.

The US is rated by the Economist Intelligence Unit as a “flawed democracy” and has been for the past 8 years. It is “flawed” because Americans don’t seem to care much for democracy – rule by the people, for the people – because that’s not exactly the way it works.

The reality is "rule by the elite 10% of the population" who possess 70% of the nation’s wealth and the power to influence the political class to act in their favour.

And, as we saw in the 2016 presidential election, Hilary Clinton received nearly 3 million more votes than Donald Trump, but Trump won the election. The votes of 3 million Americans did not count because the president is not elected by the people. They only elect the members of an electoral college who, in turn, elect the president.

This complex, labyrinthine electoral system has so far rewarded 5 presidents who had lost the popular vote (Adams, Hayes, Harrison, G. W. Bush, & Trump).

According to a Pew Research poll last month, 63% of Americans would prefer the winner of the popular vote to be the president. But there are wide partisan differences :

- 80% of Democrats are for the popular vote

- 53% of Republicans are against & 46% for the popular vote

Democracy is on the wane throughout the world.

Trump or Harris, the battle of the gods (the Titans, the older generation of gods, against the Olympians, the younger generation) is about to begin.

Which one will the fountain bless ?

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Hi Banjo

The Economist Intelligence Unit rates the USA as a flawed democracy, but this is not because of "rule by the elite 10% of the population". Nor is it because it sometimes does not deliver government to the party or presidential candidate with the most votes – all voting systems based on geographical constituencies sometimes do this, including ours (in 1988 Labor won 51% of the vote after preferences but still didn’t win government).

The reason the USA has slipped from being categorised a “full democracy” to a “flawed democracy” since 2016 is mainly due to a decline in political culture and the functioning of government. Americans don’t trust elected officials and see them as corrupt. The electorate is highly polarised and support for democracy has eroded.

You can read The Economist’s article here (it’s behind a paywall, but non-subscribers get limited access).

http://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2024/03/21/why-america-is-a-flawed-democracy

This is particular worrying because we seem to be heading in the same direction, though we are not yet so far down the track and rate comparatively well. Australia is ranked as a “full democracy”, but its rating has slipped in recent years.

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Dear Rhian,

.

Thank you for your comment.

Yes, I am aware of the Economist Intelligence Unit's political culture explanation for classifying the US as a “flawed democracy.”

The American political scientists Gabriel Almond and Sydney Verba identified three types of political culture in their 1963 treatise :

1. parochial, in which citizens have neither knowledge of nor interest in politics and are only indistinctly aware of the existence of a central government

2. subject, in which citizens largely obey but participate little, seeing themselves not as participants in the political process but as subjects of the government

3. participant, in which citizens understand and take part in politics and voluntary associations

It seems to me that Almond and Verba’s core idea was that a “full democracy” is a society where subject and parochial attitudes provide ballast to an essentially participant culture.

The evolution of the political culture in the US over the past 8 years has seen a drastic reduction in participant culture to the extent that democracy is no longer “rule by the people, for the people”.

Political power has been monopolised by a small elite who control the economy and exercise a large and important influence on society in general.

American democracy has been downgraded to "rule by the elite 10% of the population" who possess 70% of the nation’s wealth and the power to influence the political class to act in their favour, and not necessarily in the public interest.

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I would not describe America as a "Flawed Democracy", rather its an "Illusion Democracy", where the democratic process is controlled by a privileged power elite for their benefit, and our of course, that goes without saying. This power elite allows a pretence of democracy to operate in narrow confines, where subservient politicians, and only subservient politicians, tinker around to give an illusion that there is some kind of democratic process at work for the common good. Common good, how ridiculous, who thought that nonsense up. If the people ever demand (a nasty word in some peoples book) true democracy then the power elite will have their military forces take care of that terrible kind of insurrection! How dare the people think they deserve to run the democratic process, the power elite tell us they are doing a perfectly good job at it, an it does not require interference by the riff-raff or their mates the great unwashed! Same applies in Australia.

"(in 1988 Labor won 51% of the vote after preferences but still didn’t win government)."

Wrong:

* there was no federal election in 1988.
* you're thinking of the 1990 election.
* but you got the winners the wrong way around
* the Liberals won the TPP vote 50.1% to 49.9% but Labor held onto power because of a strategy of targeting marginal seats and also due to a gerrymander against the Liberal electorates.
* that is, they realised that winning the majority of the seats was the game not winning the majority of the votes.

