Immigration Minister Mr Kevin Andrews says some African communities have been slow to integrate with the wider community. (AAP: Alan Porritt)

He says that is one of the reasons the Federal Government decided in August to reduce the intake of African refugees from 70 per cent to 30 per cent over the last two years, in favour of increased numbers from the Middle East and Asia."

The Ethnic Communities Council has slammed the Federal Government's decision to cut the intake of African refugees into Australia, the council's chair Phong Nguyen says deciding to cut the refugees on those grounds is shocking.

I guess there are at least two questions I would like to ask before we descend into an arena of hype and over-reaction:

1. What (if any) rights do countries who are signatories to various agreements about refugees have in selecting from the millions of people who have been classified as refugees by the UNHCR?
2. What if any rights do refugees have in selecting the country that they would like to settle in?

Before we all rush in to either support or lambast the minister's statement or indeed the Australian government's position as stated by him I think it would be worthwhile to explore those two questions.

If refugees have "rights" to stipulate the country in which they would like to be settled then let's see where this has been agreed and what those rights are.

If countries have a right to determine the nature and the number of refugees that they welcome into their countries, then let's hear what has been agreed and what those rights are.

Once these matters have been exposed to a public airing THEN I suspect we will be in a position to make informed comment.

Until then we are at risk of making ignorant comments. Would anyone care to provide some information about these matters?

Garpet..responding to "2" in your piece..

Refugeees have NO rights to select the country they want..that..is called COUNTRY SHOPPING.

The ONLY people who should decide who enters any country are those who live there.. through their elected governments.

If our signatory status gets in the way of our selecting people on the grounds of cultural, religious and political compatability then REMOVE OUR SIGNATURE in my view.

Issues such as 'polygamy' and 'doctrinally enshrined child abuse', enshrined religious vilification and racial hatred are huge disqualifiers for anyone who might seek to come here as a refugee.

David
This is a Christian country. We should bring Christians first - simple.
I much prefer healthy well checked Afican christians. In England churches have been taken over by Mosques build from the rich resources of oil fields from Saudi.
They say England will be the first to be diverted to Islam.
Not happy Jan

garpet1

Your questions are straight-forward:

1. What (if any) rights do countries who are signatories to various agreements about refugees have in selecting from the millions of people who have been classified as refugees by the UNHCR?
2. What if any rights do refugees have in selecting the country that they would like to settle in?

The answers are straight-forward too. You'll find them on the official Immigration Department site for example at: http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/pdf/964i.pdf

In brief, UNHCR gives advice which may or may not be accepted by the Australian Government as to need and priorities. It is the Government which decides who comes to this country and the manner in which they come (remember Howard's children overboard and Tampa lies?). There are very strict rules about qualifying for a place.

The exception are the asylum seekers who come or try to come directly to Australia to be deemed to be refugees. These are detained while their status is being determined by Immigration.

Successive Australian Governments have shown time and time again that the concept of rights for refugees is illusory - and especially in the lead-up to an election. Humanitarian generosity and talk of rights always give way to the dog whistle of race and timely campaigns of disinformation. The sad thing is that the whistle is heard loud and clear and picked up on blogs like this (often by those claiming to be Christians - hypocrits!).

The media play their part with screaming headlines and confused reporting. This morning Barry Cassidy on ABC radio confused the Immigration progam (up to 150,000 this year) with the refugee program (13,000 this year as usual).

Refugees' needs are desperately urgent and the colour of their skin should play no part in the Government's decision.

I am ashamed to be associated on the same page with comments from "People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming".

Talk about Un-Australian and un-Christian comments! I am surprised that someone else has not commented that this is likely to create racial hatred.

Australia is a multicultural and multi-ethnic country. Prejudice against those from cultures and religions that are not the same as yours is an anathema to anyone who can think - much less anyone who calls him or herself a Christian!

I'm pretty disgusted by that comment as well PALE.
I hope this is your personal view and not that of the organisation.

To openly state that it should just be christians chosen is discrimination, plain and simple.

As an agnostic who has immigrated to Australia, but now calls himself Australian, I'm somewhat unimpressed. Is it just refugees you'd like to extend this to, or all immigrants?

Even if it's just refugees, I suppose it's their own fault they're being persecuted right?

Maybe it's only the christians that are worth saving huh?

More evidence that Kevin Andrews is completely out of touch - the idea that the people who need the most help should be the ones we're turning away cannot possibly one that appeals to most Australians.
Not to mention the fact that "Africans" is an absurd category on which to base judgement - I gather that means educated skilled applicants from relatively peaceful democracies like South Africa are to be rejected in favour of those who have grown up in non-African cultures of violence, intolerance and discrimination?
While I don't hold much hope for getting the 10.7% swing needed against him this election, if Mr Andrews is still my local representative in 4 years, I will be moving.

I think there may be a problem here that many contributors are unaware of.
First may I say that refugees do not, under international law, have any right to stipulate which country they wish to live in. They can of course make a request of the first country they arrive in but, at that point, they are no longer refugees. This is something which is often misunderstood. Australia has very few people who qualify as refugees or asylum seekers although they naturally receive people who have qualified (or should have qualified) elsewhere.
The other problem here though is a cultural one and often relates quite specifically to men from some areas of Africa. They have often never had what we would think of as a regular job where they have been required to attend work each day for a set period at set times.
They hunt when necessary but it is the role of women to be providers and carers.
The government's apparently racist response has been made on the grounds that some of the men (sufficient to cause concern) have returned to war zones in preference to taking up regular employment here. Some men I have spoken to feel insulted that they are expected to take up paid employment. It is not in their cultural background.
I am not condemning or condoning their response merely stating it.
When this is understood the government's response becomes understandable and I hope it will help some of the correspondents here understand as well.

Dear FrankGol

that was a remarkably restrained and balanced post... you didn't have to slide into the 'cynic' mode though.. we get the point..and you reference to the Government deciding was most welcome. I hardly think that any of us would like some ratbag in some remote office (who may or may not have been 'encouraged') to make decisions which can effect our culture, social and political climate.

I'm going to live dangerously here.. and actually agree with Pale. At least in part.
Why ? well it boils down to this if we have a choice between those who hold dear..the same values as us.. and have the best chance of adapting, integrating and assimilating.. and another group who are the opposite.. well clearly.. common sense tells us to choose the 'more suitable'. It just so happens that our social values and culture are largely shaped by the JudaoChristian ethic..and values.. no matter how many people currently attend Church services.
The underlying values are still there.

EXAMPLES.. I cannot imagine what our society would be like of we brought large numbers of people who practice FGM.. or.. child marriage.. or..honour killings of 'naughty' females who go against the fathers wish...or.. 'multiple wives' and some them might even be children..and EVEN pre-pubesecent children.

So, I have NO problem discriminating against such values and people who hold them.. so YES.. it IS discriminatory and jolly rightly and wisely so.

Garpet.. forget the 'moral outrage' approach.. trust me Pale is quite robust and so am I. This forum is not for the namby pamby nor the faint hearted. The only thing you may be assured of..is you wont find profanity here.

But if ur looking for Political Correctness.. not from me that's for sure.
Oh..Frank... one more thing.. you should also forget the 'hypocrite' approach.. wasting time mate.. I know the reasons for my views and they are very responsible.. nothing hypocritical about it at all.

HAVING said all that......

I've been waiting for Tampa 07..and to be honest..I think this is it.
(The 'No more Africans' thing)..
Well..it seems that Pauline Hanson is again being the tail which wags the dog..and the dog is the Coalition ..again. But clearly, the Coalition is smelling votes in it... and trying again to play 'catch-up' politics. (to Pauline)

Sadly..the REAL issue is being clouded here..and I don't know how much is the Media beat up and how much is actual Coalition policy.

LABOR is with them on the current issue..but it is not just 'africans' because they are black nor that they are 'AFricans'...its about REGIONAL QUOTA'S and this is a good thing.

