It's reported that the Brisbane council alone has paid over $135,000 for myriad 'Welcome to Country' organisers over the past two years. In total it seems that across Australia the 'Welcome to Country' business is worth in excess of $2 million per annum.

Payments are made by all sorts of groups from Government (Federal. State and Local) to sporting groups to concert organisers. It seems impossible to attend an AFL match these days without the game being delayed while some blow-in welcomes the crowd to the arena. And this isn't just senior games but all the way down to junior matches - my grandson's Grand Final required the obligatory Welcome.

Few listen to what is being said. Fewer care. But if you do listen you'll be told utter tripe such as claims that these Welcomes have been part of aboriginal culture for 250,000 years!!

But the truth is that they are a recent invention, created by Ernie Dingo back in 1976 because some Pacific Islander group wanted to be ceremonially welcomed. So he made up a dance and a sufficiently flowery speech and, hey presto, a tradition was born.

Of coarse, all this good is for those aboriginals, or ABBAriginals, who can get in on the act. Wear the skins of some dead animal, play a didgeridoo if you can, make some made-up speech and assertions, collect the payment at the office.

Perhaps we should consider it a form of reparations. Except, as usual, the people who need it, those in the outback shanties or the native women in domestic violence shelters, miss out. But the well connected urban carpet-baggers make a motza, and that's the main thing!!

It gets worse than that.
When a developer or farmer wants to make some changers the local indig
group has to do an inspection, for a fee of course.
It was this practice that got out of hand in WA where fees got to very
high amounts and the legislation was repealed.
Not sure what goes on here in NSW.
Can anyone enlighten us ?

My concern with wtc is that I am unaware of who wants it or voted for it, yet there seems to be obeyence to it in order to avoid consequences. Disgustingly authoritarian.

That is how easy it is. The indig of AU were here first ok. So when was the negotiation of change of ownership ever happen. Now the indig can talk English. So lets negotiate.
Until England unloaded it's cargo on AU shores with rats, rabbits and foxes and pigs everything was good.
England is the culprit, so what is their share of invasion. To this day AU still cannot stand alone we are subjects of England.
The loudest voices in AU today are x poms and 10 pound poms and they are largely far right politically minded no matter what. Hitler was extreme right. Lets see how that works out or not.

As long as thousands of Australians at, say, a football match, tolerate being preached at by a solitary person waffling about being welcome in their own country, the nonsense will continue.

Don't welcome me to my own country.

Trumpster,

Another racists beat up from you, $2 million you say, it cost Australia a conservative $40 million to host Charlie Windsor recently. I don't see you jumping up and down about that one, but then again Charlies not black is he.

Typical Paul. Don't try to defend the graft....just deflect.

BTW ... $40million? More fabrication from the group's fabulist-in-chief.

Would it be churlish to point out that royal tours have a longer history than these made up Welcome ceremonies?

Just imagine a majority of 50,000 or so spectators booing, slow clapping, or yelling "Get Off" to some arrogant, disrespectful twit dressed up as a stoneage aboriginal.

If you object to such claptrap, say so; don't wait for Big Brother to do it for you. It's Big Brother who has encouraged this non-traditional nonsense and the lies about it.

"Welcome to Country" as far as I know is not mandated.

We're told that:

" It's an acknowlegement in a
significant way to recognize and celebrate the
traditional ownership of country and our First Nations
people. It is appropriate for major public events especially
in locations where traditional owners have been formally
recognized".

As for corruption? Corruption can happen in any organization
including Indigenous corporations due to power imbalances,
complex funding structures, ethnic inequality, and so on.
Yet there are we're told "many Indigenous organizations
in urban, rural, and remote areas which are successfully
managed in a broad range of programs and services for their
communities".

The following is a list of suggestions for success:

1) The community has ownership of and control over decision
making.

2) Culture is central to the program including
an understanding of local context.

3) Local Indigenous staff work on the program or in the
organization.

4)Good corporate governance exists.

5) Trusting relationships are established.

6) Flexibility in timelines.

There's more at:

http://aifs.gov.au/resources/policy-and-practice-papers/what-makes-effective-indigenous-community-managed-programs-and

Someone used to recite this annoying nonsense before our concerts,
nobody meant it of course, nobody listened anyway, but it was done out of fear and left a bad taste.
It had absolutely nothing to do with the music we came to play and our audience to listen to.

Then our orchestra got a new brave president who declared that we will not be doing that thing any more,
so our concerts now start straight with the music, or perhaps with the conductor first speaking about the music that we are about to play.

Our audience is happy, we waste no time - their or ours, we concentrate on our music and we received no threats or adverse effects.

