The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > General Discussion > Conscription

Conscription

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 32
  7. 33
  8. 34
  9. All
The Whitlam government discontinued peacetime national service in 1972. National Service (for males only) was unpopular, particularly during and after the Vietnam War, when support for NS fell below 50%. Most support came from people who, because of age or sex, would never be ‘called up’ themselves. Some of the latter have been talking about this controversial subject again.

It is highly unlikely that it would be popular unless there was a direct threat to Australia, when we would all be involved, one way or another.

Possibly, the main thing against conscription is forcing anyone (except for the standing, professional military) to risk their lives for people who don't respect the Australian flag, don't respect Australia Day, and generally badmouth Australia at every opportunity they get.

The second reason for no conscription is that successive governments have run our defences down so low that it would be hardly worth the effort to try to defend ourselves from an enemy like Communist China.

Australian governments are all piss and wind, gabbling about pie in the sky measures like AUKAS somewhere in the future. We are totally dependent on America, which has also managed without conscription since 1973.

And, as with the modern equivalent of the naval press gang, which was a method of ‘recruitment’ until the early 19th. Century, the victims would be those at the lower end of society; for instance, those who can't afford to rent, let alone buy, a home. And they are constantly told how bad Australia is.

An IPA poll revealed that only 32% of 18-24 year olds would fight; 40% would leave Australia; 28% were unsure.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 12 February 2024 12:15:51 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
40% would leave Australia;
ttbn,
Good luck to them finding a country to offer them the security they still enjoy here for a measly twelve month of showing their appreciation for this Nation & what it provides them with.
Posted by Indyvidual, Monday, 12 February 2024 6:25:42 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"We are totally dependent on America, which has also managed without conscription since 1973."

America's more likely to get us into wars, than successfully defend us in the event of one.

If China wants to invade us, they'll vastly outnumber Australian and US troops, will America commit its sons to die for Australia in a conventional war?
They are not prepared to for Ukraine, but that situation would result in Russia V's USA WWIII

Also take into account that if Australia is at war with China, the US will be too and they will be defending themselves.

Let's say you're banking on the threat of nuclear weapons.
If China were to invade us, would the US use nuclear weapons on China?
- No. Because doing so would mean the US has to decide which US cities it will sacrifice to do so, when China responds in kind and the US can't defend against it, resulting in both sides annihilating each other, so that isn't going to happen.

The US is a toothless tiger, they're not the military power they were 20 years ago. Even now Ukraine has more men under arms than the US active military, and Russia has killed over half a million of them.

War has changed and the US has already been left behind.
They don't have hypersonic weapons or dedicated drone warfare in their military yet.
You can bet Russia, China and Iran are all sharing their drone warfare knowledge with each other, which they're also actively perfecting on the battlefield.
Russia and China have hypersonic weapons, and the Wests missile defense is substandard compared to Russia, who has a number of weapons systems the US doesn't even have.

Finally the woke and the elite have together destroyed almost everything 'Australian' anyway, I'll fight to defend the Australian people if necessary, but only from our shores, (I'm not invading anyone) but I won't fight for our government, who haven't been doing a good job defending Australian interests, they care more about immigrants and gay/trans people, so let the immigrants and gay/trans people save them.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 12 February 2024 8:35:13 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Furthermore, the US can't fill it's recruitment quotas without conscription either, they're already short.

The reason for this: Biden and Lloyd Austin's efforts to push wokeness and critical race theory into the military, it has completely stuffed it, as well as maybe a little less enthusiasm for Americas wars by Americans themselves.

Finally the price of US weapons is so high that any kind of a war that lasts more than a month would be too damn expensive, and send us broke anyway.

We won't win, the only thing we'll get is dead Aussies, bombed out cities, and a national debt that would take half a century to repay, if we even have a country left at the end of it.

Best option: Lets not get into a bloody war in the first place.

Take a look at Ukraine and Europe.
The Ukrainians are going to hate the US for what it has done to them, - getting then to tear up peace negotiations that continued the war, only to see them lose a million men and lose the war anyway including the further loss of territory, and so will the rest of Europe.
Europeans will say "The US impoverished us and tried to drag us into a war with Russia".
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 12 February 2024 8:52:51 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
If it comes to a war then it really doesn't matter if we have conscription or not & defending this Nation with people whose mentality waits for others to step in is a lost cause anyway.
However, a twelve months National Service asap would provide the young generations of Australians with the mentality that is required to keep this nation going rather than just letting it go to the dogs. The way things are now, more deserving societies will gladly take what is now taken for granted by so many here !
Posted by Indyvidual, Monday, 12 February 2024 9:35:53 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
We do not need National service to equip soldiers today. We need National Service to deal with States of emergency at home, instead of Volunteer brigades, or a well as volunteers. Young both male and female between the age of 18 and 20 to give two years of disciplined service to this country.
Posted by Josephus, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 7:41:06 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual says,

"If it comes to a war then it really doesn't matter if we have conscription or not & defending this Nation with people whose mentality waits for others to step in is a lost cause anyway".

Yes. But defending the nation is about having a PROFESSIONAL military, not a bunch of amateurs who don't want to do it.

And, why should they want to do it? They are taught that Australian society is horrible, built on genocide. Not only have the been brainwashed and lied to, they have now found out that they are unlikely to have any of the benefits won for Australia by fighting men they know little about - thanks to their Marxist, history-denying teachers and politicians.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 7:41:27 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The Forum > General Discussion > Rape

The Royal Commission into the depletion of Australian spirit has found that the main reason for it was the decline in sex and procreation.

The commission's damning report reveals that 95% of Australian-born women are not at all interested in physical sex, most of whom finding satisfaction in online Virtual Reality instead - that compared with only 5% among Asian immigrants, 15% among Middle-Eastern immigrants and 50% among other immigrants.

Being deprived and frustrated, young men who get no sex are turning as a result to other, unhealthy and anti-social avenues:

Of young Australian-born men aged 15-35, 65% have turned to heavy drinking, 35% to debilitating illicit drugs, 30% were formally diagnosed with depression and receive prescribed psychiatric drugs, 20% are constantly brawling among themselves and injure each other, and 85% have no interest in study or work, preferring to remain in bed all day at their Mom's and Dad's home instead.

As a result, Australia is about to soon fall into Chinese hands like a ripe fruit.

The obvious solution for restoring society and saving the nation is to make all Aussie women have sex, whether they like it or not. Every white woman and girl over 12 must be opened and made available for genuine Aussie men to enjoy. Only thus will Australia be made to become great again!

The best men to pilot jet fighters - the best women for the pilots!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 8:13:31 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Stop living in the past, this is 2024 not 1924. This may surprise some, but wars today are "high tech" no more battles of "The Somme".

