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pole dancing empowerment

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im doing this assignment for year 12 and i wanted to know public opinions on wether pole dancing or striptease etc. empowers or does not empower women? please include your reasoning and any relevant information.. so far i have come to no conclusion
Posted by Bek, Saturday, 20 October 2007 12:27:02 AM
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I am not sure if you would call performing as a sex object is enpowerment. I suppose it depends what you think it enpowers you for. I doubt whether most men would see a woman stripping as any different from a prostitute. Then again their are always exceptions!
Posted by runner, Saturday, 20 October 2007 5:46:58 PM
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Hey, Bek,

Not sure this is the ideal space for your purposes as you're likely to attract a)only those holding extremes of opinion or b)no opinion at all from people who've had similar themes done to death on these threads. Perhaps a random vox pop in your area at, say, a supermarket or venue where opinions are likely to be more representative across the spectrum?

However, for what its worth: - I had a friend who put herself through Uni by stripping (retaining her knickers, however)and whose philosophy was that if people were so silly as to pay large amounts of money to see something they could see for free on a beach on the weekend then who was she to stop them?

Then again, I've known girls who did it because they had no qualifications, the culture in which they had grown up was debased, and it kept the inevitable day when they would take to the streets at bay for a little while longer.

On the whole I don't think it debases women per se as my mates comment above leads me to believe that it actually makes the viewers themselves look daft. Rather, it is the way society at large treats such women which is degrading.

Like you, I have still not actually made up my mind one way or another and tend rather to make individual valuations than taking a general stand.
Posted by Romany, Saturday, 20 October 2007 9:25:47 PM
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At the risk of being dismissed as one of the aforementioned extreme opinions, I think pole dancing and strip tease are extremely degrading of women, and not just those who perform in this way but of all women.

Women have fought hard over the years to be taken seriously and to have their opinions valued. It has been a long fight to shake off the shackles that once confined us to the role of pleasing men and being there to make them look good.

Pole dancing and strip tease set women up as sexual objects whose role in life is to gain men's approval. In my opinion this trend is disempowering to all women. I happen to think we're worth a lot more than that.
Posted by Bronwyn, Saturday, 20 October 2007 10:56:31 PM
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Oh ffs... you people are insane. (runner &Bronwyn)
Posted by Steel, Sunday, 21 October 2007 11:10:19 PM
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Steel....am I detecting a correlation between you anti Christian stance and 'support of pole dancing' ?

here is what you said to me:

@BOAZ: And the ideology of Christianity has been used to torture and butcher millions of people throughout history. Perhaps you think it should be banned on that basis and start a War on Religion.

Now..here.. when Bronwyn and Runner are openly declaring that Pole Dancing degrades women...you come out with your rather terse comment that they are insane....

Most interesting..and just imagine if I'd said to you (on the other thread)

"Steel...the reason you oppose Christ in your life is due to the presense of a 'moral problem' in your heart"

How would you have reacted ?

It's amazing how "opposing the claim of Christ on one's life" is often matched by an equally enthusiastic predeliction for sleaze.
But sleaze is re-badged and re-packaged as 'entertainment'.

Now..I refrained from making this observation until you yourself demonstrated it... so please dont condemn me as 'judgemental'..I'm simply reflecting your own situation from your own words.

You COULD have tried to argue that Pole Dancing is 'fine' and has no ill effects on people.. but you chose to simply make a personal attack on Bronwyn and Runner "ur insane". As they say.. "point weak, play the man"

Pole Dancing empowers...no question about that.. but the people it empowers are those holding the purse strings of exploitation.
The women may convince themselves short term that 'its just a job' but the dignity of their hearts will ultimately be diminished and degraded..no matter what they think at the time.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 22 October 2007 7:13:27 AM
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I think that pole dancing degrades women in much the same way that wrestling, boxing or rugby league degrades men. They all have entertainment value that is highly gendered, but I wouldn't necessarily encourage my kids to participate.

Also, I find them all quite boring.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 22 October 2007 8:01:20 AM
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Romany, very well said.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 22 October 2007 8:38:10 AM
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Interesting question, interestingly phrased:

"im doing this assignment for year 12 and i wanted to know public opinions on wether pole dancing or striptease etc. empowers or does not empower women?"