Then who loses? Only the latecomers!

In any case, no people own or ever owned the land - it is God's alone, who for a while lends it to all creatures.

Land acknowledgement ceremonies exist in other countries.
Canada and the United States are two examples. Closer to home
is New Zealand.

In our own "Welcome to Country," I don't think that they are
saying that we don't belong here or that " This is my country".
What they're saying is their ancestors have been here for
thousands of generations. That we are relatively new arrivals.
And there's nothing wrong for us to acknowledge that.

I'm sure the Hitler salute had similar origins. As Yuyutsu observed, the thing has coercive and authoritarian overtones and instills a fear of what might happen to you if you object. Utterly revolting and disgusting to force it on people. So why not just object as there is no penalty for not doing it. Well,few want to do a Lydia Thorpe and there are very good reasons for having a secret ballot.

It's a needle in my side whenever I vote.

For Indigenous people I've read that "Country" means
more than just the land.

It includes the values, stories, resources and cultural
obligations associated with the area.

"Welcome to Country" is an important way of giving our
Indigenous people back their place in society. A way of
paying respect in a formal sense and following traditional custom
in a symbolic way.

This custom apparently has existed amongst our Indigenous
people for generations. It was introduced to the non-Indigenous
in the late 2970s. However, as I stated earlier - it's not
mandated. You're free to leave or not attend if you object.
And as Yuyutsu told us - his organisation decided not to
have the ceremony. Personally, If we want respect from others,
it's not a big ask to show respect to others. Especially in the
case of our Indigenous people.

Sorry for my typo -

l should have typed - the - "1970s"

.

"This custom apparently has existed amongst our Indigenous people for generations."

Rubbish. Just a made-up post-factum justification.

There was no such ceremonies in aboriginal culture before it was conjured out of thin air in 1976. If such a thing previously existed it wouldn't have needed to be created by Ernie Dingo and his mates.

Anyone even vaguely familiar with the writings of the early explorers would know that no such ceremonies were ever performed, even when those explorers were indeed welcomed by this or that tribe.

Affable Ernie has a lot to answer for. Before settlement, aborigines were killing each other; they were not welcoming; most conflict was about territory.

Good to see that someone in Yuyutsu's group put a stop to the nonsense. There are others who have done the same.

I'm not affected because I have as little to do with people as possible these days, and I don't go anywhere this crap is practised.

As always, it is up to voters to pull politicians and other idiots into line. Your next chance is only a few months off now.

Use your preferences wisely. You won't hurt your preferred candidate if you don't follow his how-to-vote card.

Pauline Hanson recently ran a mini-poll to see how many people knew how to use the preference system. Of the 150 people she asked, only 8 did know.

Some poor souls think that if they want to vote for Joe Blow, they have to number all the other squares the way Joe's how-to-vote card says.

Speaking of Pauline Hanson, that lady has had a bunch of documents thrown at her by the unladylike Senator Lidia Thorpe, when Senator Hanson quite reasonably suggested that Senator Fatima Payman provide proof that she had renounced her Afghani citizenship.

It has been alleged that Senator Payman is in breach of sec. 44 of the Constitution which bans dual-citizens from being elected to the Federal Parliament. The Senator claims to have tried to cancel her Afghani citizenship, but the Taliban didn't cooperate. Be that as it may - and Senator Payman has identified as an Afghani citizen on occasion - Senator Hanson was entitled to call on her out on the matter, and she was verbally abused by Senator Payman for doing so.

Politicians are always abusing each other; but that's not enough for Senator Thorpe, who got physical, and threw documents at Senator Hanson. The act is unlikely to cause harm, unless a paper clip contacted an eye or some such: but it technically an assault. We wait to see what will be done about it. The troublesome Senator has surely been given enough chances to act in a manner fitting her position.

Not only is our government a source of embarrassment, so too is our Parliament.

Trumpster,

$40 million is a conservatives estimate for Charlie Windsor's junket. $2 million you say, that's about 7 cents p/a for every Australian. Do you know how much us taxpayer shell out for aged welfare for the Old Farts $55 billion.

$144 million in stolen wages from aboriginal workers in WA, disgraceful.

You and others here are only banging on about this because it involves Aboriginal people.

That useless slug Peter Dutton cost the taxpayer $449,914.23 in expenses last financial year. A big chunk of it spent flying his family mob around the country.

Another useless slug feeding off the taxpayer is Pauline Pantsdown, who claimed $74,397.29 in domestic travel. This parasite on the taxpayer even had the hide to make a claim for 33 cents for an "office consumable" must have been that paper clip ttbn is banging on about.