I have been harping for ages about NOT ALLOWING any one ethnic or religious group to come here in large numbers (Unless compatable) and the only way to achieve this is to have quotas based on.. among other things. Race.. Country.. Religion.. etc.
To do this..does not mean you regard any one as 'inferior' it just means you have actually read a few history books and know the wisest course in the long run.

The HOWLS going up from various ethnic leaders..shows their true colors.. "We want OUR group to have a better deal"...
Well.. sorry.. this country will be managed according to 'our' agenda..not yours ...

David,

I try to make my posts 'restrained and balanced', sticking to evidence-based facts and rationally-argued opinions.

Your position is understandable but selfish - what you call the 'most suitable' refugees are those most like you. As a Christian I thought you might see that those in the greatest need might have a desrving case.

The tired examples you give of unwelcome 'cultural' practices are the usual Aunt Sallys. You well know that they are illegal in Australia and there are no attempts to allow them to become legal.

What I've learned about hypocrits is that there are two types. Those who are conscious of their hypocrisy and those for whom it is an unconscious failing arising from ignorance, confusion and inability to be intellectually consistent.

For example, your finding your anticipated Tampa 07 - the ('No more Africans' thing - your rationalsing of racial discrimination as REGIONAL QUOTA'S is bizarre. You say you've 'been harping for ages about NOT ALLOWING any one ethnic or religious group to come here in large numbers (Unless compatable) and the only way to achieve this is to have quotas based on.. among other things Race.. Country.. Religion.. etc'. So are we discriminating on the grounds of race or not?

Furthermore, on what you call 'large numbers', here are the facts. The 'Top Ten' figures for Offshore refugees in 2005-06 were: Sudan 3726; Iraq 2150; Afghanistan 1799; Burma/Myanmar 1118; Liberia 888; Burundi 740; Sierra Leone 460; Congo (DRC) 363; Eritrea 274; Iran 232; and Others 1008. The overall migrant intake was 131,600. So what's your definition of 'large numbers'?

In 2005-2006 immigrants came from nearly 200 countries. Most were born in the UK and New Zealand (32.1%) followed by China (8.0%), India (8.6%) and the Philippines (3.9%). The 'large numbers' of 'Africans' was hardly a blip on the radar.

You explain the 'HOWLS going up from various ethnic leaders' about shutting the door on 'Africans' as mere self-interest. How do you explain the HOWLS going up from (white) Christian church leaders?

Regarding the desirability of restraining the numbers of refugees/immigrants with cultures and value-systems significantly at variance with Australia's (which I won't dismiss out of hand), why is regional quotas the way to address this? There is just as much variation in cultural and religious beliefs among, say, residents of Baghdad than there is among residents of East African nations. If the purpose is truly to prevent integration issues, then the decision to accept or reject refugess should be made on the basis of an informed decision that takes each individual's background into account, not on the basis of what continent they happen to live on. Anything else *is* racism or at the very least "regionism", no matter which way you frame it.

However, before even getting to this stage, you need to at least make a case that there are significant integration issues that can't feasibly addressed in a more humane manner, which I am certainly yet to be convinced on.

There seems to be a strong link between being a (professed) Christian, and being singularly uncharitable to fellow human beings.

Am I the only one to notice this?

Thanks for all of your comments to date - I have been learning the "rules of debate" - at least as all of you have been stating them along the way.

So let's cut to the chase. I am not being namby pamby by voicing my outrage about racism - just sensible - if one group can be outed today then what guarantee is there that another (mine or yours) will not be next? That is the lesson of history that I am afraid that I have learned based on both the Nazi and the Communist experiences.

That said - let me move on to a more interesting question.

Assuming that international law does give a country a right to set quotas and to select from among the millions who have been classified as refugees can we afford to have any more people coming to Australia at all?

If the pundits are right then we have stuffed up our use of the meagre water resources in this country to such an extent that we no longer have adequate water supplies for people to drink - much less use for the disposal of their waste products.

I for one do not wish to get to the stage where some international organisation uses pictures of Australians in it's adverts seeking donations to help US get access to clean and fresh water supplies.

So here is the question Can we afford to have more people (regardless of their creed or colour or ethnic origin) in this country at all?

If the answer is YES but the numbers have to be really small then do we have the right to make pre-conditions about that intake based NOT on any racist views but simply on adequate distribution of resources that are available?

It is here that we start to consider questions about WHO we take, for what purpose, with what intent and under what conditions.

Whoops - almost missed this little extra piece of news!

"The Human Rights Commissioner has labelled the Federal Government's stance on African refugees as "un-Australian"."

"Commissioner Graham Innes says singling out a particular race goes against Australian values."

"I think it is troubling to single out one community or group as not settling and integrating well and it is not the Australian way to deal with refugees," he said.

"People shouldn't be treated differently on the basis of race or ethnic origin," Mr Innes said.

Does this mean that the Minister for Immigration would not pass the new citizenship test - were he to sit for it?

There is a wider question to answer, garpet 1, before you can sensibly address the question of how many, and from where.

And that is simply this: do you regard yourself as a citizen of Australia, or of the world?

It may sound like a trite question - maybe it is a trite question - but the outlook of the individual will ultimately determine their answer to this issue. It is not really a matter of "which argument will ultimately hold sway", but how many people care enough to look outside their own country, their own town or city, their own suburb or even their own family.

I know people who look down upon their neighbouring suburb, as somehow being unworthy of help or support. I know people who maintain a pointless rivalry between Cities or States within Australia. These folk are far more likely to batten down the hatches when they see "foreigners" arriving in their street.

But what saddens me most, I think, is the utterly parochial and singularly antipathetical attitude of those supposedly religious people, who turn out not to have a charitable bone in their bodies.

My own position, as an immigrant myself, is that there should be few significant barriers to people making their homes here. I think we should continue with the normal "economic" immigration processes, where particular talents are preferred at different times. And I think we should fully participate in welcoming our fair share of international refugees.

Pericles

One of the consequences of globalisation and diversified mass immigration has been an increasing awareness of how much Australia has become part of the global village. While some Australians are still dramatising fears about the security of our borders, many other Australians see themselves as cosmopolitan - they work and travel in the world actually or virtually, raising speculation on how much longer old borders between nations will have any further relevance.

Papastergiadis has suggested that the place of belonging can no longer be purely geographic (a sense of place) or historical (a sense of connection) because it is “cross-cut by a variety of global forces.” (Dialogues in the Diasporas: Essays and Conversations on Cultural Identity, Rivers Oram Press, London and New York, 1998, p. 1.)

The Jewish Diaspora began with the exile of Judaeans to Babylonia in 586 BC and despite the formation of modern Israel, continues unabated - as does the Greek, Italian, Chinese and Indian diasporas, just by way of examples.

At any one time some 5% of the Australian population are living abroad including my daughter and granddaughter. They are part of the Aussie Diaspora. Our immigration program has to take account of the loss of at least 50-60,000 people every year when it’s calculating the net migration target every year. The migration program recognises that business globalisation has resulted in a major flow of people who often do not intend to stay in Australia permanently.

Mass movements of people is not a recent phenomenon. People who get their knickers in a knot about a few thousand 'Africans' (a consciously coded term for some) have a very narrow view of the world.

We live on the dryest continent on earth.

We are in the worst drought in living memory.

We have too many of our own poor and dispossesed.

Aborigines live like dogs on missions.

Why do we need to bring more people here? Especially those whom are not going to integrate, are going to cause us to have more police, will probably never work and will breed like rabbits.

We should be working to help these people in thier own countries, its not sustainable to bring them here.

We need to have a national referendum on refugees and immigration, guaranteed it would stop overnight. The silent majority are fed up with the left and middle right hijacking this country to make themselves feel good about being progressive whites while selling the rest of us out.

In life we get to play the hand that was dealt to us, they live where they are and we live here. Why would we want them?

FRank...I tend to agree on most of that... good points well made.

