All through the Holy Bible from the early Old Testament to Revelation 21:8 at the end of the New Testament we are admonished by God to keep away from the magic arts. How do you personally feel about magic; and the dark arts? Do you perceive any threat to law and order through this generally hidden activity? Christians frequently warn about Harry Potters witchcraft practices entangling young chilren with demon powers. Do you see Harry's practices as an open door into a generally dark world of evil spirits...or just a bit of silliness?
Sometime ago the Victorian government took witchcraft off the books. Do you think that move was the openning of a door for a free-for-all in that State with warlocks and witches doing what they want now they perceive "government permission" for all sorts of familiar activity? Do you think this move was a wise thing knowing witchcrafts history?

Wicca is just part of the once-trendy overall New-Age phenomenon.

I'm more annoyed by Aussie kids who have started to celebrate Halloween as if it's something universal.

Perhaps if we went back to burning witches ...

Witchcraft is clearly dangerous, particularly to kids - it gives them Hogwarts.

Is witchcraft dangerous to young children?

Nonsense.

If I wasn't so busy right now, I'd hex you good and proper.

Now. Back to my naked-moon dance. Where'd I put that darn pentagram chalk?

It depends on whether they are an ingredient or not.

I do agree with you wobbles. Wicca is part of the once trendy overall New-Age phenomenon but I disagree that its going quiet, if thats what youre thinking. I think its as trendy as ever. The Harry Potter books and movies have created an explosion of interest amongst young people regarding witchcraft. The problem for me, many years a committed christian and for many other committed christians, is that by practicing witchcraft you can actually open doors into a very, very real world of evil spirit powers. You may not see them but my very personal life experience...is that they are there. There are two ways you can have contact with an evil spirit. The first way is, that the spirit through ones own sinful behaviour, gets authority to torment the victim (everything in the spirit realm is about authority and authorities...read/click on Ephesians 6:12-18 for a bigger picture) and secondly by deliberately seeking the spirit powers. This gets done through Ouija boards, clairvoyance, seances etc. When contact is made with the spirit powers, one latches on and the torment begins...i.e. a voice in the head. Quite often a laying-on-of-hands by the pastor and elders at a committed christian church is required along with a confession of sin and a repentence just to get freedom. Im not into burning witches but I sure would love to see them go to Jesus to get set free.

Gibo, the only threat to children here, is from people who take witchcraft seriously.

I'm far more worried about people such as yourself, who feel the need to rave about demons and the dangers of the occult.

Do you seriously believe that Harry Potter represents some kind of malignant occult temptation? The fact that you, and others like you, earnestly seem to think so is far scarier than any tale about wizards.

Harry Potter is fictional. I sincerely hope that is also the case with your sentiments.

Harry Potter is one of the best things that has happened to young (and old) kids in years - the resurgence of interest in reading is something we need to value.
The books are not great literature (and I do not think JK Rowling would claim they were). They are imaginative and good does overcome evil. People who do not want children to read Harry Potter (and other fantasy) are denying them access to a rite of passage of childhood. Their popularity has little or nothing to do with witchcraft and everything to do with humour, humanity and the human condition.
There is actually very little "witchcraft" in the sense of "wicca" in the books.

Its a wise society TurnRightThenLeft that takes witchcraft seriously. The next step up, or should I say down, is satanism and all over the world the satanists are killing. I believe there are statistics in the US and the UK that show that after pagan and witchcraft festivals there is an increase in missing persons in those areas the festivals were held in. The Harry Potter books and films are drawing the children over into future relationship with very dark men and women who do ungodly acts. Some of those children will become victims of covens later on. *Its not the stories and Harrys' cosy relationships with his companions thats the trouble...its the witchcraft practices in the books and films that satan wants the kids to copy...the great door openning practices that allow the demons access to the childs mind. The author Rowling admits being "impressed" by the Harry Potter themes proving to me that she has a history of witchcraft communication with evil spirit powers. I know of christian folk who have seen the dark spirit beings (Ive seen them myself so I can give testimony as to the truth) and who have done many battles against satan in demonic attacks. Committed Christians know through first-hand experience all about evil spirits, where as the non-christian simply drifts through life blinded as to their existance. My knowledge comes from contact and warfare. I know what Ive seen and have gone through. Christian bookshops have many books on demons. Many testimonies.

