.

The US is rated by the Economist Intelligence Unit as a “flawed democracy” and has been for the past 8 years. It is “flawed” because Americans don’t seem to care much for democracy – rule by the people, for the people – because that’s not exactly the way it works.

The reality is "rule by the elite 10% of the population" who possess 70% of the nation’s wealth and the power to influence the political class to act in their favour.

And, as we saw in the 2016 presidential election, Hilary Clinton received nearly 3 million more votes than Donald Trump, but Trump won the election. The votes of 3 million Americans did not count because the president is not elected by the people. They only elect the members of an electoral college who, in turn, elect the president.

This complex, labyrinthine electoral system has so far rewarded 5 presidents who had lost the popular vote (Adams, Hayes, Harrison, G. W. Bush, & Trump).

According to a Pew Research poll last month, 63% of Americans would prefer the winner of the popular vote to be the president. But there are wide partisan differences :

- 80% of Democrats are for the popular vote

- 53% of Republicans are against & 46% for the popular vote

Democracy is on the wane throughout the world.

Trump or Harris, the battle of the gods (the Titans, the older generation of gods, against the Olympians, the younger generation) is about to begin.

Which one will the fountain bless ?

.

Hi Banjo

The Economist Intelligence Unit rates the USA as a flawed democracy, but this is not because of "rule by the elite 10% of the population". Nor is it because it sometimes does not deliver government to the party or presidential candidate with the most votes – all voting systems based on geographical constituencies sometimes do this, including ours (in 1988 Labor won 51% of the vote after preferences but still didn’t win government).

The reason the USA has slipped from being categorised a “full democracy” to a “flawed democracy” since 2016 is mainly due to a decline in political culture and the functioning of government. Americans don’t trust elected officials and see them as corrupt. The electorate is highly polarised and support for democracy has eroded.

You can read The Economist’s article here (it’s behind a paywall, but non-subscribers get limited access).

http://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2024/03/21/why-america-is-a-flawed-democracy

This is particular worrying because we seem to be heading in the same direction, though we are not yet so far down the track and rate comparatively well. Australia is ranked as a “full democracy”, but its rating has slipped in recent years.

.

Dear Rhian,

.

Thank you for your comment.

Yes, I am aware of the Economist Intelligence Unit's political culture explanation for classifying the US as a “flawed democracy.”

The American political scientists Gabriel Almond and Sydney Verba identified three types of political culture in their 1963 treatise :

1. parochial, in which citizens have neither knowledge of nor interest in politics and are only indistinctly aware of the existence of a central government

2. subject, in which citizens largely obey but participate little, seeing themselves not as participants in the political process but as subjects of the government

3. participant, in which citizens understand and take part in politics and voluntary associations

It seems to me that Almond and Verba’s core idea was that a “full democracy” is a society where subject and parochial attitudes provide ballast to an essentially participant culture.

The evolution of the political culture in the US over the past 8 years has seen a drastic reduction in participant culture to the extent that democracy is no longer “rule by the people, for the people”.

Political power has been monopolised by a small elite who control the economy and exercise a large and important influence on society in general.

American democracy has been downgraded to "rule by the elite 10% of the population" who possess 70% of the nation’s wealth and the power to influence the political class to act in their favour, and not necessarily in the public interest.

.

I would not describe America as a "Flawed Democracy", rather its an "Illusion Democracy", where the democratic process is controlled by a privileged power elite for their benefit, and our of course, that goes without saying. This power elite allows a pretence of democracy to operate in narrow confines, where subservient politicians, and only subservient politicians, tinker around to give an illusion that there is some kind of democratic process at work for the common good. Common good, how ridiculous, who thought that nonsense up. If the people ever demand (a nasty word in some peoples book) true democracy then the power elite will have their military forces take care of that terrible kind of insurrection! How dare the people think they deserve to run the democratic process, the power elite tell us they are doing a perfectly good job at it, an it does not require interference by the riff-raff or their mates the great unwashed! Same applies in Australia.

"(in 1988 Labor won 51% of the vote after preferences but still didn’t win government)."

Wrong:

* there was no federal election in 1988.
* you're thinking of the 1990 election.
* but you got the winners the wrong way around
* the Liberals won the TPP vote 50.1% to 49.9% but Labor held onto power because of a strategy of targeting marginal seats and also due to a gerrymander against the Liberal electorates.
* that is, they realised that winning the majority of the seats was the game not winning the majority of the votes.

Ditto USA.

On TV the other night,

Elbridge Gerry a founding father of American democracy and Governor of Massachusetts, ha ha, having drawn the district boundaries in the state, one resembling a grotesque salamander, which was designed to see to it that dear old Elbridge's Federalist Party retained power, his action eventually become known as the gerrymander!

Democracy is flawed ! Anything that puts the minorities ahead majorities is a recipe for dysfunction ! We witness this happening now in real time !
It's just that the stupid can't see it !

.

Dear Rhian,

.

Oops, sorry ! That was a typing mistake. I meant to type 1888, not 1988.

Republican Benjamin Harrison defeated Democratic incumbent Grover Cleveland, winning the electoral college vote 233–168 despite losing the popular vote, which Cleveland won with 5,540,309 votes against Harrison’s 5,439,853 votes.

My apologies.

.

Oh-o. It looks like Trump stands a chance of winning the election.

Well the reliably left leaning Economist has to get its ducks in a row to try to show how that wasn't a valid win. If, on the other hand, Kamala gets up, we can be sure the Economist and the rest of the left leaning MSM (is there any other type?) will assure us it was a victory for true democracy.

Pretty much every democracy has a system that allows for the possibility of people winning even though they didn't get a majority of the vote. Australia in 1990. And don't even mention the Senate where some states get votes valued at over 10 times those of others.

Britain likewise has had its examples given that the first-past-the-post system is almost designed to allow victories with less than 50% support. And again, the House of Lords?

What the Economist is really complaining of is that the US might vote for policies it (the Economist) dislikes and that is, to their thinking, definitionally undemocratic.

There is no perfect democracy. Setting up a series of idealistic criteria and denouncing failure to meet those criteria as proof that this or that jurisdiction isn't democratic is flawed thinking.

Athens didn't allow women the vote. Not democratic
Rome had an unelected Senate - Not democratic.
Australia's Senate
Britain's Lords.
The Electoral College.

There is no such thing as a perfect democracy. Never will be in the real world.

BTW, strictly speaking the US doesn't claim to be a democracy. Its a Federal Republic where the competing interests of the states are resolved in a peaceful and agreed upon fashion. And in that regards its been an exemplar for the world, including this country.

.

Dear Paul1405,

.

Yes, Elbridge Gerry was one of America’s remarkable politicians and certainly left his mark on the political vocabulary.

.

Oh-o. It looks like Trump stands a chance of winning the election.
mhaze,
That'd be a worry for the non-productive. Just like here if Dutton gets elected. What the non-productive don't seem to grasp is that people are getting fed up with working & paying taxes to feed the former.
Parasitism only lasts as long as the contents of the coffers !

Dear Banjo and Mhaze

I must offer my own “oops sorry” too - I should have typed 1998 not 1988.

Mhaze

As an ex-pom I know all too well how the constituency system in the UK can result in the election of governments most people don’t want. The problem is far worse there because of the first-past-the-post system, whereas our preference system does tend to even things out so the least unpopular party usually wins, and also means that minor parties get more reasonable representation.

I agree that every system has its flaws, and there is no perfect democracy.

In the USA, The Economist is currently predicting that Trump is most likely to win even though Harris has more popular support, because Trump is ahead in the swing states that will almost certainly determine the outcome. I don’t think that means The Economist (or Harris) will dispute the result if she loses – unlike Trump, both Harris and The Economist respect the system, or at least realise that not abiding by its results is a very bad idea.

Rhian,

Yes I'd forgotten about the 1998 election. So two with 8 years where the winner of the TPP didn't win government.

The thing is this. The aim is to win seats, so parties will not bother campaigning to hard in seats where they stand no chance. If the TPP was the criteria for government then campaigning would look very different. If you got equal points for behinds as goals, AFL would look very different.

Ditto USA. The republicans stand zero chance of winning California so don't bother campaigning there. Nor do they complain too much about the rampant cheating there since it makes no difference anyway. The results of the TPP there is immaterial.

"I don’t think that means The Economist (or Harris) will dispute the result if she loses...."

Well we'll see. Remember last time the Dems lost they complained bitterly, sought to subvert the Electoral College voting and launched a two year campaign to try to prove that the Russian had won the election for Trump when they knew that to be false and based on evidence that they themselves fabricated. They also started working on impeachment proceeding BEFORE he'd even taken office!! So let's see.

America's flawed democracy?

We've seen Trump's attempts to undermine a legit election.
We've seen him refuse to concede.
We've seen the making of false claims of fraud. We've seen
the fanning of the flames of conspiracy. The refusal to
certify any win by the other side. The 2020 election exposed
where American democracy was failing. It did not remain
unscathed.

The American voting system needs reform. The popular vote is how
most democracies hold elections. Not the US. The outcome is
decided by the electoral college. Their president is chosen
not by "we the people," but indirectly by 538
electors apportioned by state.

There's little chance of the electoral college being scrapped
any time soon. It would require a constitutional amendment
which is all but impossible in these partisan times. Historically
the electoral college was intended to insulate the presidency
from popular control.

There's many other problems that also play a part. However,
the scariest thing is - another election of Donald Trump -
under him - what we've witnessed thus far will
become standard Republican practice for future elections.
A man who refused to concede and will undoubtedly continue to
inflict fatal wounds on American democracy - if elected.

.

Dear Foxy,

.

Yes, America’s kairos, its critical moment, is fast approaching. The choice is less a question of who to vote for, as it is what to vote for : democracy or autocracy, freedom or authoritarianism.

Americans stand at the crossroads. They must decide, by the 5th November, which route to take : the road paved with laws freely defined and accepted, or the iron railroad track of submission and obedience to the will of authority.

It is their choice, but is it a truly democratic choice ?

The electoral system is so designed, it is more than likely that the result of what is predominately a bi-partisan competition, will finally be determined by just 7 of the (mainly smaller) states among the 50 that constitute the nation.

The 7 states in question represent only 93 (17%) of the 538 members of the electoral college that elects the president.

Needless to say, if that is again the case, as it was in 2016, anybody not elected directly by the people, but by just 17% of the electoral college that is supposed to elect the president, can hardly be considered to have been “democratically” elected.

.

Dear Banjo,

I'm hoping that Americans will cast aside authoritarianism.
That Trump will not get re-elected.

I'm also hoping that their flawed electoral system will
eventually be reformed. Although I don't see that happening
any time soon.

The question in my mind at the moment is - what will Trump
do if he loses?

Banjo Paterson,
If you want the same rights for all then a Govt should expect the same responsibilities from everyone.
As the latter is not so, the idea of Democracy goes out the window instantly !
The majority of Socialists are of a mentality not in tune with contributing only for demanding that others give !
so, Democracy is dead in the water there.
Working people know that it's impossible to continue as we've been going for the past 50 years.
It's up them to show the rest how to contribute & the only way to do that is by Symbiosis. Parasitism has reached the end of the road for the present so-called "Civilisations" !

Again making American democracy more flawed is one Donald Trump, who unfortunately is likely to win November 5th's Election:

"Does Donald Trump meet the definition of a fascist? His former chief of staff thinks so" reported neutral SBS on 24 October 2024 at http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/does-donald-trump-meet-the-definition-of-a-fascist-his-former-chief-of-staff-thinks-so/jokbhmwpf

"Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump meets the definition of a fascist and "prefers the dictator approach to government," his former White House chief of staff said in a series of interviews with the New York Times.

With less than two weeks until the 5 November US presidential election, [no leftwing "wimp" but a retired US Marine Corps general as well as Trump's former White House chief of staff] John Kelly [reported Trump] had no understanding of the US constitution or the concept of the rule of law.

Kelly said the former president would seek to rule like an authoritarian if he returned to the White House. In the interviews published on Tuesday, he quoted Trump as having told him German Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler "did some good things."

.

Dear Indyvidual,

.

You wrote :

1. « If you want the same rights for all then a Govt should expect the same responsibilities from everyone »
.

Having reread all my posts on this thread, Indyvidual, I don’t see any mention of my “wanting” something. I don’t want anything.

Nor have I mentioned “the same rights for all”. The closest I can find is the phrase “… laws freely defined and accepted …” in my post to Foxy on page 3 of this thread.

As you know, laws are not just limited to rights, they also include obligations, constraints, limits, prohibitions, responsibilities, and punishments.
.

2. « … a Govt should expect the same responsibilities from everyone … »
.

That’s correct, Indyvidual. But, like everything else in this universe, nothing is perfect. Even nature often goes haywire. Responsible means “legally accountable for one's actions”. Mental disorders, alcohol and drugs are the most common factors that inhibit discernment and render people legally irresponsible for their actions. Poverty and utter destitution do not.

According to the National Institute of Mental Health, mental illnesses are common in the United States, affecting tens of millions of people each year. Another 65 million are alcoholics and 50 million are drug addicts.

A surprisingly extraordinary number of Americans appear to be willing to believe almost anything. Political ideologues and religious zealots included.

According to “Findings from the 2024 American Values Survey”, nearly one-third of Americans (31%) agree with the statement that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. That belief is shared by over 107 million Americans.
.

3. « Working people know that it's impossible to continue as we've been going for the past 50 years »
.

Not just working people, Indyvidual. I think we all agree with that.

.

"The 7 states in question represent only 93 (17%) of the 538 members of the electoral college that elects the president."

No let's get this straight...The US is a flawed democracy because a small number of seats ultimately determine the outcome.

But Australia has marginal seats and a small number of them ultimately determined the outcome. So obviously Australia is a flawed democracy.

And Britain has marginal seats...flawed democracy.
And Germany has marginal seats...flawed democracy.
And Italy....etc etc

You know who doesn't have marginal seats - Russia. All of their electorates vote overwhelmingly for the ruling party. So obviously they aren't a flawed democracy.

Honestly!!

"I'm hoping that Americans will cast aside authoritarianism. That Trump will not get re-elected."

Do you people remember that Trump was previously president? It was is all the papers. And decidedly not authoritarian. But for reasons that make sense only to those beyond reason, this time will be different.

I am constantly amazed at the ability of the MSM to peddle absolute bunkum that otherwise reasonably sane people fall for.

As America's newspaper of record has observed..."Democrats Explain Trump Was Going To Be Hitler During His First Term, But He Forgot".

Honestly!!

Can we compare Trump to Hitler?

Well, he hasn't engaged in the systematized slaughter
of a population or launched an effort to subjugate the world.