At a purely financial level, it "empowers" women to earn money, taking it pretty much directly out of the pockets of willing punters. This is a simple transaction, regulated by market forces, in that if there were no demand there would be no supply. As such, it says more about the gullibility of men than it does about the choices that women make.

At a psychological level, it "empowers" women to exercise a form of control over men, by the act of simulating an offer of sexual favours that will not, by definition, be fulfilled. This is particularly "empowering" in the sense that it makes men look like drooling idiots for the duration, and relieves them of money in the process.

At a social level, though, it might not be quite so "empowering", since there is a significant percentage of the community who, for various reasons of their own, think that pole dancing is tacky, pointless and slightly sordid. Which might militate against any overall feeling of financial and psychological "empowerment" that the lady in question might enjoy.

But stepping back for a moment, it might also be a useful exercise to take a good hard look at how the word "empowerment" itself has become a debased form of linguistic currency. It has become more a mantra than a meaningful word in its own right, and any word that has been asked to perform the gender-political gymnastics that this one has, has a right to feel a little jaded.

You might need to make some kind of judgment, for example, on the question "empower to do... what?"
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 22 October 2007 10:35:57 AM
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Bek

I suggest you find yourself a school that is not stupid enough to have YR 12 students doing assignments on such dumb topics. Ask your teacher if you can do an assignment on something that will increase your knowledge of something other than sleeze.
Posted by runner, Monday, 22 October 2007 10:43:33 AM
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Bek, if runner's post needs some interpretation here is my take on what he/she is saying.

Get out of the type of school that teaches you to ask questions and think for yourself. Find one that encourages you not to think for yourself but rather to accept without question somebody elses claims (specifically the claims made by the kind of christianity that runner holds to). Don't ever question conservative christain views on sexuality etc or try and form your own views about the value or otherwise of alternative approaches.

The question is an interesting one. Some would have us believe that all women are degraded by public expressions of sexuality, others think it has no impact. In the middle are those who think it has a lot to do with the makeup of the individuals involved and empowerment or degradation depends on who is doing it and why they do it.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 22 October 2007 11:07:47 AM
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RObert

'In the middle are those who think it has a lot to do with the makeup of the individuals involved and empowerment or degradation depends on who is doing it and why they do it.'

I think it's easy for men to make this observation and I agree it does on the surface seem a reasonable position to take. It is different when you are a member of the group under discussion. Just as moderate and progressive muslims for example are affected by the negative stereotyping of the broader group of muslims, so too is the image of women as a group affected very much by the actions of the various sub groups within it. Women have fought long and hard to be taken seriously and to be treated as equals to men and I think you have to be a member of a weaker or minority group to truly understand this struggle. When increasing numbers of women go out of their way to set themselves up as little more than sex objects, it rightly or wrongly reflects on all of us and makes it that much harder for women to rise above that constrictive stereotype that most of us want to shake off.
Posted by Bronwyn, Monday, 22 October 2007 12:00:47 PM
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Yeah, but Bronwyn, I'd always thought movements toward equality were about giving women more choice, because ultimately, that's all that rights are - the freedom to make choices.

If indeed some women make the choice to pole dance, well I'd have thought that's their business. Wouldn't preventing them from doing so be more sexist in the end? Ultimately women are capable of making these decisions for themselves, and a number of them will always decide to take this road instead, for better or for worse.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Monday, 22 October 2007 1:08:01 PM
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One of the problems is that the more conservative male types (whether they themselves frequent these establishments or not), look down on the women that flaunt themselves there, and eventually end up looking down on most women. So while there are no doubt some individual women who thrive in that environment, and dont personally walk away at the end of it with any ongoing emotional hang-ups, I suggest that there are several who would face ongoing issues with self-image and self-esteem that could feed into latter relationship and child-raising problems (not that I am insinuating that relationships with children is where all women should end up!). But, as another poster has said, women have fought long and hard for the right to make individual choices, and I would hate to see that choice taken away. We do need to be mindful though of the potential for harm to the women involved and not to simply see it as empowerment.