"I (ttbn) have as little to do with people as possible these days," Everyone should be thankful for such a small mercy.

Hi Paul,

If seminars began with an official of the Crown welcoming me to Australia and having me sing a round of God Save the King I would be equally disgusted and angry.

What is odious to me about welcome to country/acknowledgement of country is the coercion and absence of an underlying democratic process.

Richard Walley told NITV News in reply to the
criticisms that "Welcome to Country" ceremonies are
new rituals.

Walley explains that what we have today are new interpretations
for non-Indigenous that are quite new, but they are
connected to something quite ancient.

That, "Welcome to Country" ceremonies have taken place for
thousands and thousands of years in Indigenous communities.

This can be confirmed at any of our National and
state libraries, and in the works of reputable historians
using primary sources and archival collections.

"The Führer visited a lunatic asylum. All the patients were told to stand in a row, and they were given instructions on how to salute him. When Hitler approached they all raised their right hands and shouted: ‘Heil Hitler!’ Only the last man in the row uttered no sound and did not raise his hand. Red with rage Hitler stepped up to him and shouted: ‘Don’t you know who I am? Why don’t you raise your hand?’ ‘I beg your pardon,’ replied the man politely, ‘I am the doctor. I’m not a lunatic’.’"

https://www.theholocaustexplained.org/resistance-responses-collaboration/non-conformity/refusal-to-salute/

Hi Foxy,

All indigenous people have in their culture some form of "welcome to country". In the case of my wife's people its called a "Powhiri", which is rather elaborate, with set rituals and protocols. These ceremonies were of great practical importance, not just ceremonial, they indicated that the visitors were not hostile and come in peace, and the host were also similarly obliging.

What some ignorant clowns here want to believe is indigenous people were constantly at war with each other, that's simply not true, constant war serves no ones purpose, and is counter productive.

Senator Fatima Payman screeched at Senator Hanson that she was a “disgrace to the human race” when Senator Hanson rightly referred to the allegations that Senator Payman had been elected in breach of Section 44 of the Australian Constitution.

The PrimeMinister has taken no action on the matter. The President of the Senate refused to refer the matter to the Senate Standing Committee. There is no evidence that Senator Payman took steps to renounce her Afghani citizenship; only her word.

Senator Hanson sought leave to have the matter tabled: granted by Labor but, you guessed it, denied by the Greens.

Despite the question mark hanging over Senator Payman, it is rumoured that she might form her own party!

Our clearly written, globally admired Constitution is being treated like a scrap of toilet paper by the Albanese government; and the other mob hasn't shown much, if any, interest in this serious matter either.

No wonder some aborigines are grafting when most of out politicians are showing them how to do it.

The Senate itself can't be relied on for anything much, given its ragtag members and the few votes it takes to get them in to shout at each other.

For the fifth time, it has knocked back an enquiry into the use of puberty blockers on children. Another one of Senator Hanson's humane and caring ideas. There seems to be little to zero care about kids in Australia. Hand them over to Albanese to deal with. It doesn't matter that he has proved that he can't handle anything he sticks his new communist nose into.

Kids can't watch or participate in social media to “protect” them, but they can turn themselves into freaks with puberty blockers!

Albanese's claim to be ‘protecting children’ is just another big fat LIE. What he is ‘protecting’ is the ideology of transgenderism. He never was fit for office, and he is getting worse as the next election approaches. Hopefully voters have been watching and thinking.

ttbn,

You claim to be a genius when it comes to Australia's political system. How can 11 Senators from the Greens defeat a Senate vote with a majority being 38? How did the Liberal/National party members vote? Just because Pauline Pantsdown, with her minuscule representation wants something, the Senate doesn't have to comply.

Even the ‘Times of India’ picked up the ugly scenes in our Senate: the perhaps-not-legit Payman's unhinged screeching about racism; Thorpe's typical insane behaviour (for which she was suspended, and left, flipping the bird).

The Times reported Australia's “ongoing tensions surrounding race, identity”.

Our global reputation for a country sucking up to globalisation is not good.

Dear Paul,

I have to admit that I find some of the conversations on
this forum very disheartening. Take this discussion as an
example. The title given here was "Welcome to Graft".
Tals about corruption in Indigenous organisations ensued.
Followed by claims that "Welcome to Country"was something
Ernie Dingo dreamt up. Followed by more derogatory comments.

Why? We might ask? Do these people have anything good or
positive to say about our Indigenous people? Why these
attempted sledgings?

As we grow older we face many challenges. Life for many of
us is not about waiting for the storm to pass. It's about
learning how to dance in the rain.

Some here have said that there were no records about
"Welcome to Country" found in the frontier records. Welll,
there was much that was left out - for obvious reasons.