"But, as a number of his former top aides have said in
recent weeks, he views the constraints of democracy with
disdain and embraces an approach to power that checks the
boxes of fascism."

And according to his former Chief of Staff, John F. Kelly,
a retired 4-star general, Trump has also offered praise for
the German dictator and the way he managed his military.

There's more at:

http://washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/10/24/trump-kelly-hitler/

I don’t see any mention of my “wanting” something.
Banjo paterson,
It wasn't meant for you personally. The expectations of the general Public is to always point the finger at Govt and, they do "want" more than they're prepared to offer in return.
As Margaret Thatcher so aptly said "The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money".

.

Dear mhaze,

.

Thanks for your comment, mhaze. You raise an interesting point about the difference between the US Electoral College and the marginal seats in other electoral systems.

The US Electoral College is unique. It has no equivalent in any of the world’s other democratic countries.

Political parties did not exist when it was created in 1787. The drafters of the Constitution assumed that electors would vote according to their discretion, not the dictates of a state or national party. Today, most electors are bound to vote for their party’s candidate.

The assumption was that each elector’s vote would be counted. Over time, all but two states (Maine and Nebraska) passed laws to give all of their electoral votes to the candidate who won the state’s popular vote, erasing any semblance of individual elector independence.

There is no perfect electoral system, and I understand that the aim of our marginal seat and preferential voting processes is to produce electoral results as faithfully and as clearly and precisely as possible, based on the direct popular vote – which seems to me to be the major difference with the US electoral college system.

But, I don’t pretend to be an expert on such matters, mhaze, so please correct me if I am wrong.

.

"But Australia has marginal seats" not anymore mhaze. What were once considered "safe" seats are now becoming more volatile for the 'Big Two' and they can no longer consider any seat "safe".

Something rather odd, with 2 weeks of pre-polling here in Queensland (today's the big day) I've got to know the 6 candidates running in my local seat. I see them nearly everyday as they are outside our hall (polling booth) up to 14 hours a day, badgering voters. The lads have become rather friendly with each other, One Nation cozying up to the Green, Labor and LNP sharing a coffee together etc etc, very strange, one big happy family. I even like Davo from the ON party, crazy as a cut snake, but a nice guy anyway. Chad from the LNP is actually a progressive liberal, and I like him also, make a good politician one day, the Green lady is nice, the incumbent Joan for Labor is very well known, and a terrific local member, regardless of the overall outcome she deserves to keep her job, and old James from FF is well known to me. However my vote went to "Little Buddha" the independent candidate.

The important thing today is we want to sell plenty of "Democracy Sausages" the real purpose of all this voting nonsense!

Guess what folks: pointless waffling about America doesn't hide the awful problems of our own "flawed democracy". It's just another way of putting your heads in the sand.

Only American citizens can do a damn thing about America. I doubt that Australians will do much to improve their own country at the next election.

Two parties not much different from each other, and most voters too afraid to try something different by voting for the four optional parties in the Senate: Family First, One Nation, United Australia, and the Libertarians. Anything but Labor/Liberal/Green.

You could vote the same way in the lower house, but that would be too daring I suppose. But, try to do something about your own country, and leave Americans to sort theirs out. I doubt that many of them would be bothering themselves with Australia.

"And according to his former Chief of Staff, John F. Kelly,..."

Yes Foxy, this is exactly the type of story that you regularly and habitually fall for. If you could join us in the real world for a moment consider this...

Kelly worked for Trump for two years. No one else in the room when Trump allegedly made these comments recalls hearing them. Kelly didn't mention it to anyone else. If he had any integrity and if the story was true, he should have immediately resigned and bought it to the attention of the nation. But he continued working for Trump until his incompetence was such that Trump sacked him. Kelly has pursued a vendetta ever since. But even then he didn't raise this story. Not during the 2020 election. Not any time since. Then he raises it 12 days out from an election.

So a man of integrity? Well the usual useful idiots will fall for it.

Every Republican leader is called Hitler. Even Eisenhower who literally defeated Hitler was called Hitler when he ran as a Republican. Nixon of course was Hitler. Reagan as well. Literally every Republican presidential candidate for the past 60 years. And not just presidential candidates. Dick Cheney, who the Democrats now love, was Himmler. Paul Ryan was Goebbels.

And the useful idiots fall for it every time.

Here's a prediction you can take to the bank. Once Trump moves on, he will cease to be Hitler. But whoever takes his place, will magically become Hitler.

Banjo Paterson,

Don't get me wrong. The US is a flawed democracy. Just not for any of the reasons you raised.

It is flawed because the Democrats have utterly bastardised the system to allow them to cheat on a monumental scale. They have allowed for virtually unlimited mail-in voting accompanied by reduced to no checking of the validity of such votes. They have allowed people to vote without the need to prove they are citizens. Indeed in California it is now illegal to ask a voter or someone seeking to register as a voter for any proof.

Just today we hear that Pennsylvania found 2500 illegals seeking to register and vote while an unknown number succeeded. Michigan found 300,000 invalid names on their rolls and when they tried to remove those names, they were sued by Washington and forced to leave them on the rolls. Let that sink in.

We have seen jurisdictions that have more names on their voter rolls than actual voters. And that is allowed to continue. We have houses or even vacant lots that have thousands of names registered as being their official address.

Counting is a mess. Many places don't even have paper ballots but require people to vote on computer. In this election, they've already found instances of computers reversing a Trump vote and giving it to Harris.

And that is all before we have systems that are so opaque that boxes of pre-filled ballots get trucked in in the middle of the night and added to the official count.

Trump will win the voting this election, just as he did in 2020. But he will lose the count. Just as he did in 2020.

And at that point the US democracy will cease to exist.

.

Dear mhaze,

.

Unfortunately, as you have not indicated the source of your information, I have had to do my own fact-checking.

But first, perhaps I should add that America’s flawed democracy that allowed four of the five past presidents to be elected despite having lost the popular vote, were all members of the Republican Party. The fifth one, John Adams, who was elected the 2nd president of the US in 1796, was a member of the Federalist Party that was opposed to what, many years later, became known as the Democratic Party.

As regards the Pennsylvania affaire you mention, I see that the Lancaster County Commissioner Ray D’Agostino, a Republican who chairs the election board, said at a news conference that the 2500 fraudulent voter registration applications were not limited to a single party and that they had been collected at various spots in Republican-majority Lancaster. He did not say which parties were involved and the state attorney general's office declined to comment.

You also write that “Michigan found 300,000 invalid names on their rolls and when they tried to remove those names, they were sued by Washington and forced to leave them on the rolls”.

The Associated Press did some fact-checking on that and explained in an article dated 23 October 2024 :

« This is missing context. While the state does have more total voter registrations than eligible voters, that number includes voters who are inactive but cannot yet be removed from voter rolls under federal and state laws. The number of active voters is far less than those who are eligible to vote, and experts say there is no reason to believe that widespread fraud will result.

« Still, numerous social media users have suggested these numbers are proof that Michigan is trying to cheat in the 2024 election. Among them is billionaire X owner Elon Musk ... » :

http://apnews.com/article/michigan-voter-rolls-fraud-fact-check-misinformation-3075e2cb1f7d69c27a5181a7e4ea7251

.

(Continued …)

.

.

(Continued …)

.

You conclude that Trump will win the election, and American democracy will cease to exist.

If that’s what the Americans choose, mhaze, I hope they do it peacefully.

During the 1930s, the combination of the Great Depression and the memory of the tragic losses in World War I contributed to pushing the Americans to choose isolationism.

In his Farewell Address in 1796, President George Washington advocated non-involvement in European wars and politics.

So, if Trump decides to close his borders and the free world finds itself without its protector once again, we in Australia might sadly end up, this time, having to sing the Chinese national anthem.

.

Banjo Paterson,

Again you make this assertion that the US democracy is flawed because it sometimes allows presidents to win with a minority of the vote, yet continue to ignore the fact that this is also the case in almost all democracies -see above. If the US democracy is flawed due to this, then all democracies are flawed which hardly gets us anywhere.

On the Pennsylvania 2500 registrations, I made no comment about the affiliations of those applying. It hardly matters. The point was that it is symbolic of the shambles that the US voter rolls have become.

Equally with the Michigan 300,000, this is an example, (and just one example) of how the Democrats have allowed the rolls to become a mess which in turns facilitates cheating. And even when the state authorities make efforts to fix it, the Dept of Justice, utterly beholden to the Democrats, squashes those efforts. If this were happening in some sh!thole African nation, the UN would be calling the elections undemocratic.

"You conclude that Trump will win the election, and American democracy will cease to exist"

That's not at all what I said. I think he will win based on the legitimate votes and lose when the illegitimate votes are added in. He is unlikely to win. And that will be the end of the US democracy.

If the Democrats win based on their cheating and control of the vast majority of the levers of power - the media, the universities, the bureaucracy (DOJ, FBI. CIA) - they will be utterly emboldened to cement their permanent control. Even more illegals will pour in and they will be given accelerated citizenship giving the Democrats a permanent electoral majority. The Supreme Court will be stacked to smooth these measures. The filibuster will be removed to stop any resistance. Electoral laws will be changed to legitimise cheating.

A permanent Democrat government. The end of democracy.

Just on Trump as Hitler - a voice of reason and despair...

http://tiny.cc/pc7szz

Of course Kamala needs help from all sorts of places to cheat her way over the line...

http://tiny.cc/uc7szz

OTOH, almost every day brings more cheery news of Trump increasing his lead over Kamala and that he might be getting to the point where he is outside the margin of cheating.

That is, he might be close to the point where even Democrat monumental cheating won't garner sufficient illegitimate votes to overcome his lead.

As I've explained in other threads, the polls are almost all biased against Trump and, as in 2016 and 2020, are under-estimating his support. But by how much remains unclear.

But every day shows new polling that indicates the momentum is all moving in Trump's direction and that the Democrats are panicking. Bill Clinton seems to have already given up and is working to secure his position in a post-election Democrat upheaval.

Way back in January of this year I predicted that Biden wouldn't be allowed to run and that he'd be replaced by Michelle Obama. I got that half right. But now we're seeing Democrat operatives lamenting not installing Michelle over Kamala as she, Kamala, implodes.

Can we compare Trump to Hitler?

1) Donald Trump is certainly a political leader whose
popularity is driven by personality more than detailed
policy proposals.

2) Donald Trump is someone who casts a segment of the
population as dangerous and demands they be rounded up
and deported.

3) He's a leader who responds to losing an election by
working to overturn the election results. Spreading
false claims, and stoking anger that culminated
in an attack on the country's legislature.

4) Trump is a leader who wants to take action on the
"enemy within".

5) He's a leader who's endorsed the idea of replacing
a non-partisan governmental bureaucracy with loyalists.

6) He's someone who regards the press as dishonest.
Describes his political opponents as enemies. Worse than
foreign adversaries and is surrounded by voices that
amplify and cheer his most extreme rhetoric.

7) According to Trump's top advisers - Trump views
the constraints of democracy with disdain
and embraces an approach to power that checks the boxes
of fascism.

8) Trump's
former Chief of Staff - John F. Kelly a 4-star general -
- has said that Trump has also
offered praise for the German dictator and the way he
managed his military.

This is the article Foxy lifted most of her last post from....
http://tiny.cc/yu8szz

From the Washington Post. They keep pushing the Hitler rubbish and their clueless readers still keep falling for it.

Hilariously even they don't believe it. The Washington Post has regularly endorsed one or other candidate each presidential year and because they are a far left paper they normally endorse whoever the Democrats put up.

But Kamala is so bad that they've now decided to not endorse anyone this year. Get it? They're basically saying Trump is Hitler and Kamala is no better!! That'll probably go over Foxy's head.

How bad is she? watch this... http://tiny.cc/kv8szz (with the swipe of my pen I could ruin people's lives) Tell me about Hitler again.

______________________________________________________________________

More on the Democrat's efforts to corrupt the voting. 1500 people on the rolls in Virginia self-identified as non-citizens. The state tried to remove them from the rolls but the Biden government is forcing them to leave them on the rolls

Trump has also
offered praise for the German dictator and the way he
managed his military.
Foxy,
do you think Hitler could have gotten the support that he did get if he didn't manage the Military as he did ?
Trump did not "praise" Hitler, he stated that Hitler managed well enough to gain the support he got !

.

Dear mhaze,

.

You seem to blame the Democrats for all the political woes of America. I don’t recall your having mentioned anything the Republicans might have done that warrants your displeasure.

As I observed in one of my previous posts, mhaze, nothing in this universe is perfect, not even nature, and there is no perfect electoral system.

Since George Washington became the first president of the United States in 1789, there have been 19 Republican presidents and 17 Democratic presidents.

Even if the Democrats got everything wrong, the Republicans have had ample opportunity to correct them.

If things are still not working as they should, it affects both parties simultaneously and alternatively. The swings and balances work both ways indiscriminately.

A regrettable result of the 2024 presidential election is the hate and anger that has been stirred up by Trump. His version of Pat Buchanan’s 1992 “Make America First Again” has had the antagonistic effect of dividing the country instead of uniting it.

He hasn't been elected president yet, but he has already done a lot of irreparable damage.

.

.

And, of course, his version of Ronald Reagan’s famous political slogan in the 1980 presidential campaign : “Make America Great Again” (MAGA)

.

Dear Banjo,

Last night I watched - "The Choice 2024: Harris vs. Trump"
which SBS showed. It was billed as "an interwoven
investigative biography of both major party candidates."

The differences between Harris and Trump are stark and
frightening to say the least.

"Make America Great Again?" No. under Trump it will be -
"Make America Hate Again."

Unfortunately.

It's America's choice.

Hopefully rationality will prevail in the end.

"You seem to blame the Democrats for all the political woes of America."

We were talking about electoral malpractice and that's all, in my view and many others, down to recent Democrat leadership. Although in the past there were murmurs of relatively small scale cheating in national elections - eg the JFK win in 1960 - most electoral cheating occurred on the state, city and county levels with both sides being guilty. But that changed in 2012 when Obama bought Chicago style cheating to the national stage. It grew in 2016 and became rampant in 2020 when the Democrats decided that all bets were off in regards to getting rid of OrangeMaBad.

As I've said I think their cheating this year will get the worst candidate ever put forth over the line.

"A regrettable result of the 2024 presidential election is the hate and anger that has been stirred up by Trump. "

The hate that divides that nation didn't originate with Trump. He is a symptom not a cause. Remember how Obama sought to destroy his opponents rather than bring them in with talk of knuckle draggers and gun clingers or the way Hilary denigrated half the population with her deplorables antics. Remember those things? Probably not.