For those bible-bashing do-gooders on here, might I remind you that Jesus spent a siginificant amount of his time hanging around prostitutes, so I doubt that he would see strippers as being that bad. In fact I would go so far as to say that the Church's problems with "wanton women" stem not so much from Christ himself, as from men's inabilities to think beyond the sexual. At the end of the day its not a great deal different to our favourite sheik's rantings on raped women asking for it by dressing immodestly (just the Church(s) have become a little cleverer at dressing up the message).
Posted by Country Gal, Monday, 22 October 2007 1:34:19 PM
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If you're serious about answering this question, I think you need to examine the relationship between sex work, childhood sexual abuse, and drug use. There are several US studies that show that around half of all sex workers (and I'm not sure if you define stripping as sex work?) were sexually abused as children. (See: David Finkelhor et al, A Sourcebook on Child Sexual Abuse, Newbury Park: Sage Publications, 1986.) Drug use amongst sex workers is rife.

I think Country Gal is on the money in pointing out that there are certainly some women who find the experinece empowering and don't get screwed up, but that doesn't negate the fact that the proportion of those that have crappy lives is far greater than the proportion of women in other professions who have crappy lives.

The few sex workers of my aquaintance have all had mental health issues of some sort or another.
Posted by botheration, Monday, 22 October 2007 1:55:48 PM
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Bronwyn, "is different when you are a member of the group under discussion." - it seems to me that I am a member of one of the groups under discussion. I'm male and as I understand it a significant proportion of the clients of the sex industry are male. The public image of the customers of strip clubs is not all that good.

There are also male strippers but I don't have much idea how their numbers compare female strippers.

I don't feel any need to think less of myself because some other males are willing to pay money to go watch women dance with a pole. My views about the clients of strip clubs are similar to those I hold regarding strippers - some are making adult choices, others are living with some serious issues.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 22 October 2007 9:07:42 PM
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The problem isn't pole dancing as such. The problem is pole dancing in front of strangers for money.

A female pole dancer dancing for her husband and/or partner privately would be fine, as would a man, if that is what you liked.
Posted by Jolanda, Monday, 22 October 2007 9:12:17 PM
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Bek, I think you have a a fairly good sample here of the various views people have of pole dancing/stripping.

It really is a difficult area on which to draw conclusions as to overall effects without a lot more research of the kind that I'm sure you have neither the time nor the resources to undertake.

I suggest however, that you could make a really great success of your project if you did as Pericles suggested and take issue with the wording of the assignment. "Empowerment"? Find an OED (Oxford English Dictionary) definition of the word and, as Pericles briefly did, question its application .

That way too, you could bring all the differing opinions expressed here into play, without worrying that you yourself are being forced into making a judgement that you may not yet feel you are "empowered" to do.
Posted by Romany, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 12:19:20 AM
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It's a totally dumb word now I come to think of it. From what poverty of power are women empowered? Obviously, a human rights lawyer with two kids and fat bum wouldn't feel empowered if they had to do a pole dance. But if one was a single mum who'd been mistreated by the children's father and was poor, then the money and the sexual power could be intoxicating. One thing I learnt from the one stripper I knew is that it's a very drudgy job (the hours take forever), and the clients are often pretty gross.

At the end of the day, it's a just a job. Jobs are more empowering than unemployment, but some jobs are more empowering than others. I think the average young women would feel more empowered as a scientist or a doctor or as the aforementioned human rights lawyer.

As Bronwyn says, the OED is the best source for etymology, but the American Heritage Dictionary has excellent usage notes. (The panel is the most astounding group of luminaries you'll ever see listed: check them out here if you're interested: http://www.bartleby.com/64/12.html) Here's the dictionary on "empowerment": http://www.bartleby.com/61/84/E0118400.html
Posted by botheration, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 9:37:46 AM
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Bronwyn makes an interesting observation:

>>I think pole dancing and strip tease are extremely degrading of women, and not just those who perform in this way but of all women<<

I sort of accepted this as given until I saw R0bert's comment:

>>I don't feel any need to think less of myself because some other males are willing to pay money to go watch women dance with a pole<<

It occurred to me that there might a useful generalization to make here.

