greens very far from it.
Radicalism is not my path ever.
I truly think conservation should be every party's business and for more reasons than one.
24 to 26 seats, that is the result of the election in my view the ALP wins.
How many voters do you think would rather change their vote? not vote Labor if they thought the greens would have ANY power over us?
We in my view would never win government if we owed it to the radical greens.

Well, Liberals don't appear to be even remotely serious about the changes caused by Global Warming. The Howard government has failed Australia on this issue - denying the problem outright, and failing to set targets.

Labor has at least set a target.

The Greens are offering - 15% renewal energy by 2012. 25% by 2020.The Greens say they will cut greenhouse gases 30% by 2020 and 80% by 2050. They will have annual audits to make sure these targets are met. They promise an end to logging our old forests. And they promise subsidies for renewal start-ups, not for fossil-fuel industries.

But, who takes them seriously? Not enough people to matter. So they can promise whatever they want - they won't get in. And that is a fact.

What scares me is nuclear energy. Because I believe that there is no 'clean' or 'safe' nuclear energy. Nuclear power makes no sense economically. Reactors are costly and energy-intensive to build and last for just 60 years, then another 60 years to decommission.
Radioactive waste remains dangerous for hundreds of years. It is easily reprocessed for nuclear armaments, including 'rogue' regimes.

Foxy, what exactly could the coalition or any other australian oufit do to stop climate change. please tell us so we can rally to stop climate change.
the greens ? well, if everyone adopted bob brown's personal preferences we won't need to worry because mankind's numbers will have dwindled greatly in fifty years.
nuclear ? that scares me too because it's a short-term solution with beyond comprehension time span after- effects.
what do you propose we do to discourage the 2-3 billion consumers lining up for the same lifestyle the western civilization has had the priviledge to.
do you really believe that a measly 20 million mutts on a rather dry island would have any effect at all on the climate of this planet even if we tried ?
I believe that we can do sfa about the climate change we so worry about because it's already happened. what we can do though is to work on a strategy to teach future generations not to make the same mistakes with the next climate.

JACK the LAD..... I was not optimistic about you and I being in agreement about much, but on the Greens we are of one mind.

Cuphandle.. you are missing a very important issue re brown.. his own morality or lack thereof. Principles? good grief.. Brown was adamant that we must NOT censor the flow of XXX rated porn from the ACT.. saying 'adults must be free to choose what they view'...welllll we all know how that works out don't we.. Porn, coupled with alchohol in the indigenous communities, we have child abuse out of control.

But wait...there's more... the focus on the indigenous in no way reduces the impact of such filth on our OWN majority society... the undermining of family values, the breakdown of social cohesian...

Brown, as far as I can see, holds to the "if it works for me..its ok" principle of morality.

I don't like the idea of a practicing unrepentant homosexual having even a zillionth of political power.

I always remember the BiSexual judge in Sydney who committed suicide after being exposed, his record on decisions about sex abuse and sexual issues was clearly 'weak' -so the media reported.

So...please don't connect 'Bob Brown' or Greens with 'principles' it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

Foxy,
Whatever the issues surrounding the Greens, here in Victoria they have been blackmailing the ALP Governments (and Jeff Kennett's Govt) since 1982.
At their insistence funds for hands on land management workers have been reduced in favour of Melbourne pen pusher jobs.
The Greens had no consideration for native animal habitat; it is unlikely that they have ever heard an animals death agony as it is caused by wildfire on one side and humans backburning up to the firefront. To be trapped in the middle and incinerated is the Greens contribution to public land management around eastern Victoria.
It must surely be time to adopt the UK method of first past the post voting.
Then the Greens would be powerless to sell their preferences to the highest bidder.
Logging? Tell me, please, where are the plantations that have commercial grade timber? No, don't generalise. Be specific.
Logging. Where do you suggest the demand for industrial grade timber is met? It isn't in plantations. It must be from overseas where their timber industries are distressingly awful.
Logging. Why doesn't the demand for timber cease? Because we are encouraged, financially, to go forth and have more babies. $5,000 thank you Mr Costello.

David BOAZ I agree with your views about Brown , but for other reasons as well.
The idiotic radical view we can overnight stop using coal is one.
Why is it uncool to say that sexual preferences may well be your right but the world does not need to agree?
Why do so many not understand ALP or conservatives MOST AUSTRALIANS do not want to stop coal mining yet?
Most want conservation but never radicalism?
Or that the greens are never going to run this country?
Once they vote do greens voters understand the blackmail that is used by those they voted for? or the things they support?