"Ronald Reagan’s famous political slogan in the 1980 presidential campaign : “Make America Great Again” (MAGA)"

It wasn't a Reagan slogan although he did use the phrase in speeches during the 1980 campaign. Bill Clinton also used it in 1992 and Hilary in 2008. But I guess it was okey-dokey when they said it because ....reasons.

Donald Trump was not the first presidential candidate
to want to "Make America Great Again". Ronald
Reagan's successful 1980 campaign led with the same
pledge (Let's Make America Great Again).

According to Wikipedia - "It's since been described
as a loaded phrase". We're told that - "Multiple
scholars, journalists, and commentators have called
the slogan racist, regarding it as dog-whistle politics
and coded language".

Here's more information on the MAGA movement in the US:

http://britannica.com/topic/MAGA-movement

Hitler Schmitler.

Trump's the kinda joker the American (WHITE) master race can rely on.

And woman lurv him too. Love to be "grabbed".

Just ask loyal wifesy Melania and true love Stormy http://youtu.be/Qd-W3tUnHY4?si=Ft6nosJlp5YABR2O

Hopefully rationality will prevail in the end.
Foxy,
It's starting to look that way !

.

It would be even better if it prevailed right from the start, Indyvidual !

.

.

Dear mhaze,

.

Thanks for that list of cheating in national elections. I notice it’s a fairly short list of cheating committed exclusively by the Democrats – even though it goes back 64 years to JFK in 1960.

I guess that compiling a similar catalogue of cheating committed by the Republicans during the same period would be another matter – particularly since Trump has come on board.

That reminds me that in commenting on my reference to “the hate and anger that has been stirred up by Trump”, you note : “the hate that divides that nation didn't originate with Trump”.

I was not suggesting that it did, mhaze. By “stirred up” I didn’t mean that he lit the fire, but that he fanned the flames – whereas one might normally expect any reasonable person, let alone a would-be president of the United States, to at least appease them if not extinguish the fire completely.

Trump is playing with fire, mhaze, and I’m afraid that does not augur well for his future presidency if ever he is elected.

.

.

Republicans called it election 'cheating' in 2020. Now they’re doing it in Washington :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_kaq2r8TZA

.

According to Wikipedia - "It's since been described
as a loaded phrase". We're told that - "Multiple
scholars, journalists, and commentators have called
the slogan [MAGA} racist, regarding it as dog-whistle politics
and coded language".

I wonder if it was racist when Bill Clinton used it.
I wonder if it was racist when Hilary said it.

Well obviously not because....well just because.

This is what passes for logical and educated thinking in certain circles.

More on Trump as Hitler.....
The Media and Democrats (but I repeat myself!) have been calling Trump's rally at Madison Square Garden a Nazi rally because the Nazis also had a rally there in 1939. Somehow they managed to forget that Bill Clinton had a rally there also. And they managed to forget that Hilary had a rally there also. And they managed to forget that the Obamessiah had a rally there as well.

(you don't have to have selective memory to be anti-Trump....but it helps.)

As to it being a Nazi rally, guest speakers included a Jew, an African-American, an Asian and a Mexican. And we can all remember how Hitler was fond of having Jewish, Asian and black speakers at his rallies.

Just to add a degree of hilarity to the whole sorry saga of Trump as Hitler, this hits the spot...http://tiny.cc/axiszz (wait for the final word from Hitler)

"Donald Trump" does not exist. He's a character and a
symbol who's viewed as being much more than a mortal
by his MAGA cultists.

In that role Trump is permission for revenge, craven
power, and permission for them to engage in the worst
human behaviour, Trump imagines himself in those terms.
He's a professional "fighter", a type of god and messiah,
a "billionaire" and "titan" of business, a "genius" who
is never wrong and has amazing genes. An "Action Hero",
"Movie Star", a virile and potent conqueror and seducer
of women and an idol for men.

A reality TV star and now a warlord and aspiring dictator
who is the only person who can "save America".

Donald Trump views American politics and his role as a TV
program where he is the star, casting agent and producer.

He may not be Hitler. But as a German newspaper
proclaimed - he definitely is a "horror clown".

One of the best things about Donald Trump is that he is not a member of the political establishment. He says what he thinks. There is no pre-prepared political bumf. He has a sense of humour. He is not addled by alcohol. He is honest and entertaining. He has a sensible approach to tariffs (none of that free trade nonsense). He will not allow the "enemy" to to come in and "take our jobs and take our factories and take our workers and take our families unless they pay a big price. And the big price is tariffs". He thinks windmills are "gross and dystopian". He hates them.

One of the few drawbacks of the Westminster system is that it doesn't cater for the possibility of electing a non-politician to lead Australia out of the current insanity and worsening economic conditions it is suffering from, and will continue to suffer from, under career politicians who haven't had a proper job.

Why is it that those of a certain leaning always assume and actively state that their opponents are being divisive.

The problem is that they are so full of their own virtue and cognisance that they assume the other side must be opposing them for nefarious reasons.

If only Trump would agree with us we could all get along. It never occurs that if only they'd get along with him there'd be no divisiveness.

Trump has at least 50% of the electorate with him so he's obviously not dividing them. The problem is that the other side, the TDS crowd and the never-Trumpers and aunti-facists etc not only disagree with him but violently do so. Consequently we see multiple assassination attempts and completely moronic and outrageous wishes from people like Foxy who wished he got shot in the neck rather than the ear.

Trump wants to deport enormous numbers of illegals and we're told by the virtue signallers that this is divisive. Yet 2/3rds of the electorate want that as well. So who is divisive? (BTW one of those illegals shot a Jew in cold blood today while yelling to his god. I thought I'd mention it because the media that Banjo and Foxy frequent will suppress it.)

But it seems the truth is starting to get through. Just today we found Bezos telling his Washington Post staff that they need to start being less biased if they expect to regain the support of the people. This after a new survey showed journalists in the USA to be the most despised of all institutions - even lower than politicians if you can believe it.

Trumpster,

Other than a casual interest at the outcome I will not be shocked or dismayed regardless of who should win. I see the US, irrespective of who should be the Ll Duce for the time being, as a great danger to world peace and economic stability, as they have been for the past 70 years. I might like to see Harris win, just for the fun of watching the Trumpsters, that could be YOU, run amok around Washington again in January. Have you dusted off your buffalo horn outfit, and got ya red, white and blue face paint ready?

.

Dear mhaze & ttbn,

.

I understand your point of view which, on the face of it, sounds reasonable. I’m sure a lot of well-intentioned people preparing to vote for Trump think likewise.

Even though some may be a little hesitant, based on his previous presidency they think they know what to expect.

Unfortunately, they do not fully measure the importance of the severe narcissistic collapse Trump suffered when he failed to be re-elected in 2020. His neural defence system triggered a protective wall around his ego and he has lived in a reality of his own invention ever since.

He subsequently managed to brainwash a cohort of weirdos, as a guru influences his loyal and devoted disciples, into adopting his unique, warped version of reality. Enflamed by his rhetoric, they stormed the Capitol and caused havoc.

Perhaps his experience as host of the TV reality show on NBC, “The Apprentice” helped him improve and develop his natural charisma and communication skills.

His next victims were the Republican members of the US Senate. Having finally arrived at a long and extremely difficult bipartisan agreement with the Democrats on a border security bill, the Republican senators were obliged to torpedo it under pressure from Trump.

He wanted to keep the problem on the burner so that he could attack the Democrats during the presidential election.

For the past 4 years, Trump has been totally obsessed by the thought that he won the 2020 election and that it was stolen from him. He has built a power base of ill-informed and dis-informed disciples who obey him without question and he has gained full control of the Republican party.

He has survived two assassination attempts and is out to get his revenge.

Despite that, his niece, Mary Trump, a psychologist by profession, has written a book in which she describes her uncle as “the world’s most dangerous man” and “a serial fraud”.

Trump describes his critics (including former aides at the White House) as “the enemy within” and threatens military intervention to quell domestic unrest.

The American voters are duly warned.

.

"horror clown"
Foxy,
Is that paper still going ? That's not the gist from Germans who I speak with !

Dear Banjo,

Last night I watched the documentary on SBS -
"Stopping the Steal".

It ran for 1 hour 26 minutes.

Former White House staff and appointees shared their
accounts of when former US president Donald Trump
tried to challenge the results of the 2020 US
presidential election.

It was chilling stuff. And as you point out - American
voters have been duly warned. The man is not about to
change.

He should be in jail or in a mental institution getting
the help he needs.

America cannot have a man as president who does not understand
or respect the Constitution. A person like that should not be
running for office. Running a country does not equate to
running a TV show. He should never have been allowed to run
for office in the first place.

" I notice it’s a fairly short list of cheating committed exclusively by the Democrats..."

Yep, I'm not aware of any evidence of cheating in the national elections by others although it might be there. I'm sure you've looked!

"He subsequently managed to brainwash a cohort of weirdos,..."

Weirdos? Gun clingers. Deplorables. Now weirdos. I can't imagine why there's so much divisiveness. Its a real mystery.

BTW, here's one of those weirdos....http://tiny.cc/i8oszz. Praying in the capital...how weird is that!!

"Republican senators were obliged to torpedo it under pressure from Trump...."

You completely misrepresent (or perhaps misunderstand) that bill. It wasn't bipartisan although some RINO Republicans did sign up. It was torpedoed because it was a bad bill that would have let 2 million illegals into the country each years before the government even bothered to lift a finger to reduce the flow.

" He has built a power base of ill-informed and dis-informed disciples who obey him without question..."

Careful Banjo. Your Trump Derangement Syndrome, mixed with not a little paranoia, is showing.

.

Dear Foxy,

.

You wrote about Trump :

« He should never have been allowed to run for office in the first place »
.

Yes, I think you’re right, Foxy. He managed to avoid being drafted to serve in the Vietnam War as a student and, despite having been declared fit for military service following a medical inspection in July 1968, three months later that year, in October, he pretexted a bone malformation in his foot to be permanently disqualified.

He subsequently admitted that it was one of his great achievements in life.

Article II, Section 2, Clause 1 of the US Constitution specifies that, in addition to Chief Executive, “The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States when called into the actual Service of the United States”.

Trump’s permanent disqualification from US military service did not prevent him from serving as the Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy when he became president, nor of the four other branches of the US armed forces.

Nevertheless, I doubt that, before his election in 2016, any of the country’s eminent medical experts, psychiatrists, etc., would have certified, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Trump was inapt to be president of the United States.

But that would certainly not be the case in the 2024 election. This time, it’s quite different. Trump's severe narcissistic collapse in 2020, when he failed to be re-elected, is a game-changer.

His inability to realise that he lost the election shocked the world at the time. He not only lost the election, but he also lost contact with reality and continues, to this day, to believe he won it.

It’s difficult to imagine that somebody who has lost contact with reality to such an extent could possibly be considered fit to assume the exceptionally onerous responsibility of president of the most powerful nation in the world.

Eligibility for such an important function should, at the very least, be subject to a thorough physical and mental health test.

.

" Trump's severe narcissistic collapse in 2020, when he failed to be re-elected, is a game-changer."

A game-changer? Its actually a figment of your vivid imagination. Zero evidence or even argument...TDS turned up to 11.

Biden today called all Trump supporters (50% of the nation) garbage.

So let's see,,,,

Obama - they're gun clingers, religion clingers, xenophobic
Hilary - they're deplorable
Kamala - they're Nazis
Biden - they're garbage
The odd nutter - they're weirdos.

Explain to me again how all the divisiveness is Trump's fault

It's a poor show when you are told by friends in the US to keep your political thoughts to yourself for your safety's sake, as an Australian visitor was told to do.

Niall Ferguson wrote an article asking if we (US) were now the Soviets. The answer seems to be YES.

dear Banjp,

Thank you for reminding us of the facts regarding the
former US president.

It is important that the public ought to get all the
information about issues not just limited information
and one opinion. However Trump supporters use strategies
to try to neutralize any criticism of their chosen
hero.

See you on another discussion. I'm disengaging from this
one because I can see the futility to continue with
some on this forum.

I appreciate the information you provide, your comments,
and your respectful dialogue.

Thank you for continuing to post.

.

Dear ttbn,

.

You wrote :

1. « It's a poor show when you are told by friends in the US to keep your political thoughts to yourself for your safety's sake »
.

Yes, I wonder why that is, ttbn.

I was hoping mhaze might throw some light on that, but I guess there’s nothing in his tool kit about it. Let’s give him a bit more time. I’m sure he’ll come up with something, like maybe : “It’s Kamala Harris’s fault. That's just an alias. Her real name is Calamity Jane ! ”.

Nothing to do with Donald Duck, of course. He gets shot occasionally – and he can prove it ! He hears the shots coming. He's got his ears to the ground. But he never retaliates.
.

2. « Niall Ferguson wrote an article asking if we (US) were now the Soviets »
.

Yes, I saw the video of Niall Ferguson’s ARC speech yesterday. His statistical evidence confirms the well-known sociological phenomenon of the similarity of life styles of the various strata of society in each country : intellectual elite compared to intellectual elite, rich compared to rich, middle class compared to middle class, poor compared to poor, throughout the world, irrespective of the different political regimes in each country’ .

Billionaires have more in common with each other in Moscow, New York, Berlin, London, Beijing, New Delhi and Paris, than they have with their own countrymen. The same goes for the intellectual elite and the middle and poor classes. Social stratification tends to differentiate nationally and assimilate internationally.

As for the possible Sovietisation of the US, if it were to occur at this election, I doubt that it would change much for the poor and lower middle classes. The others would probably suffer, but the risk is that of Trumpism rather than Sovietisation.

We shouldn't forget that Trumpism translates as follows :

• “America First” means “Trump First” !

• “Make America Great Again” means “Make Trump Great Again” !

• “Trump America” means “Never Trump Trump” for your safety's sake !

.

Dear Banjo,

Trump has said he does not touch alcohol.

Think about that.

That means that every statement, every interview,
every tweet ... completely sober.

"I was hoping mhaze might throw some light on that"

Someone told tbbn something. What light do you want shed?

"We shouldn't forget that Trumpism translates as follows :

• “America First” means “Trump First” !

• “Make America Great Again” means “Make Trump Great Again” !

• “Trump America” means “Never Trump Trump” for your safety's sake !"

I thought Banjo was at defcon5 in terms of his Trump derangement Syndrome, but it seems he still has a way to go.

What I find amusing is that none of our TDS crowd - Banjo. Foxy, Paul - ever say exactly what policies they disagree with or why they think Kamala would be anything other than a disaster. Its all mean tweets and such like. Equally they never even attempt to explain why they favour the elitist candidate over the candidate running with the support of the working class. I guess some concepts are just too hard to contemplate.