Indy,

You say; "However, a twelve months National Service asap " YOU, sometime in your life in Australia, sometime up to the age of 35, you were eligible for military enlistment, you admit that, but when presented, YOU FAILED TO ENLIST!. Wow, now you want young people to be forced into national service. How about an Seniors National Service, for all you with snouts in the taxpayer trough, on old age welfare? No, you don't want that, do you?
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 8:51:48 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I think one aspect that brought the country a lot of unity back in the recent past was when we only had 5 tv channels, 7, 9, 10, sbs and the abc.
In those days, you could go to work and talk to the person next to you about what you watched on tv last night, because there was a good chance you watched the same thing.

Now we are all watching different things...
- Gaining insights on all different topics and all thinking different things too.

I'm not saying we should go back to 5 channels
But I think there was more unity in that period.

ttbns right btw.
Conscripts aren't volunteers, and reservists aren't professionals.
(They need constant training, until how to act under fire becomes second nature.)
You can only expect so much from these people.
- And I think Josephus made a good argument about emergencies at home.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 9:43:45 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Paul1405,
I think you'd even be a waste as cannon fodder !
Posted by Indyvidual, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 9:52:50 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Folks look at the realities.

There's a lunatic running for the office of US president
who admires strong rulers and is currently talking about
what he would do if elected with past treaties, European
agreements, et cetera. So we've got Putin, China, and
Donald Trump looming on the horizon.

If conflict accelerates in Europe and with Russia and China
a large number of civilians would have to be called up.

Are our armed forces strong enough to deal with future
aggression? If they're not - the wars will not be minor.

As the old adages tell us - the best way to provide peace
is to be vigilant. The best way to deter aggression is to
prepare for it.

We currently have a rising crime rate amongst the young.
Bring back conscription for school leavers. It would serve them
and the country well.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 10:10:12 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"If conflict accelerates in Europe and with Russia and China
a large number of civilians would have to be called up."

That's not going to happen, you've been sold a lie in order to trick you into pour money and human lives into the Wests project against Russia in Ukraine.

Did you watch the Putin / Carlson interview?
Putin's like 'We have no interest in that whatsoever'

What is going to happen, is that Russia will win the war in Ukraine, and all of Europe will be in a panic that Russian forces will move further east, which they won't because they don't care about conquest they care about security.

It's at this point Europe will realise they were sold a lie, and they will hate the U.S. for making them impoverished and trying to drag them into a war against Russia.

Putin's message to the west w/ Jeffrey Sachs
http://www.youtube.com/live/eJNg5OwM6VU
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 10:51:21 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
As one who has enjoyed 80 years of everything secured by regulars and conscripts in WW2, but who has never been required to do National Service myself, I have no right, moral or otherwise, to suggest it for anyone else. And I will not.

Some people think that conscription is a way to ‘straighten out’ young people. It is not. That's a job for parents and, in some cases, teachers, and the law.

Some people think military authorities want conscripts. They do not; they don’t want the problems of training anyone adverse to service, who have never had “no” said to them, get around glued to smartphones, and are generally selfish and self-centred.

Some of these young people would be seriously traumatised by loss of their mobile phones. Military discipline would be totally alien to them, because they have never even experienced parental discipline. They have been pandered to by parents and a weak society. The army is rough. You get shouted at. Not many modern young people could handle that.

Wokeness has ensured that ‘giving your life for your country’ is no longer a given. Young minds have been “poisoned” by constant anti-Australian, anti-Western messages.

Given the mess that our so-called leaders have made of the country, why would anyone risk their lives for them!

I'm not talking about all young people. Some of them are brilliant, and they would either volunteer if needed, or they are already serving in the ADF.

What is needed from our hitherto useless politicians is more spending on defence and unmanned fighting machines such as drones and missiles to defend ourselves with as little loss of life to our professional warriors as possible.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 11:16:32 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indy,

I had a cousin who was conscripted and sent to Vietnam, where he was one of the over 500 young Australians killed in America's Murderous War. I opposed conscription then, and I still do today. As I asked WHERE WERE YOU! You're probably about 80 years old, and hide behind that old age, all smug in the knowledge that wont affect YOU, calling for the conscription of young people today. You avoid the question, when ever I ask why you didn't enlist when you had the opportunity to do so. don't say "I wasn't an Australian citizen, your country of citizenship would have taken YOU."
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 11:57:09 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I'm pretty sure that conscription wasn't designed to get those unfortunate young people killed.
Just as cars, motor bikes etc. aren't designed to kill even more people. My guess is that drug abuse has resulted in more loss of live among those who refused to participate in National Service thus far.
I will not waver from my view that a National Service (not military) is absolutely vital to prevent a further decline of mentality among those who are just about to enter adulthood. Schools are failing society & only a twelve months Gap Year NS can put the brakes on that downhill run. Once begun, future teachers will benefit & pass the better mentality on to the students. Young people need to be enlightened that a NS is not about learning to kill people, it's about understanding & comprehending the value & desperate need of discipline in life. The understanding that a Nation has to be able to defend itself but it can't do that with illiterate & drugged to the eyeballs teenage fathers & single mothers.
To live here is a privilege & being born here is just sheer luck & to keep abusing both is sheer stupidity.
A NS will put an end to that mentality.
Posted by Indyvidual, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 6:09:24 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual

Can you provide evidence that that conscription works, that it has a lasting effect?

Are you speaking from experience?

Where and when did you do National Service?
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 6:23:54 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual never did any kind of national service in his life, he has admitted that in the past. That kind of thing is for others not this bloke.

Indy, as for the death of my cousin all those years ago, your mitigation effort is pathetic!
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 8:13:17 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
ttbn,
I did not serve as I left the old country before I was due & once here I couldn't because I wasn't a citizen for several years. I was actually not eligible to even join the reserves.
It wasn't National Service then, it was military service. I was around when my older brothers served military service as did my older cousins & every one of them credited the service with making them better citizens as in fact did a massive majority of the population. Besides apprenticeships, the service offered & helped many to get careers. Even here in Australia most working people actually support a NS particularly those who are sick of being taxed to the eyeballs so those on easy street can keep walking down easy street.
The only people who object to discipline are the ones who don't mind demanding others pay tax for them to go through life without contributing anything.
As I have said so many times here already, anyone (18-20) unemployed should be required to learn basic life skills & to learn how to be of use to themselves & those whom they turn to when times get tough. Parasitism is simply not a choice in a society that depends on a symbiosis !
Posted by Indyvidual, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 8:23:32 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
So, the only difference between you and me is that you believe in forcing a selected section of the population to do what neither of us was forced to do, and I don't.