Gibo, you may have "seen the dark spirit beings", but have you actually read any Harry Potter books or seen the movies?

My 10-year old is actually right into HP right now, and I can attest to the series' capacity to get kids reading - in the context of competing activities like gaming, video watching and net surfing. I agree that it's not particularly great literature, but neither is it the nexus to the demonic netherworld in which some crackpots apparently believe.

It's interesting that the same kinds of people who are paranoid about Harry Potter also tend to be phobic about other cultures and religions, while proclaiming their own decidedly odd beliefs.

Sure CJ Morgan, Ive seen two Harry Potter films. How could I possibly write about Harry Potter and his witchcraft practices if I didnt have first hand knowledge of the material and what the kids were getting sucked into. I saw The Prisoner of Azkaban then The Goblet of Fire. The Goblet of Fire film was a quantam leap in darkness from the Azkaban film. Its was satanic and blasphemous. My experiences with evil spirits began back in the early days of my Christianity, though there was one incident before I came to Jesus. I was asleep one night in my bedroom when my mind suddenly openned (Gods warning of a demon approach, I believe) and I saw this long, black creature with bright shining eyes come in through the sleepout/verandah door as if the door wasnt even there. The next second I was being smothered and desperately having to fight the creature off. Three times I resisted with all of my strength before it left. This type of attack happened many times after I became a born again christian and I saw several other ugly mantis/ant type creatures during that period; before the attacks faded. For a longtime I thought I was the only christian who had had such attacks, but I wasnt. Demon attacks on active, committed christians are common though not all christians get them. They are mainly designed to frighten one away from good christian works. Satan cannot kill without Gods Permission. For their own sakes christians have to be one-eyed about other religions. Its Jesus or nothing with us people. No on else but Jesus was on the Cross for our sins but Jesus Christ. Buddha, Allah, Confucious, wicca, new age, etc are all demon distractions from God and Jesus Christ. Its all about the Man Who Was On The Cross. No other Blood was ever Shed for us.

Those pointed orange cones they use to redirect traffic. Such blatant skullduggery should not be allowed.

Got to dash. My fairy godmother has just pulled up in her pumpkin carriage and the unicorns still haven't had breakfast.

And ever noticed the way those orange pointed cones bounce back when someone runs over them?
Making an isssue of HP and other like matters will only increase the curiosity about such things. Present the book as it is intended to be presented, say "This is a story. It is not real. It is meant to be good fun." and the child will accept that. Tell them it is bad and they will want to know why and go on a journey of exploration into darker issues. The real problem is not HP but the people who oppose HP.

Gibo: "Buddha, Allah, Confucious, wicca, new age, etc are all demon distractions from God and Jesus Christ. Its all about the Man Who Was On The Cross"

Did you ever stop to think, that such hostility toward other faiths would be the hallmark of an evil faith? Wouldn't a loving god be much more tolerant of other beliefs?
The god you describe is a nasty one, quite frankly even if I did believe in it, I'd want nothing to do with it.

Fortunately, any god I could believe in, wouldn't be so petty as to require fawning belief from the masses, nor would it require such stupid ritualism.

As for your experiences with demons, I suggest you see a psychologist, or stop taking hallucinogens - preferably both.

Gibo

While I support most of your comments re witchcraft it is unlikely to win any support from those who can't share a biblical world view. Most can't and won't even agree that killing the unborn (a satanic act) is wrong. The enemies greatest trick has been to lull the wise of this world into believing he does not exist hence the mocking and scoffing. Most are so in love with their sinful lives that they have been blinded by the god of this age (the devil) into even acknowledging the spiritual world. Many however are happy to be involved in astrology and other demonic activity because it does not require them to look at their conscience.