In the Trumpiverse - Theirs is a movement to save America
that's on the brink of failure. And only Trump can
save America from a "radical left" apocalypse.

Some concepts are indeed hard to contemplate.

.

Trump’s Political affiliations :

.

1. Republican – 1987

2. Independence Party of New York – 1999

3. Democrat – 2001

4. Republican – 2009

5. Independent – 2011

6. Republican – 2012
.
Where to next ?
.
But first, he has some unfinished business to do :
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gztBFzKbnwM

.

Hi BP,

I do believe there is a vacancy for a "New Fuhrer", the last one passed away in 1945. There have been lots of would-be's if they could-be since, but Donald looks ideal.

Dear Banjo,

Great link.

youtube.com/watch?v=qv9sH5ptgRA

The greats do change parties, not so much because they change but because the party changes.

Reagan was once a Democrat.... http://tiny.cc/867tzz

But when people like Reagan and Trump join, they then change the party in their own image, for the betterment of the party and the nation. The Republican party of 2024 is very different to that of 2014. Many Republicans can't handle that and have either become RINOs or have moved on to either join the Democrats or just howl at the moon.

Many erstwhile Democrats OTOH have now joined this new worker focused Republican Party eg Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr.

Many low information observers don't understand that.

People do change political parties. However, there has
never been a US president like Donald Trump.

All presidents lie. Historians say. However there has never
been a US president who has lied this much about so many
different things or made up so many things up out of
whole cloth.

Now, for the 3rd consecutive presidential election this
Republican presidential nominee is" running a relentlessly
dishonest campaign for the world's mot powerful office.
Willfully exaggerating statistics, grossly distorting
his opponents record and his own, regularly just plain
making stuff up".

"Trump is lying to American voters with a frequency and
variety whose only precedent is his own previous campaigns".

There's more at the following:

http://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/01/politics/analysis-donald-trumps-campaign-of-relentless-lying/index.html

CNN tells Foxy what to believe and she believes it. How very naive.

Of coarse, what we have here is Trump saying things that CNN (and therefore Foxy) would prefer weren't true and most definitely weren't discussed, and in their fantasy world, that makes them lies.

Trump's false or misleading claims total 30,573 over
4 years averaging 21 erroneous claims a day. And still
growing.

Of course it's all "fake news" made up by his enemies
and the "enemies within". Fact-checkers don't count.

Foxy,

You used that same claim from the Washington Post back in 2021 and I made you look the fool then for falling for it.

Do you really want to go down that path again?

.

Dear Foxy,

.

Thank you for that link which might have been quite entertaining if it were not for the fact that Trump may soon be assuming the immense responsibilities of the presidency of the most powerful country in the world.

It somehow reminds me of Charly Chaplin’s "global" scene of The Great Dictator :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jj-PaqFrBc

.

.

Trump’s religion/ideology :

.

White evangelical Protestants continue to have a positive opinion of Trump even though he has been divorced twice, married three times, found to have raped E. Jean Carroll (an American journalist), and convicted of falsifying business records to hide a $130,000 payment to porn actress Stormy Daniels to silence her about an alleged sexual encounter before the 2016 election.

A video published by the Washington Post provides an insight into Trump’s attitude towards women :

http://www.vox.com/2016/10/7/13205842/trump-secret-recording-women
.

Trump was baptized and confirmed in the First Presbyterian Church in New York and attended the Marble Collegiate Church in Manhattan with his parents who were attracted by the personality of its pastor, Norman Vincent Peale.

Peale admired successful businessmen and preached optimism and success, both material and spiritual. His book “The Power of Positive Thinking” was a best seller in which he developed a theology of success, advocating self-confidence as a philosophy of life.

It appealed to Trump because it fit in with his family's culture: not hesitating to bend the rules, doing ruthlessly whatever it took to win.

The “theological message of Peale echoed the "Prosperity Gospel," practised by televangelists according to which God chooses to reward certain people with material wealth.

Interestingly, Vladimir Putin also maintains a close relationship with religion through one of his previous colleagues at the KGB, Patriarch Kirill, who has since become the head of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Kirill has described Putin's rule as "a miracle of God". According to Putin, Kirill's father baptized him. During his tenure as Patriarch of Moscow and Russia, Kirill has brought the Russian Orthodox Church closer to the Russian state.

Krill has also praised the Russian invasion of Ukraine, justifying the war as a struggle against "forces of evil". The World Russian People's Council under Krill's leadership described the conflict as a "Holy War.

.

"[Trump was]found to have raped E. Jean Carroll "

False. Struth - you people. What was I saying about low information observers?

Meanwhile, not a policy discussion in sight. Just concentrate on mindless peripheries.

Last month the USA lost 28000 private sector jobs as the economy unravels. Harris says she can't think of anything she'd do differently to Bidenomics. Trump has detailed and innovative plans to revitalise US manufacturing. Hey, but let's talk about his pastor from 70 years ago.

Electronic voting for Australia was rejected after investigations showed how open to fraud and dishonesty it is.

Voting corruption is rife in America. Americans know it, but not ignorant Australians, who should be more concerned about their own country, not America.

The Democrat party has clearly shown how desperate it is, and what tactics it will use, with its open misuse of the law, its lying and cheating (proved) at the last election - anything to keep Donald Trump out, when they have nothing to offer but an obvious airhead who keeps cackling about 'turning pages over'.

However, there is not much point in trying to convince people here who are obviously of the same calibre as the crooks in America.

.

Dear mhaze,

.

You wrote :

« "[Trump was] found to have raped E. Jean Carroll ".

False. Struth - you people. What was I saying about low-information observers? »
.

The Washington Post explains the verdict of the civil court case quite clearly, mhaze :

After Donald Trump was found liable for sexually abusing and defaming E. Jean Carroll, his legal team and his defenders lodged a frequent talking point.

Despite Carroll’s claims that Trump had raped her, they noted, the jury stopped short of saying he committed that particular offence. Instead, jurors opted for a second option: sexual abuse.

Trump’s attorneys have sought a new trial and have argued that the jury’s $5 million verdict against Trump in the civil suit was excessive. The reason, they argue, is that sexual abuse could be as limited as the “groping” of a victim’s breasts.

Judge Lewis A. Kaplan has now clarified that this is basically a legal distinction without a real-world difference. He says that what the jury found Trump did was in fact rape, as commonly understood.

“The finding that Ms. Carroll failed to prove that she was ‘raped’ within the meaning of the New York Penal Law does not mean that she failed to prove that Mr. Trump ‘raped’ her as many people commonly understand the word ‘rape,’ Kaplan wrote.

He added: “Indeed, as the evidence at trial recounted below makes clear, the jury found that Mr. Trump in fact did exactly that.”

Kaplan said New York’s legal definition of “rape” is “far narrower” than the word is understood in “common modern parlance.”

.

(Continued …)

.

.

(Continued …)

.

The former requires forcible, unconsented-to penetration with one’s penis. But he said that the conduct the jury effectively found Trump liable for — forced digital penetration — meets a more common definition of rape. He cited definitions offered by the American Psychological Association and the Justice Department, which in 2012 expanded its definition of rape to include penetration “with any body part or object.”

Kaplan also flatly rejected the Trump team’s suggestion that the conduct Trump was found liable for might have been as limited as groping of the breasts.

The reason? Trump was not accused of that, so the only alleged offense that would have qualified as “sexual abuse” was forced digital penetration. Beyond that, Trump was accused of putting his mouth on Carroll’s mouth and pulling down her tights, which Kaplan noted were not treated as alleged sexual abuse at trial.

“The jury’s finding of sexual abuse therefore necessarily implies that it found that Mr. Trump forcibly penetrated her vagina,” Kaplan wrote, calling it the “only remaining conclusion.”

Kaplan also noted that the verdict form did not ask the jury to decide exactly what conduct Trump had committed, and that neither prosecutors nor Trump’s lawyers had requested it to do so.

“Mr. Trump’s attempt to minimize the sexual abuse finding as perhaps resting on nothing more than groping of Ms. Carroll’s breasts through her clothing is frivolous,” Kaplan wrote.

He added that the jury clearly found that Trump had “‘raped’ her in the sense of that term broader than the New York Penal Law definition.”

.

Dear Banjo,

In short:

Donald Trump is running a relentlessly dishonest campaign
for the world's most powerful office.

Wildly exaggerating statistics, grossly distorting his
opponents record and his own and regularly just simply
making stuff up. Trump is lying to American voters with
a frequency and variety whose only precedent is his own
previous campaigns.

He's told people how schools are secretly sending children
for gender affirming surgeries without parental consent.
How town and even cities are conquered by illegal immigrants.
He tells voters about pervasive election fraud. He talks
about the highest inflation of all time. And he tells voters
that presiding over all of this is an illegitimate president
who stole the job from the rightful winner - from him.

None of this is true. Yet Trump keeps telling the crowds that
it is.

Thank you for your links.

It will be interesting to see how America votes in the
upcoming election.

One thing is for sure. There has never been a a president who
has lied about so many different things or made up so many things.
The United States that Trump describes in his rally speeches
would be pretty bad if it actually existed. None of it is true.
However, the scary thing is - if the man does get elected -
the lies could easily become true under his time in office.

Americans need to be careful with who they give power to.
Make America Great Again?
Sadly, it's all about making Trump Great Again. And making America
hate again.

I'll be wishing for sanity to prevail on their election day.

But I won't be holding my breath.

Dear Banjo,

The farce that is Donald Trump has gone on for long
enough. It is time that this matter was settled once and for all.
America would be vastly improved if the man could just go
back to being a TV personality and showman. Elon Musk could
help him with that.

That's right Banjo - not rape but sexual abuse.

Glad you caught up.

Of coarse, this was a civil case not a criminal case, held in the most anti-Trump precinct in the most anti-Trump state in the nation.

Its been appealed and will eventually get to a court outside New York where reality and rationality will prevail. Its a bit like the Pell abomination of a trial in that regard. As soon as it got appealed outside Victoria he was completely exonerated. Same here.

But it does serve to demonstrate the two-tiered nature of US justice under the current Democrat junta. The case only proceeded because NY changed to law specifically to allow it to proceed. Worse, the evidence is effectively non-existent (like Pell). Biden OTOH has been accused of rape with far superior evidence but no one ever thought for a moment he'd be charged. Being a Democrat is a get out of jail free card.

Similar to the classified document case where the evidence against Biden is far better than that against Trump. but Trump was raided and charged while Biden was let go because the prosecutor said he was too dotty to stand trial.

Foxy regurgitated lies she's been told....

"He's told people how schools are secretly sending children
for gender affirming surgeries without parental consent."

He didn't say that.

"How town and even cities are conquered by illegal immigrants."
That's a fact.

"He tells voters about pervasive election fraud. "
He tells them what actually happened.

" He talks about the highest inflation of all time."

It was.

Foxy just because you have neither the inclination nor the ability to look at these things without relying on the anti-Trump media, doesn't make it so.

mhaze,

You can choose to deny everything. But what comes
out of the man's mouth does make it so!

I don't choose to deny everything. I look for the data and form a view based on that. You should try it some time rather than just regurgitating the lies you choose to fall for.

For example he never said schools were sending kids for surgery. Just that in some locations they were helping kids to transition behind their parents back. California actually has legislation to facilitate that.

But you wouldn't understand that.

For Trump truth is effectively whatever it takes to use
the moment, moment by moment, battle by battle. He's the
episodic man shorn of any long-term story to make sense
of his life. He has to win the moment.

His supporters don't hold him to the same standards they
do everyone else.

Interesting times ahead.

mhaze,

Is that like the data you used of some poor demented woman in Canto Ohio eating a cat the you claimed proved "Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio, are eating peoples pets" 174 miles from Canton! Is that how you formed your view, hummm, no you were caught out reading off the Trumster song sheet again, what a Wally!

.

Dear ttbn,

.

You wrote :

« Voting corruption is rife in America. Americans know it, but not ignorant Australians, who should be more concerned about their own country, not America »
.

There were over 60 court cases regarding the results of the 2020 presidential elections where judges, including judges appointed by President Trump and other Republican presidents, after examining what little evidence was submitted, and often in the absence of evidence, concluded that there was not widespread fraud.

I was quite surprised and admirative on learning of this result. Naturally, there must always be the odd case of fraud of some sort, but, thanks to Trump and his “friends” (or should I say “disciples”?), the process has been tested and found remarkably satisfactory.

I see no reason to believe it would be any different in Australia.

Of course, we Australians are more concerned about our own country than America. We are concerned that Trump will implement his isolationist policy if elected. He has adamantly insisted on numerous occasions that every country should look after itself and not rely on America for its defence.

The risk factor for Australia is greater for a Trump election than it is for a Harris election.

Trump proclaims he stands for peace, not war and that he will quickly make peace deals with the world’s autocratic leaders, Putin, Xi, Kim and Khamenei.

Just what that means for countries under menace or attack is anybody’s guess, but it probably involves concessions unacceptable to them that they would be forced to accept following the withdrawal of American protection.

Trump has shown himself to be unstable, unpredictable, uncontrollable and unreliable. The risk for us is that without America’s protection, Australia would be a sitting duck, up for grabs by any voracious predator.

Harris, on the other hand, has sought closer ties with American allies in the Indo-Pacific, including Australia, Japan, the Philippines, and South Korea. In April 2024, she hosted the first-ever trilateral summit between the United States, Japan, and the Philippines.

Unfortunately, we have no say in who is elected.

.

.

Dear mhaze,

.

You wrote :

« That's right Banjo - not rape but sexual abuse. Glad you caught up »
.

You’re welcome, mhaze, but I’m afraid you’ve got it the wrong way round. The judge decided “It’s not sexual abuse, but rape”.

The federal appeals court already held a hearing on Trump's appeal on the 6th September 2024 in lower Manhattan but a decision is not expected until after the 2024 Election Day.

That’s the way it is and that’s the way it will remain until the court of appeal decides otherwise, or if Trump is elected president and somehow manages to wrangle his way out of it.

For the time being, a US president has the power to overrule his federal convictions, he does not have the power to overrule his State convictions.

He might have to smash the US judiciary system to get what he wants.

.

.

Dear Foxy,

.

One thing you can count on is that Trump will declare that he won the election irrespective of the vote count.

Since the chaos in the aftermath of the 2020 election, officials have spent the past four years preparing for increased threats of violence, and Congress has updated the Electoral Count Act to block the certification of a legitimate election result.

At least, this time, we all know what to expect.