I think that forcing some people to do something that others are not forced to do is completely unfair, to say the least. And, I don't think that it is going to happen. Conscription of any sort belongs to the distant past; and I don't think it would be tolerated in Australia in the 21st. Century; nor would the political class be game to try it.

It is highly unlikely that conscription would contribute much to our defence, given one suggestion expressed recently that, “Australia has been working on an idea that it would have ten years warning to get ready for war. Sadly, we got that warning more than ten years ago but did nothing”.

The person who made this suggestion, also expressed the truism that military brass is not up to scratch, and that they are so busy trying to recruit females that they have ended up not recruiting many people at all.

He didn't say anything about them being more interested in ‘diversity’ rainbow politics and gender bending than they are in defending Australia, but that is also true.

All we can do is hope like hell that we are never attacked, because not just Labor, but the Coalition too, have neglected our defence for too long.

Non-military compulsory projects would not be acceptable to voters either, and it would achieve nothing. You only have to look at our lax judiciary, no discipline in schools, no punishment for anything but the most serious crimes, to know people will not tolerate such out-of-date measures. There would be riots.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 10:33:04 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
you believe in forcing a selected section of the population to do what neither of us was forced to do, and I don't.
ttbn,
I'm forced to contribute to supporting people who won't move a finger for me. Is it too much to ask them to at least take the offer to learn ?
Posted by Indyvidual, Tuesday, 13 February 2024 10:46:07 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I agree generally with what ttbn has said. One thing to consider is the cost, the last I seen was some years back, $60k per enlisted person plus wages etc. Today its not a big army but a high tech defence force with skilled personnel, that wins the day.

As for conscription during the Vietnam War the sons of the elite, never went to war, deferments and pulling of strings is what happened. In America, "recruitment" of blacks, Hispanics and poor whites from the lower Socio-economic class are militarised. With that, America spends billions.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 5:42:28 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Paul1405,
I agree with you on that but that's not conscription doing it, it's people of the type who would never lift a finger to help themselves. Much like those who are against the slightest discipline.
As you would have noticed by now, my push for a National Service has no relation to military Service.
Conscription will happen whenever the need arises to defend like it or not. It is not a choice !
Aggression needs to be countered, no fancy, wishful ideology can avoid that. What Australians should think of is how to defend this nation. I for one don't believe in huge money-wasting Navy/Air Force. Coast-based missile stations would be much more effective. No need for risky rescues, massive fuel requirements, man power, no difficult logistics. etc etc. Simply point & shoot at whatever is heading this way without permission from this island. However, do do that we'd need people with discipline & a sense of responsibility & a NS will instil the mentality needed.
Posted by Indyvidual, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 7:39:59 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Conscripts? Struth, what a massive misunderstanding of current military thinking. Australia doesn't need conscripts. Virtually no nation on earth that isn't called Russia or Ukraine does need it.e. And no democratic nation would/should even consider it.

Talk such as "If China were to invade us" is ridiculous. China no more wants to invade Australia as Japan did in 1941. Never going to happen, at least not in the lifetimes of anyone alive today.

I put the chances of war with China at less than 5% this year (maybe 10% if the polls move decisively toward Trump), 0% if Trump wins and 20% in a second Biden presidency, but closer to 50% by 2035.

But such a war won't be fought in Australia. It'll be fought in the South China Sea. Australia's primary roll will be to close the Malacca Straits to all Chinese shipping, hence our purchase of medium range missiles and enhanced subs.

We don't need conscripts for any of that.

If the aim is to instil some discipline in 18-30 year olds, then good luck. Ain't gunna happen and even it were worth the effort, there are much better ways of achieving it. Society currently rewards and enables feckless teens and young adults. Withdraw the rewards and all else falls into place.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 9:33:16 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Some people don't "lift a finger to help themselves" because that’s the way socialism wants it. You will be looked after but you will do what we say. And, that costs a lot of money that could have gone into defence - one of the few things that governments should be doing that they are still neglecting.

When I say 'socialism' I mean both parties in the duopoly; the only non-socialist politicians in Australia are those nobody wants to vote for because they, the politicians, believe in small government and personal responsibility.

"Government is best which governs least" (Thoreau).

The last time this country had conscription was to fight a war in Vietnam that was none of Australia's business. The war was lost. There was a lot of angst and division in the population, we got thousands of illegal immigrants from it, and America has not won a war since then. The West, particularly the Anglosphere, has lost all confidence in itself.

We and our ally America are in big trouble, thanks to our useless politicians. But, discriminatory, tyrannical forcing of kids into pointless “national service” would not make a jot of difference to our situation, and would make the victims of the discrimination even more resentful and angrier than they already are.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 9:33:50 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Many of today's young people are floundering. They don't
know what to do with their lives. They need a structured
opportunity that will allow them to feel needed and
capable.

A mandatory national service, whether in the military or
other works of service, such as working on civilian
projects such as teaching in low income areas, helping care
for the elderly or maintaining infrastructure are among
ideas that could be tried.

Disciple would be brought into the growing fibre of
people. No one would remain blind as some currently are to how
others live.

People would become better parents, teachers, and carers.
This would allow them to learn a healthier way of living.
They would gain real-world skille, be part of a team while
learning to socialize with people from diverse backgrounds,
breeding greater social understanding and empathy.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 10:01:38 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Those who say getting rid of conscription was a good move, could they please state what they think of the lack of discipline, compassion, common sense & general bottom of the pit mentality ?
The Goaf never thought of the consequences when he sold out the only path with a bit of integrity in return for votes but hey, that's ignorant academic, lack of foresight thinking. The blue collar work force is reaching the end of the tether of forking out for the parasitic elite.
Let's make National Service (not military conscription) an election issue !
Those objecting should think of the enemies to this nation that have already been imported with their help !
Posted by Indyvidual, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 10:22:33 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I think it was Jean Dixon who prophesied that "The Eagle & the Bear will unite to fight the Dragon".
No sense needed if you don't mind living under the yoke.
Posted by Indyvidual, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 10:30:50 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"Australia's primary roll will be to close the Malacca Straits to all Chinese shipping, hence our purchase of medium range missiles and enhanced subs."
- China gets a lot of it's oil from the M/E.
I wonder if this 'blockade' war plan is the reason why they are trying to undermine the belt and road project, as it would provide another route for oil and thus undermines their war plans?

Obviously then, China needs to build an oil pipeline from Russia.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 11:03:07 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Indyvidual,

«Those who say getting rid of conscription was a good move, could they please state what they think of the lack of discipline, compassion, common sense & general bottom of the pit mentality ?»

We all got to start somewhere, don't we?

Having spent lifetimes as animals, driven by instincts alone, when one finally gains a human birth, it is unrealistic to expect them to all of a sudden convert their nature and be disciplined, saintly and intelligent - that takes time, many more lifetimes in fact.
We all started our human journey with a general bottom of the pit mentality, then work our way gradually upward.