So this is the Greens-bashing thread.

Let's dispense with them one by one.

Belly: we know you don't like the Greens, but I'm a little surprised at your homophobia. The ALP Right understandably sees the Greens as a threat - since many Greens members are former ALP members who left the party in disgust at its abandonment of principles in its shift to the Right. However, of all political parties it is the Greens who are most steadfastly pro-union and anti-Workchoices. In your claims about the Greens being "radical rabble", have you ever actually had a look at Greens policies?

Jack the Lad: "Reds in disguise"? On what do you base that claim? There is nothing remotely communist about Greens policies - if you want anybody other than the dyed-in-the-wool Green haters to believe you you'd need to provide some evidence. To some people, anybody who's to the left of Rudd/Blair is a "red".

Individual dismisses the Greens with a gratuitously homophobic throwaway line. Boazy's extreme homophobia and general prudishness is deployed with his usual disregard for the truth. Despite the fact that that Bob Brown is just one Senator who has never been in government, Boazy attributes the continuing legality of pornography in the ACT somehow to him.

How can this be, Boazy? Evidence, please. Somehow I think your rant has less to do with Bob Brown's supposed influence on legislation than to do with your virulent homophobia.

As has been suggested before, extreme homophobia such as that frequently displayed by you is most often symptomatic of the fear that some unfortunates have of homosexual feelings they have that are heavily suppressed - as in the case of religious bigots, football players, soldiers etc. Perhaps Boazy's comment "...please don't connect 'Bob Brown' or Greens with 'principles' it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth" is something of a Freudian slip?

[cont]

[cont]

phoenix94: "Whatever the issues surrounding the Greens, here in Victoria they have been blackmailing the ALP Governments (and Jeff Kennett's Govt) since 1982."

Er, how can that be? The Victorian Greens didn't exist as a party until 1992, and didn't achieve parliamentary representation until 2006.

It seems to me that the usual anti-Green tactics of distortion, ignorance, outright porkies, homophobic blathering and hysterical lunar right foaming at the mouth are at play here. What I find heartening is that you're all obviously terrified that the Greens will hold the balance of power in the Senate after the forthcoming election.

If you really want to know what's in store in the happy eventuality of that enlightened result, I suggest you go here for the real deal:

http://greens.org.au/intro/

All I know is that the Howard government has failed Australia on the
urgent issue of climate change; denying the problem outright and failing to set targets.

Australia is entering permanent drought. Rising lea levels threaten to devastate coastal cities world-wide. A major cause: rising levels of carbon dioxide due to our use of oil and coal.

Yet - Australians have been world leaders in developing renewable technology. What our government hasn't done is invest in keeping that technology here in Australia. We don't have to choose between the environment and the economy. The new industries of wind, solar, tidal and geothermal power offer enormous job opportunities and export markets. By committing to renewable energy, Australia has an opportunity to rebuild our industrial base and ensure a vibrant economy relevant to the 21st century.

Finally, only half the Senate is up for re-election, so whatever happens, Labor cannot win control of the Senate. That leaves three possible outcomes:

1) Liberals win government and control the Senate (as now).
2) Labor wins government, but faces a 'hostile' Senate blocking legislation.
3) The Greens win the balance of power providing responsible review of legislation for whoever wins government.

The choice is yours.

CJ, the Greens are 'Reds in disguise'. My claim is based on the majority of their policies.

C J Morgan lets talk homophobic? is that what it is to both think it is his business but that I have no need to know?
Some from my party are of that choices again not my concern.
Now yes I may even understand the refugee status from my party some greens hold.
As a booth scrutineer I in seats greens direct voters not to give preferences to Labor, see a third come back to us FIRST PREFERENCE.
Why? well yes Labor is not the party of my birth, we too are not the voters of my youth.
Once children learned about unions and Labor from birth it no longer is true.
It boils down to two party preferred votes it always will.
Liberal or Labor.
Best the greens can expect this year or in 100 years is to hold the balance of power in upper houses do we agree?
Is it not also true voters do not share views about fairness and equity you and I do?
Then we must confront the fact self interest is more important that the wants and needs of others.
Labor can do nothing in opposition, and can not win EVER with policy's that are far away from mainstream, is that also true?
Some unions, note the s are actively promoting the Democrats then the greens in the senate, Labor third?
WHY? could it be the ALP wins a landslide in the lower house then is held to ransom by the greens?
Is that good for this country?
Green policy's are often idiotic always radical and seats have remained in conservative hands because of their preferences.
No direction no idea and bugger all chance of me betraying my class and party for them.