Regarding the singling out of a race.. yep.. as I said.....My gut feeling is that because:

They are
-Black
-Highly visible
-In the news (Keysborough .. 700 Sudanese in a riot over a girl)
-Are very noticable when in a group.

They are a convenient 'target' for re-election prospects.

If the PM was serious about 'problem ethnics' of any description..and surely we all know who are the more problematic groups by now... they would have embarked on some serious RE-SETTLEMENT arrangements which specifically prevent 'ghettos'

The first prize for 'spin' has to goto the Sudanese bloke who said "We hang around together because we are friends...not a gang"

The very fact that they hang around in 'ethnic' groups... with 'ethnic' friends.. simply confirms the charge that they are as racist as anyone else. Limiting your 'friends' to those of your own ethnic group is the very heart of racism and the source of race related problems in community.

CONSLUSION.. until the Government (of any flavor) learns how to implement policies which specifically address this.. we are doomed to the ongoing cycle of these problems, the polarization of the community and the political capital being made out of them.

Right, Boaz. So when I see a members of a church hanging out together, I can dismiss them as a 'gang?'

Presumably their protestations that "we hang out together because we're friends" aren't to believed.

Good to know.

It's a bit cheeky to berate others for "spin", Boaz.

<<In the news (Keysborough .. 700 Sudanese in a riot over a girl)<<

OK, here's a question for you.

How many Sudanese took part in the riot?

Now, how many did you manage to "suggest" took part in that riot, by using the words that you did?

Do you see the difference?

Nowhere, in any of the reports of that incident, was it even remotely suggested that "700" people were involved in a riot. And - even though I wasn't there either - it would be reasonably safe to conclude from the evidence...

- one person arrested, a teenager from Sunshine
- one person injured, a twenty-year-old from Mulgrave
- "a number of implements allegedly used as weapons" were collected by police

... that the only unusual aspect of the incident was the colour of the particpant's skin.

And you talk about "spin", Boaz?

If more than a dozen out of those seven hundred were involved, I would be surprised. That would certainly be a more consistent reading of the incident, unless the other six hundred were simply whacking each other with wet lettuce leaves.

Which, of itself, hardly qualifies as a riot" either, does it?

Incidentally, where did the girl come in? Wasn't mentioned in any of the reports that I read...

More embellishment, Boaz?

More "spin"?

Why cant the Sudanese people be resettled in a peaceful African state why must they come to the West. It doesnt make sense to me. Dont they like people in other African states. Why the hell do they have to come half way across the world to be resettled in Australia.

This kind of tribal warfare is always raging somewhere on the planet the only difference is that when I was growing up there was no TV or satellite television and we didnt feel compelled to race all over the world to try and stop it.

I said we'd solved nothing in Timor and we'd be back there and I was right.
The only reason things have settled in Bosnia is that a lot of the Ethnic cleansing was achieved before the United Nations finally intervened. If the numbers were to build up again on both sides then it would start all over again. Maybe this time the Croats would send in terrorist bombers against the Serbs, but one way or another the tribal warfare would break out again. Dont think the trial of Milosovich would stop it. Somalia and Rwanda the same.
One day maybe we'll learn when we've sent force after force to end these massacres and they still break out again and again that we need to have a rethink about how to really stop it if thats even possible.

War and ethnic cleansing isnt physcological its biological.

Pericles: "There seems to be a strong link between being a (professed) Christian, and being singularly uncharitable to fellow human beings.

Am I the only one to notice this?"

No. Certainly, the most vociferous 'Christians' who post in this forum seem to have some of the most misanthropic attitudes that I've encountered.

I've just spent a few days holidaying on the far north coast of NSW, where the community ethos seems to be the exact opposite of the sad and bitter xenophobia expressed by some in this forum. I was struck by how happy, diverse and friendly people are in that part of the country.

As my kids joined in with a veritable junior United Nations playing in the park across from the pub, I noticed a young coffee-coloured girl wearing a plain white t-shirt, upon which was emblazoned "MEAN PEOPLE SUCK".

Just about says it all, really. Why do so many "mean people" post on OLO, and why are so many of them 'Christians'?

Irrespective of what the UN or 'global villiage' advocates say, the overwhelming responsibility of any Government should be for the well being of its citizens and to act to promote a cohesive society.

Therefore I agree that cultural incompatibility is reasonable grounds to refuse visas to certain groups of people. Those that are trying to claim it is racist are simply dog whistling and cannot sustain any credible argument against it.

There are other groups the incompatibility criteria should apply to also. For example the Croats and Serbs, the Sunni and Shia Iraqis. These groups hold their long held cultural hatreds above our laws and standards. The Lebanese Muslims have little or no respect for us or our laws or anyone else and further importation should stop. If there are identifiable groups that continually flaunt our laws by carrying out cockfighting ,FGM and arranged marriages, they should also be refused visas.

Rather than try to attack the Minister for racism, he should be asked why only reduce the intake from 70% to 30%. Why not stop the intake entirely from those countries that have shown incompatibliity? Maybe the 30% intake will be made up by those that have higher integration assesment.

It is noticeable that the Opposition has not bought into the debate and this is because the major parties have a pact not to debate immigration issues. This is abhorrent as these matters are very important and should be discussed openly.

Pauline Hanson has long critised the Government for allowing African refugees in without health screening and given the high incidence of exotic diseases in most African countries it is fair criticism. Before those that dismiss what Pauline has to say, it should be noted that Morris Lemma told the NSW Parliament that only 37% of the 4000 refugees coming into NSW in 2005 had been health screened.

Will the Minister garruntee that all immigrants/refugees will be subject to integration assesment and all will be health screened?

Snotty: "History will not be kind, selfish pricks"

Indeed - just look at what the history books say about the old, unlamented 'white Australia policy'. Snotty may be surprised to know that the little country town in which I live is now home to quite a few Sudanese refugees. No gangs, no violence, no disease, no crime, no unemployment. Sure, they tend to stick to themselves because their English isn't very good yet, but they work hard and spend most of their earnings locally. In time, I have little doubt that they'll integrate just as well as all the other people who live around here who are descended from immigrants.

How many Sudanese refugees have you racists actually met, I wonder? Give me a Sudanese family next door anyday, over a bunch of beer-swilling racist yobbos.

C J Morgans a bong smoking hippy… hardly a revelation! Hum us a few bars of “Kumbaya” will you CJ it would be totally “Groovy Man”

Sharkfin asks: "Why the hell do they [Sudanese] have to come half way across the world to be resettled in Australia[?]"

Why not also ask: Why the hell do the English have to come half way across the world to be resettled in Australia? Does skin colour makes a difference to one's capacity or right to resettle?

I suppose there's no point in asking Sharkfin to give us some evidence for his sweeping theory that "War and ethnic cleansing isnt physcological its biological"? Judging from his grammar and spelling, he ought to be able to list a full bibliography of fantasy comics.

Sharkfin could perhaps defer to SCOTTY whose most intelligent contribution to the race debate is: "Bringing sub saharan blacks here who have the mental fortitude of a deck chair is crazy. Wont integrate are violent and have some pretty funny ways of dealing with thier women and tend to congregate in groups which tend to look a lot like gangs."

Who's been shaking the trees today?

"Australia is a Multi Culture ,multi Ethnic country." Well it may be now but when I was born into it and grew up in it ,it was a Christian country with strong laws that covered ALL . It was a good, peaceful nation where the streets were safe, no gangs allowed and newcomers came, worked, raised families, went to church if they wished, stayed home if they wanted.
Now we have this never ending argument of "ethnic' 'racism' 'Muslim trouble makers' . Our streets are full of menace and there is no peace anymore.
Because we have ceased to be Australian, we have become Multi culture with all the horrors that implies.And our land has become like the Third world .

mickijo, you've given me a hellova a scare: "Our streets are full of menace and there is no peace anymore...Because we have ceased to be Australian, we have become Multi culture with all the horrors that implies.And our land has become like the Third world ."