That is not a problem.
Just look at planet earth as a school.
Children take 12 years or so to learn.
You don't teach them Shakespeare or ask them to solve quadratic equations in year 1.
And by the time they study Shakespeare and solve quadratic equations, new kids would have joined the school who still study that 4+3=7.

Allow young children to play.
Just start with the basics, like don't hit your friends, like don't take their books away, like don't draw on the wall, like feeding animals, like brush your teeth, like wear a hat in the sun.
And one of the first things to teach children, is to not abuse their friends, to not turn them into one's slaves, to not force them to do things against their will just because you desire a certain outcome.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 11:47:23 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual

I have accepted that things are different now. Young people are not like they were when we were young. It's frustrating at times, but I think you will find some peace if you realise that it's not our world anymore.

Conscription has been, and should be, buried with the rest of the past, like it or not.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 1:50:51 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
AC,

Its not a blockade war plan. But simple strategic doctrine means that in war you seek to cut the enemies supply lines. In the event of war, cutting China off from its Indian Ocean supply chain is a no brainer. China at the same time would be seeking to cut Taiwan off from its supply chain.

Belt And Road was/is opposed not because it gives China an alternate supply line but because its a form of economic imperialism. But China building a land based oil supply line either through the M/E or Siberia doesn't solve their problems. Cutting a land based oil pipeline would be, in war, the easiest of tasks - one well placed missile and the pipeline would be out of action for weeks if not months. And bear in mind, such a war would be over in months, if not weeks.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 4:20:37 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual,

Conscription but not military service?

It sounds like a form of enforced work for the dole. And we all know how hopelessly inefficient and ineffective that programme was.

Just exactly what do you propose these conscriptees would be doing during their term of service?
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 4:24:03 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Mhaze,

«China at the same time would be seeking to cut Taiwan off from its supply chain.»

This is under the optimistic version where Trump is not elected:
if he is, then there would be no Taiwan anyway and no war either, just silent defeat, then all there will be left for Australia is to rescue Taiwanese refugees and help building them a new home.

«It sounds like a form of enforced work for the dole.»

As I understand it, and let Indyvidual correct me if I am wrong, Indyvidual's proposal would not target only dole-seekers, but the wealthy as well which have no relationship with welfare. It would also grab students aged 18-20 out of their universities, employees out of their jobs, carers away from their elderly parents/grandparents they care for, married people away from from their young families, already highly disciplined monks and nuns away from their monasteries and small business owners would be forced to close them and attend the camps instead, where everyone alike would be helplessly bullied.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 5:15:05 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
a form of enforced work for the dole.
mhaze,
Most definitely not, it would be a dole-level paid education & exposure to real life responsibilities.
Yuyutsu,
That is your most insipid reply & deliberate misinterpretation to-date. Not even Paul1405 has stooped to that level yet !
Your reply totally highlights the immensely desperate need for a National Service that exposes impressionable young people to the responsibilities of citizens. You're totally missing the point which is improving the mentality of those whose indoctrinated parents were/are simply incapable breeders spreading uselessness & parasitism ! I for one want to give hope & purpose to those young who inherited the dreadful situation they find themselves in now from the idiotic generation before them. Another major benefit would be the side-effects of less crime, less homelessness & socially active people which directly translates into an improved economy & living standard.
Posted by Indyvidual, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 5:45:46 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"Most definitely not, it would be a dole-level paid education & exposure to real life responsibilities."

I've always said the formula should be 'double dole for full time work doing things to help the government save money';

Why 'double dole'?
Simply put - to provide incentive for people to get off their butts
Right now theres probably people living on the gold coast on the dole, who spend all their money on drugs, like amphetamines and are exempt from looking for work because they are drug addicts.

What a life, life on the Coast, pretty girls all around, sun sand and beaches, do lots of drugs at the taxpayers expense, and be accountable to no-one;
- The government will even pay for hotel accomodation and extra services because you're a drug addict.
- What incentive is there to do anything?

double dole for full time work doing things to help the government save money - and that 'participation should also earn 'training credits' (similar to working credits) which can be used to upskill, (cost of testing) and that courses - i.e all learning material should be app based and free, and that people should have 'digital resumes' where people can't lie about their skills and qualifications.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 6:15:07 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I fully agree with the idea for National Service and for both men and women.

During the last world war we witnessed young men with six weeks basic training sent to New Guinea to fight a formidable, well trained Japanese army.

This must never be repeated.
Posted by WhiteMouse, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 7:19:41 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"if he is [Trump elected], then there would be no Taiwan anyway and no war either, just silent defeat,"

Why? Why would Trump being president mean no Taiwan? What is the basis for this inane assertion.

Indyvidual,

I wasn't suggesting it was a form of dole. But it would have that characteristic of people 'employed' by the government to do things the government decided was valid. In the past these schemes have been seen to be both inefficient and ineffective.

You say this national service would involve "paid education & exposure to real life responsibilities". But what exactly would they be doing. Paid education? What, paid to go to university? What real life responsibilities
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 7:20:50 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
This noble life skills building ambitious project will culminate in young folk gathering at Indy's house, where they will learn the greater skills of lawn mowing, house painting, washing the car, not to mention the benefits of weeding the garden! A win for all, and a cleaner house for Indy!

Now Indy, I have previously outlined the great benefits of a "Seniors Nation Service" for you. It will be nation building as you develop new and exciting abilities, which you will be forever grateful!....BTW, what are you like at cracking rocks?
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 7:57:33 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The bottom line here is that, in keeping with the trend towards Marxism in this country, some people are expecting government to take over what families and individuals should be doing.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 8:32:53 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
mhaze,
Are you for real ? How old or rather how young are you ?
Paul1405 is trying hard to out-do Yuyutsu.
You three are a prime example why a NS is so desperately needed !
Posted by Indyvidual, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 9:07:19 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Mhaze,

«Why? Why would Trump being president mean no Taiwan?»

Isn't it common knowledge that Trump cares only for America
[then only for one particular American named 'Donald']?

Having no backbone or principles, caring not even for Ukraine, why would he risk American troops and why would he risk a nuclear war with China over some island with slant-eyed natives when he can avoid it instead using the excuse that "the buggers didn't pay enough"?

Isn't it common knowledge that Taiwan stands no chance of successfully defending itself unless it receives massive military help from America (and even then it's going to be very tough and the outcome uncertain)?

---

Dear Indyvidual,

«Your reply totally highlights the immensely desperate need for a National Service»

In what way?

Note that I have been personally a victim of conscription hence am no foreigner to NS. Nobody deserves to suffer as I did.

«You're totally missing the point»

Likely so, which means that you failed to communicate it properly.