Belly, homosexuality is not a 'choice'. To claim that homosexuality is a lifestyle 'choice' is a classic tactic of homophobes. It's not always conscious, and in your case I doubt that it is - but it does indicate some issues about your own sexuality that you'd probably rather not confront.

On topic, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think that a Labor government with Greens holding the balance of power in the Senate would be an excellent result in the short term. However, over time as the Greens mature as a political party, I expect that our representation in both houses will increase.

"Green policy's are often idiotic always radical and seats have remained in conservative hands because of their preferences"

Which policies are those, Belly? They're all available at the link I provided above, so would you mind indicating which policies are "idiotic" and why the rest are "radical"? Without specifics it seems that you're just parroting the ALP Right/Conservative line.

On the issue of preferences, are you aware that the truly idiotic Steve Fielding was only elected to the Senate at the last election because the ALP preferenced Fundies First over the Greens? I understand that the ALP has learnt from that monumental blunder this time.

Jack the Lad: "..the Greens are 'Reds in disguise'. My claim is based on the majority of their policies"

More vacuous sloganeering in the absence of specifics. Which Greens policies are "Red"?

CJ, as you seem to be hard-wired to come out with the opposite view, you would probably deny anything that I wrote in reply, so prove that you're not 'vacuous' by exploring the greens' policies in detail and then see if you still don't see them as closet commies.

Belly, homosexuality is not a 'choice.
C JM, I can accept that the above is true. what I don't accept is that it is being promoted more & more blatantly. In my view it is an unfortunate fact of life just like a decease but unlike a decease nobody seems to be doing research for a cure. on the other hand though it may the answer to overpopulation. Maybe Bob brown is on the right track after all. Personally, I'd still prefer birth control & no assistance for indiscriminate breeders.

Jack the Lad, I'm a member of the Greens and I'm familiar with their policies.

I can find nothing in them that indicates that the Greens are "closet commies" as you claim. Which policies exactly are "communist" or "Red"? To make it easier for you, all the Greens policies are here:

http://greens.org.au/election/policy.php

Well folks:
As the time approaches (in six days) we will see the situation that we will have to live with for the next "lifetime"
of insanity, broken promises and no doubt a plethora of new ways to extract pelf from all our pockets!....(after of course, the financial pandering to the up and coming potential breeders of"cannon-fodder")

I am feeling that, judging by Rudd`s cockiness and Howard`s looking pathetic, there are going to be a lot of Labor supporters very disappointed if Rudd doesn`t pick up the marginal seats in Queensland that he needs to gain victory, for which I believe he can thank our ex Qld Premier "Meaty" Beattie`s Traveston Dam and "forced" Shire Amalgamations!

I tip the result will be a "cliffhanger" with Howard sneaking over the line but losing control of the Upper House to the smaller parties!

yea,i'm sick to death of all the bullxxxx.It doesn't matter who gets in now as far as i'm concerned.My life style has been stuffed by the Liberals and labor won't be able to undo the damage.Howard is a liar and only looks after the rich or young girls having babies.Not one of the politicians has offered a thing for people in my income or family bracket. If i didn't own my house i would be in dire straights,couldn't afford to pay rent.They could promise me the moon and i wouldn't believe a word of it.

haygirl:
Well said!....simple, straight to the point and without all the argy bargy that seems to accompany a lot of these threads!

I hope against hope that on Saturday night next, both you and I are pleasantly surprised at the result!

One can only hope for a miracle in this world of seemingly total insanity!

CJ

‘The Australian Greens will: ensure fair and effective services, including providing interpreting and translating services and using bilingual and bicultural staff’. Why? This is Australia, not the UN. Our official language is English.

and ‘oppose any “Australian values” tests as a prerequisite for citizenship or entry to the country.’ – see above.

Most of your ‘animal’ policies are very lefty PC.

Your ‘Immigration and Refugees’ policies.

Your ‘Sexuality and Gender Identity’ policies, though, at the moment, at least you are not advocating bestiality. Unless that comes later.

Your ‘Peace and Security” policies.

To mention but a few. This is the tip of the iceberg. There is also your planned assault on sporting shooters, hunters and fishermen.

Of course, it’s pretty obvious that you wouldn’t publish your more radical blatantly leftist policies on your website. Those are for us to find out if you ever gained the balance of power.

Oh OK Jack - you can't actually find any "commie" or "Red" Greens policies, because they're actually hiding them from public view until after next Saturday. Riiiiigght.

The best you can come up with is a policy or two that you describe as "Lefty PC" - which is apparently now equivalent to "commie" or "Red".