So, on with the show !

.

I'm over playing this game of wack-a-mole about Trump's supposed lies. I get that the press you rely on have told you to concentrate on these lies in preference to thinking about policy because it suits their purpose. But its all smoke and mirrors.

Sure I could also talk about Harris's lies about working at Maccas, being raised in a middle class family, her lies about the border debacle, her lies about the Afghan withdrawal debacle etc etc etc.

But most of it would go over your heads and just isn't my schtick.

Clearly you are incapable of understanding or following issues of policy and the plans for the future after 20/1/25 even if you had the inclination to do so.

As Elon Musk has pointed out, if Harris, as the figurehead for the US ruling elite, wins this one, there will never be another free and fair federal election in the US. The US will continue its slow decline to irrelevance even while the elite feast on the carcass.

This of coarse would be a disaster for Australia and the western world and a victory for China/Russia/Iran which is why they are cheering for Harris.

But no say the clueless - let's concentrate on trumped up rape charges or (as per Foxy's silly WaPo list of 'lies') claims that he said he'd playing golf in Scotland on some British election day when it was actually the day after.

IF you want to talk about lies, talk about consequential ones like the lies from the US bureaucracy over Hunter's laptop. Lies that swung an election and which Jordan Peterson and others say were worse than Watergate by orders of magnitude. But I won't hold my breathe because those you rely on have told you to memory-hole that one.

The election is close. Trump leads but not by enough to offset the cheating that is already taking place with rigged voter lists, voter suppression efforts in red districts and MSM efforts to hide the truth. Harris will win an illegitimate election and the world will unravel.

Dear Banjo,

I've always been an optimist.

So this time around I lso hoping that things will
work out in the US for the benefit of everyone
concerned. Ultimately it is the people's choice.
We'll all be waiting and watching to see what that
will be.

I don't have champagne - but I will be saying a lot
of prayers.

Take care.

It's the people's choice between the stoic and the inane.

Harris - stoic.

Trump - inane.

America's choice.

Polling interference....cheating.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/11/republican-georgia-state-senator-who-descended-fulton-county/

I'm seeing dozens of these stories about cheating all over the country.
If I was so inclined I could fill ten days worth of post allowance linking to all the examples of poll interference.

Basically anywhere that the Democrats have any sort of power, they'll use it to cheat. And the deep state will look the other way.

The Gateway Pundit (TGP) is an American far-right fake-news
website. The website is known for publishing falsehoods,
hoaxes, and conspiracy theories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Getway_Pundit

Sorry for the typo. Here's the link again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gateway_Pundit

That's so cute....Foxy believes Wikipedia on political issues.

Looks like the Dangerous Doctor Donald is preparing the ground work for yet another 'Big Lie' should he loose the election, which is starting to look as though he will, but not necessarily. Should The Donald legitimately loose then the 'Big Lie' the same one he used in 2020; "Wez was robbed" will be laid out for all the Trumpster's like mhaze, and a few other Old Farts to go on the war path once again, "Storm the Capitol will be the war cry from Donald...the election has been stolen from us!"

I hope Trump looses, for no other reason that to see the likes of good olde' boy mhaze in his buffalo horn outfit and red, white and blue grease paint on his face running down Pennsylvania Avenue with his pants on fire. Of course DDD will be directing operations with his buddies Elon and JD through "X" from the safety of Ding Dong HQ in Florida!

.

Dear mhaze,

.

You wrote :

1. « As Elon Musk has pointed out, if Harris, as the figurehead for the US ruling elite, wins this one, there will never be another free and fair federal election in the US. The US will continue its slow decline to irrelevance even while the elite feast on the carcass. »
.

That sounds like a threat, Mhaze, an attempt at intimidation to terrorise and influence voters : “if you vote for Harris, … the elite [will] feast on the carcass !”.

The January 6 insurrection at the Capitol marked a peak in extremist intimidation. But it was not the only act of political violence. There was the 2017 shooting of U.S. Rep. Steve Scalise and colleagues by a Trump detractor. There was the hammer attack on U.S. Rep. Nancy Pelosi’s husband by a right-wing conspiracy theorist who sought the then House speaker in her home. Then there were threats by Republican extremists against Republican members of Congress for refusing to support their preferred candidate for speaker.

Intimidation, abuse, and violence are toxic to democracy. Elon Musk’s intimidation attempt is toxic to democracy.
.

2. « This of coarse would be a disaster for Australia and the western world and a victory for China/Russia/Iran which is why they are cheering for Harris. »
.

That is partly true, but mostly false, mhaze.

The US National Intelligence Council released a security update warning Americans about foreign election interference :

“Foreign actors — particularly Russia, Iran, and China — remain intent on fanning divisive narratives to divide Americans and undermine Americans’ confidence in the U.S. democratic system consistent with what they perceive to be in their interests.”

Having previously warned that Russia was working to boost the chances of Trump, it advised that Iran has been working to hurt Trump’s re-election.

While there is little evidence to suggest China has sought to affect the U.S. presidential race, intelligence officials have said Beijing has been focusing its efforts on congressional and state and local candidates perceived to be promoting policies detrimental to Beijing's interests.

.

Dear Banjo and Paul,

We've all heard the fake news, read the published falsehoods,
the hoaxes, the conspiracy theories - the
malicious attempts to destroy the country. And there undoubtedly
will be more to come if the man loses.

How can this man be removed? Non-stick spray? A crowbar?
Or have criminal charges brought against him?

Trump supporters still look upon him as a unicorn. They don't
see the reality of the goat they're supporting.

http://politico.com/news/magazine/2024/10/20/trump-overturn-2024-election-plan-00184103

"That sounds like a threat, Mhaze, an attempt at intimidation to terrorise and influence voters"

Oh really?. To me it sounded like a prediction based on a solid understanding of the last decade.

"There was the 2017 shooting of U.S. Rep. Steve Scalise and colleagues by a Trump detractor."

The shooter was a Bernie Sanders supporter!! Struth.

"attack on U.S. Rep. Nancy Pelosi’s husband by a right-wing conspiracy theorist "

Zero evidence for that. The bloke was a nutter but his political affiliations are unknown. OTOH it could have been a homosexual sexual liaison gone wrong. but that's been covered up....for now.

___________________________________________________________________

One more of the vast numbers of examples of cheating....

http://tiny.cc/88ntzz

OTOH there is some fightback... http://tiny.cc/m8ntzz

______________________________________________________________________

Speaking of intimidation, Trump's team have gathered a force of around 1000 lawyers who will be available to step and an try to nip any discovered cases of cheating at the bud. Digital messages are now doing the rounds in legal circles advising these lawyers that there are people who will seek to destroy their careers if they work for Trump. Fascism exemplified.

The American people will make history in their 2024
election. They have the choice of electing the
nation's first woman president or a convicted felon.

In the eyes of the law, if not the country and the
world, Donald Trump remains an unrepentant fraudster
and predator awaiting a likely prison sentence.

History awaits!

mhaze, how are you going with the evidence "Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio, are eating peoples pets" So far nothing but nonsense from you on the subject.

They have the choice of electing the nation's first woman president or a convicted felon."

A convict felon? Like Alexei Navalny? Luckily the US gets to make that choice. Unlike Russia.

People will vote for Trump despite the fake court cases because those who are informed (unlike some we know!!) know that they were fabricated charges and that those that haven't already unravelled will be overturned on appeal.

_______________________________________________________________

Its always mildly amusing when Paul asks for evidence. The man who lives in a fact free environment and has specifically said he refuses to provide evidence for his daffy ideas.

"Facebook posts on local Springfield crime-watch groups started making similar claims, with one supposed resident whose post went viral saying their "daughter's friend" had seen Haitians eating her cat and that local authorities had said they were doing the same with ducks and geese."

As usual Paul concentrates on the trivial because the substantive is beyond his understanding.

Trump's final address to the nation before the election.

http://twitter.com/i/status/1853515403106099557

Speaking of those lawyers working to stop the steal. another victory for them...

http://tiny.cc/g0ptzz

mhaze is now totally off the planet, he claims that some, wait for it, anonymous Facebook posters daughters friend, told her daughter that she had seen, Haitians eating her cat, and that local authorities, probably more anonymous Facebook posters, had said they were doing the same with ducks and geese." A mate of mine,told me his neighbours cousin twice removed seen mhaze eating garden worms! The blokes a fruitcake, its no wonder he loves Trump.

.

Judgment Day 5 November 2024

.

America’s Flawed Democracy is under stress. It stands on three pillars :

1. “All men are created equal” (US Declaration of Independence)

2. Rule by the people in the common interest (Democracy)

3. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances (First Amendment to the Constitution)

Aristotle liked democratic systems because he believed in the wisdom of crowds. He noted : “If the people are not utterly degraded, although individually they may be worse judges than those who have special knowledge, as a body they are as good or better.”

He considered that the best political community is formed of citizens of the middle class, and that states that are likely to be well-administered, are those in which the middle class is large – larger than both the other classes : rich and poor.

He says that larger middle classes produce more stable states. Thus, the middle class is key in the establishment and maintenance of a polity (an ideal democracy that governs in the interest of all, not just the leadership). Because they are not in extreme need nor extreme wealth, their assessment of the common interest will produce the greatest benefit for all members.

Critically, he explains : “There are two parts of good government; one is the actual obedience of citizens to the laws, the other part is the goodness of the laws which they obey.” We must pay close attention to the content of the laws we’re following. They must constantly be reevaluated to make sure they remain consistent with the common interest.

Nevertheless, for Aristotle, there is no clear-cut best system. He warns : “None of the principles on which men claim to rule, and hold other men in subjection to them, are strictly right.”

When America’s flawed democracy is stressed, the free world holds its breath.

.

US election day 2024 is finally here.

Predicting the winner ahead of time is difficult due
to the polls showing - it's too close to call.

If Harris is elected - she'll be the first female US
president. If Trump wins he'll be the first convicted
criminal to win the White House and gain access to
nuclear codes.

If Trump falls short the 78 year old faces more
humiliating courtroom trials and potentially time
behind bars.

This would be the end of a charmed life in which he's
somehow always managed to outrun the law and duck
responsibility.

The property-developer and reality TV star has spent his
career pushing ethical and legal boundaries to the limit,
facing countless investigations, court battles, and
hefty fines. His life has been a life of scandal on a
gargantuan scale.

Here's an excerpt from a recently seen cartoon:

" They're going to indict you for Jan 6".

To which Trump replies:

Jan?

She's not my type.

And, Trump's excuse on returning classified secret documents:

"It's not a secret if I tell everybody".

The defense rests.

Paul,

As usual the facts go flying over your head. The point is that there were [people talking about the issue in various forums in and around Springfield. That means that when Trump talked about it, he wasn't making stuff up or lying, as you ignorantly claimed. Unlike Kamala's claim to have worked at Maccas or your claim that muslim is a race.

But too much for Paul to comprehend.

I don't doubt illegal immigrants are killing dogs and cats.
Haitians are weird anyway, all into their voodoo crap.

AC don't become like mhaze,

The Haitians immigrants living in Springfield Ohio are legal migrants, many have lived there for years. Don't became another Trumpster like that poor chap mhaze.

Trumpster,

What about your "evidence" that a woman living 174 miles from Springfield in the town of Canton, ate her cat, obviously geography is not your strong point. The fact is you thought Canton was in Springfield, a Wally in his tin foil hat. Now its evidence from anonymous posters on Facebook some mom's little girl probably aged about 10, told mummy that her friend told her; "The old witch living down the street ate my cat!" Then crazy Donald for political purposes repeats the lying nonsense to millions of people. We have the Old Lady, Little Girl, Little Girls Friend, Mom, Donald and mhaze all believing it, listed in order of IQ. Trumpster during Covid your folk hero Donald told his disciples to drink disinfectant, a hundred dead Trumpsters did so, why are you still here? Was the shop out of Pine-O-Clean and you couldn't buy a bottle, is that why.

Becoming quite deranged there Paul? Chill.

Just heard a commentator remark that one of the things Trump does is 'say the unsayable', something creepy crawly career politicians can't afford to say.

.

Revenge is sweet !

.

As Trump is poised to become the next president of the United States, we need to ask what it means for America’s flawed democracy and for the rest of the free world.

The electorate opted for change, radical change, so radical that it could prove to be a journey of no return.

The US has fallen from a full democracy to a flawed democracy and, with a revengeful Trump back in the White House, is headed straight for an autocracy.

Democratically elected, and autocratically extended for life with his comrades Putin, Xi, Kim and Khamenei.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTTC_fD598A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1bFr2SWP1I

.

‘Democracy’ as used by the media and activists has no connection to true democracy. The media and activists  have stolen the word to use for whatever event or issue they oppose.   Democracy is  a word that means what the media and activists decide it means on a day to day basis.   

Banjo,

You started this thread by claiming the US democracy was flawed because people won the Electoral College and therefore the presidency while not winning the popular vote.

But now Trump has won the popular vote as well. And your response? The US democracy is flawed. Clearly you just want to claim its flawed and the reason is, as far as you're concerned, mere window dressing.

There are some who adopt the view that if a vote doesn't go the way they want, that means its flawed. Not very bright - rather childish actually - but not uncommon

Talking about America's flawed democracy?

Vice President Kamala Harris has urged supporters to
accept the 2024 presidential election results and
has committed to a peaceful transfer of power
following Donald Trump's win.

President Joe Biden has congratulated Trump with a
telephone call invited Trump to a meeting at the
White House which will take place shortly.

President Biden also expressed his commitment
(along with Harris) to ensure a peaceful transition
and emphasized the importance of working to bring the
country together.

There's a gargantuan difference between the behaviour
of Donald Trump when he lost the 2020 election.
And the behaviour of President Joe Biden, and Vice
President Kamala Harris at their loss of this election.

We can only hope that this election's win will not be
a loss for America, her people, her allies, and
the rest of the world.

We must accept finite disappointment,
but never lose infinite hope.
(Martin Luther King, Jr).

The difference between 2020 and 2024 was that these elections were reasonably fair whereas the 2020 election was clearly fraught.

Why the change. Did the Democrats suddenly decide to play by the rules? Hardly.

The differences were three fold:

1. Too big to rig. Whereas 2020 was close and allowed the Democrat machine to play at the margins to get their man over the line, this time the margins were too great. Its one thing to fiddle a few tens of thousands of votes to win Pennsylvania in 2020 but quite another to create 200,000 to overturn 2024.

2. Part of the reason for this was that the GOP had worked hard to get new laws passed and then enforced that made such cheating more difficult.