Damn! I was going to go out again tonight like I did last weekend. When I last went out we were still Australia. What's happened in the space of a week? Should I cancel my tickets to the flix and start building my fortress and arsenal?

It didn't take long did it?

Andrews makes his 'Simon says' divisive and racist decision, and his pet poodles all starting yapping away doing their usual tricks.

I was profoundly ashamed to see a mother and two children of African descent (I don't think Sudanese!), get abused in a shopping centre yesterday. She was shopping. SHOPPING. Both children were clearly terrified.

If Rudd continues this kind of virulent politic racism, the man and his government can rot in hell, along with those of you belonging to the Howard Governments nasty little lynch mob.

(I was happy to pull out the jugular vein of the piece of filth that shot his grubby little mouth off.)

mickijo - I am fascinated to learn that you think you were born into a mono cultural Christian society that was essentially peaceful.

When there were no white people on this island continent it was definitely not Christian as to whether it was mono cultural - you can take that up with people who know more about indigenous people than I do - but I doubt it!

Thus, you could NOT have been born before the so called 'discovery' of Australia that others have called an invasion.

The group of people who invaded or discovered Australia - (take your pick) not to mention all of those who followed, contained people who were from countries other than England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. (and I can assure you that THEY are not mono cultural)

Thus you could NOT have been born into anything else other than a multi national, multi ethnic world where I can assure you not everyone believed in Christianity - well not on this continent anyway!

As for peaceful - the indigenous people here warred among each other constantly and when others came there was no love lost between the old and the new or among the new arrivals either.

Wake up and smell the roses - there have been migrations of peoples around the world for as long as there have been people it has always been a way of voiding incest and the production of genetic defects!

The "utopia" you say you were born into has never existed anywhere except perhaps in the recesses of your mind.

EasyTimes: "C J Morgans a bong smoking hippy… hardly a revelation! Hum us a few bars of “Kumbaya” will you CJ it would be totally 'Groovy Man' "

Er, you missed by about 30 years, old chap. Now that you mention it, however, I'd also prefer a household of "bong smoking hippies" living next door than a bunch of hateful xenophobes such as you appear to be.

mickijo: " 'Australia is a Multi Culture ,multi Ethnic country. Well it may be now but when I was born into it and grew up in it ,it was a Christian country with strong laws that covered ALL . It was a good, peaceful nation where the streets were safe, no gangs allowed and newcomers came, worked, raised families, went to church if they wished, stayed home if they wanted"

I don't know where you grew up, mickijo, but half a century ago when I was born it doesn't sound like the same place. For a start, my parents were certainly not Christians, and I went to school in suburban Sydney with kids whose parents had been born in all sorts of exotic and far off sounding places. As I got older there were gangs of mods and rockers, surfies and rockers, bodgies and widgies, sharpies and skinheads, bogans and surfies etc etc etc. The laws were much the same as they are now, and they applied to everybody, as they do now.

ET and mickijo should perhaps phone home, because maybe somebody from the planet whence they come is missing them. It's certainly not Earth.

CJ Morgan: I would rather have a couple of stereotypical aussies living next door to me then motley crew of refugee’s!

While protagonists of skid row like CJ Morgan and his dazed band of misfits seem to unbelievably think that having more refugee’s is a great idea I tend towards a more sensible option, which is help the people in their home countries instead of transporting them and their problems to our shores.

Not only that but cracking down on countries like China who go into Africa with a no questions asked attitude when pouring in investment money. (China is at the centre of the problem in the Darfur) The corrupt regimes on the horn of Africa much prefer to deal with China because they don’t make silly demands like those horrible westerners such as “you must spend your oil royalties on your poor and not buy guns with it” China just gives them the money and says if you want to fight one another and cause ethnic conflict you can because we don’t care!

This is the same sort of attitude the lefties have when bring refugees to our shores “if you don’t want to integrate or learn English and you only want to make a token effort at being Australian that’s ok because we don’t care"

As a great man once said "We will decide who comes to this country and under what circumstances they come"

When he said that Easytimes, he wasn't actually referring to you, thank goodness.

How about a little test? Who here knows a refugee from Sudan personally?

I'll start: I do, and I seriously do not know what all the fuss is about. She speaks 4 languages, and is just about to graduate from a major university in Science. And I for one am glad that our country could give her that opportunity. She doesn't fit whatever stereotype people seem to have in their heads about what it means to be African, but then people rarely do on an individual level.

Anyone else know an African refugee personally?

Aha Bugsy! Your Sudanese friend has obviously taken an Australian uni position that belonged to an Aussie kid.

Four languages? Why, she could have gone anywhere else but here - clearly a country shopper!

Seriously, over the past couple of years I've known a couple of dozen Sudanese refugees and they've been quite a mixed bunch. All of them are at least bilingual, some have gone on to win uni scholarships, but most have cheerfully been providing labour in jobs that Aussies don't want - like in abbatoirs, fruit and vegetable picking etc.

As I said before, I've seen no evidence of the criminal or antisocial behaviour that the dog-whistlers would have us believe is common among African immigrants. But I don't suppose we should let truth and actual experience get in the way of a good racist stereotype.

"As a great man once said "We will decide who comes to this country and under what circumstances they come"
Posted by EasyTimes, Saturday, 6 October 2007 10:04:01 PM

No genuinely 'great' man would ever need to say something like this.

Well we should have known that CJ would be part of the noisey minority in TAMWORTH. Probably a teacher giving his leftist slant to our kids. Most probably an english teacher at one of the high schools.

What part of we dont want them in our town/country dont you ferals understand?

CJ, Ginx and Pericles represent the self loathing whites of our society whos duty they feel is to make all of us heathen whiteys to be held accountable for our sins against the dark races so as to make them feel more empowered and better abled to tut tut the evil whites, also to give themselves a big pat on the back and have those warm fuzzy spine tingling feelings at dinner parties over a nice drop of Pinot or a coffee after thier latest witty retort on refugees or what have you.

It makes them feel special and as a small outlet they come to OLO to share it with you. Well CLAP CLAP CLAP, Your a bunch of Latte sipping tamperers.

I find you all offensive because your trying to drag down the standard of living for those who can least afford it.

Selfish Pricks.

Well I guess Andrews at least has your vote, Scotty. Only...he's not representing you. He's representing a seat with a large migrant population, which owes it existence to the fact that we rejected the White Australia policy decades ago, despite the sad fact that it the beliefs behind it clearly linger on in various dark corners.

Amusing that the most damning criticism that you can make of those that reject socially regressive attitudes such as your own is that they sip lattes.

My God!! How am I supposed to respond to posts like yours..

What a pathetic character you are GROTTY.

Hey SCOTTY I love your colourful (oops!) language.

First you had "sub saharan blacks [with] the mental fortitude of a deck chair". A Titanic image or a Tampa?

Then you gave us "heathen whiteys" and "dark races" who "tut tut the evil whites". Let there be light Brother!

But I thought your liquid imagery was a bit dry. You had the whites (not sure whether you meant the heathens or the evils) giving themselves " warm fuzzy spine tingling feelings at dinner parties over a nice drop of Pinot or a coffee." Would that be with milk - or black coffee, SCOTTY?

I loved your delicious pun about "a bunch of Latte sipping tamperers" - I'm sure you meant to write Tampa-ers.

Skitch 'em SCOTTY, turn the hoses on them. I'm sure they're all closet reds - or liberal wets.

Now how about a Scotch - more to your taste, eh? I hear White Heather's a nice drop, much better than Johnny Walker Black Label.

Wiz and Gin,
Im going to laugh my arse off when your facing another four years of Howard and Costello.

This election is going to be won on the backs of what sought of person we allow to come to this Great Country. Face it the leftist agenda is on the nose whiteys starting to wake up to you traitors.

Im sure at the next war you will all be rounded up as traitors of the country and put into detention. Think it wont happen think again, you sell your own kind out for what, a warm feeling and green vouchers.

Do you think the blacks will thank you for allowing them here ?