The topic here is conscription.
Unless you state precisely in which ways your NS proposal would be different, the default assumption is that it would be the same as conscription in all other aspects.

So OK, NS would not be military. That was clearly communicated and understood.

Other than that, how are we to learn that with your proposal, unlike conscription as we know it, students would not be snatched away from universities, carers from the ones they care for, monks from their monasteries, business owners from their businesses, etc?
How are we to learn that young people who are already disciplined in other ways won't be forced into that particular NS discipline? that people who already have skills won't be forced to learn different new skills in your proposed NS? Does all that "goes without saying"?

And if your proposal is indeed so fundamentally different than and hardly resembles military conscription, then why did you name it similarly to how government used to call military conscription; also why then did you choose to present it on this particular thread?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 14 February 2024 10:28:13 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"Are you for real ? How old or rather how young are you ?"

That was in response to my asking Indyvidual for specifics about how this National Service would operate.

I take his answer as proof that he doesn't actually have any ideas about how his proposal would work. Its just an ignorant scream that he wants things to be different. Pretty much what I figured.

_______________________________________________________________

Similarly we have Yuyutsu who bases his opinions on international affairs on "common knowledge". Struth. Yuyutsu thinks that whatever the media feds him is "common knowledge". Actually its common ignorance.

eg "Isn't it common knowledge that Taiwan stands no chance of successfully defending itself "

War simulations show that Taiwan has a reasonable chance of defeating a Chinese invasion. Which is why there hasn't been an invasion to date.

Why is it that whenever I dig into people's views on Trump, I find people who have no real knowledge of his agenda but just regurgitate anti-Trump media?

Here's a couple of pieces of information that the media won't give you on Trump.....

Trump is the only president in the last 40 years to leave office poorer than he started. People like Obama have gone from relative paupers to mega millionaires while in office but Trump lost money in order to deliver for his supporters. But still we have dills saying he's only in it for himself..."[then only for one particular American named 'Donald']?"

In recent days the IRS has released figures on income tax receipts in recent years. Remember how the Trump tax changes were supposed to favour the rich and hit the poor. Well, the 2021 receipts (the first year of the new tax system) showed that the top 1% paid the highest percentage amount of tax ever and the bottom 50% of taxpayers paid the lowest percentage taxes ever ie, despite what the media fed you, the Trump tax changes did what he said - favoured the workers who are his supporters and hit the rich who of course support the Democrats.

I bet that won't become "common knowledge".
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 15 February 2024 6:17:29 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indy,

Something that does need looking at is the response to natural disasters fires, floods etc, and how best to deal with the "volunteer" system we have in place to handle these emergencies. The use of defence personnel in some situations is also a consideration. At present we tend to use military personnel in an afterwards "clean up" capacity, as they don't have the expertise to be involved earlier.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 15 February 2024 6:54:26 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Paul1405,
Correct on that one hence my perpetual pushing for a NS to instil the kind of common sense & the mentality that enables people to think & act accordingly to be of use rather than a burden to the society one lives in. This particularly applies to those receiving generous salaries merely on grounds of having a 'Degree' !
Posted by Indyvidual, Thursday, 15 February 2024 7:12:30 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I've got an idea. How about the selfish bastards who want people other themselves to be conscripted be forced to do volunteer work no matter what age or sex they are.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 15 February 2024 7:34:49 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Volunteering is something you have to want to do, not something that can be forced upon a person. In the past month or so we've had 8 people I can think of who have volunteered at the charity my wife and I are involved with. 3 or 4 have quickly disappeared after 1 or 2 shifts, they realise its not the glamorous job they thought it was.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 15 February 2024 7:49:43 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hmm...

Lets say we built off of my idea for a better 'Work for the dole' system;
Where it's 'double dole for full time work helping the government save money'.

My original idea for this was 'the job you have when you don't have a job'
and that Capitalism needs a pool of 5% unemployed workers to stop wage growth.
- But why not turn that pool of 5% workers who want to work into an 'break-even' instead of a 'liability'?

Do you want to pay someone $400 a week plus the cost of services and get nothing back,
Or would you rather pay $800 week and get a full time worker?

The aim is to turn a 'liability' into a 'break-even'.

There's no reason that within this framework you could not have an optional military service program.
The fact of making it optional not compulsory gives the person who chooses to do it some prestige.
- You know, it's like having your own 'Order of Australia' medal as a younger person.
Maybe there could also be some additional rewards for completion.
It could even be displayed on your 'digital resume'.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 15 February 2024 8:58:22 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
How about the selfish bastards who want people other themselves to be conscripted be forced to do volunteer work no matter what age or sex they are.
ttbn,
An even better idea would be that those who think the rest of us owe them a living go out & don't depend on those of us who worked & still work & paid taxes & still pay taxes..
I had to drive from Cairns to Canberra before I found a job. No dole for me & no compensation for when I got robbed several times.
A can guarantee that the crime rate would drop whilst the potential culprits are asleep in camps or dormitories. When they finish their service their new improved mentality will see them on a path they'd not otherwise get to walk.
Don't forget that many are not on the dole because they can't find work. They think they're entitled to get supported because the job they not smart enough for isn't given to them.
Posted by Indyvidual, Thursday, 15 February 2024 6:20:01 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Indyvidual,

You are not speaking about conscription - you seem to be speaking of a particular dole/welfare program for particular young people who would still have the free choice whether to accept it or to possibly starve.

This may warrant a whole new fresh discussion, or even an article, where you properly introduce your idea, explain it in more details and state clearly who would be subject to this program.

Just please find your proposal another name rather than calling it "National Service", because "National Service" is commonly synonymous with military conscription.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 15 February 2024 6:34:18 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
because "National Service" is commonly synonymous with military conscription.
Yuyutsu,
Yes, you're right & that's why I constantly make that point. Those against their little darlings being exposed to education outside the classroom make deliberate full use of that confusion. A National Service is to instil a sense of common sense & responsibility because the classroom education has been failing to do that for decades.
There is military service & there is national Service. We can not expect someone who has been indoctrinated by nonsense to develop common sense. It just doesn't work that way particularly when teenage parents on the dole, ignorant teachers & devoid of integrity media are the role models.
Schools are where the young are supposed to learn writing & reading etc. A NS is where the older teens learn real life skills like responsibility, consideration & social skills. Exposure to basic menial but vital work is invaluable & as far as importance goes, on par with higher education.
Posted by Indyvidual, Thursday, 15 February 2024 10:33:30 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Indyvidual,

You are going round and round, mainly speaking of motives rather than implementation details, and fail to answer a simple Yes/No question:

