Dear Ttbn,

«I don't know what you regard as 'other people's freedoms'»

People's freedom to live where they want on the face of this God-given earth.

«but rights and freedoms have nothing to do with immigration;»

Rights? I never mentioned that word here. Rights and freedoms are completely different things. Completely different.

"Immigration" requires disambiguation:
1) Receiving a legal status in a new country.
2) The physical act of transferring one's body from one country/region to another.

The former could perhaps be related to rights, but I was only speaking of the latter.

I agree that you are under no obligation whatsoever to grant a legal status to people you do not want.
Yet kicking people out (other than in self-defence) is a barbaric violent act which I cannot support.

It is perfectly fine to discourage people from coming by denying them all civil rights, yet it is not fine to pick up and evict people by force (other than when strictly required in self-defence).

Yuyutsu

It is ridiculous for people to believe that they have the right to “live where they want”.

You “agree that you are under no obligation whatsoever to grant a legal status to people you do not want.
Yet kicking people out (other than in self-defence) is a barbaric violent act which I cannot support”.

Just how do you think that anything other than kicking out people whom we are under no obligation to will discourage them? We cannot have people without any “legal status” staying here. No legal status: no legal rights. You seem to have a very unworldly idea of real life; and feel that people other than yourself should make your fairy tales work.

Who will determine the outcome of this election will not be Old Fart geriatrics from a bygone era, but young people, the Millennials and Gen-Y in the age group 18 to 45, and what concerns them will determine how the vote goes. Old rusted on folk who still believe government is about some kind of "class warfare", your typical dyed in wool Labor and Liberal supporters, give way to the progressive and aspirational who are not tied to any particular political party. This younger cohort of voters are increasingly turning towards independents and progressive parties over the old guard of philosophical class conscience driven mob.

Elections no longer make a difference. The same things will continue to happen no matter which of the self-serving incompetents gets control. Good times are just memories for a few old people, and things get worse. They won't get better because upcoming generations don't have the memories: they know little or nothing of history, and sneer at those who still do. Consequently, a really shite existence is thought to be normal.

Instead of bemoaning the fact that they can barely afford rents, and have no hope of ever owning a house, they should be trying to find out why. Why, when few people went to university, there was little technology, and people in very ordinary jobs in Australia could pay their mortgages, have a bit of fun, and virtually ignore politics because the politicians could be relied upon to do what was best for the country and its people.

Dear Ttbn,

«It is ridiculous for people to believe that they have the right to “live where they want”.»

Absolutely so, absolutely ridiculous - and therefore I was speaking of freedom, not of rights.

«Just how do you think that anything other than kicking out people whom we are under no obligation to will discourage them?»

Here are some possible ways (and I am not saying that all must actually be used, but that is within our discretion):

Give them no welfare, even if they starve to death.
Give them no medical care.
Give them no path to citizenship.
If they purchase property, do not register it.
If they attempt to complain to the police about anything, refuse their complaint.
Employers may refuse to give them fair wages, perhaps none at all;
merchants could charge them 10 times more, or take their money and not give them the goods;
someone could rob them clean;
banks could empty their accounts;
someone could place chains around their neck and throw them to work in a brothel - they have no legal recourse to justice.
If a truck runs over them, the driver doesn't need to stop, the ambulance need not arrive, the hospital need not admit them, they could be charged for the road-cleanup and if they die, their body can be chucked in the closest green bin while their families need not be informed.

etc., etc. I think that even a subset of the above will discourage the vast majority of immigrants, or in the least keep them to the outback.

«We cannot have people without any “legal status” staying here.»

As above, we can.

«You seem to have a very unworldly idea of real life; and feel that people other than yourself should make your fairy tales work.»

Since the world as it stands is devoid of ethics, it would indeed be unworldly if people were listening to me, so while I have no expectations, I must still perform my moral duty (including in the ballot box) by objecting to any wrong behaviour carried out, presumably in my name.

.

The United Sates, Canada, Australia and New Zealand have in common that they are all immigrant nations.

• 48.5% of Australians are 3rd- plus generation migrants
• 22.2% are 2nd generation migrants
• 29.3% are 1st generation migrants

Nearly 30% of our total population of 27.6 million, i.e., 8.3 million were born overseas.

Here are the 10 most important immigrant populations, by country of birth :

England ……………….960,000
India ………………….. 850,000
China …………………. 656,000
New Zealand ………….600,000
Philippines ……………..362,000
Vietnam …………………300,000
South Africa ………….... 215,000
Malaysia …………………181,000
Nepal ……………………..180,000
Italy ……………………….160,000

.