They dont give a stuff, theyll turn Australia into a ghetto just like theyve done everywhere else.

Give me one example of where Africans have gone enmasse and there have been no problems for decades afterwards?

Bring Chinese Indians Vietnamese in small volumes no problems but we need people with low socio economic mentality like a hole in our head.

Ginx is a 22year old starry eyed sociology student, no boyfriend and a pet cat good thing she has the internet or she'd have topped herself by now. Getting close by now? Wiz your a boy in a mans world go home to your boyfriend.

I can tell from the anger in your posts, Scotty, that you have had a hard life.

But help is, as always, at hand. I found these "life tips" for you:

- When decanting wine from the box, tilt the paper cup and pour slowly so as not to bruise the wine.
- If drinking directly from the bottle, hold it with only one hand.
- When entertaining in your home, don't allow the dog to eat at the table, no matter how good his manners.
- While ears need to be cleaned regularly, this should be done in private, using ones OWN ute keys.
- Even if you live alone, deodorant isn't a waste of money.
- But even extensive use of deodorant can only delay bathing by a few weeks.
- Dirt and grease under the fingernails is a no-no, it alters the taste of finger foods and if you are a woman it can draw attention away from your jewelry.
- Always offer to bait your date's hook - especially on the first date.
- Let your date know you're interested: "I've been wanting to go out with you ever since I read about you on the dunny door"
- At the movies, refrain from yelling abuse at characters on the screen. Tests have proven they can't hear you.
- At a wedding, kissing the bride for more than five seconds may cause a drop in your popularity. Excessive use of the tongue is also considered out of place. And a tracksuit with a cummerbund and a clean football jumper can create a tacky appearance. Say "yes" to socks and shoes for the occasion.
- When driving, dim your headlights for approaching vehicles, even if your gun's loaded and the possum's in your sights.
- When entering a roundabout, the vehicle with the largest bull bar doesn't always have the right of way.
- When sending your wife down the road with a petrol can, it's impolite to ask her to bring back beer too.

You see, we do care.

I have to agree with scotty you can hardly say Africans have a good track record.

The problem you see with the left is that they are not patriotic like most Australian. They are either not born in Australia or care little for the society as a whole and would be more then happy to see society fragmented into groups.

I have posted this video before but some may not have seen it. It goes to show how our token effort at taking in refugee’s will do little to stem the problems in the third world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ

If it weren't for the fact that he's posting the same sort of twaddle since January, I'd assume SCOTTY was pure troll material.
The best you can say is that at least it's good for a laugh. The moment the personal insults come out in any debate you know that opposition has lost its case.

Snotty: "Well we should have known that CJ would be part of the noisey minority in TAMWORTH. Probably a teacher giving his leftist slant to our kids. Most probably an english teacher at one of the high schools."

Guess again, old chap. Wrong on all counts.

Snotty: "Im going to laugh my arse off when your facing another four years of Howard and Costello."

Please be assured that I shall flog you with that quotation in the new year, if indeed you are still around.

My first impulse was to go quite hard on poor young Snotty, but after reading subsequent responses I'm feeling somewhat more conciliatory. Indeed, I think that between them, Pericles, Ginx, wiz, FrankGol and Bugsy have him pretty well covered :)

The African refugee intake story is an interesting one.
I think no-one has a problem with reducing the intake from a particular part of the world based on need relative to other parts but the reasons given by Minister Andrews are not becoming of someone in his position and appear to be based on isolated reports, and going by a family members experience in social welfare, a lack of awareness and concern in dealing with the needs of refugees from different cultures. Of course some African refugees are poorly-educated, and they find it difficult to gain acceptance and trust from the rest of the community in many cases, but if there are problems then they can be addressed by dealing with them on a case by case basis.
Scotty is the personification of the kind of dimwitted attitudes we left behind some 50 years ago, and EasyTimes, what evidence do you have? I believe the Sudanese have been found to be underrepresented in crime statistics throughout Australia, it seems even the constituents of Tamworth are "changing tune" on Sudanese Immigration

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2007/s2050829.htm

It has been good to see that even Minister Andrews Assistant Minister has been somewhat critical of the Andrews' statement, and other politicians also (including the Qld premier) have damned his statement, saying it is racist.

Yes, peachy's quite correct. Tnis is obviously nothing more than an obvious dog-whistle from an increasingly desperate regime in its last days.

I expect that we'll hear more of this crap in the next few weeks. Remember the Tampa and the "children overboard"? Fortunately, I think that the majority of the electorate has finally woken up to Howard's pathological mendacity.

None of you have said yeh Id be keen for my children to breed with them and yeh Id be keen to live beside them.

Ah the latte set, its all good when it doesnt have to be near you, except CJ who has them close by, your the biggest bunch of hypocrits of all, your socialist type standing barricades you from the crap of society you dont have to get your hands dirty with the law enforcement and social security of these people you advocate bringing here. You come from crap and profess the same. Half baked pommy unionists and social engineers.

CJ, I will be helping you fley yourself with your keyboard after this win at the next election. Then it will be a good thing that you keep to ranting your crap to your students in TAMWORTH.

Selfish Pricks!

So how many Sudanese refugees have you actually met, Spotty?

Incidentally, Tamworth suffers badly enough under its burden of Country and Western music than to have to put up with the likes of me. I believe there was some redneck hysteria about Africans there a while back, but I hear that's subsided somewhat lately.

I'm not a teacher either - I'm a partner in a small business, where I have several regular, polite and valuable customers who were Sudanese refugees before coming here.

What personal experience do you have of African refugees, Scrotty?

On the subject of Tamworth,

For those of you who might be interested in getting a sense of how they feel about the Sudanese now you might want to have a read through this:

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2007/s2050829.htm

As to whether I would "allow my children to breed with them". If, in the fullness of time my offspring came to me and said "Dad, I've met a wonderful man/woman and he/she is from Sudan." So long as they treat my child right then I have no objection. I don't have any petty "racial purity" hangups, instead I take people as they come.

This really is a laugh! You are all carrying on like they had cut the number of refugee’s so that more white Europeans could get into Australia! Don’t worry lefties you should all read the article again! Exactly the same number of refugee’s will be coming here just from different parts of the world.

Don’t worry none of those horrible white Europeans pass as refugees so no need to get your claws out.

An alternate look at the challenge the Sudanese people bring.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/our_sudanese_question/

These people need help but lets help them in their own country where they feel at home and it will not only benefit the individual but their entire community!

Yes, Andrew Bolt's blogs are certainly a challenge ET. The question is, if we sent them all back would he stop them or commenting altogether? It might just make it all worth it.....

What did I say last night? Check this out:

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22547589-952,00.html

Nah we need Bolty to remind us that die-hard far-right conservatives are pretty much living on a different planet...some of the user comments he gets are enough to make you wonder just what sort of rocks these people have been living under for the last 50 years.

Oh and SCOTTY, give me a beer over a latte anyday, and my son is half-Latino, with a dash of native South-American blood. Seeing as enough generations back we're all African anyway, why would I care the least bit if my grandkids had a mother who more recently emigrated from the birthplace of humanity?

EasyTimes,

Okay let's get this straight. When the decision was originally taken no one complained. Because the decision was reached in consultation with the UN and targeted areas such as the Middle East and Asia. This was the reason that Andrews had been trumpeting right up until last week.

What has gotten everyones nose out of joint is Kevin Andrews suddenly deciding that the above wasn't the reason at all, instead it was "concern about Sudanese integration". He then proceeded to blast a community based on annecdotal evidence. When the police data showed that he was incorrect he just kept going, citing "confidential information". It's blatant dog whistling.

Birth place of humanity. Give me a friggin break.

The only beer you freaks would drink would be expensive and imported
burjoise toffy nosed consumers.

And you can try and tell us oh no Im not racist my daughter can bring home the tallest blackest African we can import and I wouldnt care. HYPOCRITS the lot of you.

The pedestal is going to break with the weight of CJ and Co clambering to climb aloft.

