What an absolute PANIC in the government and media over the death of the second soldier. Would this OBVIOUS panic be the absolute worst thing they could do as a result of this death, ESPECIALLY since they think the Taliban are targeting Aussie troops for political purposes. I'm sorry, I'm almost in hysterics over that concept. Going to war against someone, then getting stroppy when they shoot at ya.

Any death is tragic. But this reaction goes to show that Australia's political commitment to Afghanistan and Iraq is as rickety, at best.

What happens if an attack takes out 15 soldiers?.

How many died on our roads today?How many died in domestic violence or death due to criminal behaviour?

We have to get things into perspective.During the Vietnam war the body bags were a weekly occurence.This is what soldiers do.

Do were cringe into material decadence and let a facist philosopy enslave us?If the soldiers of WW2 had such a philosophy,we would now be slaves to the Nazis or the Japanese.Muslim Facism is another name for neo Nazis.

Is freedom of thought and economic prosperity worth fighting for?

Hello people. We still get our self's off the subject, don't we! Yes! I do to too. With so much going on in this world, its hard to put one's mind in one important direction. To put it simply,( as I do for all to read),this is not our fight! Ban all money markets, and let each small or large governments bodies, sought it out in their own back yards. Think about it. We all have bigger problems at home. So, until they are coming up our beaches, don't shoot! AUSTRALIA IS A GOOD FRIEND. We don't care for war!

Arjay
Thanks but I wouldnt waste my time if I were you. Anybody who would start a debate of this brave SAS soldiers death and try to make it a political subject at this time isnt worth bothering about.

Of all the ignorant posts I have seen this one takes the cake.

Perhaps STG prefers to wait like they did with Hitla before responding to attacks on the west .

The cowardly idea that all threats will go away if we ignore them is an insult to every soldier who fought to save our freedom and the soldiers serving right now.

Sometimes the very left and very lost are my number one enemy, about 99% of the time.
Our loss is tragic and we may see more I however remember those flogged women.
The sports grounds turned into public execution grounds, kids and females marched in to watch.
I have an understanding with friends like Pakistan we do not need enemy's.
Tali ban? bigoted murderers? why would an AUSTRALIAN find reason to say we invaded them?
I am both extremely sorry at our lost hero's and sad that many more may die yet understand it is the intent of those we fight to remove us from the world or enslave us in the name of a God.
How can the left not know this?
Not care about the victims of bigotry?
RIP brave soldiers most of Australia is proud of you and we will always be so.

I didn't create the politics surrounding the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Iraq wouldn't have happened if I had that sort of influence.

NOTHING I said was anti....well, anything.

Please think about the topic, the content of the topic, and how you're going to react before attacking what I say. I'm baffled with the content of the comments.

The topic is about politicians and the media's over reaction to a single death in Afghanistan. Like I said, ANY DEATH IS TRAGIC.

PALE, I must admit, I'm confused as to what you're railing against - have you read the post?

From what I gathered, the point of the post was that Australia's reaction to the death of this soldier risks endangering our other troops fighting in Afghanistan, because it will encourage more attacks.

Aren't we honour bound to question this, if more of our troops are at risk because of our reaction?
Some may argue this to bring troops home, but others may just think that we need to reassess how we react to these deaths.

In any case, I think it's far more disrespectful to pretend nothing happened, and not debate the presence of our soldiers over there. If you're concerned for their lives, how can talking about it be disrespectful?

Politicisation of a soldier's death is unavoidable, though I certainly didn't see any disrespect here.

as i understand it, a professional soldier promises to go where he is told, and kill the people there, if they do not submit to the will of his commander- ultimately, the pm.

"bad luck, mate" is the limit of my sympathy. in fact, since since these two soldiers got killed in someone else's country, i'm more inclined to say:" what did you expect?" are the afghans less than human? is it ok to kill them, but return fire is evil? are they less inclined to defend their country from foreign invaders than ozzies?

oz is in afghanistan for political reasons. both major parties know that a large part of the electorate are hysterically frightened by the outside world and demand to be apparently safe in america's military entourage. the fear is irrational, but real.

"bad luck, mate". but killing people who haven't threatened you is evil, and you signed up to do it.

Demos

You don’t have a clue what you are talking about. The “orders” defence was thrown out at the war trials in Nuremberg. You cannot break international war crimes and claim as a defence that you were under orders. Australian soldiers are well aware of this.