Would young adults, according to your plan, be forced into your proposed program even if they do not seek the dole or any other welfare support from the state?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 16 February 2024 5:12:38 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
- In any case, he does make a valid point...
"A can guarantee that the crime rate would drop whilst the potential culprits are asleep in camps or dormitories. When they finish their service their new improved mentality will see them on a path they'd not otherwise get to walk."
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 16 February 2024 6:58:07 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yuyutsu,
You're utterly & totally missing the point & you prove again & again why we need such a service.
It is the mentality you put on show that needs rectifying. Using the word "forced" is a totally wrong perception/accusation of what is meant as a character building education away from education !
Anyone with the mentality that doesn't have an aversion to responsibility for the common good & harmony would most definitely not use that word. They'd use the word contribution, as in offering & giving back to the society that has already provided for them. This is to ensure that future generations will turn out much less opportunistic & self-centred than the present ones !
Posted by Indyvidual, Friday, 16 February 2024 9:07:54 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Letting a new generation become adults without some guidance good or not so good is more destructive than even wrong guidance.
Without exposure to discipline, a runaway mentality lured by irresponsible & selfish behaviour has already proven to be the result. If people think this is how they want their young to go down the gurgler then so be it but don't be surprised when others with a better mentality burr up & deliver the valid consequences
Posted by Indyvidual, Friday, 16 February 2024 9:21:43 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Leave it to the family/parents. There is too much government meddling in lives now. Everything governments do that is not part of their narrow core responsibilities always turns out to be disastrous.

The same governments are also responsible for the pressure on parents that prevents them from spending time raising their kids properly.

The last thing this country needs is more government dictatorship. They are already ruining kids in the public school system; and they are totally incapable of providing the guidance that Indyvidual believes is lacking.

And while on the family, Family First is group that will have candidates in the next election. And, no, I don't have any personal connection with them, nor do I give them money. But they are the only group who are for the family - the backbone of society - and basic Australian values.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 16 February 2024 10:06:25 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
ttbn,
Agee with that also & it is now a chicken-egg scenario. What should come first, prevention or retribution ?
I'm a prevention is better than cure kind of bloke. Authorities won't improve until the incompetent are replaced by the guidance that a NS provides. A twelve months Gap year/NS is the solution & not as many claim, an enforced denial of liberty.
Even wild animals have discipline !
Posted by Indyvidual, Friday, 16 February 2024 11:36:34 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"The last thing this country needs is more government dictatorship."
- Then the community needs to do more to look out for the community;
How do we do that when everyone is divided against everyone else?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 16 February 2024 12:34:33 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Indyvidual,

I see that you still go round and round to avoid a simple Yes/No question.

I must therefore assume that your answer is an uncomfortable 'Yes', that your proposal is a form of conscription in every sense except that it does not involve military service.

It is clear from your response that you only care for your "society" and are happy to sacrifice the individuals that constitute it and throw them to the dogs if need be.

You seem to be so deluded to believe that it would be possible for you to snatch and lock up about half a million of innocent children at a time without them and their parents and families resisting, without them breaking free - even with the outside aid of their parents and all others who care for them. You are not even proposing to lock them up in lonely high-security concrete cells that are hard to escape, but to let them work outdoors, building roads and dams, even having access to heavy machinery and yet you think you could find enough guards to stop them escaping.

You think you can stop all the mothers of these children from fighting like lionesses and be even sacrificing their lives in order to save their children?

You consider all young people undisciplined because you do not recognise any other form of discipline except that which would forcibly indoctrinate children with your own particular dogmas.

You think you will prevent these children from becoming criminals, but instead you will create generations of terrorists seeking revenge over the cruel institutions which locked them up as slaves through no fault of their own other than being born in Australia, generators of bitter youths killing their tormentors and blowing up those dams they were forced to build.

Other than terrorists, some normal innocent and disciplined good boys and girls would be helplessly exposed in those camps to the undisciplined juvenile delinquents you speak of and learn their criminal skills from them.

That kind of society you envision or wish to protect, deserves to die!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 16 February 2024 1:08:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
That wonderful example of democracy, Burma - whose military locked up up a 78 year old woman for 33 years because she got more votes than they did - has resurrected its 14 year old conscription law. Males 18-35, three years: females 18-27, 2 years; doctors up to 45, 7 years.

I'm certainly not suggesting that Indyvidual is OK with that sort of thing; nor am I suggesting that an Australian government would be that bad - NOW. But it's what could happen if we, the voters, don't take more notice, and start looking for a much better class of politician than we have now.

If you're interested, Aung San Suu Kyi has been in jail since 2021 - this time - and has had her original sentence reduced from 33 years to 27 years. She is seriously ill, and continues to be denied medical treatment.

We must not let our politicians give themselves more power than they have over our lives, which is too much already. Voters are the ones with the power, if only they will exert it.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 16 February 2024 2:55:05 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The media seems to have lost interest in the Acting Defence Minister and Minister of Defence Personnel's amazing - to me at least - announcement to Channel 9 that the Albanese government is “looking overseas to recruit NON-CITIZENS to join the Australian military”. Pacific Islanders are mentioned. Their governments might have something to say about that.

Enlistment in the ADF requires Australian citizenship, except in a very few circumstances. The ADF is not the French Foreign Legion!

This touches on the use of mercenaries; illegal under international law. But, who the hell knows what out-of-control politicians and bureaucrats can get away with these days.

To paraphrase the 1960s comic, “It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad Australia”.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 16 February 2024 5:06:02 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yuyutsu,
Take a good long look in the mirror & then tell us a NS is not needed !
Posted by Indyvidual, Friday, 16 February 2024 6:16:44 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Indyvidual,

Another irrelevant response, anything but looking us in the face and stating a straight 'Yes' or a straight 'No'.

Are you suggesting perhaps, that despite having been conscripted when young, forcefully snatched from university and being subjected to the harshest military discipline for much longer than your proposed one-year "NS", I am still left without discipline, only because my kind of discipline is not your kind of discipline?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 16 February 2024 6:28:01 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"The media seems to have lost interest in the Acting Defence Minister and Minister of Defence Personnel's amazing - to me at least - announcement to Channel 9 that the Albanese government is “looking overseas to recruit NON-CITIZENS to join the Australian military”. Pacific Islanders are mentioned. Their governments might have something to say about that."