Is it perhaps that men really, genuinely, fundamentally, don't feel degraded when other men do potentially degrading stuff? Like being male strippers, being the audience to female strippers, being male prostitutes, or even being disgraced captains of industry sent to the slammer.

Is it that we simply don't accept that someone else's individual life choices somehow reflect on our entire gender?

We maybe lack the fellowship aspect of sharing the burden of gender-related "shame".

Although we tend to work pretty hard at the other end of the spectrum, on the responsibility-free bonding/rivalry that goes on at the footy.

It is perhaps this fundamental difference that makes me question the entire concept of female "empowerment"
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 10:10:45 AM
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Bek,

This raises a few issues:

1. Note Bronwyn’s points for the problems and note that my bias is that I share her opinion. That is particularly a context for considering 3 below.

2. Pick the sexist pig. There are many posts so by raising the issue I’m not exposing the not so innocent. I’d rather you didn’t insult anyone in here but I think you’ll see what I mean if you look for the post.

3. Note Pericles and perhaps Romany’s points for the complexity. Some men suffer financial detriment and some women largely benefit (albeit at the expense of their peers trying to gain empowerment beyond financial remuneration). But appreciate that most things have pros and cons. That doesn’t mean that things can’t weigh in a particular direction.

4. Be careful of people who try to bully you into discounting others opinions with the claim that the person expressing the opinion is stopping you from thinking for yourself. Wonder if there is a reason they don’t want you to think about the opinion.

5. Be particularly careful when the opinion is dismissed for belonging to a particular group. Decide for yourself whether or not the opinion can be legitimate. In the present example you could ask yourself if there are other topics that might be classifiable as ‘less dumb’ topics that can do more to increase your knowledge. Ultimately you may disagree with the original opinion but at least you have used your brain to weigh in all the opinions not been tricked into ignoring one side.

6. And don’t forget to wear sunscreen…
Posted by mjpb, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 11:01:17 AM
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Pericles, I've occasionally when visiting a friends place read parts of a book that discusses some generalised differences in the way men and women approach team based tasks. I've not read enough to have formed a strong opinion yet but from what I've read one of the claims is that men as a group will be more inclined to each go do their part without a lot of interest in what the others are doing whereas women will focus more on the relationships in the team.

I've probably phrased that poorly so don't read to much into the phrasing. What I've read suggests that both approaches work, both have strengths and weaknesses and like all generalisations they don't apply to everybody.

If I'm understanding the point correctly it would fit with your comments.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 11:42:15 AM
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Pericles

Just when I thought I hadn't made my point well enough to cut through, I can see by your post that it was understood by at least one person! I thought your comments were very perceptive and hopefully others who read them might come to a better understanding of what I have been trying to say.

RObert

You misunderstood my point. Of course I'm not personally affected if the woman down the road wants to pole dance. It obviously doesn't reflect on me as an individual. But as a member of the broader group, and one who believes passionately that women have every right to stand on an equal footing with men, I am affected. And it is definitely the fight of a minority group. And I repeat you have to be part of that group to understand the feeling of being considered second rate, because no matter what the gains we haven't succeeded in shaking that off yet.

There's a feeling of deja vu here as I'm pretty sure I've had this same dicussion with you on a previous thread.
Posted by Bronwyn, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 12:07:17 PM
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I think the word 'empower' is a very good word and one that fits this debate perfectly. Think how empowered women as a group would be if demeaning pursuits such as pole dancing, strip tease, prostitution, girlie magazines and everything else that objectify women and set them up as existing to pleasure men didn't exist. Women would not have to live with the constant constraint of being judged on how much sex appeal they do or do not have.

Females of all ages are affected and it's getting worse not better. You only have to see the numbers of very young girls decking themselves out in bra-dresses, makeup, heels, etc to realize that the same yoke is still being placed on young female shoulders and at an ever earlier age and, with the force of today's advertising industry, ever more aggressively.