Your simplistic and juvenile analysis is typical. Soldiers in Afghanistan are there fighting Al Qaeda and the Taliban who attacked the US killing 3000 people. We are there as allies to the US to honour our obligations under our defence treaties as well as to contribute to a better world.

Your attempt to portray Australian soldiers as at war with ALL Afghans is so typically unimaginative and totally wrong.

Demos you sleep safe from harm every night because Australian service people have laid down their lives over the 2 last centuries for your freedom.

Your ugly remarks show you to be a bitter twisted individual without respect. You belong with the hippies of the 70’s who blamed soldiers for the Vietnam war and called them “babykillers” and other disgusting things. Thank god there aren’t too many of you left.

Why don’t you f@ck off to your democratic utopia, wherever that is. Australia doesn't need people like you.

paul, i never blamed soldiers who fought in vietnam, i was supporting them from the air. i did come to despise the politicians who sent unwilling conscript soldiers there, to do the dirty work that pollies and their families never got near.

paul, learn to distinguish between defending your country, and playing some politician's re-election game. the description you offered to explain why the pm sent soldiers to iraq and afghanistan went out of fashion during the hundred years war.

DEMOS yet again you display your wish for a world so far from reality it never will exist.
Who will show some concern, please show some concern, for the victims of the Taliban.

Paul L., "..the war trials in Nuremberg. You cannot break international war crimes and claim as a defence that you were under orders. Australian soldiers are well aware of this."

I would think a Nuremberg decision wouldn't be required to find moral opposition to comitting a war crime. If I'm ordered by the government to shoot a random civilian, I would not do so. This is always presented as a false dilemma anyway. Usually it's the fault of *both* parties. One is responsible for giving the order. The other is responsible for carrying that order.

Rather than rhetoric I'm going to take two real world examples. Both Abu Ghraib and the Iraq invasion itself have shown that Nuremberg is worthless if no country takes it seriously.

> "Your simplistic and juvenile analysis is typical."

Have you looked at your own argument? Read it.

> "We are there as allies ............as well as to contribute to a better world."

Simplistic? Check.

> "You belong with the hippies of the 70’s....."

Juvenile? Check.

As far as DEMOS comment, it's partially correct. Under wars like Iraq, you know you are signing up to kill people and destroy their private property, not to defend your country. That's what an aggresive war is. It is a war of choice, not defence.

> "Soldiers in Afghanistan are there fighting Al Qaeda and the Taliban who attacked the US killing 3000 people."

That is a decietful statement and you should be ashamed of the lie about the Taliban. Both Iraq and the Taliban had nothing to do with the world trade centre attacks. Nothing. Stop parroting that propaganda because it's at least 5 years old now and proven incorrect on countless occasions before and after that time. (before, if you were a wise and intelligent human being).

Paul L, "We are there as allies to the US to honour our obligations under our defence treaties as well as to contribute to a better world."

Keyword there is "DEFENCE". Iraq is not defensive. Afghanistan is not really defensive, as Osama bin Laden has not been proven to have been in Afghanistan and the pursuit of Osama bin Laden does not adequately describe the campaign to remove the Taliban and occupy the country.

> "to contribute to a better world."

You're in no position to accuse DEMOS of "utopian" views when you offer a sick little euphemism like this for both wars. The millions of people who lie dead or have been displaced would disagree that their world is "a better place". Even those alive are left with the destruction of their posessions, their homes, their infrastructure and the theft of their countries' heritage and cultural artifacts.

On the flip side of the conflict every western democracy has eroded the rights of their citizens at home, and creating more people who hate the west. We saw more terrorist acts after the war and a steady increase in terrorist activity and support for al qaeda. People are living in fear and hatred of one another. Governments are becoming more authoritarian and police oriented. We've seen that with the APEC farce.

> "Demos you sleep safe from harm every night because Australian service people have laid down their lives over the 2 last centuries for your freedom."

1. Australia was federated in 1901, not 1807.
2. No one is coming here to invade. Period. Excepting the world wars (more or less), our country has never been threatened.
3. To claim other service men between wars have laid down their lives is a disgrace, when they have not shed a drop of blood.
4. I sleep safe at night because other countries have CHOSEN not to invade Australia... and because my government has not tried to kill or incarcerate me yet. Your own countrymen and government is more likely to harm you than any external threat.