When I worked at the State Library of Victoria I was given
the Indigenous oral collection to catalogue. The stories were
amazing. I learned a great deal.

I can't help wondering if the commentators here see anything
positive about our Indigenous people? Anything good to say?

Everything may not be good about any people - but surely we
can find something good in them?

Stay positive.

It makes a big difference to you and others.

Dear Fester,

Thanks for sharing your story about Hitler. I've got a
story for you. My grandfather spoke about the time he
helped out at a mental hospital. He remembered one
particular patient that he'd enjoy talking to. The man
was articulate, knowledgeable, good company.

Granpa asked some of the staff - "Why is he here? He
appears so normal?"

A staff member told grandpa - "During your talks with him,
ask him to sit down?"

Grandpa - did just that.

The man went ballistic. He became violent and started
smashing furniture. A dangerous situation followed.

Grandpa asked "Why?"

"He is convinced he's go a glass bum". Grandpa was told.
"And, if he sits on it - it'll break".

Grandpa understood.

You can't change some people's beliefs.

Yet again we see Paul not even trying to defend the 'Welcome to Country' carpetbaggers, just trying to deflect by pointing to what he thinks are other carpetbaggers.

Says it al.

BTW, has anyone noticed Pauls' penchant for comparing everything to the aged pension and his declared disdain for aged pensioners who he thinks are bludging on the system? Anyone else think he "doth protest too much"?

Getting back to the topic:

We're told that:

"Most Australians tested for unconscious bias hold a
negative view of Indigenous Australians which can lead to
widespread racism. New analysis from the Australian
National University (ANU) shows..."

http://anu.edu.au/news/all-news/three-in-four-people-hold-negative-view-of-indigenous-people

Interesting read.

Exactly Foxy. What problem could people have with a simple wave of the hand? A simple gesture of good will between people, its origins going back to ancient Rome. Symbolic of a commitment to building a great nation and making a contribution to civilization. How could anyone object to something so benign? Maybe the objectors would come around if they learned what it was about? Dr Himmler is setting up some camps for the purpose. They look like great fun and the staff seem so caring.

After Thorpe was suspended from the Senate, she continued to shout slogans through the open door until it was closed. She then got herself around to the press area and continued shouting from there.

Hi Fester,

I've been in and out of hospital this year and I've met
all sorts of people from different cultures and with
different medical problems. I made up my mind early that
I could either whinge, and complain, or I could make the
most of my time there. I chose to make the most of my time.
As it turned out - it was one of the most positive
experiences ever.

I guess it all comes down to us - doesn't it? We have a
choice as to how we behave. If we make the most of things
we may find ourselves enjoying life more and making things
pleasant for others as well.

I don't mean to preach. And I certainly don't want to sound
like a know-it-all. Just sharing what I've experienced.
And I find that the older I get - the more I realize how
much I have yet to learn. Still life is a work in progress -
isn't it.

Thanks for your civility. Believe me, it is appreciated.

As for Lidia Thorpe?
I feel sorry for her. All she will succeed in doing is
alienating more people. It's sad that she doesn't see
herself as others see her. Perhaps one day she will.
Her family needs to talk to her.

""Welcome to Country" ceremonies have taken place for thousands and thousands of years in Indigenous communities."

We know from things like the Bruce Pascoe fiasco that there is a segment of the community who are anxious to fall for all sorts of fables if it comes out of an indigenous mouth, and that mere facts are really not of concern. Ever heard of "Secret Women's Business"?

Ernie Dingo has openly stated that he and a few other fabricated the whole 'Welcome' malarkey out of whole-cloth to get past an embarrassing problem with some visiting Pacific Islanders. We know that there isn't any historic evidence that the 'Welcome' ceremonies every existed in the past. But someone making the unsupported (and supportable) claim to the contrary is all that the willing dupes of the aboriginal industry need. And there's nothing, literally nothing in terms of evidence, that will cause these people to see the truth. Best leave them to their fantasies.

But of coarse, the whole 'Welcome to Country' process has deteriorated to the point where 'Welcome' is the last thing the perpetrators are pushing. Its more like a "How Dare you be in My Country' ceremony. Its more of the same - we've always been here, you have no right to be here, and where's my money for putting on my a-historic performance. We must be a rich country if we can waste money on this rubbish.

ttbn is right. None of us a forced to sit through these performance pieces and listen to someone dressed in dead animals tell us fables about the past. My observance is that what many now adopt that view. While there is a general politeness about the obligatory singing of the national anthem or the ANZAC observations on or around ANZAC Day, many people now treat the Welcome malarkey as something that they can ignore.

