What is bleeding obvious Boaz is the inability you have to think and discuss beyong your blinkered frame of reference.

"That....is my point. Both would be living according to the 'morality' they have developed. Both were developed based on survival. Who is to say which is 'more moral'?"

There is no fundmental requirement for people to behave cooperatively, that they must be Christian. That is what you would like to think would happen. Why would individuals, when isolted, behave immorally, yet didn't when in the communities where they were socialised? Why would unacceptable behaviours be acted out simply because they found themselves isolated? You imply that the propensity to behave in any unacceptble way at all is simmering away in people just waiting for the chance to be acted out. Why wouldn't they continue to behave in the same acceptable way when isolated?

Quite the opposite has occurred where the need and wish to get on with ones' fellow man is the domonating factor is groups finding themselves is unexpected circumstances.

And please, no Lord of the Flies examples. It was a work of fiction after all.

Err..Lord of the rings? How about Lord of the rings?

I agree Spanky. 'Lord of the Rings' is a much better work of fiction than 'Lord of the Flies'... or 'Lord Jesus' for that matter :)

And Boazy, the thread topic isn't actually 'Jesus' - if you read Spanky's first post it's about why threads in this forum all too often get diverted to being about religion.

Lord of the Flies....a story of school age boys marooned on an island and the ensuing breakdown of order and cooperation between them.

"Lord of the Flies is a thought-provoking novel authored by William Golding in 1954. The book describes in detail the horrific exploits of a band of young children who make a striking transition from civilized to barbaric. Lord of the Flies commands a pessimistic outlook that seems to show that man is inherently tied to society, and without it, we would likely return to savagery."

From here http://www.gerenser.com/lotf/

Interestingly the author sees the breakdown as being due to the break from society, not religion. But as I said, it's fiction not fact. Just the same, a great read.

Ditch,
William Golding was a master in a private religious school. The title of his book "Lord of the flies" in the Biblical text refers to Baalzebub of the Caananite religion meaning god of death, and the concept of Baalzebub is of seething fly maggots in a dead carcus. Baalzebub from the Arabic text refers to the god of the underworld.

Golding is dealing with the nature of evil that lies in the heart of every man who is capable of killing the most moral and sensitive of characters - notably Jesus who gave us divine light on forgivness and grace and unselfishly serving each other.

Hi Ditch...

you responded to something...but not my point.

I am arguing that without a divine reference point, all morality and systems of it.. are relative. You made a good point, but I think it escaped you on the way through to the keeper.

"Why wouldn't they continue to behave in the same acceptable way when isolated?"

Answer: because I said in my example "limited resources".

I don't know if you have ever encountered a shortage of a staple commodity in a multi racial community, but I have, and it's quite scary. Kerosine... was the fuel on which most households in the part of Malaysia I was in, depended to cook food. One day.. it became a shortage... LINES.... and.. then it kind of degenerated quickly into ethnic groups.. my mob.. his mob.. their mob.. then to pushing in line... taking others places... with the unspoken support of 'my mob' so to speak. If you were Chinese or Christian ... you didn't matter to the 'other' group .. Malays.

If you want to know just how bad human behavior can get during difficult times read up on the fall of Jerusalem in AD70 by Josephus.

So...the issue remains.. that morality is relative, apart from God. This is a philosphical and reason based position.. no matter how you perceive it in practice and in your experience.

I can agree with what you said.. that people generally act in accordance with inherited values. But without God, they know deep down that its about what they can get away with, and when the pressure is on.... they will get away with whatever they can.