Paul L, "Your ugly remarks show you to be a bitter twisted individual without respect. You belong with the hippies of the 70’s who blamed soldiers for the Vietnam war and called them “babykillers” and other disgusting things. Thank god there aren’t too many of you left."

Your remarks are the ugly ones. Those 70s hippies stopped a criminal war that was destroying the lives of the Vietnamese people and stopped the deaths of more soldiers. By the way, learn some history before you open your goddam mouth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai

Please stop idolising soldiers and treating them all like the martyrs the military wants you to believe. They shoot civilians like you and me all the time. They break property, beat, torture, rape and steal. Thankfully Australian soldiers have a hell of a lot more integrity, honour and principles than American soldiers so that helps "me sleep at night".

> "Why don’t you f@ck off to your democratic utopia, wherever that is. Australia doesn't need people like you."

1. What utopia? Describe it.
2. Why is the concept of a "democratic utopia" abhorrent to you? Do you hate freedom (no sarcasm)?
3. You are the one offering such naive, child-like statements as, "to contribute to a better world."
4. You are wrong. Australia need more. Much more.

I don’t need a history lesson from you. I am well aware of the MyLai massacre and to try and encapsulate the whole of that war with that one incident is PATHETIC. Why don’t you instead talk about the 5 thousand who were executed in Hue during TET 1968? Why don’t we talk about the KHMER ROUGE who killed millions of Cambodians. The communists far exceeded us in their obscene acts. Lieutenant Calley was ONE underprepared officer with reluctant soldiers. He deserves to be castigated. But he was not following orders, HE, and his soldiers are responsible. So if wikipedia is the best source you have for the Vietnam War it is you who needs to learn some history.

In any case that was the US experience of the Vietnam war. OUR experience was very different. If you can’t understand this you clearly have no REAL understanding of Australian history of the conflict. You use of the word CRIMINAL to describe the war in Vietnam is typical of the soft lefters. If the people really wanted the communists who INVADED South Vietnam to rule the country why did so many millions of Vietnamese leave in such a hurry after 1975?

You say “ Please stop idolising soldiers .. They shoot civilians ..They.. torture, rape and steal..”

If you have evidence that Sgt Locke was raping or stealing or torturing please provide it. My hunch however is that you are trying to besmirch the memory of this man with your personal prejudices. I am fully aware that not all of our service people are saints. However those in the firing line are prepared to lay down their lives in service to their country. (Something I am SURE you would never do). That should earn them the respect and gratitude of the average Aussie, whether you agree with their mission or not.

My understanding of the Abhu Ghraib matter is that those who committed crimes were punished. Your attempt to again paint all service people with the acts of a few is ugly and prejudiced. You have not produced any evidence to show otherwise. With regards to Iraq there was a significant body of legal opinion based upon international law and UN resolutions which supported the war in Iraq. So the question of whether the war was legal or not is a MORAL one, it has no basis in LAW.

It seems you are in need of a history lesson with regards to the Taliban. They were intimately involved with Al Qaeda and were given every opportunity to hand over Bin Laden and the Al Qaeda fascists. Have you forgotten what the Taliban did with the international soccer stadium that was built for the Afhan people? The Afghans are mostly glad Al Qaeda is gone and some semblance of peace and normality has returned.

It is typical of the loony lefters though to support Dicators and Theocrats over anybody remotely connected to the West. It must be a hangover from the old days when the Evil Empire was still widely supported by the ‘useful idiots.’

Your pathetic attempt to pretend that the terrorist threat didn’t PRE-DATE our war on terror is historical revisionism. 9/11 happened before the war on terror. The bombing of the embassies in Africa, the USS Cole, WTC 1, all these pre-dated the war on terror.

Your juvenile nit picking is laughable.

1) Our soldiers HAVE been serving our country for two centuries, the 21st and the 20th.
2) Except the world wars? Well we can forget about those minor incidents can’t we?
3) What?
4) You think you’re safe because foreign gov’ts have decided not to invade. Do you really think that would have occurred had we not had an army, navy and air force and strong Allies?
5) I shudder to think what you’re solution to terrorism is. Flower Power? Or just plain old surrender to their demands, whatever the price.

Paul L> "I am well aware of the MyLai massacre and to try and encapsulate the whole of that war with that one incident is PATHETIC......."