- I'm fairly certain Australia would offer them citizenship.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 16 February 2024 9:39:58 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
forcefully snatched from university and being subjected to the harshest military discipline for much longer than your proposed one-year "NS
Yuyutsu,
How is a Gap year service "snatching" people out of Uni ? Who proposed a "harsh military discipline for longer than the NS of twelve months" ?
Those with a mentality healthier than you could ever comprehend would be role models for the likes of you to learn from.
You keep missing the point of everyone cooperating to have a better society than constantly having to waste time on people like you. Don't you think you'd feel better & have something to look forward to instead of Ground Hog Day ? Try to understand instead of dredging for excuses simply so you can feel you're winning an argument !
Posted by Indyvidual, Saturday, 17 February 2024 12:29:35 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indy,

This is merely a vague thought bubble on your part, can you point to any similar system operating anywhere in the world like you propose? You give absolutely no detail about this idea. Where, when how.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 17 February 2024 5:46:44 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
can you point to any similar system operating anywhere in the world like you propose?
Paul1405,
No, as far as I'm aware & it's high time a Nation took the lead. .Australia could be the Nation that leads the way but it needs Australians not people like you & Yuyutsu et al. Australia is in prime position & prime time to introduce a non Military National Service. Let's sort the excuse confusion & call them MNS & NMNS respectively to make it easier to comprehend for the likes of you.
Perhaps we could have a system in which objectors to common discipline sign a waiver to forfeit the benefits which are provided by those who do care for this Nation not just use it. Rights are earned from supporting them not the other way round.
Posted by Indyvidual, Saturday, 17 February 2024 7:18:32 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"This touches on the use of mercenaries; illegal under international law. But, who the hell knows what out-of-control politicians and bureaucrats can get away with these days."

Yeah, like Israel could be running gas chambers for the Palestinians and that wouldn't cross any red lines with todays western leadership...
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 17 February 2024 7:27:36 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
You give absolutely no detail about this idea. Where, when how.
Paul1405,
Are you seriously expecting it possible to detail the ins/outs of such a scheme in 350 word comments ?
I'm certain that there are people out there who, thanks to common sense, don not need these details spelled out. They can see the benefits without the need of detailing that exposure to discipline will foster discipline. People like you will never get it no matter what because you simply haven't got the mentality ! A NMNS would most definitely help you become a proper Australian.
Posted by Indyvidual, Saturday, 17 February 2024 7:28:05 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indy,

Is there a similar system operating anywhere in the world like you propose. Would it operated in every city, town and village in Australia? who would run it? Got any idea at all?
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 17 February 2024 7:42:26 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
America had a Youth Corps years ago, but I don't think that it exists now. Conscription for Vietnam knocked that sort of thing in the head.

The US, where patriotism has always been higher than the almost zero feelings of patriotism in Australia, hasn't had conscription since 1973. As far as I know, it's not even discussed. Why would Australia do it!

Australia is a badly divided country, run by nitwits and lunatics, that has lost its identity. The ANZAC spirit died half a century ago.

We now have had at least one politician, pissed, laying on the footpath. One of the Teals has called for RBT at Parliament House. Good idea. The way politicians behave in Parliament, the stupid bloody decisions they make, they could all be pissed or drugged out of their tiny minds.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 17 February 2024 7:50:24 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
What Australia needs more than conscription is Donald Trump in the Whitehouse, and someone like him in the Lodge. The thing is, though, the US has Trump; Australia to date has nobody remotely like him. Australia has dangerous idiots working for themselves, hanging on long enough to get a massive pension because they are unemployable in the real world.

Trump had already made a fortune before he went into politics. We have never had anyone rich enough, with brains, of that type here. We are stuck with career politicians with no work or real life experience.

If America and the free world is fortunate enough to get another (undeserved) Trump presidency back, much of the current threats and pressures will disappear
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 17 February 2024 8:15:49 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"Joe Biden's top individual donor is the same top donor to Barack Obama and to Bill Clinton. His name is Heim Saban. He's a Hollywood billionaire mogul who sells trash film to the third world that can't get licensed in the U.S. His big fortune was Mighty Morhin Power Rangers, he produces nothing of value and says he's a one-issue guy and that issue is Israel. He helped set up a parallel lobby to AIPAC which is even more extreme to AIPAC called the Israel Action Committee IAC and his partner for setting that up was the top donor to Trump who funded Benjamin Netanyahu's entire career, Sheldon Adelson, who's late wife now continues his fortune, she just did an odd event with RFK Jr;
- But these people are running the show. Biden is accountable to donors like that or to Seth Klarman who owns Times of Israel, and he is also a single issue guy and that issue is Israel."

http://www.youtube.com/live/H4yKz66vOtw?t=1132
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 17 February 2024 9:06:46 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Conscription should not even be a word in our Dictionary. Either people have the mentality to be part of society or they have not. If they need to be forced to defend themselves & those who provide for them instead of offering to do so then I'd say the sooner they're put under the yoke of those who come for them the better for all of us.
Posted by Indyvidual, Saturday, 17 February 2024 8:59:39 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indy,

Tell the truth, you have not the foggiest notion as how this National Service for young people would work. You can't even give the vaguest of insights, its a "thought bubble" without any concept. Reading your posts over the years its obvious you have a set against young people, among others, and the motive behind your idea is as a form of punishment, for not meeting YOUR expectations.

I have an 18 year old granddaughter, will she be forced into YOUR National Service? What will YOU have her doing? Who will be supervising, YOU? Where will this all take place? Will there be payment, and how much? You have no idea!
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 17 February 2024 9:38:54 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Indyvidual,

Still going round and round:

«Are you seriously expecting it possible to detail the ins/outs of such a scheme in 350 word comments?»

How many words does it take to answer 'Yes' or 'No' to my simple question?

Paul just asked you the same question:
"I have an 18 year old granddaughter, will she be forced into YOUR National Service?"

What is your answer?

«How is a Gap year service "snatching" people out of Uni?»

Some people start university before they turn 18, especially the bright ones and those who received good discipline at home.
Some start a family earlier too.
Some join a monastery earlier.
Some start working earlier.
Some start a business earlier.
Some start caring for their elderly parents or grandparents earlier.

«Who proposed a "harsh military discipline for longer than the NS of twelve months"?»

It is not a proposal - I have actually been there, done that, yet even so you do not consider me sufficiently "disciplined" to your taste, simply because my discipline and values are different to yours and even there with all their efforts, they could make me suffer tremendously but nobody was able to destroy my good values and instead indoctrinate me with your foul dogmas.

«People like you will never get it no matter what because you simply haven't got the mentality!»

Indeed, I do not have you sick mentality.

«A NMNS would most definitely help you become a proper Australian.»

To HELP another means to make it easier for them to get somewhere they want to get, not somewhere they have no wish to go.

I definitely have no interest in becoming what you call a "proper Australian": I certainly won't drink your beer or have anything to do with your stupid sports. Your snobbish idea as if you, just because you happen to be of British/Christian ancestry and adhere to that empty culture, are somehow better and have any more entitlement to live in this continent than others, is disgusting and has no appeal to me whatsoever.

[continued...]
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 17 February 2024 11:13:27 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
[...continued]

«If they need to be forced to defend themselves & those who provide for them instead of offering to do so then I'd say the sooner they're put under the yoke of those who come for them the better for all of us.»