None of you except CJ will ever have to have anything to do with Africans, it will be some other poorer Australian that has to deal with thier low hygiene, violent attitude, gang violence etc.

But thats OK isnt it ya selfish pricks, you'll bring em here and fight tooth and nail to and then walk away to your $1m house in the suburbs and leave it to some other prick to deal with.

Clap Clap Clap Very Clever..

How would you feel if we brought them here and it was your daughter who was raped by a Sudanese refugee?
Dont know about you but I'd be rightfully angry..
But thats OK wont be in your suburb will it Wiz.

Give me one example of Africans not causing serious problems wherever they go. And out CJ's way they've already raped people so dont go thier.

I agree in CJ's Town of Tamworth it already has a serious problem with Country and Western music, why would we want to burden them further with refugees.

The thing is Scotty, you're talking out of your rear. Everything you're using to justify your argument is purely hypothetical.

Firstly:

1) You've no idea what kind of houses these people live in. Your claim that they'll go home to their multi million dollar houses is not only irrelevant, but purely hypothetical.

2) Where are the crime stats showing the Sudanese are worse offenders? Go look on the Herald Sun website and read Andrew Bolt's latest offering - even Bolt, a vehement defender of the Right, has come out saying the figures Andrews are using aren't justified.

3) You've yet to tell us anything of your own experiences with refugees. I'm inclined to believe you haven't got any, you'd rather just blame Australian problems on migrants. I guess that's just easier.

I must say, your 'selfish pricks' argument isn't exactly a well constructed argument, phrased with wit and subtlety. Plus, I can just as easily apply it to nutjob xenophobes like yourself, who would deny entry to refugees fleeing atrocities, based on half baked racist theories that they can't provide any supporting material for, whatsoever.

Ah, what the hell, let's humour you a little more SCOTTY...alright, in my street, I reckon the rough ethnic breakdown would be...

30% Anglo-Celtic
40% Greek or Italian
25% Chinese/SE-Asian
5% Other (Indian, African etc.)

The local bus I sometimes catch frequently has at least 2 or 3 recent African immigrants on it. They're about the friendliest folks you could hope to meet.

And the 6-pack in the fridge at the moment is Tooheys New, bought for a whopping $16.

Woddoicare!!

I'm 22 again!

GROTT; you're an orifice and a jungleman! And sooooo eloquent wif' it.

A man who is to 'laugh his arse off' clearly acknowledges that he knows where his head is...

(Pericles, your 'life tips' had me in fits of laughter!)

There must be an election in the wind. All the usual lefty "intellectuals" are howling their hatred of the Federal government, you all sound quite demented with your rage. In such hands the Australian nation will be turned into a trash heap in a very short while.
Look at the mess the UK is in, Europe is struggling in a third world
diaspora and so will this country be.Thanks to you ignorant luvvies.

As usual Ginx has nothing to add.

Another day another man hater wrapped up in the guise of an intellectual LA DEE DA leftist pinko what can we protest against this week. Go back to sociology class, nutter.

Wiz of Vaucluse would have us believe immigrants are noble savages who integrate and live amongst us in harmony and have cultural learnings important to all.

What a joke, you dont live anywhere near bog poor recent immigrants, you guys live in a fools paradise of latte sipping yuppies.

You hate what I stand for because you know full well that most Australians are like me.

The Kev's and the Davo's of the world will rise.

We will call it Day of the Bogan !

Heh...being a Mexican, I had to look up Vaucluse, didn't sound much like a bogan term. Actually Scotty, you're obviously a fake...*real* bogans spell it "lah tay".

And again Scotty - well done on utterly failing to actually present information to back your case.
More stupid rhetoric without any supporting material, wrapped up with some wild accusations (again, nothing to support them) as well as the odd cliche.
Oh wait, I forgot. You also managed to call on the spirit of 'bogan Australia' to rally behind you. Congrats on that one.

I really don't see what you're hoping to a... wait a minute... have you considered running for Pauline's United Australia party?
I'm sure they'd welcome someone with such a high calibre of debating skill...

I think scotty is an excellent example of another reason why refugee’s are bad for the community. It creates division in a previously united community. Sure many people here critise him but many others also sympathise with him.

I hear that little children are scared of women who dress in the full burker because they look like monsters or ghosts. Others are scared of the Africans because they don’t like black people wandering around at night in large groups.

Should these peoples views who already live here contribute, and are more likely then not part of the backbone of Australia just big ignored? These are the people who made this country such a great place to live.

I think it is disappointing but hardly surprising that people of the left are so mindlessly for shipping in tens of thousands of refugee’s a year into Australia and completely ignore the feeling of there fellow country men! It only goes to show their contempt for their fellow Australian!

Pakkies in England,

Morrocans and blacks in France

Muslims in western Sydney

Muslims throughout Europe

Muslims in the middle east

Western societies are better off not bringing them because of the huge financial cost of securing, social security and appeasing leftist toss bags like you.

Emerging trends of Sudanese problems here. We've stopped taking them because why? Must be a reason, even Andrews cant just come out for no reason and say NO more blacks that would be racist and we cant have that now.

Must be a problem !

We can have the pick of the refugees, if these ones dont want to toe the line then bugger em off and get some who will.

I meen dont come the raw prawn, cant they fathom how friggin lucky they are that we will take them? If they dont realise that, then they are way to stupid to be allowed to co-exist within cooey of civilised folk even me.

So before you bunch of clowns climb up on your high horses and take aim at me, you should all insist on billeting a family of animist Sudanese where dad rules the roost AFRICAN style in your homes for not less than 6 months. I bet your tune would change then.

Getting to see the time honoured bashings of ones wives and children AFRICAN style might open your eyes to the primitives.

Ive been to the Central African Republique, thats why Im not keen on seeing that happening here no matter how small a population we get of them.

You dont have a clue. Selfish Pricks!

I think our Snotty is best regarded as a racist, bogan troll who is beyond redemption. His posts are caricatures of the hateful drivel that his more intelligent cohorts post in this forum, and are simply designed to provoke outrage from more reasonable, coherent and rational people - of whom Spotty is clearly very envious.

Engaging with such trolls is simply a waste of energy, and actually encourages them. I don't intend to provide any more oxygen to this troll, and I suggest that if others adopt a similar approach he'll eventually tire of spitting bile at himself and go back to Stormfront or wherever he came from.

Why do those of a conservative nature generally see the need to handle the issue of refugees and immigrants according to how well they can relate culturally to them?

All human beings are different, why do conservatives generally want to maintain the homogenity of a society?

Immigrants from as many different sources as possible are desirable. Yes, they must conform to our laws but the diversity they bring us is in large part what gives Australia such a rich tapestry of ideas to draw from. Often these ideas are responsible for maintaining Australia's success in buisness and the like, through emulating ideas that have originated in cultures vastly different than our own. One only needs to look at the way Japanese buisnesses manage purchasing and procurement and how this has been emulated by many Australian companies.

What a boring and uncompetitive country Australia wiould be if we were all white, middle class and of European ethnicicty. It is our uniqueness from each other that is the most remarkable thing about human beings and this should be celebrated. Who cares what it means to be Australian and how this should dictate where refugees come from. I have had friends who were refugees, so if I can make friends with people of other cultures surely you can too.

Hey SCOTTY

Ad nauseum, you've called everyone with whom you disagree, 'selfish pricks'. Is there something you want to tell us about your personal life that might help you?

D.Funkt, you ask "why do conservatives generally want to maintain the homogenity of a society"...but that's obvious, the whole point of conservatism is to maintain the status quo, and if that means society is currently relatively homogeneous, that's how they want it kept. Conservatism never holds out long though, as reality tends to move ahead regardless of its protestations. Virtually every major issue that conservatives have protested against over the last few hundred years are now essentially uncontroversial. No doubt in 100 years time the idea of objecting to immigrants on the basis of their skin colour will seem just as silly as the idea of objecting to them on the basis of their sex or favourite colour would be today.