Do you know what an example is? My Lai was one example of soldiers who were caught (for the record, never punished and were lauded as heroes. no justice for the babies, women or men all). It was symptomatic of several trends. Other crimes include the dropping of napalm on villages of people and the use of chemical agents across their country.
Your description of "unpreparedness and reluctance" is yet another lie. Is it based on anything at all or is it apologist rubbish? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Force#Investigations_of_war_crimes

> "Why don’t you instead talk about the 5 thousand .....1968? Why don’t we talk about the KHMER ROUGE who killed millions of Cambodians"

5000?

From Wikipedia -> "Over 1.3 MILLION military personal were killed in the VIETNAM WAR..., while estimates of civilian fatalities range from 2 to 5.1 MILLION"

And you mention the Khmer Rouge for some reason..... Did the West stop it? No. What did the USA do? Aid it. Who overthrew it? The Vietnamese. In 1979.

wikipedia -> "After four years of rule, the Khmer Rouge regime was removed from power in 1979 as a result of an invasion by the Socialist Republic of Vietnam"
wikipedia -> "Despite American and Chinese aid, these Cambodian forces were repulsed by the Vietnamese"

What was that? The USA helped the Khmer Rouge? Pol Pot invaded Vietnam in 1978 and as the regime fled after being defeated:

wikipedia -> "It was unofficially protected by elements of the Thai Army and the United States Special Forces, and was funded by diamond and timber smuggling."

1-3 million dead under Khmer Rouge. Apparently protected and funded by the USA.

Compared to... 3-6 million dead because of Allies in Vietnam War. This is not counting the illegal Laos secret war as well as chemical and landmine/bomb deaths over generations.

<will post more later, as I find your claims about Abu Ghraib, the Taliban and terrorism (small t) unwise>

Correction - The people who carried out the atrocities at Abhu Ghraib were punished.

The people who gave the orders to commit these acts were not.

A significant difference.

As for the My Lai massacre, there was a concerted official effort to cover the whole thing up and bury it at the time. A certain Mr Colin Powell was involved in this but he failed. In 2001 he gave those evil Taliban a "gift" of $43 million to discourage the cultivation of opium poppies and they were treated as honored guests on visits to the USA to negotiate oil pipeline contracts. This happened while they were harboring Bin Laden (who was already a wanted man) but before September 11th.

John Howard has now inferred that our involvement in these wars is to "maintain America's prestige".

Apparently the loss of Australian lives is but a small price to pay for this.

Steel,

Do you know what a stereotype is? Because you certainly seem intent on tarnishing everyone who served in Vietnam with your wish washy nonsense.

People like you are THE reason nobody got involved in Cambodia. After the defeat in 1975 no western gov’t in the world could have become militarily involved in S.E.A and survived an election. The hippie generation was in full flower power mode. In fact it was hippie idiots who, mostly successfully, ensured that North Vietnamese troops had a sanctuary in Cambodia. They also nurtured the Khmer Rouge.

Your flippant comments about village burning etc show your lack of any concrete examples of American atrocities apart from My Lai. What do you know about Calley and the Americal division? That unit was among the worst in theatre in terms of training and morale, partly due to its unique composition.

Your obviously limited understanding of fighting guerrilla conflicts is no surprise. The chemical defoliants were used on US and Aust troops as well because at the time they were thought to be harmless to people.

You leftist simpletons prefer to ignore the fact that North Vietnam invaded the South. You prefer to ignore the many, many atrocities committed by the communists against their own people as well as against the Free world military forces.

You say “3 – 6 million dead caused by the Allies” This is utter propaganda. The North began the war by invading South Vietnam and they were responsible for the majority of civilian deaths. The North were offered many concessions at the negotiating table by successive Presidents but refused to end the war without total victory.

In regards to Hue 1968, (which it sounds like you don’t even know about) I am talking about the MASS murder of five thousand people over 4 weeks. These people weren’t collateral damage. The communists rounded up teachers, nurses, public officials, in fact anyone who was associated with the South gov’t and executed them This was how the communists operated across the country. Hows that for an example?