Go to any sporting event and you'll find great swathes of folk talking through the ceremony. Don't go and try to use the toilet facilities or food court while the native-du-jour explains how wonderful things were 70,000 years ago. Because a sizable proportion of the attendees will take the opportunity to duck off to the loo or buy their meat pie rather than endure the lecture.

Count me in that crowd.

All anyone has to do is visit their National or State
libraries, go to museums that deal with Australian
history and have Indigenous history collections or
read books by reputable historians.

Getting the facts is such an educational experience.
It needs to be encouraged. Especially for our young people.

This is a final attempt at clarification:

"Welcome to country between Indigenous Australian
communities have a history of thousands of years.
But Ernie Dingo and Richard Walley say theirs was
the first to be performed in the country for
non-Indigenous Australians".

There's more at the following:

http://theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/feb/23/ernie-dingo-and-richard-walley-on-the-40th-year-of-their-welcome-to-country

It's our choice to appreciate of not, this ceremony

Hi Foxy,

You ask several questions as to why there are those on this forum who do their upmost to demonise and denigrate Aboriginal people, the answer is not a mystery by any means, these Old Farts are simply displaying their bigoted racisms. Would you expect anything less from a Trumpster and a sycophantic admirer of Pauline Pantsdown.

What about the quote from the incessant poster ttbn; "I (ttbn) have as little to do with people as possible these days," I'd say that's mutual, people would avoid the old bloke like the plague, so he comes on here and bangs on constantly to strangers.

The more I look at democracy the more I think it's extremely flawed.
I think maybe I'd rather just have one ruling party, and that we democratically vote people in and out of positions within the party.

That way were not playing pass the baton with two stupid major parties who exist for the sake of disagreement, but that all are working towards the greater good and the best outcome for all the citizenry.

Does our democracy foster good outcomes, poor outcomes or neither?

Maybe the indigenous should just face the harsh reality that this isn't THEIR country anymore.
With a million international students and a million immigrants every year, this nation of theirs has been conquered by foreigners, and their isn't any going back.

'Welcome to country' is no more than lip-service and a delusion.

Hi AC,

We've all heard someone ask - "Why can't Indigenous
people just get over it? After all, it happened
ages ago..."

The reason why many Indigenous people can't simply
get over the past is because the negative affects
of colonisation are still having an impact on
Indigenous people every day often in drastic ways.

These 18th century colonial attitudes set in motion
events and policies and established systems and
institutions that continue to have an impact on
Indigenous people today.

Despite Indigenous people's determined efforts to
resist and overcome their adversity.

We need to respect the norms and values of all our
people, avoid stereotypes, judgements and biases.
We should try to be clear and inclusive and
establish clear and shared expectations.

It's our choice as to the kind of country we
want to live in. After all we are a country that
values stability. We don't like disturbances,
valuing stability. We're suspicious of
demagoguary. We have a fondness of long-standing
norms and conventions but we
are comfortable when these are challenged with merit and
through due process.

We have allowed a wide diversity of people but we also
prize the arms-length distance from the world that
our geography allows.

There was a time when to be Australian was to be English,
only sunburnt. As national identity has changed in our
own lifetime, it changed in our great-grandparents time,
and even in their great-grandparents time. I guess what
I am trying to say is - we should let our Indigenous
people have their celebrations so that we can become the
tolerant Australians that we aspire to be and more importantly
create the Australia that we aspire to live in.

In the words of of a great Australian - there's never
been a more exciting time tp be Australian -
than right now.

Dear Critic,

«Maybe the indigenous should just face the harsh reality that this isn't THEIR country anymore.»

It never was theirs in the first place, nor is it now yours.

Did you make the land yourself? NO.
Or did you receive the land as gift from its maker? NO.
Or did you purchase the land from its maker (or from whoever bought it from the maker earlier then resold it to you, etc.)? NO.

Even the Bible, when claiming that the land of Israel was given by God to certain people, was written by interested parties, not by God and does not carry His signature, and even if you believe that, then that claimed gift was conditional even by the Bible itself and meanwhile the included conditions were broken.

The aboriginal people wrote no such Bible, nor can you produce any evidence of yourself receiving this land of Australia from its maker - that is because you never did. The land still belongs to its maker and so it will remain!

Yuyutsu,

With all due respect. I don't think that the Indigenous are
saying that we don't belong here of that this is "my country".
What they are saying is their ancestors have been here
for many generations that we are relatively new arrivals.
That they were the First Nations people here.

For Indigenous people " Country" means more than just the land.
It includes the values, stories, resources and cultural
obligations associated with the area.

