It's a totally dumb word now I come to think of it. From what poverty of power are women empowered? Obviously, a human rights lawyer with two kids and fat bum wouldn't feel empowered if they had to do a pole dance. But if one was a single mum who'd been mistreated by the children's father and was poor, then the money and the sexual power could be intoxicating. One thing I learnt from the one stripper I knew is that it's a very drudgy job (the hours take forever), and the clients are often pretty gross.

At the end of the day, it's a just a job. Jobs are more empowering than unemployment, but some jobs are more empowering than others. I think the average young women would feel more empowered as a scientist or a doctor or as the aforementioned human rights lawyer.

As Bronwyn says, the OED is the best source for etymology, but the American Heritage Dictionary has excellent usage notes. (The panel is the most astounding group of luminaries you'll ever see listed: check them out here if you're interested: http://www.bartleby.com/64/12.html) Here's the dictionary on "empowerment": http://www.bartleby.com/61/84/E0118400.html

Bronwyn makes an interesting observation:

>>I think pole dancing and strip tease are extremely degrading of women, and not just those who perform in this way but of all women<<

I sort of accepted this as given until I saw R0bert's comment:

>>I don't feel any need to think less of myself because some other males are willing to pay money to go watch women dance with a pole<<

It occurred to me that there might a useful generalization to make here.

Is it perhaps that men really, genuinely, fundamentally, don't feel degraded when other men do potentially degrading stuff? Like being male strippers, being the audience to female strippers, being male prostitutes, or even being disgraced captains of industry sent to the slammer.

Is it that we simply don't accept that someone else's individual life choices somehow reflect on our entire gender?

We maybe lack the fellowship aspect of sharing the burden of gender-related "shame".

Although we tend to work pretty hard at the other end of the spectrum, on the responsibility-free bonding/rivalry that goes on at the footy.

It is perhaps this fundamental difference that makes me question the entire concept of female "empowerment"

Bek,

This raises a few issues:

1. Note Bronwyn’s points for the problems and note that my bias is that I share her opinion. That is particularly a context for considering 3 below.

2. Pick the sexist pig. There are many posts so by raising the issue I’m not exposing the not so innocent. I’d rather you didn’t insult anyone in here but I think you’ll see what I mean if you look for the post.

3. Note Pericles and perhaps Romany’s points for the complexity. Some men suffer financial detriment and some women largely benefit (albeit at the expense of their peers trying to gain empowerment beyond financial remuneration). But appreciate that most things have pros and cons. That doesn’t mean that things can’t weigh in a particular direction.

4. Be careful of people who try to bully you into discounting others opinions with the claim that the person expressing the opinion is stopping you from thinking for yourself. Wonder if there is a reason they don’t want you to think about the opinion.

5. Be particularly careful when the opinion is dismissed for belonging to a particular group. Decide for yourself whether or not the opinion can be legitimate. In the present example you could ask yourself if there are other topics that might be classifiable as ‘less dumb’ topics that can do more to increase your knowledge. Ultimately you may disagree with the original opinion but at least you have used your brain to weigh in all the opinions not been tricked into ignoring one side.

6. And don’t forget to wear sunscreen…

Pericles, I've occasionally when visiting a friends place read parts of a book that discusses some generalised differences in the way men and women approach team based tasks. I've not read enough to have formed a strong opinion yet but from what I've read one of the claims is that men as a group will be more inclined to each go do their part without a lot of interest in what the others are doing whereas women will focus more on the relationships in the team.

I've probably phrased that poorly so don't read to much into the phrasing. What I've read suggests that both approaches work, both have strengths and weaknesses and like all generalisations they don't apply to everybody.

If I'm understanding the point correctly it would fit with your comments.

R0bert

Pericles

Just when I thought I hadn't made my point well enough to cut through, I can see by your post that it was understood by at least one person! I thought your comments were very perceptive and hopefully others who read them might come to a better understanding of what I have been trying to say.

RObert

You misunderstood my point. Of course I'm not personally affected if the woman down the road wants to pole dance. It obviously doesn't reflect on me as an individual. But as a member of the broader group, and one who believes passionately that women have every right to stand on an equal footing with men, I am affected. And it is definitely the fight of a minority group. And I repeat you have to be part of that group to understand the feeling of being considered second rate, because no matter what the gains we haven't succeeded in shaking that off yet.

There's a feeling of deja vu here as I'm pretty sure I've had this same dicussion with you on a previous thread.

I think the word 'empower' is a very good word and one that fits this debate perfectly. Think how empowered women as a group would be if demeaning pursuits such as pole dancing, strip tease, prostitution, girlie magazines and everything else that objectify women and set them up as existing to pleasure men didn't exist. Women would not have to live with the constant constraint of being judged on how much sex appeal they do or do not have.

Females of all ages are affected and it's getting worse not better. You only have to see the numbers of very young girls decking themselves out in bra-dresses, makeup, heels, etc to realize that the same yoke is still being placed on young female shoulders and at an ever earlier age and, with the force of today's advertising industry, ever more aggressively.

Older women are affected too and once again in my view it's getting worse. You very definitely have to be an older woman to understand the invisibility factor. There is more and more pressure as we age to undergo all sorts of procedures in an attempt to hang onto that elusive youthfulness. I know this trend affects men too, but I would argue it's worse for women. Men don't necessarily lose the ability to have their voice heard and respected just because their skin has wrinkled and their hair greyed, but women who choose to face the world without hiding their natural aging most certainly do.

Female empowerment I think is an important goal and in my view we are as far away as ever from achieving it.