Like I said originally, more vacuous sloganeering.

Enjoy your last week - the world ends on Saturday :)

I can hear the Bolsheviks coming now... or is it the sound of pigs marshalling at the aerodrome for takeoff?

Jack the Lad "Those are for us to find out if you ever gained the balance of power."

Funny thing about having the balance of power is that you only have the balance of power on issues which are otherwise fairly evenly divided - in practical terms when the coalition and labor disagree.

Not much scope for extreme ideas in that.

Now if only there was a party that actually was interested in "keeping the bastards honest" rather than pushing their own agenda's.

I'd love to see the balance of power with someone who would block legislation which broke election promises or was not clearly spelt out during the election. Unforseen legislation which was agreed to by the major parties would still get through but things like work choices would have to be presented to the voters at an election.

R0bert

We really are the "Lucky Country." We get to elect our government.
We actually have a choice. There are so many people who don't have that right. We can agree to disagree - but let's keep things in perspective - and count our blessings - because there are many.

CJ, when your response to views against yours was 'vacuous sloganeering', I felt that it was pointless to go into detail. Your reply to that was, again, 'vacuous sloganeering'. Kind of makes my point.
It's funny that you expect us to believe that any policies that the majority of the electorate would not like are presented up-front before the election - come on!

RObert, even if the Big Two were evenly divided over an issue, I'd hate to see crackpots like the Greens having the casting vote. Also, they could blackmail Labour or Liberal for that casting vote while demanding a concession on one of their own policies as the price. Enter the 'extreme ideas'.

Jack the Lad, it's vacuous sloganeering precisely because you can't identify any Greens policies that are 'communist' or 'Red', despite being directed to all of them.

More vacuous sloganeering is evident in labeling the Greens' policies as 'crackpot' and 'extreme' ideas, without actually indicating which ideas are 'crackpot' and 'extreme', and why.

If anybody's crackpot and extreme in their political beliefs here, it's those like Jack the Lad who offer only slogans with absolutely no substance.

Jack the Lad "Also, they could blackmail Labour or Liberal for that casting vote while demanding a concession on one of their own policies as the price. Enter the 'extreme ideas'."

True that they may get concessions for stuff that the party they are dealing with is not strongly against but they are unlikely to get anything through that will go strongly against the big players platform (any more than the big players already violate their platforms).

I really don't see any chance of concessions to put through extreme agenda's unless the party they are dealing with is already extreme.

R0bert

CJ, you directed me to your policies and I named some that I saw as Commie or Red (Tuesday, 20 November 2007 10:46:23 AM)). Didn't you see that? You certainly never responded but accused me of non-response. How crackpot vacuous can you be? Oh, I forgot, you're a Greenie.

RObert, I hope you're right.

Of course R0bert's right. If by some great good fortune and unusual judgement the Australian electorate supports the Greens in the Senate, they will certainly not be in any position to push radical agendas.

Not that the Greens' policies are radical anyway. Jack the Lad reckons the Greens are "commies" and "Reds" on the basis of their policies. However, when challenged, the best he can do is point to some policy areas that are supportive of multilingual services and critical of Howard's idiotic "Aussie values" test.

He might disagree with multiculturalism - but it's hardly Communist. I don't think that "lefty PC" really counts as "commie" or "Red" either.

They're just boofheaded slogans that the intellectually bereft utilise because they can't actually argue against the eminently sensible policies and principles of the Greens. It doesn't matter anyway, because the world as we know it won't end if Labor wins the House of Reps and the Greens hold the balance of power in the Senate.

In fact, it might even last just a little bit longer :)

CJ, 'They're just boofheaded slogans that the intellectually bereft utilise because they can't actually argue against the eminently sensible policies and principles of the Greens'. Isn't using insulting terms of the same order? You seem to get off on hurling insults at those who darte to oppose your views. Not what I'd call 'eminently sensible'.

'when challenged, the best he can do is point to some policy areas that are supportive of multilingual services and critical of Howard's idiotic "Aussie values" test'. Are you sure that's all? Lets go back to my post of Tuesday, 20 November 2007 10:46:23 AM. How does 'your ‘animal’ policies', 'Sexuality and Gender Identity’ policies', 'Your Peace and Security policies' or 'your planned assault on sporting shooters, hunters and fishermen' have anything to do with 'multilingual services ' or the '"Aussie values" test'?

Please explain if it's not too hard.

Jack, since you seem to have some sort of cognitive problem, I'll try one last time.

In your initial post, you claimed that the Greens are "Reds in disguise". In your next post you said you made that claim "based on the majority of their policies".