Here’s a declassified reference to 320 substantiated incidents alone, (including 7 massacres)not to mention the indiscriminate use of Agent Orange and napalm.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-vietnam6aug06,0,6350517.story

By the way, it was Rockefeller who gave Ho Chi Minh the leftover WW2 weapons to fight the French with (and later the USA) and the undersea Vietnamese oil reserves were conveniently sonically mapped on behalf of Standard oil at taxpayers expense by selectively dropping bombs into the sea while the nearby research ships took their soundings. This data sure came in handy when the international leases were sold after the war.

Domino theory alone? Rubbish.

Paull do not waste words on steel, you will not get understanding or balance there.
Taliban are not hero's, the victims are real. how can the extreme left sleep at night?
How can they defame every thing America does and nothing the murderous Taliban does.
The knife that cuts western heads of may be felt on other throats if we do not help the overwhelming number of Afghans who want freedom get it.
Another thread asks why Christians are in such numbers on the net, well the left are here in greater numbers because it is the only place we can not turn and walk away from such dribble.
It is however my view both have the right to say whatever they wish I have the right to be insulted by such leftist rubbish.

STG! Any death, in any way, is a pointless waist of the better of what is in side us. The only fault you have, is being young.
10\10 for your fortitude, way to go. We Australians are, and always will, be the leaders in thought and the peoples, people we will be!
We all have minds of our own. THATS FREEDOM! We are not locked into anybodies world but our own. Like I said before, Think for your self's if you can not come up with something new, SAY NOTHING. But if you have a mind of your own, give them hell.
The leaders of this world are playing us. Their using us, and as long its not pissing in your yard, its fine!

Just a thought.

Belly, your entire comment is a strawman that has a marginal basis in reality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

Paul L. > Do you know what a stereotype is?

?

> “The hippie generation was in full flower power mode. In fact it was hippie idiots who.....”

Here you explicitly typecast both a whole generation and “hippies”. What was that about stereotyping?

> “...mostly successfully, ensured that North Vietnamese troops had a sanctuary in Cambodia. They also nurtured the Khmer Rouge.”

WTF?

> Because you certainly seem intent on tarnishing everyone who served in Vietnam with your wish washy nonsense.

First you wrongly accused me about Locke. And now it's *everyone who served in Vietnam*? Wrong again. My original intention (as shown by my first post) was to counteract the flawed logic in your own comment when you attacked DEMOS, and at least one serious lie (eg. Taliban->9/11).

> "Your flippant comments about village burning etc show your lack of any concrete examples of American atrocities apart from My Lai"

“The Vietnam War Crimes You Never Heard Of” http://hnn.us/articles/1802.html

> "The chemical defoliants were used on US and Aust troops as well because at the time they were thought to be harmless to people."

Nevertheless it was a reckless, irresponsible and indiscriminate act that resulted in widespread destruction, pain and death for countless Vietnamese.

> “You leftist simpletons prefer to ignore the fact that North Vietnam invaded the South.”

You should learn about the conditions prior to the start of the war. The communists in the south would have been elected had not the election been rigged and the people defrauded. Secondly they suffered persecution and were executed by the government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngo_Dinh_Diem#Rule
“...Tortures and killings of "communist suspects" were committed on a daily basis. The death toll was put at around 50,000...”

> “You say “3 – 6 million dead caused by the Allies” This is utter propaganda.”

I admit my error there, as Allied forces entered the conflict later. However, the numbers would still range in the millions.

Steel, make no mistake I value your thoughts less than any poster in this forum.
You may make what you want of that but I give zero value to your understanding of the world as it is.
Your slant on world events if we all followed would enslave us all.
To both over estimate the value of your own ideas and under value those of others is to defeat your own ideas.
I however find much to learn from and use in your posts, not once not a single word in defense of the victims of the Taliban.
No value given to the needless destruction of those age old statues, others ideas and feeling.
Again leftist rabbits seemingly hurling insults at one side and supporting such as the Taliban?
My thought are why? why could you ever think your remarks are balanced?
How can you confer saint hood on such as the Taliban? and can you truly think they are no threat to western lifestyle?
WHY?

Until you realise what a strawman is you will disgrace yourself by making outrageous, baseless accusations against others and have a deranged view of reality.

Here's a hint, in case you are clueless...

Belly > "How can you confer saint hood on such as the Taliban?"

Where did I do so? What was my argument?

>"and can you truly think they are no threat to western lifestyle?"

Do you know who the Taliban are? Do you even know their history?

And lastly,

>"Again leftist rabbits seemingly hurling insults at one side..."