You just want an argument TurnRightThenLeft. Sorry...Ive said what I wanted to say about being-solely-for-Jesus, as being it for christians. When you give your life to Him you will understand.
I mentioned about witchcraft being the "great door openner" to demon powers. Whole communities can also do this "door openning" thing not just the kiddies seduced by satan and Harry Potter. Sometime ago, in a small country town in the New England region of NSW, some occult- inclined people on council and on the tourist association decided to build for themselves (apart from the general local desire) a standing ring of stones Stonehenge-style above their township in a position high on the hill as witches would build a ring of stones if they were sending out curses upon the christians of that community...and to start up a celtic festival in order to celebrate their celtic festival. As time passed more and more occult folk came into the community until eventually local police were finding chicken carcasses at the standing ring of stones site. Local police decided to kept it quiet, probably because of the tourism thing; and maybe some of them were occult-inclined as well. Thankfully, thanks to a few committed christians, it all eventually came out in the local media (a good editor too) and now The Lord has a chance to clean up the demon activity on that area and to lift the demon oppression off the local committed christian churches. *If we give glory to long-God displaced civilisations it opens doors for witches to gather; and for those witches and warlocks to call in the demon powers. Sacrificed chickens is a classic sign of an "open door" to evil spirit powers and activity... into that one small community.

runner - I decided a long time ago that compassion was based on understanding.

In all your posts, I've yet to see an example of either. I pride myself on having a strong conscience and morality. This conscience and morality is based on what I know to be right, not age old superstitions - but because you're incapable of understanding what lies beyond your superstition, other people's morality is worthless to you and you reject it as inferior to your own.

That saddens me, because the foremost thing that is wrong with this world, is people who are so tied to their beliefs they can't accept others - and you and Gibo are a prime example of people who are so far gone, you can no longer interact with the vast majority of people in this world.

Whilst you're sitting ensconced in your own little ritualised belief set, there are thousands upon thousands of other belief systems out there - all just as convinced as you that they are blessed by whatever divine mandate they follow.
Most however, are at least a little more willing to see the flip side of the coin. But you see that as decadent, so you're busy riding your high-horse, insulating yourself against these others.
It's quite strange, because that's about as far from the Christian ideal as I can imagine. Then again, I suppose seeing as these words are coming from an unbeliever, it's easy for you to simply dismiss them.

And as for witchcraft... hell, for the majority of people out there, this argument is so stupid, there's no need for rebuttal, so I'll leave it at that.

"Sacrificed chickens is a classic sign of an "open door" to evil spirit powers and activity... "

.....or a sign of a very nice picnic.

HP is a great read, recommended to all kids even big ones, theres somthing about letting your imagination wander for a while to allow the own juices of creativity to bubble to the top.

As for witches Ive got one that visits me every second weekend in the form of a mother inlaw, Gibo if you want put her to the stake be mt guest.

As for this thread, 18 people yours truly included have taken time out of thier day to comment on witches, w i t c h e s. Does anyone who believes in this crap also believe in the tooth fairy?

I want to know cause Ive got some teeth to cash in and can you send the little minx around to mine to cough up the dough Ive been waiting on.

And while thier at it Im an Elvis fan is the King gonna hit the recording booth anytime soon?

TurnrightTurnleft

You write 'This conscience and morality is based on what I know to be right, not age old superstitions -'

That is exactly the problem. Everyone bases their morality on what they know to be right and wrong. To the suicide bomber it is right to kill the innocent, to the woman who wants to abort for convenience sake that is right. to the Hindu it is right to ignore the untouchables because they will be reincarnated to a better life if they behave. You reject God's love and HIs right to call right right and wrong wrong and you end up with everyone doing what is right in their own eyes. This would be alright if it did not affect others but it does. Children end up being abused, fatherless, motherless, old people ended up neglected. Why? Because everyone does what is right in their own eyes.