Oh No Im gutted, CJ called me a troll and wont feed me oxygen.

This is an online opinion CJ I merely state my opinion and attack your dangerous beliefs. You leftists dont own OLO YET.

If one person catches on to what idiotic and dangerous beliefs the left have of what our country should be, well all and good then.

You bloody yuppies think you can get me to go away? Think again

The leftists are trying to legislate the average Aussie and our way of life out of existence. Im offended and so are a lot of other people.

They are trying to come to terms with thier white guilt and they want the rest of us to pay the price.

It wont be thier kids who have to fight the black gangs like The African Kings in Perth. Thier kids are nicely tucked away in private schools.

Its the average smoking, drinking loves a punt and a day at the footy type folks who will suffer through immigration of third world diaspora.

Your leftist views are selfish in the extreme, redemption of your guilt of being white is selfish if the rest of us have our standards of living lowered and higher crime rates against our person.

If I offend anyone then tough.
If I cant spell or structure my sentences to academic level then tough titties latte sippers.

And no Im not a Nazi of any kind and I dont like what stormfront is about so get stuffed.

Scotty, I'm curious - can you give me an example of a piece of legislation introduced by a "lefty" that has diminished your ability to live "the Australian way of life"?
In fact, it's hard to think of a single piece of legislation introduced successfully by a "lefty" in the last 15 years at all, given that despite the nominal progressive leanings of the ALP, in recent years they have been barely less conservative than the Coalition, at both State and Federal levels.
OTOH, I'm sure a lot of Australians see WorkChoices as a piece a legislation that diminishes the "Australian way of life" - and that was introduced by about the most right-wing Government Australia has ever seen. And given that same government has been responsible for immigration for the last 11 years, in which time they have boosted the numbers of non-UK/non-NZ migrants from ~75000 in 1996 to nearly 90000 last year, I fail to see how you can blame "lefties" for the gradual dilution of Australia's ethnic homogeneity. Indeed, it's generally been "lefties" that have argued for that number to be lower, given the questionable ability of Australia's natural environment to support such a population increase.

SCOTTY

Your posts are pretty much spot on.
Do not upset yourself with the likes of CJ and others who have not seen first hand what you have.
Mind you some of us get our information simply by keeping oneself informed as to what is happening world wide.
Who was that PM years ago who spoke up about what would happen to Australia if we went down this labour road of distruction?
Can you recall?
We are taking more than any other country and we dont have enough water for ourselves.
CJ calls us racist as well SCOTTY and we are the only group as far as I am aware to hold a MOU with Muslim leaders.

Of course we dont really know who CJ or any of these posters are now do we?
Charming the ALP trying to stop the hanging of those low lifes that murdered eighty of our fellow Australians.

This lot probably support that too.
The reason why Scotty you get so many negative replies to your normal sensible Aussie posts is most times not not speaking with Aussies at all.
Your old School dinky die sensible Aussie.
Your not going to make them see until Australia is turned into a third world country mate.
Thanks for your posts Scotty- We appreciate them at least.
You tell it the way it is.
The way it should always be.
Thanks Scotty

Another policy statement from "People Against Live Exports, Humanity and Intensive Farming", I presume. I'm quite sure Scotty would be in good company in that prominent and influential organisation.

"Of course we dont really know who CJ or any of these posters are now do we?"

Er, I post here under my real name. Do you or 'Scotty'?

I post under my name not that it makes a difference.

Thanks PALE I have appreciated your support more than once now.

WIZ Im apt to blame the UN for trying to flood us with refugees and non european immigrants. The biggest lefty institute of them all. I think weve seen our last white bloke as head of the UN dont you.

And as for legislating real people as opposed to moon bats like your mob out of existence, everytime a real person deals with a government department or turns on the TV and we see justice Birdy releasing the latest paedophile back into society on humanitarian grounds we shake our heads.
Leftists dont like brickies or fisherman or graziers or any one remotely 'rough'. They like teachers, middle managers and the buearocraticly incompetment that will dream up more crap red tape and make things harder and harder to make a quid for the average bloke.

Guess what ? Who do you leftists think pays the bills?

Your buearocrat and academic jobs dont produce one ZAC.

So if you want to ask us politely if you can bring more refugees the answer is no!

CJ Morgan

I wouldn't waste too much time on the so-called 'People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming'. He and his acolyte SCOTTY love sheep much more than they love humans with black skins especially if they are audacious enough to rise to the position on UN chief. In their view, only whites have the necessary intelligence - and by their own words, they demonstrate that skin colour and intelligence have no correlation.

And how 1950s to read: "Leftists dont like brickies or fisherman or graziers or any one remotely 'rough'. They like teachers, middle managers and the buearocraticly [sic]incompetment [sic] that will dream up more crap red tape and make things harder and harder to make a quid for the average bloke."

And here I thought most of the ole-fashioned organic farmers would be lefties.

Oh wait, no, they must only deal in mung beans right?

SCOTTY - stop talking out of your bum and actually provide something to back up your view. I'm afraid this means more than just 'lefties are selfish pricks' since that doesn't actually get us anywhere... well, except to display the illuminating substance of your entire argument.
Given that you've yet to actually provide anything by way of a referenced example or statistic, I can only conclude you're the stupid xenophobe your posts resemble.
Provide some supporting material or accept the sad truth that you're an ass.

PALE - SCOTTY has yet to provide anything to back up his claims, except uninformed invective. The very fact that you, with the organisation's name on your banner, are so keen to side with such a dill does uncalculable harm to your organisation.
I believe quite strongly in defending against animal cruelty but I wouldn't touch PALE with a ten foot pole and I'll counsel others to go with other animal rights organisations instead.
This is a prime example of what's so fundamentally stupid about your posting policies, though we've been down this road before so I'll leave it at that.
Ironically, I dare say most of PALE's support base would come from the lefties that you and SCOTTY are keen to bash without any shred of supporting material. Nice way to network there PALE...

So SCOTTY you're admitting that Howard isn't man enough to stand up to the UN's demands that we accept ever more refugees?
Of course, even if he did, it would barely make a dint in the number of "non-white" migrants we have accepted in the last 11 years, given that less than 10% of all immigrants are accepted under the refugee problem. No matter which way you paint it, the Howard government has been responsible for more non-whites settling in Australia than any "lefty" organisation. The only serious party with a strong "reduce immigration" stance that I'm aware of is the Greens, and I'm sure they'd be happy to take your vote.

As for middle managers and bureaucrats, I don't think anyone feels the world needs ever more of them, no matter what side of the political fence you stand on. Teachers on the other hand ARE just as essential in growing Australia's wealth as farmers, fishermen or tradies. The statistical correlation between education levels and economic prosperity, all across the globe, is about as strong as you could hope for.

GROTTY and PALE; what a surprise!

______________________________

Hasn't something obvious struck you both yet?

Your reference GROTT to the 'latte' set, 'kids in private schools'.
Your reference PILE to 'old school dinky ...er,..die sensible Aussie'= GROTTY.

So; (sorry Frank!)-the 'Left' have some sort of perceived class and the 'Right' are 'dinky di Old School' aka: GROTTY!

Hmm? The L and R have some fairly meaty stoushes here. Yet the R (as clearly known on OLO); are missing in their support of you on this thread. Why is that?

Could it have something to do with the fact that people like you 'two?' are an embarrassment to them? That the R are NOT GROTTY clones, but have standards and views of their own?

I oppose their views. (Yours I cannot take seriously GROTPILE). BUT; I do NOT categorize those of the more Conservative stance as ALL 'dinky di' and DEFINITELY see them with their own set of standards and values.

It is as clear as a bell that they have a bloody site more class than you give them credit for.

Which is why they are not going to support a barely literate Neanderthal.

Have a nice day.