The "Welcome to Country" ceremonies are a very important way
of giving our Indigenous people back their place in society.
It's a way of paying respect in a formal sense and following
traditional custom in a symbolic way.

Welcome to country ceremonies have taken place for thousands
of years amongst the Indigenous people. What we hace currently
is a new interpretation for non-Indigenous which is quite new
but it is connected to something that is quite ancient.
As the links I gave explained.

" these Old Farts are simply displaying their bigoted racisms"

There exists a class of people who are so desperate to be not considered racist, especially by themselves, that they look on anything less than abject, unthinking, obeisance to all things indigenous as beyond the pail and objectively racist.

So criticise a practice conjured up by a few natives to fleece the nation for their own benefit is racist, even though the practice doesn't help the natives most in need.

So criticise the obvious misogyny in native culture and these genuflecting souls will dutifully cry racist, without giving the slightest thought to the victims of that misogyny who are mere pawns in the efforts toward pretend anti-racism. To these people, merely mentioning the vastly disproportionate death rate among aboriginal women at the hands of the violent menfolk is racist.

The most dangerous, the most detrimental participants in the efforts toward improving the lives and standing of the natives (ALL the natives) in this nation are those claiming to be anti-racist but in reality merely seek virtue signalling approval.

Hi Yuyutsu,

For me wct is neither about indigenous Australians or the question of who own the land. It is about why a ritual has been coercively introduced into our lives without either a legal or a democratic basis.

Foxy laments the views of people here, yet I see the expression of diverse views on a public forum as a healthy expression of democracy. Think of the photo of a group of people giving a Hitler salute and one fellow among them standing with his arms crossed. I guess that we all want to be the champion of truth and justice, yet I would guess that nearly all in the photo believed themselves to be people of moderate views wishing to be part of a prosperous and just Germany.

Democracy is about having a diversity of views and giving everyone a voice. It isn't about introducing something akin to a Hitler salute and then lamenting because everyone doesn't jump up and down cheering about it.

"All anyone has to do is visit their National or State libraries, go to museums...."

Its the worst form of intellectual snobbery to claim that what you want to be true is indeed true merely because its what you want to believe it. Its compounded by the unresearched and ignorant claim that if only someone, but obviously not the person claiming to have this unresearched knowledge,...if only someone would do the research in libraries and museums then they'd find the data to validate the original unsupported and unsupportable claims.

During the 'Dark Emu' debate I invited Foxy to read Sturt's diaries. She simply refused to do so because they might reveal that which she'd prefer wasn't revealed. Again, anyone familiar with Sturt or many other of the early explorers would know that there was no Welcome to County ceremonies in the ancient native cultures, even when natives did indeed welcome the newcomers and especially the new goods and technologies. When Sturt came across tribes that were friendly, he was often offered food, or things like boomerangs (and occasionally young women) in return for flour or metal goods. But never was he subjected to some ceremony that allowed him to enter their claimed lands.

That's why Ernie Dingo had to make it up in 1976.

Dear Foxy,

«With all due respect. I don't think that the Indigenous are
saying that we don't belong here of that this is "my country".»

Some actually do say that, just as some "White"/"British" Australians are saying practically the same now (in relation to newer immigrants).
Fortunately both are minorities.
I listen to neither.

«What they are saying is... That they were the First Nations people here.»

This attribution is not nice or respectful, this is not what aboriginal people would call themselves: nationalism is a western/white disease and aboriginals were never infected by it before the white people came.

«The "Welcome to Country" ceremonies are a very important way
of giving our Indigenous people back their place in society.»

As an example of a society, indigenous people were never excluded to begin with from my orchestra, which in fact was first established by indigenous people - at the time it was established, nearly all members were born in Australia, while presently I would estimate it at around half of the musicians. Note that I make no distinction, nor does my orchestra, between aboriginal and English/European Australians - as far as I am concerned, both are equally natives. Instead, we consider people only according to their personality and musical talent.

---

Dear Fester,

«It is about why a ritual has been coercively introduced into our lives without either a legal or a democratic basis.»

I wouldn't go that far as to call it "coercive".
Nobody ordered us to do it.
Nobody threatened us with jail or even fines if we didn't (or alternately that they would break into our homes at night and bash our skulls if we didn't).
As I noted, we are no longer doing it.
Yes, there used to be an unfounded atmosphere of suspicion and fear of some potential retribution should we fail to do it, but here we are, we are not doing it and the sky did not fall!

Yuyutsu,

Thank you for sharing your viewpoints.

I'm glad to read that your music group is so
tolerant and inclusive.