I understand Runner that many here cant understand the bible view of things. Because of my concern for children I just wanted to tell my story about evil spirts as I have experienced war with them; and I wanted to talk about the ease with which people can actually open REAL doors into a REAL evil spirit world by goofing off with the occult. The Lord save the children from Harry Potters practices. For those interested the New England, NSW town I was talking about is Glen Innes. I was there in a christian church on the weekend of the celtic festival 2005 and the oppression in that committed christian church was thick enough to cut with a knife. I believe that for a very long time the committed christians of Glen Innes have suffered because of the witchcraft people in the community and I would love to see them set free. I really feel for them. If you are happy to pray for the christians there... please do.

What happened Gibo,

Did the Christians feel intimidated by a few stoned hippies running roundwithout any gear on?

Mate you should come along to some of the rave parties I get along to, it'd curl your toes old son. I rerckon some people at those things are talking to god himself.

Get a life or at least enjoy yourself.

Gibo,

When I look at what was done in the past to alleged witches in the name of Christianity, I'd have to wonder whether it's the former that should be unlawful, or the latter.

In the end, though, I prefer just to explain to children that both are merely fabrications of the human imagination.

Sylvia.

Below is another Christian perspective on HP and might help to explain why children raised in Christian households adore HP, why there was a battle in our household over the last book, and why no housework was done the day "Deathly Hallows" was released:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/julyweb-only/130-12.0.html

The magic part of HP is very seductive, my kids are very proud of the scars on their foreheads that look a bit like HP's, and usually have a stick (wand) in hand these days. But they are just playing make believe. When I point out the real magic in the world, the magic of God's love, they understand that HP's not real (but I think they still secretly wish "wingardium leviosa" would levitate their homework out the door).

Communicat, as English is the only compulsory HSC subject, I would hope that our children's education is in better hands than JK Rowlings'...but the teacher did not complain at all when HP appeared on the nightly reading diary every night for a month, so it must be a tolerable replacement to the usual books drawn from the Premier's Reading Challenge list.

But runner, it's more about the source.

Laws are essentially a set of commandments that we've agreed upon without recourse to a god. Much of the Christian ritualism isn't about morality - can you explain to me why it's immoral to eat meat on a friday... as opposed to Thursday?

It is laws that bring us together - you can talk about holy judgment all you like, but while you may see it as a reality, not all of us share that - it's this unwillingness to accept other views that creates divisions.

How would you react if I were to suggest you were immoral because you didn't properly worship buddha? What if I told you your entire moral code was worthless because of this?

How then, would you be able to engage with someone? How can you reason with them? How can empathy exist, when the approach is simply telling them their morals are worthless, and they're wrong?

TRTL,

It was never a matter of morals not to eat meat on a Friday but an act of reverence because Christ was crucified on a Friday and it was considered a pious exercise to abstain from meat on that day of the week.
It also meant a good assured income for fishermen, particularly during Lent when most Christians abstained from meat.

Came the Reformation and all that tom-foolery was done away with in what became Protestant countries.
The fishermen started to go broke and in England, at least, the authorities had to institute a Political Lent.

All of which has nowt to do with witches.

Which witch witches? Ah! The aliteration curse.

Why isn't fish regarded as meat?

Well, if fish isn't regarded as meat... what about the Easter Fish?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20000227/ai_n14292994

See, now it's just confusing...

Further to that runner - if you're genuinely worried about shifting morality in the face of declining Christianity, can I suggest you follow up on certain works of philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche?

A concept he explored was the 'death of god'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead

It's not the literal meaning - god isn't a physical presence that can die. It's more that humanity has killed the concept of god through their own higher learning, thus, the moral code that exists under the Christian faith is gradually lost. Essentially, the concept we've just been debating.

Nietzsche concedes the points you've made are valid - that it's possible nihilism will run rampant without the firm hand of a deity to instill values.

On the other hand, there's also the possibilty of freeing humans from the shackles of always looking to a supernatural realm, instead focusing on the here and now...