SCOTTY
Dont let it bother you mate. oh and just for the record we work with both muslim Leaders and aboriginal people not just animals.
This may come as a shock to you all but unless you work with people and leaders you can never help Animals.
Not that any of the posters SCOTTY have ever bothered to show one once of concern for Animals.
This nonesense about some saying - eh pale I support animals but would never support pale is a cheap shot.
Yes SCOTTY I thought you would be posting in your real name because your a REAL person.
Thats something some people have great trouble with.
Note SCOTTY and PALE atre the only posters honest enough to use the real IDS.
I think that pretty much sums it up.
Any little coward can have a cheap shot at those who are brave enough to put their name on their posts.
Thats ok SCOTTY we will just keeping telling it the way it is- The truth.
I have also seen some of the things you are talking about.
A little Secret
My family has been involved with assisting migrants for years.
Many migrants dont want Australia to be turned into third world standards that they escaped.
I dont know how many times they! advised us! not to bring too many.
Why? Because they know how much trouble it brings.
BTW I am sure our clever journo SCOTTY has the answer to Australia`s water problem??
Boy how dumb
Like I said save your energy SCOTTY that wouldnt know a cow from a stear- speaking of bums!
Its good to know there are still some sensible no bull true blue Aussies out there SCOTTY- Thanks!

It must have been tough growing up with a name like "People Against Live Exports and Intensive Farming".

I bet the other kids teased you in the playground :)

It ain't a cheap shot if it's the truth PALE.

See, now having a go at the Sudanese without any statistics to back up a claim. That's a cheap shot.

Siding with the village idiot who spouts nothing but hateful garbage - that's a cheap shot.

TRTL – I think all the evidence you need can be seen in Sudan. The problems of the Sudan has a lot to do with the fact that there are too many people with a Sudanese mentality their or in other words the problems are intrinsic. Sure we are all born equally but the culture you grow up in has a huge effect on your attitude out look on life.

How many studies have you heard that people exposed to violence at a young age or at any for that matter are more prone to commit violent acts themselves in the future?

Just for the record –

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22567477-5006785,00.html

You can take the man out of Sudan but you cant take the Sudan out of the Man.

Hey EasyTimes

If, as you say, "we are all born equally but the culture you grow up in has a huge effect on your attitude out look on life", how come there are so many bitter arguments between Australians (even as seen with those who contribute to OLO)?

And if "The problems of the Sudan has a lot to do with the fact that there are too many people with a Sudanese mentality their or in other words the problems are intrinsic", would you have logically to agree that the problem of Australia is that there are too many people with an Australian mentality too?

Or is the problem that are you talking rot - and it's intrinsic?

Easytimes - Anna Bligh made the point far more qualitatively than that single article you seem to think backs up your view.

What part of 'the Sudanese are UNDER represented in the crime statistics' is so hard to cotton on to?

A policeman talking to Jon Faine on the ABC made the point that in the same city as the bashing you linked to, at the same time, police were called to two other bashings that were done by white people.

Neither made the news.

UNDER represented. It's quite a simple point.

Isolated articles have a way of being cherry picked to present a particular point of view. I could just as easily go with this:

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22564357-952,00.html

"His funeral came one day after Ajang Gor, 17, was struck over the head with a bottle in Melton, in Melbourne's west.
Mr Gor was attacked last night by three men who then stole his wallet and mobile phone which they used to send racist comments to his brother's phone.
"We believe that was caused by Mr Andrews' comments," Mr Kuot said."

Go with the big picture EasyTimes - that is the crime statistics. And the Sudanese are committing fewer crimes per capita than the average Aussie. Thus, the argument is nixed.

Neither SCOTTY, PALE or yourself have put forward anything but anecdotal opinions to back your case.

TRTL – I cant see any stats for the Sudan can you please give me a page number. (Maybe I’m blind Freddy)

If the Sudanese are less crime prone then the average aussie surley the Sudan must have a lower crime rate since they don’t have many of those criminally minded Australians living there. I can only conclude from those so called statistics that the Sudanese must have excellent institutions which have worked more effectively then those out dated and backward institutions we have here in Australia.

If we go by previous groups of refugee’s from similar back grounds (Muslims from the middle east and the Vietnamese) who are both overly represented in crime especially organized crime.

The problem with the Sudanese is that they are far too primitive and tribal to be able to fully adapt to a western life style.

Some may succeed but many will fail and I am sure if we keep up our high intake of these people we will see this in the not to distant future with booming crime wave from people of this background. “Watch this space”

The main reason I put that link in TRTL is because of the attack on a police officer. He was simply asking them to get off the road they were sitting in the middle of.

FrankGol – The arguments and disputes Australians have with each other are nothing compared to the problems in the Sudan. Even you should be able to grasp this.

Frank please elaborate about these so called problems in Austarlia.

"The problem with the Sudanese is that they are far too primitive and tribal to be able to fully adapt to a western life style. "

True of Homo Sapiens in general, I would think. We are all genetically rather poorly adapted to living in a modern industrial society - unsurprisingly, given our evolutionary history. Yet somehow we manage. As will the Sudanese, even if some take a little longer than others - evidenced by the fact that immigration from all parts of the world has been going on for over 50 years with no proof that our crime levels are any worse for it.

Here, Bligh hammers Andrews over the crime stats:

"Ms Bligh said she had been advised by police this morning that the highest proportion of Sudanese immigrants in Queensland was in Toowoomba.
"The police data shows us that those Sudanese refugees are actually under-represented in the crime statistics."

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/10/05/1191091327365.html

Here, Victorian Police Commissioner Christine Nixon adds more to that:

"When we look at the data, what we're actually seeing is that they're not, in a sense, represented more than the proportion of them in the population," Ms Nixon said on Wednesday"

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22535636-661,00.html

At the end of the day, if Andrews was right, he would have been able to provide some kind of statistics to back up his claims.
If you're going to make such inflammatory remarks, it's patently clear you should have some basis for them.

Andrews hasn't. There can be no justification for any minister singling out one group of people, without actual stats to back it up. For an immigration minister to do so, is truly disgraceful.

Easytimes, I understand what you're saying about difficulties integrating and cultural differences. In fact, I think more assistance for Sudanese to integrate into Australia would be a good thing.

But there's no justification here. There's nothing to back your argument up. The Sudanese aren't the boogeymen Andrews is making them out to be, that's quite clear.

I have yet to see anything from SCOTTY, PALE or yourself that can't just be chalked up to a negative perception.

Lets recap - in one corner, we have Kevin "most of what I said about Haneef was revealed to be bulldust" Andrews, representing the folk at Coalition "can we Tampa with this" HQ, versus the Police Commissioner, and police statistics.

It is clear however, people will believe what they wish to.
Which is precisely why Andrews is saying these things, and is precisely why people like SCOTTY buy into it.

EasyTimes another pandering pussy-footer, unwilling to substantiate any of his/her claims.
As ive stated before if there are problems in the community then it has more to do with a lack of awareness in dealing with the needs from people of another culture in helping them to integrate, and if there are issues they need to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

"The problem with the Sudanese is that they are far too primitive and tribal to be able to fully adapt to a western life style."

What a stupid claim, similar sentiments were shared by many people throughout history, such as Hitler and philosopher David Hume;

"Blacks are naturally inferior to whites...nor (is there among them) any individual eminent either in action or speculation... no arts, no science" your argument has come some 70 years too late buddy, social Darwinism was discredited a long time ago.

A study on Black Africans in British society, for example, found that;

"In educational achievement, African-origin blacks living in the U.K. have significantly outdistanced the dominant white population in a nation that, for hundreds of years, has treated African culture as inferior or nonexistent" furthermore " According to British census, over 26 percent of adult black Africans in the United Kingdom hold academic qualifications higher than "A" or college levels compared with only 13.4 percent for white adults in the U.K" (Cross T, 2001)

You've got a bloody big wall to climb mate, if the numbers of refugees need to be cut relative to the need of refugees of other countries then so be it, im sure none of us have a problem with that, but whats dismaying are Kevin Andrews generalisations of the community, which he is basing on only a few isolated claims.