Hi Yuyutsu,

Coercion tends to have very subtle beginnings. Do you know why your group started having wtc, why you continued using it and why you stopped using it? You mentioned that your new president was brave for announcing that you wouldn't do wtc any more. Why was he brave for doing that? Why were you happy when you no longer had to do wtc?

We don't have a photo with us Yuyutsu, so how do you know who is giving a salute and who has their arms crossed? Better to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself I think.

Hi Fester,

Do you stand in public when the National Anthem is played? Would you stand on ceremony if Charlie Windsor entered the room?

Those banging on about the supposed expenditure of $2 million on "welcome to country" are doing so as they are nothing but racist in my book. Back in 1977 the government spent $8 million to ditch 'Good Save The Queen" in favour of Advance Australia Fair" as a national song. 'Advance Australia Fair' had been declared the Australian National Anthem in 1974 by Whitlam, and then reversed by Fraser who reinstated 'God Save The Queen' as the national anthem in 1976. Then in 1984 Hawke reversed that, back to 'Advance Australia Fair'
BTW 'Advance Australia Fair' was written by a Scotsman Peter Dodds McCormick in 1878.

Hi Paul,

I've taken to thinking that only people with good intentions come here. I remember the portrait of the Queen being exchanged for a portrait of Gough when I was a school kid. I even complained about the audacity of it to Senator Flo at a shopping centre. And Malcolm running the republican gig to me was more about his thoughts of President Malcolm than anything else.

We're more defined by the foibles of our humanity than by the stereotyping of identity politics. At least that is what a belief in equality suggests to me.

For me this discussion has raised the question of how aoc/wtc have become so prevalent. It's as if it just appeared like magic. I even read a comment from a fellow claiming that his employment would be terminated if he did not read aoc at the start of each shift. Could that possibly be true for something that apparently has no legal basis?

Hi Fester,

What you have said is anecdotal and I can't dispute it, if Elizabeth Windsors photo was replace by one of Gough Whitlam, where and by whom I don't know. As for the welcome to country, I'm willing to acknowledge the traditional owners of this land, and I believe they have a unique place in its history. Having said that, the reality of history sits comfortably with me, I see myself as Australian, and the equal all other Australians, be they of Aboriginal or of any other descendances. Those who want to bucket on Aboriginals seem to me to have a fear that they are not legitimate Australians, and want to hide from the uncomfortable reality. All Australians should be inclusive, not exclusive.

BTW; You didn't answer my questions. If Mr Windsor was to enter I would welcome him with the same cordiality that I welcome all people, I see him as my equal, not my superior.

Hi Paul,

"BTW; You didn't answer my questions. If Mr Windsor was to enter I would welcome him with the same cordiality that I welcome all people, I see him as my equal, not my superior."

You asked questions related to conventions related to a democratic process by elected officials, and as you observed, whether you follow them or not is your choice to do without fear of repercussion. So how is it then that aoc/wtc has been established by neither legal nor democratic process, yet some people, albeit anecdotally, might even fear for their employment if they don't follow it? I've never seen observance as a condition of employment, but I do find the practice to be coercive. I believe that there should be a senate inquiry into aoc/wtc. It would give us plebs the chance to share experiences via submissions and would establish the practices democratically if met with approval.

Hi Fester,

No, I didn't ask about "conventions" or "democratic process", I asked about personal reaction. I can only assume you would stand and sing 'God Save The King' which is still the protocol when these "royals" are in the presence of other "lesser mortals".Why?

BTW, I don't see a need for a Senate Inquiry into aoc/wtc, as the acceptance of these practices is well established, and supported by the overwhelming majorly of Australians. The calls for Senate Enquiries is way over done.

Hi Paul,

"I don't see a need for a Senate Inquiry into aoc/wtc, as the acceptance of these practices is well established, and supported by the overwhelming majorly of Australians. "

Do you have an opinion poll supporting your contention? Every time I read what the plebs have to say on social media the only thing that's overwhelming are calls for aoc/wtc to cease. Maybe that's another reason why Albo wanted to shut people up with his MAD bill? A Senate hearing fielding public submissions is one of the best ways to give the practice a democratic foundation.

"I can only assume you would stand and sing 'God Save The King' which is still the protocol when these "royals" are in the presence of other "lesser mortals".Why?"

Tell me Paul, where is standing for the national anthem and singing God Save the King a condition of employment or a factor of being considered for promotion? Unlike aoc/wtc, whether you stand or sing, you do so freely and without fear of repercussion. Why do you think Yuyutsu thought the president of his musical group brave for announcing that there would be no more wtc/aoc? Do you think that he might have feared angry responses from the public?