The Roman Catholic head in Sydney, Cardinal Pell, was writing in the Sunday Telegraph, Sunday 23rd September 2007, that Harry Potter gets his vote. I thought it was a dumb statement and the Cardinal traitorous to Christ. Where is the scriptural insight anymore? A battle between good and evil even in a witchcraft concept as we see in the Harry Potter books and films is still offering witchcraft as a big, bright, shiny lolley to the subconscious mind of youngsters. The RC church used to be much hotter once before on demonlogy. Perhaps in their mad rush to gather all other world religions into the great RC One World Church of the bibles last days (see Revelation chapter 17 and Mystery Babylon) they have dumped some of the more important aspects of the great invisible war on earth (Ephesians 6:12-18)...i.e. dealing with evil spirits. Perhaps the Cardinal should pop over the the pentcostals for a while to refresh his memory on demons, deliverance and not leading children into witchcraft avenues that lead to the fallen powers. Looks to me as though Mr. Pell has crossed the valley to set up his tent in satans camp.

"Looks to me as though Mr. Pell has crossed the valley to set up his tent in satans camp."

That is one (if you don't mind my saying rather extreme) possible way of looking at it. Alternatively it might be an ill considered view that he has expressed on one topic.

"The Roman Catholic head in Sydney, Cardinal Pell, was writing in the Sunday Telegraph, Sunday 23rd September 2007, that Harry Potter gets his vote. I thought it was a dumb statement and the Cardinal traitorous to Christ."

I believe the Cardinal is a fairly intelligent man. However I agree it isn't the most insightful of comments.

"Where is the scriptural insight anymore?"

I'd suggest he generally displays it. Examples include his publically vilified stances on abortion and homosexuality.

"A battle between good and evil even in a witchcraft concept as we see in the Harry Potter books and films is still offering witchcraft as a big, bright, shiny lolley to the subconscious mind of youngsters."

The trap is that it is okay because it is clearly fiction. Harry Potter has good pr. If another evil was substituted perhaps it might help clarify for the Pells of the world. You might appreciate the observation that that is like saying that fornication is wrong but okay to enjoy it portrayed as an obvious fiction in literature or movie.

"The RC church used to be much hotter once before on demonlogy."
Some priests still do exorcisms...

"Perhaps in their mad rush to gather all other world religions into the great RC One World Church of the bibles last days ..."

Perhaps you missed God's command to be undivided and this underlies your distaste for ecumenism? Perhaps you should stay away from JWs or those they have influenced and their attempt to paint the RC Church as Babylon.

"Perhaps the Cardinal should pop over the the pentcostals for a while to refresh his memory on demons, deliverance and not leading children into witchcraft avenues that lead to the fallen powers."

Couldn't agree more but then wouldn't you worry about gathering all religions together...

Perhaps you should all settle down with some nice cold lemonade and a copy of Harry Potter.

Chill, people. You're discussing witchcraft as if it's actually a serious issue worthy of concern.

It's not often I can say that Pell's showing the way on common sense, but this time, it appears to be the case.

Funnily enough, our local Catholic priest came into my business and bought a couple of Harry Potter DVDs the other day. I took it upon myself to warn him about the dangers of spreading witchcraft, and he assured me that the most dangerous thing he thought kids could do if they acted out the HP witchcraft was poke someone in the eye with a toy wand.

Yes, I think the Catholics are a bit ahead of the rest of the Christians on this one.

If the Catholic Church supports Potter then the Pope should stop writing books that knock Potter around on Germany's best seller charts. That isn't good for marketting Potter. ( :

http://web.archive.org/web/20050421030221/http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7572500/

I did some googling. There doesn't appear to be an official Catholic stance on the HP issue. Some like Pell give the thumbs up and some like the priest in this article are rather disparaging:

http://www.cathtelecom.com/news/201/17.php

Wow. While people were pursuing the witchcraft angle some very good pr for homosexual tolerance went in the back door.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071021/ap_en_ot/books_potter_dumbledore

Is there any media publication with enough tongue in the cheek humour to do a headline like "Pell promotes gay tolerance". I doubt that Pelly would like that.