I'm not sure what to say...it's incredible how deluded you are. Here you slur all people from the political spectrum that they call the left and deign to accuse others of hurling insults? Perhaps you think my criticism of your comment was insulting? As the victim of your own ignorance, that may be so, but at least my "insult" was a rational deduction that you misrepresented me, which is correct. Not only that, you failed to take the advice at face value and learn from your mistakes, because you repeated the same strawman.

And on this topic of insults, I've seen perhaps a dozen instances of the tired, old 'leftists' jibe from people who seem to be from 'Rightists', usually morphed or attached to some pejorative term such as "rabbits" (Perseus, EasyTimes, Paul L. and yourself). Conversely I haven't noticed the reverse! Let He who is without Sin cast the first stone. How is that for a bible quote?

Left wing! Interesting. LOL. Convincing one's self, that Iam right, is man kinds invention's. Is that my IQ that has suddenly dropped in the last five minutes. Hello people! Our boys did not need to die!
I see things in the big picture. So have fun fight with your own brains.

Steel,

You say” You should learn about the conditions prior to the start of the war. The communists in the south would have been elected had not the election been rigged and the people defrauded. Secondly they suffered persecution and were executed by the government. “

So its OK to invade a neigbouring country if the elections are rigged and the people are being persecuted? In that case you wouldn’t object to our invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq? And by your logic Saddam and the Taliban/Al Qaeda are responsible for all the casualties of these conflicts as well.

http://www.petitiononline.com/vietland/petition.html
A partial list of Vietnamese communist atrocities

You still haven’t explained why, if the people wanted the communists to rule, over 2 million Vietnamese left the country in great haste, any way they could.

Steel > First you wrongly accused me about Locke. And now it's *everyone who served in Vietnam*? Wrong again
But steel 29/10/2007 Please stop idolising soldiers and treating them all like the martyrs the military wants you to believe. They shoot civilians like you and me all the time. They break property, beat, torture, rape and steal”

How that for stereotyping, or were you just giving an EXAMPLE? Especially insensitive considering the topic is the death of Sgt Locke in Afghanistan.

Steel play your verbal tennis! however it may be worth noting the game is a different one.
Do I know who the Taliban are?
Yes I understand the word means student.
Of what however?
Bigoted hate?
destructor's of other faiths history?
Murderers for sure.
Can I here now without being censured say a simple thing, have I the right in my country?
I question EVERY GOD, believe in none?
I can say that about the Christian God but can I say it about the God of the Taliban?
If my view is right can the world justifies so many deaths ? so many murders in the name of a God?
Your probing insults on the west and silence on the other side is evidence that talks for its self.
Me left or right? ALP center unity and proud of it forever.
Your self confidence is miss placed steel try as hard as I can I find nothing of Merritt in your posts .
You however have my sympathy for your blindness to the world as it is and as it could be..

Paul L. > "So its OK to invade a neigbouring country if the elections are rigged and the people are being persecuted? In that case you wouldn’t object to our invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq? And by your logic Saddam and the Taliban/Al Qaeda are responsible for all the casualties of these conflicts as well."

I have difficulty trying to judge it but in some ways it's a flawed comparison. I don't see them as two seperate countries, particularly as the country was divided by a foreign international comittee and that the separation was to be temporary. Apparently the same party (Dinh Diem's) in South Vietnam that was responsible for executing communists by the thousand and which held a fraudulent election, cancelled the reunification elections scheduled by the 1954 Geneva Accords.

From Wikipedia > "According to the Geneva Agreements the country was divided at the 17th parallel into Ho Chi Minh's North Vietnam and Ngo Dinh Diem's South Vietnam after the example of Korea. This was intended to be temporary, pending an election in 1956, which never took place."

I would have supported in principle an Iraqi uprising. If Hussein had been assassinated *by one of his victims* (not a foreign government) I would not have condemned it. I'm against this unilateralism especially without regard to the opinions of the people on both sides. Iraqis have not been listened to since Hussein's regime was toppled. I opposed the initial invasion because for one, it's a foreign war of aggression against a sovereign country and two, I saw the lies for what they were.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Iraqis+want+US+out

> "You still haven’t explained why, if the people wanted the communists to rule, over 2 million Vietnamese left the country in great haste, any way they could."