Hi Fester,

If I attend a gathering and there is an opening acknowledgment which recognises Aboriginal land, elders etc I have no particular problem with that, just as I have no problem standing for the national anthem. If I'm in an RSL club I come to attention at 6 o'clock when the Ode Of Remembrance is played, even though I am a pacifist and very much anti-war. p/s I have given a couple of Aboriginal acknowledgments myself over the years, and I'm not aware of anyone jumping up and down about it. I get a very strong anti aboriginal vibe from certain forum contributors, but that's because they are extreme bigots and racist.

BTW, just recently someone was telling me that one place he worked at, a new manager banned morning tea birthday cakes for staff, and later refused a staff Xmas party, both of which had been company practice for years. Seems the new bloke was a JW and demanded that staff respect his religious convictions.

"banned morning tea birthday cakes for staff, and later refused a staff Xmas party"
- That's grounds for staff to go on strike.
Or beter still, organise all workers to go at a snails pace.

Dear Fester,

«Do you know why your group started having wtc, why you continued using it and why you stopped using it? You mentioned that your new president was brave for announcing that you wouldn't do wtc any more. Why was he brave for doing that? Why were you happy when you no longer had to do wtc?»

Sorry, I was not privy to our committee's decision to start and then continue having wtc.
They likely believed (for no real good reason), I guess, that the concert-venue's owner would be upset if we didn't and would no longer let us use that space.

Our new president was brave because he did not fear the possibility of attracting the owner's ire... which never came!

And I'm happy because I no longer need to hear that strident nonsense. We are there to make music, not to discuss land-ownership.

«It is about why a ritual has been coercively introduced into our lives without either a legal or a democratic basis.»

I would still stop short of calling it "coercive" and rather just describe it as "unpleasant" or "discordant".
Look, we have traditions/rituals, like when the conductor enters the stage for the first time we all rise and stand. Nobody ever told us that we MUST stand and nobody ever objected.

«Think of the photo of a group of people giving a Hitler salute and one fellow among them standing with his arms crossed.»

It depends where the photograph is taken:
If it's in a Nazi-party branch, then I would wonder what that fellow is doing there.
I'm most happy to be in my orchestra, totally of my own free will, we elect our committee democratically at our AGM, though I cannot recall there ever been more than one volunteer for a position. Had I been willing to dedicate all this time and effort, I guess I could have been the president myself.

Suppose we were playing a Beethoven symphony and one odd guy played Mozart instead, then I wouldn't support such "democratic expression", but rather agree that his place is not with us!

Hi AC,

The JW's are an odd bunch, I know a few, there're mostly harmless, but have some wacko beliefs, no Xmas, Birthdays, Easter, etc etc, a real bunch of funsters! Regardless of any religious beliefs, I've come across people who outwardly seem intelligent, but like children believing in fairytales, taking everything in the Bible as literal. To me that is crazy. I once spoke to a bloke who outwardly seems "normal", but during discussion he was adamant the universe was 4,000 years old, that according to him, the Bible said so, a creationist. I said but science has proven beyond doubt that the universe is billions of years old, nope the Bible said so, must be true. Insane! I assume if the Bible said the Moon was made out of green cheese he'd believe that as well.

Hi Paul,

I'd think the bloke's conduct as more reflective of him being a bastard than a JW.

Hi Yuyutsu,

"Look, we have traditions/rituals, like when the conductor enters the stage for the first time we all rise and stand. Nobody ever told us that we MUST stand and nobody ever objected."

Maybe that relates to doing things in the same fashion if the outcome is good?

"Suppose we were playing a Beethoven symphony and one odd guy played Mozart instead, then I wouldn't support such "democratic expression", but rather agree that his place is not with us!"

That sounds more a violation of the job description. No "I" in orchestra.

The photo was taken at a shipyard at the launch of a Nazi war vessel. The fellow with his arms crossed had a Jewish wife and didn't like the Nazi's racial ideology. He got arrested, conscripted into the Wehrmacht and ended up kia. The other guys were fellow workers no doubt pleased with having employment.

Would either of you think Lana Collaris a racist for objecting to aoc/wtc?

"She said the implication of the welcome messages was that non-Aboriginal people are of a lesser status, and to say so was at odds with the law she had sworn to uphold.

'It's the constant repetition of this message that's being given to us, that sovereignty does not exist within the Crown in some way, and that's what I've got an issue with.

'It's wrong in law and it's wrong in fact as well and that's why I decided to make a stand.'"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13905187/lawyer-hits-accused-racist-refusing-Welcome-Country.html

The comments do not suggest to me that wtc/aoc has overwhelming public support. I'd like there to be a senate committee hearing so that plebs like me can have a say about the practice.