3. The legal flying squad that I talked of earlier. These people were able to move quickly to stop any shenanigans before they occurred. Some jurisdictions wanted to stop counting early as they did in 2020 in contravention of the law. The GOP put a stop to that. In one case they wanted to bar GOP observers from viewing the process. The GOP lawyers put a stop to that. In another case suspicious boxes of votes turned up at 11pm from unknown sources in unknown vehicles. The GOP was able to monitor that. Lara Trump deserves a huge thanls for her efforts in this regard.

But we need to remember Trump isn't president yet. I'd be willing to bet that the deep state is in deep conversations about what to do to save itself from annihilation.

Dear Banjo, Paul,

If you feel sad about this election outcome, just remember -
there are people out there pulling a door that
says "Push".

I joined a live blog from the US yesterday to cover the election as it unfolded. All very exciting. But a few things left me laughing out loud....

"I live in constant fear that Trump will deport my latina mother-in-law who lives at 1837 3rd st, LA 90023. Blue house. She gets off work at 6".

"I was going to vote for Jesus but then I realised I couldn't because he's a convicted felon".

Conan the Barbarian when asked what are the best things in life answered..."To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!" (http://tiny.cc/zx1uzz - Pelosi).

And those who still can't work out why Trump is so beloved by his followers should read the great Selena Zito on the MAGA phenomena...

http://tiny.cc/1z1uzz

I know you won't read it...but you should if you have any aspirations to understanding the next 4 years.

"There will never be another candidate for president of the United States like Trump.

For his detractors, that is a relief. However, they should understand that whether Trump wins or loses, these voters are here to stay. They have seen what the power of the cultural curators in our country, in academia, media, Hollywood, institutions, and corporations, and in the bureaucracies has done to their lives, and they have rejected it.

It took someone as brash, unconventional, strong, and cheeky as Trump to be the bull in the china shop they wanted to see upended.

The elites mocked them for too long. The elites tried to change their values and their children’s values. The elite movies insulted them. The elite reporting was biased against them. The universities have lost all credibility, and the corporations have decided to dump their decades of loyalty to satisfy a narrow consumer base.

This will come as a surprise to some, but Trump did not create this coalition. He is the result of it. That is what the people who want the Republican Party to be the party of Dick Cheney again do not understand. Both parties have changed. Republicans are now the party of the working class, and the Democrats are the party of the elite."

And people here and elsewhere who claim to be on the side of the workers continue to support the party of the elite....it's not too late to see the light.

Hi Foxy,

ONLY IN AMERICA, I said on several occasions I didn't care who won, I see the American leadership as 2 peas in a pod, simply in place to serve the American military-industrial complex and its desire for world dominance over all others. Providing he doesn't start WWIII I'm ambivalent about Trump, his policies are mostly targeting domestic issues. The only reason I ever gave for wanting a Harris victory was to see Mr Mhaze Trumpster in his buffalo horn outfit and grease paint, storming the Capitol Building in January. Internationally Trump will give the Zionists and the Ruskies what they want, but not much else.

p/s I watched a bit of the boring nonsense yesterday, red state, blue state, Yanks with drooly accents and all that crap. Eventually watched an old movie instead.

“The whole rotten edifice and the enormous costs Net Zero is bringing will be torn down within a year” (Alan Moran) when Donald Trump takes over. The climate scam is currently headed to cost America $ 3 trillion per year by 2050.

We Australians are constantly reminded that we pay more than Americans do for our electricity, and according to JD Vance, America's already costs 30% more than it did when Harris was standing in for Biden, with another 30% increase on the way. Petrol prices are up by 42%.

The fear of a Trump victory has seen European companies abandoning their expansion plans: something they should have done long ago. Germany's switch to green energy achieved next to nothing. In 2010, 79.6% of German energy was powered by fossil fuels. In 2022, it had declined by just 0.3 percentage points to 79.3%.

In Australia, even the abominable Bowen knew that his evil plans to make things so much harder for people would be affected by a Trump Presidency.

All those lovely subsidies will disappear.

“The US election result should be a warning for Anthony Albanese and his Labor hacks. It should be a warning for the snooty conservative-lites who hide in the Liberal Party. It should send a cold shiver up the spine of Australian elites who love to preach at the great unwashed” (Senator Ralph Babet”).

The next 4 years of the Trump presidency - will be
a warning to us all. It will take decades to fully recover
from it. If we ever do.

Foxy, who throughout the presidential campaign period, assiduously avoided any attempt to understand the Trump agenda, suddenly decides, against all indications, that she knows what the Trump agenda will be. It'd probably be more honest to adopt Paul's process of throwing up your hands and saying its all too complicated and going off to watch and old movie - One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, perhaps?

What these people don't, and probably never will, understand is that this was an inflection point in US history and therefore the history of western civilisation.

Blacks (at least black men) moved toward MAGA. Latinos moved significantly toward MAGA. While women moved decisively toward MAGA. Young men and women, Generation Z (born between 1995 and 2010), moved in massive numbers toward MAGA. As I've been trying to get those in our midst who think of themselves as friends of the worker, workers moved toward MAGA.

The left in America now represent the wealthy and the credentialled. Its yet to be seen if MAGA can consolidate this new alignment but the notion that working class whites, blacks and Latinos are all under the one tent, is massive. Many don't understand that.

_______________________________________________________________

As regards foreign policy, Qatar has now told those leaders of Hamas who are hiding in Qatar to leave asap. Trump's not even sworn in and the world is bowing to his will.

The Trump agenda:

http://politico.com/news/2024/11/06/donald-trump-second-term-policies-00187157

If you don't like these. I'm sure he'll be able to fin
others for you.

Americans have spoken. They'll get another chance to do so in
4 years time.

The appalling Democrat candidate wasn't the only thing that got Trump elected despite all the muck that was thrown at him. Muck had to be thrown because the Democrats via Harris had no policies. There was nothing good to be said about their current rule.

Americans, suffering under the most Left wing government ever, suddenly remembered everything Trump got right when he was President last time: and the fact that nothing Hollywood stars said about him occurred then.

Elon Musk looks like bring appointed to sort out the public service. He's the right man for that job after his cull of commos out of Twitter.

As well as a Trump, Australia could do with a Musk.

As of now, the Albanese government has created a 3.6% increase in our public service. We are now paying $230 billion for "workers" who add no growth or benefits to the economy.

If I was in the position you are:

Spending a year trying very hard to NOT know what Trump's policies were
Spending a year believing every cockamamie claim made by your gurus about Trump
Spending the last few months in certainty that Harris would win
Spending a year trying very hard to NOT realise that I was backing the elites in their battle with the working class

And then after all that getting smacked over the head with a reality check

And then finally realising it might be time to find out what Trump's MAGA is all about...

if I was in that position, I wouldn't go running off to one of the most anti-MAGA sites on the WWW (Politico) to beg them to tell me what I wanted to hear.

I'd go to the source and find out directly from MAGA what MAGA was about. I'd try to do proper research not go looking for comforting fables.

But that's just me.

Trumpster,

If the 2020 election was rigged as claimed, and it resulted in Biden winning, can we not assume the 2024 was also rigged to give Trump victory. So don't put away your buffalo horn outfit and red, white and blue grease paint just yet, you may be be required once more to lead the fight for truth, justice and the American way! Otherwise we can just order in pizza and stay at home. What do you think? For me the pizza sound good, 'Meat Lovers' for me.

.

Dear mhaze,

.

Sorry to have taken so long to reply to your post dated Thursday, 7 November 2024 10:22:56 AM. Workers next door accidentally cut the fibre in the building they were reconstructing so we all got cut off from the internet. I am back on now with a temporary Wi-Fi connection.

You wrote :

« You started this thread by claiming the US democracy was flawed because people won the Electoral College and therefore the presidency while not winning the popular vote.

But now Trump has won the popular vote as well. And your response? The US democracy is flawed. Clearly, you just want to claim its flawed and the reason is, as far as you're concerned, mere window dressing. »
.

I started this thread by stating :

« The US is rated by the Economist Intelligence Unit as a “flawed democracy” and has been for the past 8 years. It is “flawed” because Americans don’t seem to care much for democracy – rule by the people, for the people – because that’s not exactly the way it works. »

Nothing has changed, mhaze. The people still don’t elect the president directly by their vote. The Electoral College elects the president.

In the 2020 presidential election Biden won both the Electoral College vote and the popular vote, but that did not change the fact that the US democracy is flawed – anymore than Trump’s election did in 2024.

If you wish to understand what the Economist Intelligence Unit’s classification of a “flawed democracy” means, I suggest you read my exchange with Rhian who was the first to reply to my initial post on this thread.

As I think you will see, it has nothing to do with “window dressing” as you suggest and unlike you, mhaze, I have no political bias. I see myself as a pragmatist with what I consider to be a strict minimum of humanistic values and principles that every decent human being should possess.

.

“Donald Trump’s victory will change the fate of the world, and shake up other leaderships whose predominantly left-wing politicians have spent the last few years sneering and saying regrettable things about the man who is about to be in charge of their security. There has been a long line of congratulatory comments, most of which have included uncharacteristic grovelling. It is lucky for them that Trump has a history of pragmatism and forgiveness.”

The Albanese regime, along with all Australia's lefties, didn't expect Trump to win. Now Albanese is stuck with that embarrassing oik, Rudd, in Washington. Rudd is stupid enough to think deleting the truly awful things he said about Trump will remove them from memory.

Some time ago, Nigel Farage interviewed Donald Trump about Rudd and his obvious hatred. Trump said that he did not know much about the man, except that he was “a little nasty” and not the “brightest globe”. Trump indicated that Rudd wouldn't be around long if he, Trump, got to be President.

Now, even members of the Opposition are rattling their gums about how it is up to Australia to say who their ambassadors will be, not Trump.

OK. But Trump doesn't have to speak to Rudd, or have anything at all to do with him.

Unlike little boy Rudd, Trump is a real man who might let Rudd's abuse of him slip. Rudd has neither the integrity nor decency to resign; and Albanese is too tin-eared to sack him.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

Yep, Rudd and Albo said and wrote things about Trump in order to big name themselves with their gang.
Now its coming back to haunt them.

And like real men of conviction </sarc> they are madly trying to run and hide from what they previously said and wrote.

I was going to say Trump'll have 'em for breakfast, but they are so inconsequential and so limp, that they won't even represent a midnight snack.

There have been many unflattering comments made by many
about Trump. But as some have said - that's "old news",
and Trump is more interested in what is being said today
about him. Kevin Rudd has deleted his unflattering
comments and is will behave accordingly in Australia's
interests. Apparently, he is doing a good job as our
ambassador to the US.

UK Foreign Secretary David Lammy described Trump as a
"tyrant" "A woman hating neo-Nazi sympathizing sociopath".
JD Vance - the current US Vice President back in 2016
described himself as a "Never Trump Guy". He called Trump
as "idiot", "noxious" and "reprehensible while expressing
that Trump might be "America's Hitler".

He also called Trump "dangerous" and "unfit for office".

Trump made him his Vice President. It apparently didn't
worry him.

Yes, there are interesting times ahead for us all.

JD Vance when questioned about Trump's refusal to accept
the election results of 2020 made it quite clear that
Trump was not interested in the past - but the future.

And for that we'll have to wait and see. Will Trump really
go after those he saw as his "enemies?" Will he seek
revenge? Will he retaliate?

Can any of us really predict what Trump will or will not do?

A great laugh to see the UK's black Opposition leader lambasting the Government's black foreign secretary for his derogatory remarks about Donald Trump in Parliament. Nothing in that one for sickly woke, white, race-baiters!

As Rowan Dean, Spectator editor and anchor of Outsiders says, Trump's election is a “pivotal moment”, where the goodness of Western civilisation has triumphed over the “evil that has been growing and festering under it”.

And the Australian Coalition has to understand why Trump won: not because of polls and elitist blah, but by truth and actually “standing for something”.

Talking about "standing for something?"

What does Trump stand for?

1) Trump's a convicted felon.

2) He goaded hardcore supporters into an insurrectionary
assault on the capitol to impede the peaceful transfer
of power. He's never conceded he lost.

3) A judge found accusations of rape against him to be
"substantially true".

4) He has a long history of racism.

5) He was impeached by the House of Representatives.

6) He allegedly had nuclear secrets in his bathroom.

7) He was ejected from office amid the disaster of his
COVID response.

8) He has promised violence and retribution if he's returned.

9) Trump rejects the norms of American politics.

And there's much more.

These are just some of the extensive long list of complaints
of Trump's inadequacies for the role of president.

In short, the man defies every expectation about what a US
president should be. He's also a liar, preaches falsehoods,
is unstable, unpredictable, a conman, and worse.

" Madam President", would have been so great.
Instead - they got - "Madman President".

He and his supporters, reject a diverse,
modern, and equal future. Their movement is explicitly built upon
rejection. This is sadly something that's currently gripping tens of
millions of Americans.
And, this is something that all of America's allies
and adversaries have to face.

There are broader implications.

Sadly, these will unfold with time.

All we can do is hope that American democracy will have
enough protections built into its constitution to survive.

All of the given information in my previous post has been
taken from the research of University of Melbourne and
other sources.

" But as some have said - that's "old news",
and Trump is more interested in what is being said today
about him."

Yeah I heard the Labor surrogates on The Insiders say that as well. I think they were trying to convince themselves rather than the viewers....they failed.

The difference between Rudd and, say, Vance is that the later addressed his previous comments full on and explained why he'd seen the light. Rudd ran like the man of no-conviction that he is and, by just deleting the posts, hoped to hide in untruth. And the left's flying monkey's are fine with that.

"" Madam President", would have been so great.
Instead - they got - "Madman President"."

I'm still trying to work out which is the more deranged. Someone who can write that or someone who thinks its worth repeating. I think Foxy wins though because she also thinks that this type of thing is providing her with unbiased analysis. How bonkers is that?

This from Jon Stewart might help Foxy cope.... http://twitter.com/i/status/1854659433609281915

She should note the part where he says.. "I was wrong". If Foxy could ever managed to sincerely say that, she'd be on the road to redemption.

mhaze,

I'd like to sincerely thank you for all your posts.
This forum would be such a boring place without you.
Your posts keep me busy - looking for
facts that totally disprove your strong opinions.
Facts that you choose to ignore - facts that are
available on media outlets - newspapers, radio, TV,
blogs, websites and social media.

However, if you feel that my sources and posts are
biased, you can try reading a wider variety of
other media sources. It may help and broaden your
outlook.

"you can try reading a wider variety of
other media sources. It may help and broaden your
outlook."

I've been telling you this for years and now you exclaim it likes a revelation. Quite the chutzpah.