Ditto USA.

On TV the other night,

Elbridge Gerry a founding father of American democracy and Governor of Massachusetts, ha ha, having drawn the district boundaries in the state, one resembling a grotesque salamander, which was designed to see to it that dear old Elbridge's Federalist Party retained power, his action eventually become known as the gerrymander!

Democracy is flawed ! Anything that puts the minorities ahead majorities is a recipe for dysfunction ! We witness this happening now in real time !
It's just that the stupid can't see it !

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Dear Rhian,

.

Oops, sorry ! That was a typing mistake. I meant to type 1888, not 1988.

Republican Benjamin Harrison defeated Democratic incumbent Grover Cleveland, winning the electoral college vote 233–168 despite losing the popular vote, which Cleveland won with 5,540,309 votes against Harrison’s 5,439,853 votes.

My apologies.

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Oh-o. It looks like Trump stands a chance of winning the election.

Well the reliably left leaning Economist has to get its ducks in a row to try to show how that wasn't a valid win. If, on the other hand, Kamala gets up, we can be sure the Economist and the rest of the left leaning MSM (is there any other type?) will assure us it was a victory for true democracy.

Pretty much every democracy has a system that allows for the possibility of people winning even though they didn't get a majority of the vote. Australia in 1990. And don't even mention the Senate where some states get votes valued at over 10 times those of others.

Britain likewise has had its examples given that the first-past-the-post system is almost designed to allow victories with less than 50% support. And again, the House of Lords?

What the Economist is really complaining of is that the US might vote for policies it (the Economist) dislikes and that is, to their thinking, definitionally undemocratic.

There is no perfect democracy. Setting up a series of idealistic criteria and denouncing failure to meet those criteria as proof that this or that jurisdiction isn't democratic is flawed thinking.

Athens didn't allow women the vote. Not democratic
Rome had an unelected Senate - Not democratic.
Australia's Senate
Britain's Lords.
The Electoral College.

There is no such thing as a perfect democracy. Never will be in the real world.

BTW, strictly speaking the US doesn't claim to be a democracy. Its a Federal Republic where the competing interests of the states are resolved in a peaceful and agreed upon fashion. And in that regards its been an exemplar for the world, including this country.

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Dear Paul1405,

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Yes, Elbridge Gerry was one of America’s remarkable politicians and certainly left his mark on the political vocabulary.

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Oh-o. It looks like Trump stands a chance of winning the election.
mhaze,
That'd be a worry for the non-productive. Just like here if Dutton gets elected. What the non-productive don't seem to grasp is that people are getting fed up with working & paying taxes to feed the former.
Parasitism only lasts as long as the contents of the coffers !

Dear Banjo and Mhaze

I must offer my own “oops sorry” too - I should have typed 1998 not 1988.

Mhaze

As an ex-pom I know all too well how the constituency system in the UK can result in the election of governments most people don’t want. The problem is far worse there because of the first-past-the-post system, whereas our preference system does tend to even things out so the least unpopular party usually wins, and also means that minor parties get more reasonable representation.

I agree that every system has its flaws, and there is no perfect democracy.

In the USA, The Economist is currently predicting that Trump is most likely to win even though Harris has more popular support, because Trump is ahead in the swing states that will almost certainly determine the outcome. I don’t think that means The Economist (or Harris) will dispute the result if she loses – unlike Trump, both Harris and The Economist respect the system, or at least realise that not abiding by its results is a very bad idea.

Rhian,

Yes I'd forgotten about the 1998 election. So two with 8 years where the winner of the TPP didn't win government.

The thing is this. The aim is to win seats, so parties will not bother campaigning to hard in seats where they stand no chance. If the TPP was the criteria for government then campaigning would look very different. If you got equal points for behinds as goals, AFL would look very different.

Ditto USA. The republicans stand zero chance of winning California so don't bother campaigning there. Nor do they complain too much about the rampant cheating there since it makes no difference anyway. The results of the TPP there is immaterial.

"I don’t think that means The Economist (or Harris) will dispute the result if she loses...."

Well we'll see. Remember last time the Dems lost they complained bitterly, sought to subvert the Electoral College voting and launched a two year campaign to try to prove that the Russian had won the election for Trump when they knew that to be false and based on evidence that they themselves fabricated. They also started working on impeachment proceeding BEFORE he'd even taken office!! So let's see.

America's flawed democracy?