Because in some ways they didn't know what they were in for! >.< More accurately perhaps, many those who left were probably enemy sympathisers, party officials and catholics with their religious organisations. After being hunted down, tortured and killed by Dien's regime, the communists were probably very angry!

I have no concerns in my belief America is lead by at best an idiot, that the great country is in trouble.
That a second best team is running for the Democrats, but America lead by whatever team must fight in Afghanistan.
To think laying down our arms and retreating is an option is to surrender.
Surrender to hate based on middle ages myths.
An idea that one belief is the only one the world needs, not all who follow that faith believe this but far too many do.
Why can some not here in this thread talk of the crimes of the Taliban?
The silence is the answer.
NEVER forget lies and miss truths are as much a weapon for some as an ak47.

My heart goes out to the family members. But why wasn't the soldier
wearing protective clothing? American soldiers are fully protected and they seem to be able to still move around quite freely.

Whether you're for or against our involvement in this mess - it's the families of the dead that my heart goes out to.

Steel,

Steel >I don't see them as two seperate countries, particularly as the country was divided by a foreign international comittee and that the separation was to be temporary. Apparently the same party (Dinh Diem's) in South Vietnam that was responsible for executing communists by the thousand and which held a fraudulent election, cancelled the reunification elections scheduled by the 1954 Geneva Accords.

The Argentineans didn’t see the Falklands as a separate country; Iraq didn’t see Kuwait as a separate country. The Yugoslavs didn’t see Kosovo as a separate country. The Chinese still don’t see Taiwan as a different country. I don’t suppose you support or supported any of those invasions?

As for the division by a foreign international committee most of the middle east is a recent construct. There never was a nation of people called the Palestinians yet most people can accept that they do exist now.

Steel> I would have supported in principle an Iraqi uprising. If Hussein had been assassinated *by one of his victims* (not a foreign government) I would not have condemned it.

Your splitting a very small hair there Steel. Its ok for the Iraqis to kill Saddam and overthrow the gov’t, but its not OK for anyone else? Saddam had spies everywhere, the people were terrified of his mukhabarat and he had very effectively culled any likely opposition. Overthrow from within was never a real prospect because Saddam had TOTAL control of the country.

So you would have let the people of Iraq suffer under Saddam until he died, because they weren’t strong enough to overthrow him. Like I said, a very thin hair.

So by your logic, only the people of South Vietnam had the right to overthrow their gov’t?

Almost a million people left the North of Vietnam for the South when the country was first partitioned. Very few people went in the opposite direction.

Millions left in rickety boats when the communists first took over. Over a million people were placed in prison camps without charge. Many were tortured and an estimated 165000 died in these camps

PaulL you will not make progress with steel.
While most Australians ANY political slant are concerned about Iraq and growingly Afghanistan, most understand why we went there.
Most of us are asking in the first case how do we get out of here, and can any victory come there.
Afghanistan is very little different, our problem is we in the west have more regard for life than those we fight, if not? over in a week.
Some use the net much as the very left do, it is only here they have enough numbers to be heard.
And some are intent only on one sides position, have you ever? yes ever seen a post from steel showing any concern for women in Muslim country's?
The dead victims of the Taliban?
The destroyed statues of another faith?
We must look closely to events in Pakistan and wait to see the impact we may yet see things get worse.
However no death of an Australian service person should be subject of disrespect.
I invite steel to write on behalf of those in these country's who want a better life.
Want freedom.

Aussie deaths in Afganistan.
Australia along with most civilised world are fighting the drug lords of Afganistan.
The few Australians who have died have committed suicide in some drug induced state.
Australian soliders are fighting the good fight and should not be used by the author, too in some way, make a move to support the Chinaist Rudd,who has not raised the executions by the China government once in the pre election .

paul L. "Its ok for the Iraqis to kill Saddam and overthrow the gov’t, but its not OK for anyone else?"

Basically, yes. They are a sovereign nation. They have citizenship in their country. Foreigners have no business there. Period. To sustain your argument, you would then support foreing nations invading and occupying Australia, regardless of the opinions of the people and regardless of Australian sovereign rights.

Brock, "Australia along with most civilised world are fighting the drug lords of Afganistan."

1. Who are these drug lords?
2. What progress has the "civilised world" made on this front?
3. Has production of drugs gone up or down since invasion?

STG
No But Nor Do you understand it either.
We can stop the spread there or wait a while until it reaches here- Your choice.