I then asked you which Greens policies are "Red". Your reply suggested I look at the Greens policies in detail in order to discover them as "closet commies". Since I'm a Greens member and I'm familiar with their policies, I again asked you which are "communist" or "Red".

Your reply nominated acouple of specific policies about translation services and Howard's 'values' test, and a range of general policy areas as being "very Lefty PC". I responded that neither multiculturalism nor "Lefty PC" policies are "Red" or "communist".

What do you mean by the terms "Red" and "commie" if you don't mean communist? You haven't demonstrated at all that the Greens are "Reds" or "commies" in the commonly understood usages of those somewhat anachronistic political labels. Which aspects of which policies are communist?

May I remind you that it was you who introduced "insulting terms" like "Reds in disguise", "closet commie" and "crackpot" into the discussion. It seems pretty clear that you haven't a clue as to what actually constitutes a communist policy, and use terms like "Red" and "commie" as slogans against those whose political views are to the left of yours.

Unless you'd care to show why it is that specific Greens policies are 'communist', I see little point in continuing this dialogue with you.

In the words of Victor Meldrew of "One Foot in the Grave" fame:...."I don`t bloody well believe ittttt!"

We have just witnessed the strangest Electoral Campaigning blackout ever, (from Midnight Thursday), carried out by the media, both Television and Radio!

I saw and heard both media machines airing discussions, comments and excerpts of speeches and performances from the past few weeks of both of the major players in today`s Election.

All I can say is that whoever is the loser in today`s big game of political brinkmanship, certainly should be asking for a review and close examination of the AEC`s rules and guidelines!.....I would be questioning the legality of the whole deal in light of what I have witnessed and heard over the past 48 hours!

But then maybe I am once again becoming a trifle paranoid!

Nice rant, CJ, but it doesn't make you right. Rather than answer to the policies that are "very Lefty PC" (of which I only labelled the animal ones, if you care - or dare - to check), you came up with 'I responded that neither multiculturalism nor "Lefty PC" policies are "Red" or "communist".' Haven't you heard the acronym ATFQ? If you don't think that PC is a leftist invention, you are more blinkered than I thought.

As for slagging off, you were first with 'vacuous' on 18 Nov, 8:30:46 am. 'Reds in disguise' was not directed at you, though 'crackpot' was but after your 'vacuous' episode. So, check your facts before you froth.

I've already pointed out some of your policies that are leftist. If you'd rather 'see little point in continuing this dialogue' than reply to them, that's up to you.

Typical lefty PC greenie.

Cuphandle like the post you started this thread with your failure to understand is showing.
Electric Medea black out is the way it has been for a very long time, just maybe longer than you have been alive.
The billions promised in this campaign are not extra tax's or stolen funds from the future fund.
Just for a start do you understand how very much more we pay in tax's for our fuel now?
That government tax windfall returned in tax cuts is unwise but only giving us SOME of the over taxing we pay, back?
Unwise? yes it drives inflation.
The future fund came from as well as the theft of our property Telstra ,tax's we are justified in spending those tax's on better service delivery.
Tax raised on petroleum products may be the only reason governments have not truly come to terms with other fuels its money for nothing.

So Jack still can't point to any Greens policies and show how they are "Red" or "commie". The best he can do is

"Typical lefty PC greenie".

Now, if that's not more vacuous sloganeering, I don't know what is.

Typical fascist reactionary wingnut.

(Which is an example of vacuous sloganeering from the other direction, designed to make a point. I say this because I suspect that Jack is dim enough not to get it).

Belly:
I don`t get it?......Spare me please! I think that if it was pouring with rain outside you would maintain it was too dry!

We don`t have an "electric" "medea" blackout!!...We have, or are supposed to have had an "electronic" "media" blackout!

An "electric" blackout is usually a loss of power, due to mechanical failure, personnel strike etc. "Medea" does NOT exist!
You see just a couple of words and a couple of spelling mistakes can make a big difference to the true situation! You should have been a Politician where you could have exercised your Bovine Excreta to the fullest!

CJ, I have already pointed out such policies to you. You deny that I have done so, rather than reply to them. Is it too hard for you?
You are becoming boring in your repetition of this stupid tactic.

BTW, how am I a 'wingnut' if my ears don't stick out?

Back on thread, the election is over so now we'll have to wait and see which of us is right.

But they do stick out Jack.

Thanks for your valuable input, Bugsy, I've been missing you. This forum needs all the idiots it can find. LOLLDONGS and DINGDONGS to you.