We've seen Trump's attempts to undermine a legit election.
We've seen him refuse to concede.
We've seen the making of false claims of fraud. We've seen
the fanning of the flames of conspiracy. The refusal to
certify any win by the other side. The 2020 election exposed
where American democracy was failing. It did not remain
unscathed.

The American voting system needs reform. The popular vote is how
most democracies hold elections. Not the US. The outcome is
decided by the electoral college. Their president is chosen
not by "we the people," but indirectly by 538
electors apportioned by state.

There's little chance of the electoral college being scrapped
any time soon. It would require a constitutional amendment
which is all but impossible in these partisan times. Historically
the electoral college was intended to insulate the presidency
from popular control.

There's many other problems that also play a part. However,
the scariest thing is - another election of Donald Trump -
under him - what we've witnessed thus far will
become standard Republican practice for future elections.
A man who refused to concede and will undoubtedly continue to
inflict fatal wounds on American democracy - if elected.

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Dear Foxy,

.

Yes, America’s kairos, its critical moment, is fast approaching. The choice is less a question of who to vote for, as it is what to vote for : democracy or autocracy, freedom or authoritarianism.

Americans stand at the crossroads. They must decide, by the 5th November, which route to take : the road paved with laws freely defined and accepted, or the iron railroad track of submission and obedience to the will of authority.

It is their choice, but is it a truly democratic choice ?

The electoral system is so designed, it is more than likely that the result of what is predominately a bi-partisan competition, will finally be determined by just 7 of the (mainly smaller) states among the 50 that constitute the nation.

The 7 states in question represent only 93 (17%) of the 538 members of the electoral college that elects the president.

Needless to say, if that is again the case, as it was in 2016, anybody not elected directly by the people, but by just 17% of the electoral college that is supposed to elect the president, can hardly be considered to have been “democratically” elected.

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Dear Banjo,

I'm hoping that Americans will cast aside authoritarianism.
That Trump will not get re-elected.

I'm also hoping that their flawed electoral system will
eventually be reformed. Although I don't see that happening
any time soon.

The question in my mind at the moment is - what will Trump
do if he loses?

Banjo Paterson,
If you want the same rights for all then a Govt should expect the same responsibilities from everyone.
As the latter is not so, the idea of Democracy goes out the window instantly !
The majority of Socialists are of a mentality not in tune with contributing only for demanding that others give !
so, Democracy is dead in the water there.
Working people know that it's impossible to continue as we've been going for the past 50 years.
It's up them to show the rest how to contribute & the only way to do that is by Symbiosis. Parasitism has reached the end of the road for the present so-called "Civilisations" !

Again making American democracy more flawed is one Donald Trump, who unfortunately is likely to win November 5th's Election:

"Does Donald Trump meet the definition of a fascist? His former chief of staff thinks so" reported neutral SBS on 24 October 2024 at http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/does-donald-trump-meet-the-definition-of-a-fascist-his-former-chief-of-staff-thinks-so/jokbhmwpf

"Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump meets the definition of a fascist and "prefers the dictator approach to government," his former White House chief of staff said in a series of interviews with the New York Times.

With less than two weeks until the 5 November US presidential election, [no leftwing "wimp" but a retired US Marine Corps general as well as Trump's former White House chief of staff] John Kelly [reported Trump] had no understanding of the US constitution or the concept of the rule of law.

Kelly said the former president would seek to rule like an authoritarian if he returned to the White House. In the interviews published on Tuesday, he quoted Trump as having told him German Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler "did some good things."

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Dear Indyvidual,

.

You wrote :

1. « If you want the same rights for all then a Govt should expect the same responsibilities from everyone »
.

Having reread all my posts on this thread, Indyvidual, I don’t see any mention of my “wanting” something. I don’t want anything.

Nor have I mentioned “the same rights for all”. The closest I can find is the phrase “… laws freely defined and accepted …” in my post to Foxy on page 3 of this thread.

As you know, laws are not just limited to rights, they also include obligations, constraints, limits, prohibitions, responsibilities, and punishments.
.

2. « … a Govt should expect the same responsibilities from everyone … »
.

That’s correct, Indyvidual. But, like everything else in this universe, nothing is perfect. Even nature often goes haywire. Responsible means “legally accountable for one's actions”. Mental disorders, alcohol and drugs are the most common factors that inhibit discernment and render people legally irresponsible for their actions. Poverty and utter destitution do not.