Older women are affected too and once again in my view it's getting worse. You very definitely have to be an older woman to understand the invisibility factor. There is more and more pressure as we age to undergo all sorts of procedures in an attempt to hang onto that elusive youthfulness. I know this trend affects men too, but I would argue it's worse for women. Men don't necessarily lose the ability to have their voice heard and respected just because their skin has wrinkled and their hair greyed, but women who choose to face the world without hiding their natural aging most certainly do.

Female empowerment I think is an important goal and in my view we are as far away as ever from achieving it.
Posted by Bronwyn, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 12:15:06 PM
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I agree Bronwyn. I didn't mean it was a stupid word in general, I meant it was a stupid word to be applied to pole dancing!
Posted by botheration, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 12:41:47 PM
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Bek

Here's a link to a previous OLO article entitled "We haven't come a long way baby at all" by Melinda Tankard Reist. It contains a specific reference to pole dancing and is a well argued case that you might like to have a look at if you have the time.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5624

Good luck with your essay!
Posted by Bronwyn, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 11:05:45 PM
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I've been pretty busy and not had the time to return to this thread so, as often happens, I have come in again when it looks like its finished.

But Bronwyn, I found your last couple of posts really interesting. You argue "as one who believes passionately that women have every right to stand on an equal footing with men..." that pole dancing, stripping etc. demean women as a gender.

I would argue that "I believe both genders should be on an equal footing". A semantic difference but one that doesn't seem to imply that women have to somehow step UP to gain equality, nor that women want everything men have. Simply that we both are regarded with the same respect, rights etc. Then men would also be free to let their emotions show; to share what many of them consider to be their own genders' burdens.

Therefore those men and women who engage in what society regards as the sleazier aspect of human relations - both as spectacle and voyeur- perhaps demean humanity but not, I believe, either one gender or another specifically.
Posted by Romany, Tuesday, 30 October 2007 12:45:57 PM
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Sometimes we are so conditioned to gendered thinking that we don't realise that we ourselves are furthering it.

I lived in Africa for many years where, as in many countries, the Lion is considered "The King of the Jungle" "The most noble of beasts" etc. I went along with that and even wrote a children's story about a dog who thought he was a lion and therefore the King of his suburban street.

Then, both a report I read and observation turned me around.

A pride consists of females and young. The lone males purpose is to inseminate the pride. The pride do the hunting. Therefore they eat before the Lion and violently repulse him if he tries to get in for any of the choice pieces. When they are full they leave him their leftovers. While they go about their daily activities of socialising, training the next generation, sleeping, etc. he remains outside the group as the watchperson. Females in eostrus seek him out; they repulse him if he is not welcome - sometimes with the help of their companions. He has no part in the bringing up of the young.

He lives a solitary, lone existence on the edge of the pride and, when they feel he is of no more use he is challenged by one of the young and either killed or banished to the bush by the pride and eventually dies of hunger, old age and neglect.

"King" of the beasts? I don't believe so. But lionesses are, without doubt the "pride" of the beasts.
Posted by Romany, Tuesday, 30 October 2007 1:02:00 PM
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Romany

Just happened to notice by chance that the thread had been added to!

"I would argue that 'I believe both genders should be on an equal footing'. A semantic difference but one that doesn't seem to imply that women have to somehow step UP to gain equality, nor that women want everything men have. Simply that we both are regarded with the same respect, rights etc. Then men would also be free to let their emotions show; to share what many of them consider to be their own genders' burdens."

Well said, I applaud every word.

I agree the onus shouldn't be on women to have to 'step up' to gain equality. In my opinion though the gap is definitely there and like it or not if we are to bridge that space women will have to make that step. We might have equality of opportunity, though even the reality of that for most women is still far removed from the lip service paid to it. But we are still not on the same footing when it comes to having a respected voice in decision making and being able to achieve the same degree of control in the way society is organised. That's why I get cranky about things like pole dancing. I see it as lead in the saddle bag, holding us all back from achieving that step up.

I agree with you that it's demeaning to all humanity but I don't think it contains men in the way it does women.
Posted by Bronwyn, Friday, 2 November 2007 10:16:56 AM
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