"Your posts keep me busy - looking for
facts that totally disprove your strong opinions."

Well keep looking....you might find one sometime. Who knows, you might yet prove that the Al Aqsa Hospital wasn't bombed by Hamas, or that there were no tunnels under it. You might find that the Electoral College never gets updated as you claimed. All the mistakes you've made over the years, you might find a fact, just one, to right those myriad wrongs. But I wouldn't hold my breathe.

"you can try reading a wider variety of
other media sources."

I do, that's how I always know you assertions (claims without facts) are rubbish.

So off you go Foxy, try broadening your outlook. But somehow I doubt it. I used to hold high hopes that you would see the light rather than the tunnel, but somehow I now feel that's beyond you.

.

Dear Foxy,

.

That’s a very impressive list of defects that have been attributed to the incoming president, and rightly so.

But I think it is also true that he possesses some exceptionally remarkable talents. Who could have imagined that despite all those defects, the majority of Americans would prefer him as president rather than Kamala Harris, the incumbent vice-president and highest-ranking female official in U.S. history, a perfectly honourable person whose reputation is beyond criticism ?

Trump, the bad guy, won the confidence of his countrymen. Harris, the good guy, did not.

But that’s not the end of the story.

Batten down the hatches – a storm is brewing !

On the international scene, a Pew Research poll published in June 2024 indicates :

« Across 34 countries surveyed, a median of 28% are confident in Trump; 69% are not. (The survey was conducted before Trump’s conviction in a state criminal trial in New York.)

Majorities in Canada and across Europe say they have no confidence in Trump. More than eight-in-ten adults hold this view in France, Germany and Sweden.

Trump also receives poor assessments in Latin America, where at least six-in-ten in every country surveyed – including 86% in Mexico – do not have confidence in him to do the right thing in world affairs.

There are more varied views of Trump in other regions of the world.

Roughly half or more in Ghana, Israel, Kenya, Nigeria, the Philippines and Thailand express confidence in him. But large majorities in a few Asia-Pacific countries do not, including 79% in Australia. And in the Middle East-North Africa region, large majorities in Tunisia and Turkey view him negatively. ».

The maggot is in the apple. We'll see what comes out.

.

"unlike you, mhaze, I have no political bias."

"Trump, the bad guy..... Harris, the good guy..."

That the same man, within a 24hr period, could write those two things shows a massive lack of self-reflection.

mhaze,

I'm so glad that you understand the points I was trying
to make.

Dear Banjo,

Once again thank you for the information and your insights.

Who knows what tomorrow will bring. One can only hope
that it will be better than expected.

Dear Banjo,

Beyond all the twists and turns of the presidential
campaign, one fundamental truth needs to be understood,
tens of millions of Americans have cast their vote for
Donald Trump.

Trump will be back in the White House with a plan to
recast American society. The Republicans will hold the
Senate, and most likely the House of Reps. Conservatives
dominate the Supreme Court. This will present great
challenges for the Democrats.

It's going to be a bumpy ride.

Americans before they went to the polls would not have been very interested in Harris's gobbledegook about ‘turning the pages’ and ‘joy’.

A Fox exit poll revealed their real concerns;

Cost of living 39%
Immigration 20%
Abortion 11%
Healthcare 8%
Climate change 7%
Crime 4%
Gun policy 4% ( not what non-Americans think it should be)
Racism 4% (another one I the eye for the woke)
Foreign policy 3% (NB Australia!)

Among many reasons why Harris lost was that she was utterly incompetent, quite possible the least qualified, least accomplished person ever to run for a major party.

http://www.youtube.com/shorts/dSAi7bltvwM

America's new president, Donald Trump
Media personality, nobody's chump
Folks rallied round him, he attracted quite a mob
Beating his female adversary for the top job
His words gained momentum across wide divides
People disagreeing and taking sides
His words spreading quickly across lands and seas
Making many feel quite ill at ease
Greed and self-interest so openly shown
Hatred usually hidden, now proudly grown
Looking at things from far away
Seeing what's currently there on display
In order for us to stay safe and free
Perhaps we should just let America be
We need to weigh up what we will lose
If America makes the decisions they chose
Their choice not ours will forever be
Our sovereignty gone to across the sea.

.

Dear mhaze,

.

You wrote :

[ "unlike you, mhaze, I have no political bias."

"Trump, the bad guy..... Harris, the good guy..."

That the same man, within a 24hr period, could write those two things shows a massive lack of self-reflection ]
.

A bias is a preconceived opinion, mhaze. Observing reality through the lens of a bias (e.g., political ideology) deforms its image. What one sees is not reality but a deformed image of reality.

Reality is that which exists independently of ideas concerning it.

I saw live on television Trump inciting the January 6, 2021 insurrection on the Capitol. I also saw live on television his conviction by a New York jury of a criminal offence on 34 counts of falsification of business records in the first degree.

My vision in this regard was not deformed by any bias. It corresponds to reality.

Declaring Trump to be a bad guy is not a biased opinion. It is a fact that also corresponds to reality.

The same goes for my declaration that Harris is a good guy. It is not just an opinion. It too is a fact that corresponds to reality.

Trump is a bad guy and Harris is a good guy independently of any ideas that we may happen to have on the question.

.

In America we lived for over ten years
As a result we have big fears
We want Australia to get on the bus
In case there's a Trump in some of us.

.

Dear ttbn,

.

You wrote :

« A Fox exit poll revealed their real concerns », i.e., the real concerns of the American electors.

I couldn’t agree more, ttbn.

Kamala Harris and the Democrats made the fatal mistake of talking to the electorate instead of talking with the electorate.

They failed miserably because they talked a lot but never listened.

There is nothing more elementary than to ask people what they want to be sure to offer them what they want and not something they don’t want. Trump has been doing that all his life. If he hadn’t, he could never have succeeded in the real estate business as he did.

.

Banjo,

Even calling it an insurrection displays your bias. A riot yes, an insurrection no. That's just a word the Democrats used to try to weaponise the state against its opponents. You won't find any quote from Trump telling people to invade the congress.

In a country with more guns than you can count, none of the so-called insurrectionists were armed. The only shots fired were aimed at the protestors. The first insurrection in history where the insurrectionists were unarmed!!

As to the 34 felon counts... that was merely Democrat lawfare against Trump. In jurisdiction that voted 90% against him they found a jury that ignored the facts and followed the politics. It will get overturned once its appealed outside New York.

BTW the Hilary was found to have done the exact same thing as Trump and got a slap on the wrist. Two-tiered justice indeed.

Meanwhile did you see the clip I showed earlier of 'good guy' Kamala boasting about jailing a mother because her sick daughter didn't go to school. the clip where she laughed about jailing other parents because she wanted to protect federal school funding.

Or have you read about how she kept black offenders in jail beyond their sentence because they were needed to work on pet projects.

Good guy indeed!!

Dear Banjo,

Politifacts rated in its fact check that there were so
many false claims made about Kamala Harris by the
Trump camp -including that she kept people in prison beyond their
sentences to use them as cheap labour for the state
of California. This was simply not true and was not backed up
by data.

Kamala Harris has served as San Francisco District Attorney,
as California Attorney General, as a Senator, before being
elected as Vice President in 2020.

She achieved a number of firsts in her positions. Her 20 years
of service has now been interrupted but it has not been broken.
As she explained:

"I concede this election. I do not concede the fight that
fueled this campaign. The fight for freedom, for opportunity,
for fairness, and the dignity of all people. A fight for
the ideals at the heart of our nation. The ideals that
reflect America at its best. That is a fight I will never
give up".

With those strong words and beliefs - Kamala Harris
certainly qualifies as being good!

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/936121/kamala-harris-office-sought-to-keep-inmates-locked-up-so-that-california-could-use-them-for-cheap-labor/

http://tiny.cc/kv8szz

.

Dear mhaze,

.

You wrote :

« … A riot yes, an insurrection no … You won't find any quote from Trump telling people to invade the congress … In a country with more guns than you can count, none of the so-called insurrectionists were armed. The only shots fired were aimed at the protestors. The first insurrection in history where the insurrectionists were unarmed!! »
.

Yes, mhaze, the term “insurrection” is debatable. Unfortunately, a legal decision on the question now seems unlikely to be forthcoming following Trump’s election as president. The US Department of Justice (DOJ) is currently evaluating how to wind down the two federal criminal cases against the President-elect before he takes office, to comply with long-standing department policy that a sitting president can’t be prosecuted.

It seems that the ultimate goal is to get all the federal and state cases against Trump wiped out completely.

I have no doubt that they will succeed.

Allow me, nevertheless, to point out that the term insurrection, according to the 2024 Encyclopædia Britannica is defined as :

« an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt »

Nothing in that about gins or any other weapons. However, Michael Sherwin, the acting U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, the top prosecutor, was interviewed by Scott Pelley of CBS News on March 22, 2021. Here is an excerpt :

« There could have been many more deaths, but Sherwin says two dangerous plots failed.

Scott Pelley: What were the intentions of the suspect who was found with the 11 Molotov cocktail bombs?

.

(Continued …)

.

.

(Continued …)

.

Michael Sherwin: So you're referring, Scott, to Lonnie Coffman. And I think this is emblematic, that that day, as bad as it was, could have been a lot worse. It's actually amazing more people weren't killed. We found ammunition in his vehicle. And also, in the bed of the vehicle were found 11 Molotov cocktails. They were filled with gasoline and Styrofoam. He put Styrofoam in those, according to the ATF, because when you throw those, when they explode, the Styrofoam will stick to you and act like napalm.

Coffman's lawyer did not respond to us. In the other plot, the FBI is looking for a person seen near pipe bombs that were planted by the Capitol.

Scott Pelley: Why didn't they explode?

Michael Sherwin: It appears they weren't armed properly. And there could be a whole host of reasons. But they were not hoax devices, they were real devices. »

Sherwin was also quoted as having said that rioters could be charged with seditious conspiracy or insurrection.

.

.

Dear Foxy,

.

Yes, nobody’s perfect, but I’m sure Kamala Harris is basically a “good guy”, especially compared to Trump.

But, as ttbn rightly pointed out, that’s not what the majority of Americans want right now.

What they want is a ruthless autocrat who can silence all opposition and bulldozer his way through all the legal barriers and obstacles to get what they want :

• Cheaper cost of living

• Deportation of illegal migrants

• Effective border control

• America first

What they want is a bad guy.

They got it !

.

Given the state of the American psyche. If Kamala Harris had been a white Anglo male then Kamala Harris the man would have won. My opinion.....now for the fun and games. Trump was able to convince the "fat kid" who ate all the cake, that he deserves more cake!

mhaze,

Seriously, wake up. The US presidential election is over.
There's no need for you to give us links to conservative,
right-wing sources that support Donald Trump and the
Republicans. Sources that will support anything anti-
Kamala Harris that they can fabricate.

There is no further need for you to keep trying to
attack Trump's female adversary in the US presidential
race. It's over. You got what you wanted.
Now enjoy!

Cheers.

___________________________________________________________________

Dear Banjo and Paul,

There are so many lessons we can learn from the US
presidential race. Let us hope that our politicians are
paying attention.

I dare say there will be more lessons to come out of all
this for us all.

Be care ful what you wish for.

America will learn this the hard way.

Banjo says Kamala is a good guy
Foxy concurs.
I show two of the myriad examples proving Kamala is far from a good guy.
Foxy throws a tantrum - she doesn't like having her cherished fantasies exposed as mere fantasies.

Banjo

These facts remain:

There is no example of Trump telling anyone to invade the congress building. I'm sure you've looked trying to disprove that. Stop looking because it doesn't exist.

The only person killed in the violent attempt to overthrow the government (bwahaha) was a women who was trying to calm the situation.

Many of these violent insurrectionists (bwahaha) strolled into the building unhindered, took some selfies and strolled out again. Storming the Bastille it ain't. One of these insurrectionists(!!) was given a guided tour by the building's security detail!!

The case in favour of the insurrection claims was so bad that the committee set up to investigate it had to hide and delete vast amounts of security footage showing there was no insurrection. and then after the committee reported they had to delete even more data to try to hide their lies.

Nancy Pelosi, in an unguarded moment, admitted the it was her fault because she rejected Trump's offer to send the National Guard to help control the crowd.

There remains unanswered questions about how many FBI agents were imbedded in the crowd and their role in instigating the violence. Hopefully the new leaders of the FBI will answer that although you can be sure the shredders at FBI HQ are working overtime even as we speak.

mhaze,

There are hundreds of thousands of media outlets in the
US. Newspapers, radio, network TV, cable TV, blogs, websites,
and social media. These don't all take the same perspectives on
any given issue. If you want a strong conservative news site
it isn't hard to find one.

I did not throw a tantrum as you implied. I merely pointed out
that Trump won the election and to move on - instead of
continuing to attack his female adversary. The election is
over. You got what you wanted. Trump won!

Stop behaving like as Paul said - "the fat kid who get his
cake, and wants even more cake".

Not a good look!

Good news...Trump has appointed Marco Rubio as Secretary of State.

Here's Rubio's take on Gaza.... http://www.mediaite.com/news/make-sure-you-post-that-marco-rubio-gets-right-in-activists-faces-when-they-try-to-ambush-him-into-calling-for-ceasefire/

Foxy,

If you want to whine about how wonderful Kamala was you have to be prepared to have that challenged. And challenged with those things you don't understand... facts.

MHAZE,

All I am doing is correcting your misinformation
with verifiable facts. You seem to prefer
things that are not supported by facts and data.
That's your problem not mine.

You only support information that tilts in favour of
your politics and views.

In any case all I am asking is for you to move on.
If you think that the sources you've read or watched
are not biased, perhaps you should try reading and
watching a wider variety of other media sources.

Just a professional polite suggestion.

See ya.

"All I am doing is correcting your misinformation with verifiable facts."

I showed you a video of Kamala's actual speech. Misinformation? Just because you don't want it to be true, doesn't make it misinformation!!

You keep intimating that you read widely and have better data. Keep telling yourself that and you might even convince yourself some day. We both know that you read narrowly and only those things that tell you what you want to hear. That's why you keep getting things so wrong.

________________________________________________________________

More good news.... the Republicans have now officially won the House. A clean sweep...House, Senate, President.
And the Democrats and their supporters in disarray.

mhaze,

I saw the video.

Do you know who produced it?

No surprises there.

In any case I'm not interested in continuing to dodge the
spitballs you're attempting to hurl at me.

Apparently you're not capable of moving on and just want to argue.

I'll leave you to it.

Cheers.

Foxy,
I'm just trying to get you to see the nose on your face but its obviously a forlorn hope. Now you even reject video of Kamala explaining in her own words what she did just because you don't want it to be true.