According to the National Institute of Mental Health, mental illnesses are common in the United States, affecting tens of millions of people each year. Another 65 million are alcoholics and 50 million are drug addicts.

A surprisingly extraordinary number of Americans appear to be willing to believe almost anything. Political ideologues and religious zealots included.

According to “Findings from the 2024 American Values Survey”, nearly one-third of Americans (31%) agree with the statement that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. That belief is shared by over 107 million Americans.
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3. « Working people know that it's impossible to continue as we've been going for the past 50 years »
.

Not just working people, Indyvidual. I think we all agree with that.

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"The 7 states in question represent only 93 (17%) of the 538 members of the electoral college that elects the president."

No let's get this straight...The US is a flawed democracy because a small number of seats ultimately determine the outcome.

But Australia has marginal seats and a small number of them ultimately determined the outcome. So obviously Australia is a flawed democracy.

And Britain has marginal seats...flawed democracy.
And Germany has marginal seats...flawed democracy.
And Italy....etc etc

You know who doesn't have marginal seats - Russia. All of their electorates vote overwhelmingly for the ruling party. So obviously they aren't a flawed democracy.

Honestly!!

"I'm hoping that Americans will cast aside authoritarianism. That Trump will not get re-elected."

Do you people remember that Trump was previously president? It was is all the papers. And decidedly not authoritarian. But for reasons that make sense only to those beyond reason, this time will be different.

I am constantly amazed at the ability of the MSM to peddle absolute bunkum that otherwise reasonably sane people fall for.

As America's newspaper of record has observed..."Democrats Explain Trump Was Going To Be Hitler During His First Term, But He Forgot".

Honestly!!

Can we compare Trump to Hitler?

Well, he hasn't engaged in the systematized slaughter
of a population or launched an effort to subjugate the world.

"But, as a number of his former top aides have said in
recent weeks, he views the constraints of democracy with
disdain and embraces an approach to power that checks the
boxes of fascism."

And according to his former Chief of Staff, John F. Kelly,
a retired 4-star general, Trump has also offered praise for
the German dictator and the way he managed his military.

There's more at:

http://washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/10/24/trump-kelly-hitler/

I don’t see any mention of my “wanting” something.
Banjo paterson,
It wasn't meant for you personally. The expectations of the general Public is to always point the finger at Govt and, they do "want" more than they're prepared to offer in return.
As Margaret Thatcher so aptly said "The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money".

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https://www.theccm.co.uk/bricklaying-course/

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Dear mhaze,

.

Thanks for your comment, mhaze. You raise an interesting point about the difference between the US Electoral College and the marginal seats in other electoral systems.

The US Electoral College is unique. It has no equivalent in any of the world’s other democratic countries.

Political parties did not exist when it was created in 1787. The drafters of the Constitution assumed that electors would vote according to their discretion, not the dictates of a state or national party. Today, most electors are bound to vote for their party’s candidate.

The assumption was that each elector’s vote would be counted. Over time, all but two states (Maine and Nebraska) passed laws to give all of their electoral votes to the candidate who won the state’s popular vote, erasing any semblance of individual elector independence.

There is no perfect electoral system, and I understand that the aim of our marginal seat and preferential voting processes is to produce electoral results as faithfully and as clearly and precisely as possible, based on the direct popular vote – which seems to me to be the major difference with the US electoral college system.

But, I don’t pretend to be an expert on such matters, mhaze, so please correct me if I am wrong.

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"But Australia has marginal seats" not anymore mhaze. What were once considered "safe" seats are now becoming more volatile for the 'Big Two' and they can no longer consider any seat "safe".

Something rather odd, with 2 weeks of pre-polling here in Queensland (today's the big day) I've got to know the 6 candidates running in my local seat. I see them nearly everyday as they are outside our hall (polling booth) up to 14 hours a day, badgering voters. The lads have become rather friendly with each other, One Nation cozying up to the Green, Labor and LNP sharing a coffee together etc etc, very strange, one big happy family. I even like Davo from the ON party, crazy as a cut snake, but a nice guy anyway. Chad from the LNP is actually a progressive liberal, and I like him also, make a good politician one day, the Green lady is nice, the incumbent Joan for Labor is very well known, and a terrific local member, regardless of the overall outcome she deserves to keep her job, and old James from FF is well known to me. However my vote went to "Little Buddha" the independent candidate.

The important thing today is we want to sell plenty of "Democracy Sausages" the real purpose of all this voting nonsense!