That's next level bonkers.

Paul meanwhile thinks Kamala lost because she's female and black(ish) ignoring the fact that record numbers of women voted for Trump, record numbers of blacks voted for Trump and record numbers of Hispanics voted for Trump. Facts? meh!

.

Dear mhaze,

.

You wrote :

« There is no example of Trump telling anyone to invade the congress building. I'm sure you've looked trying to disprove that. Stop looking because it doesn't exist. »
.

The relationship of disciples with their guru all too often degenerates from one of voluntary submission to that of master and slave, mhaze.

When this occurs, the guru takes control of the minds of his disciples. He does not have to tell them what to do. They understand what he wants at a glance, a word, the nod of a head, a facial expression, a vague allusion, his general attitude.

In 1971, Charles Manson was convicted of first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder for the deaths of seven people, including the film actress Sharon Tate. The prosecution contended that, while Manson never directly ordered the murders, his ideology constituted an overt act of conspiracy to murder.

As I am sure you are aware, mhaze, Trump demands absolute fidelity and loyalty of the members of his future administration. That is his most important criterion for appointments. Yes men and women only. Unconditional devoted disciples.

It’s not just voluntary submission, mhaze, he wants to be in full control of their hearts and minds.

As we all know, Trump is above the law. He can do whatever he wants. He enjoys quasi-total immunity. I’m sure you will recall what he declared in 2016 :

« "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK? It's, like, incredible." »

.

.

Trump doesn’t have to tell his disciples what he wants. It is their job to know what he wants. If they don’t know what he wants and don’t do what he wants, he fires them.

If what he wants is illegal or dangerous they, alone, must suffer the consequences. Not Trump.

That’s how it works, mhaze.

There is a plethora of candidates, all scrambling to prove their unconditional fidelity, loyalty and total commitment to the demonic servitude of their future owner and master.

.

Trumpster,

I was WRONG! Harris wouldn't have won even if s(he) was an old overweight Anglo white misogynistic criminalistics male, there was already such a candidate and he had established his credentials with the "Fat Boys" and taken that base. No room for two.

A little story, I was watching this TV show last night called "Pawn Stars". These 3 American guys, 2 obese young white males, along with an equally obese black fella go into a hamburger joint, that the 2 white guys had been frequenting for years (maybe they just let black fellas in recently). This hamburger joint had a reputation for serving the most humongous burgers and fries you have even seen. The meals came out, and the joint certainly lived up to its reputation, after stuffing their faces to the point of almost vomiting, the 3 then left, leaving half the crap on their plates, and continued on their way to somewhere to check out Harley Davison motor cycles. I realised these guys represent millions of Americans, the ones I call the "Fat Kid", and they all vote for the Dangerous Doctor Donald, who has promised to give them even bigger plates of "burgers and fries"!

As I said, I didn't particularly care who won, although I did say I favored the warmonger Harris, just to watch you Trumpsters run amok after the result. As long as DDD does't start WWIII I'm ok with the outcome, its what's to be expected.

BTW, we have a mini-me Donald here, he's call 'The Mad Katter'. Possibly a presidential election is required in Aussie between 'The Mad Katter' and say that black sheila from the Senate who swore allegiance to the old ducks hair!

Banjo,

Seriously?

It is seriously your contention that Trump told people to go and overthrow the government by NOT telling them to go and overthrow the government.

And I thought Foxy was bonkers!!

Paul whines "Harris wouldn't have won even if s(he) was an old overweight Anglo white misogynistic criminalistics male,"

She wouldn't have won with the policies she took to the electorate no matter which identity group she was or claimed to belong to. Remember policies Paul? Some of us think they are rather important while others think membership of this or that identity group is the clincher.
Hint: identity group politics is on the way out following the MAGA victory.

Paul, showing his utter ignorance, says "As long as DDD does't start WWIII".
You might recall Trump was president before. Not only didn't he start WW3 but he actually ended wars. But the people Paul chooses to believe have told him that Trump is a warmonger and mere contrary evidence isn't gunna change that, eh Paul?

We all have our wants and needs
That's why so many online feed
Declaring truth from online forces
Taken from selective sources
Many regard Trump as a mate
A leader who'll make America great
We need to remember before we surrender
Many have fought and many have died
For our free world to survive
Greed must not overtake
America must not democracy forsake
Trump may be what America wants
But do the rest of us have to jump?

Talking about "bonkers" ?

I prefer the term - "happy with a twist".

Trumpster,

I acknowledge that wars during Donald's first term were lesser than in Biden's term, but Biden is a well established warmongery. I didn't say your folk hero was a warmonger, in fact I added warmonger to Harris. I said; "As long as DDD does't start WWIII", that could happen by accident or design, late one Stormy night in his black silky PJ's, Donald could push the big red button by mistake, thinking he's flushing a turd or some such thing down the loo. These things happen, particularly when you're in a hurry to get back to business.

As for the overweight blah, blah, one guy had already established himself in that department, there was no room for a second, winners are grinners.

BTW; Ain't all these American election rigged? You said last time it was, why is it different now?

Unlike you a Good Olde' Boy from Alabama, I had only a passing interest in the outcome. I just wanted to see YOU decked out in your buffalo horn outfit with the red, white and blue face paint on, rampaging around Washington in January. I'd even switch from the ABC to watch that!

.

Dear mhaze,

.

You wrote :

« Seriously?

It is seriously your contention that Trump told people to go and overthrow the government by NOT telling them to go and overthrow the government. »
.

Hopefully, your incomprehension is sincere, mhaze. Perhaps it's because you are not a member of the Trump sect.

On Wednesday 6th January 2021 the joint session of Congress convened, with Vice President Pence presiding in his role as president of the Senate, to formally count the votes of the Electoral College.

The day began with a rally near the White House to bolster Trump’s false claim that the 2020 presidential race was stolen from him.

The rally had been organised by Trump and his advisers and an organisation called Women for America First which held the permit for the “Stop the Steal” rally.

The rally organizers told the National Park Service that they anticipated 30,000 people would attend. The Army Secretary, Ryan McCarthy, estimated there could be possibly 80,000 protesters. The Associated Press said, in fact, there were about 10,000.

Trump addressed the crowd for more than an hour and said he would “never concede” the race, and that if his supporters didn’t “fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”

In a tweet the previous day (Tuesday 5th January), Trump falsely asserted that Pence "has the power to reject fraudulently chosen electors". The Constitution gives the vice president no such power. What Trump wanted was to overturn the election by having his supporters prevent Mike Pence from validating the results.

A gallows was erected west of the Capitol, with rioters chanting to "Hang Mike Pence" after he rejected calls to overturn the election results.

The guru did not instruct the members of his sect, to “overthrow the government”, mhaze. They knew, without him having to tell them, that Trump wanted them to stop Pence from validating the election results.

Weeks later, nearly 200 of those arrested following the attack declared that they were responding to calls by Donald Trump to help keep him in the White House.

.

Dear Banjo,

And mhaze calls me bonkers

Earlier I wrote: "There is no example of Trump telling anyone to invade the congress building. I'm sure you've looked trying to disprove that. Stop looking because it doesn't exist."

Well you've certainly stopped looking and are now deflecting.

I also pointed out that there was no insurrection, the only person killed was a protestor, most 'insurrectionists' strolled into the building unhindered, took selfies and left, one was given a guided tour by security who opened locked doors for him, and that Pelosi had admitted on camera that it was all her fault.

All of which you ignored because it doesn't fit your false narrative.

Paul asked: "Ain't all these American election rigged? You said last time it was, why is it different now?"

I explained it earlier. the main reason was that the GOP had 1000's of lawyers available to kill any cheating in its tracks, although as we get further into it its clear that some cheating managed to evade their efforts. But not enough to overcome Trump's massive lead.

"And mhaze calls me bonkers"

No....I observed that you were bonkers. Seeing footage of your hero admitting to villainous acts and ignoring it because you'd prefer it wasn't true is, truly bonkers.

mhaze,

Arguing with you is pointless. You make excuses for Trump
when the rhetoric comes out of his mouth live. And you deny
it, excuse it, and justify it. Yet you don't extend the
same courtesy to Harris. Videos can be manipulated.
And this was clearly done with Harris. But what can be expected
from someone who is a Trump supporter. Supporting a man who
does what he does best - bullies, lies, boasts,
and promises retribution.

Naturally you don't think that is bonkers.

"Videos can be manipulated. And this was clearly done with Harris"

Like I said....bonkers.

We all know you don't want this to be true and in Foxyland that's the same as it not being true.

But it is true.... http://tiny.cc/y6fvzz

We all know you won't read that because why read something that proves what you don't want to be true, is indeed true.

BTW, not a word about truancy in your last link. Standard Foxy there...when you know you're wrong, change the subject.

.

Dear mhaze,

.

I’m sorry, but in your last post to me you seem to be turning in circles.

I already explained how a guru (Trump) communicates with his disciples and cited the infamous example of Charles Manson who exploited the power he exercised over his disciples to influence them to commit murder without having to specifically tell them to do so.

Even though he did not tell his disciples to commit murder, he was found guilty of "first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder for the deaths of seven people, including the film actress Sharon Tate", and spent the rest of his life in prison where he died.

Corrupt gurus never assume responsibility for their disciples’ acts, mhaze. They never tell them what to do or not to do. They manipulate their disciples to get them to do what they want.

Trump did not specifically tell his disciples to storm the Capitol to prevent his vice-president, Mike Pence, from validating the election of Joe Biden, but they understood what their guru wanted them to do and he was responsible for what they did - even though he would never admit it.

I think we had better leave it at that, mhaze.

With best wishes …

.

Your Manson analogy is insane. No one died on January 6 other than a protester.

Your claim that Manson didn't tell his followers what to do is plain wrong. (" Watson later claimed that Manson had instructed him to go to the house and "totally destroy" everyone in it, and to do it "as gruesome as you can"). Just another fact about this that you'll need to ignore to maintain your fantasy.

Struth... Trump told his people to commit insurrection by not telling them to commit insurrection. TDS in spades, with bells on.

The world changed last week. Its a shame you'll never understand it.

mhaze,

I understand that as a Trump true believer you are going
to keep the faith.

Trump puts on a show unlike anyone else in politics.

However I don't buy what he's selling.
Nor am I going to buy any Trump calendars, key chains,
and other regalia sold at his rallies with captions such as
"Gun rights matter", "Fight for Trump", "Jesus is my saviour",
or "Trump is my president".

For those reasons I agree with Banjo :

"I think we'd better leave it at that".

Enjoy your week-end.

.

Dear mhaze,

.

Tex Watson is not a very reliable witness I’m afraid, mhaze. In fact, he’s not reliable at all.

He was not able to be tried with Charles Manson and the other members of the “Manson family” as they were called. He was sent to the state mental hospital after he was declared an insane “vegetable” who went into catatonic trances and refused to eat. He remained there until he was judged fit to stand trial some months later.

He pleaded innocent because of insanity to the seven murders of which he was accused. His lawyers contended he was not responsible for the murders because he was under the influence of both hallucinogenic drugs and Mansion.

Watson was tried, convicted and sentenced to death in 197, but California did away with the death penalty the following year. He is now 79 years old and still in jail, serving his life sentence.

Watson has been described as Manson’s right-hand man. He commanded the killings jointly with Manson.
.

In closing this discussion, mhaze, it is with much regret that I have to admit that, judging from your posts, it seems I was a little too optimistic in thinking that you were possibly not a member of the Trump sect.

Never mind. I guess there’s still hope. Time heals what reason cannot, so they say.

.

"He commanded the killings jointly with Manson."

Finally. That's what I've trying to get you to understand. Manson commanded the killings. Trump didn't.

Boy it was a hard road but we got there.

"[You are] a member of the Trump sect."

Sect you say? Along with 80 million Usians? But not a sect, a political awakening. Its sad that this renaissance is happening, unnoticed, under your very nose. But history shows that, for the unimaginative, the great movements of human culture only become obvious in the rear-view mirror.

_________________________________________________________________

I saw this and immediately thought... "if only Foxy could understand this"

A journalist was investigating RFK Jr's attitude to fluoride and found that he had science on his side when she started off thinking he was a nutter. She wrote... "Something isn’t automatically wrong because I didn’t know about it before or because it’s espoused by people with whom I have other disagreements. "

If only...

If only?

"My promise is that I will strive to be as objective as
I can and always base my analysis on a careful evaluation
of the science".
(Dr Leana S. Wen).

http://washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/11/14/fluoride-water-kennedy-rfk-brain-development/

.

Dear mhaze,

.
I see you want to continue this discussion. I’m happy to reply once more, but I do think we have exhausted the subject and can only repeat ourselves.

You wrote :

« "He commanded the killings jointly with Manson."

Finally. That's what I've trying to get you to understand. Manson commanded the killings. Trump didn't. »
.

I’m afraid you’re confusing things again, mhaze.

If you care to read my post of Saturday 16 November 2024 3:12:32 AM on page 31 of this thread you will see that I wrote :

« I already explained how a guru (Trump) communicates with his disciples and cited the infamous example of Charles Manson who exploited the power he exercised over his disciples to influence them to commit murder without having to specifically tell them to do so.

Even though he did not tell his disciples to commit murder he was found guilty of "first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder for the deaths of seven people, including the film actress Sharon Tate", and spent the rest of his life in prison where he died.

Corrupt gurus never assume responsibility for their disciples’ acts, mhaze. They never tell them what to do or not to do. They manipulate their disciples to get them to do what they want.

Trump did not specifically tell his disciples to storm the Capitol to prevent his vice-president, Mike Pence, from validating the election of Joe Biden, but they understood what their guru wanted them to do and he was responsible for what they did - even though he would never admit it »

Once again, I think we had better leave it at that, mhaze.

And, once again, I wish you all the best, mhaze.

.

I think you've talked yourself into a corner but haven't got the cojones to admit it. You can't simultaneously assert that "He commanded the killings jointly with Manson" while claiming that Manson didn't command the killings.

But yes we need to stop. The idiocy of claiming that Trump ordered the attack on the congress while admitting he said nothing of the sort is too much. That's why charges were never bought against Trump. They weren't sure they'd find 12 fools who'd fall for that.

To end on a happier note....
http://x.com/i/status/1858294638286721324

.

Dear mhaze,

.

Many thanks for that enlightening exchange, mhaze. I appreciate it.

As Carl Jung wisely observed :

« Everyone you meet knows something you don’t know but need to know. Learn from them »

.

Abraham Lincoln once said:

"I learn from everybody, even if sometimes it's what
not to do".