Nobody asked you to defend or provide for anyone - just get out of the way and stop bullying others!

It looks like "the yoke of those who come" is relatively lighter than your proposed yoke:

I have always spoken here against China and its cruelties, but if the fascist kind of life you offer us here is no better than how communist China treats its citizens, if conscription here is no better than conscription there, then I may just as well live under Chinese occupation than under yours.

«Perhaps we could have a system in which objectors to common discipline sign a waiver»

Decent people have no objection to discipline and are likely to be already far more disciplined than yourself.

- They only object to your cruelty and indoctrination.

«to forfeit the benefits which are provided by those who do care for this Nation not just use it.»

You do not even need a waiver for that because you are not obliged to provide benefits to anyone in the first place - just get out of the way with your stupid "Nation" thing!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 17 February 2024 11:13:33 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Thanks Yuyutsu,

My granddaughter 18 is doing a collage course which she started in high school. She hopes to go to America in 2 years time to work and study. She now works part time in a restaurant to make ends meet, run her little old car, pay some board, save etc. AND THIS BLOKE WANTS TO STICK HER IN SOME BOOT CAMP!

p/s Another granddaughter is about to head off with a group of girls and boys to do a 3 months tour through South East Asia.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 18 February 2024 6:15:31 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"I have an 18 year old granddaughter, will she be forced into YOUR National Service?"
Paul1405 & Yuyutsu,
This is a typical parasite question. No, she won't be "forced' just as she is not "forced" to eat, drink, study, listen to music or any other activity. She'll be participating in community-building character-mentality development & if she has more sense than you than that is a bonus she can share with those whom she participates with. The smarter can teach the not so enlightened & the respectful can teach the indisciplined. All this is for a cohesive society living in harmony rather than what is happening lately & now.
She'll learn to identify the present shortcomings, learn that a well-functioning society is a multi-sided symbiosis not an entitlement factory for non-performers & hangers-on because they have a BA. Above all, she'll learn that having a mentality such as you have is what's destroying communities.
Posted by Indyvidual, Sunday, 18 February 2024 7:39:53 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I hope that we can replace “won't be forced” with “would not be forced”, because there is no indication conscription in the future is a ‘given’.

But, of course, the very word ‘conscription’ means forced. People do not volunteer if there is conscription. Volunteering is very rare in modern society, anyway; and why would any young person volunteer to have a couple of years ripped out of their lives?

I'm not sure that females would be conscripted. Apart from not knowing what a woman is, Australian politicians are just as cowardly with feminism as they are with Islam and hate preachers. Males are the docile drones they can push around.

I hope that conscription, or whatever other name is given to it - it would be forced - never raises its head again in this country.

The right people to educate and train young people are loving parents, not politicians, most of whom have never volunteered or done anything for nothing in their mean little lives.

I'm reminded of the ancient Incas, who sacrificed the young to their Gods to improve the weather. It's a wonder that the lunatic Chris Bowen hasn't thought of that.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 18 February 2024 8:29:20 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Ttbn,

Thank you for your support.

«Volunteering is very rare in modern society, anyway; and why would any young person volunteer to have a couple of years ripped out of their lives?»

I actually see many young people volunteering, I see much good will around, I cannot even discard the possibility of young people volunteering some years to help society in ways they are inspired to contribute, but nobody of course would volunteer to be placed in a helpless situation where they can be bullied, shouted at, be forced into bad company and sometimes ordered to do things even against their conscience without being able to leave.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 18 February 2024 9:18:23 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
...to have a couple of years ripped out of their lives?»
ttbn & Yuyutsu,
12 months is now a couple of years ? I do agree with the term & nature of conscription not being a good thing. I think I've stated that a number of times already.
"to educate and train young people are loving parents" again I agree but the evidence over the past 5 decades since removing MNS suggests such parents hardly exist now.
To mollycoddle is not the love of a parent, it's instilling an indisciplined, selfish mentality. Again, I can only go by evidence.
In the hopefully never occurring event of the need to defend this Nation, how do the opponents of discipline propose social & inevitable economic mayhem to be prevented ?
Posted by Indyvidual, Sunday, 18 February 2024 9:48:13 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
There are many young people who suffer from adversity
for a variety of reasons. While we can't change all
of their conditions - such as non-caring disinterested
parents, parents with drug problems, and so many other
factors including poverty - we can encounter and
educate people into how childhood adversity impacts us
throughout our lives and by integrating solutions into
our education, healthcare, justice and economic systems
we just may end up with healthier, inclusive, and
contributing society.

Don't knock it 'till we try it.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 18 February 2024 10:35:35 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual,

As usual, the thread has strayed away from the original topic, as everyone puts in their two bob's worth.

The thread that I started was about military conscription, with young people only, and only young men so far, being the victims of conscription for military purposes.

Now, however, we seem to be talking about a Communist-style re-education of young people whose parents , according to some people, have not done a very good job of raising them.

Well, we have the Communist-style government in the Albanese gang, but I sincerely hope that we never get the re-education package.

You might be overlooking the fact that the people doing the re-education would be the same sorts of people who have encouraged the kids to be the way they are now? Parents, people with no children of their own, unaccountable bureaucrats, progressives etc. - all the types that you and I don't like and wish didn't exist? And the cost would be enormous, as with everything the government does.

It is not the government's place to usurp parents - unless we wish to end up like Communist China or one of the Islamic states. Freedom and democracy is more important than stressing out over kids not being like we were, who will have to grow up pretty quickly away from Mum and Dad and have to compete in the real world. If they don't grow up, they will reap what they sow - or don't sow - and we will be long gone.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 18 February 2024 12:39:47 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Anyone seen the Smith Family adds?

Anyone donating or helping any kids get out of poverty, and
reach their full potential?

How about "bridging the gap?" with Indigenous kids?

Does education and skills training matter with them?

We need to worry less about outmoded relics of the past and
look more to the future.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 18 February 2024 1:52:42 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Aussie, Aussie, born and bred
Be brave and courageous
Not thick in the head!
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 18 February 2024 2:02:00 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Indyvidual,

«No, she won't be "forced' just as she is not "forced" to eat, drink, study, listen to music or any other activity»

Joseph Goebbels would be proud of you!

Like to hear some Goebbels jokes?

At a press meeting Goebbels tells an American journalist: "If Roosevelt had something like the SS, there wouldn't be any Gangsters left in the US!"
The journalist answers: "Of course not. They would all be squad leaders by now."

«12 months is now a couple of years?»

For me it was more and still you won't consider me disciplined...

You think a year in hell would make children disciplined, but I tell you what it will make them: damaged anti-social terrorists who seek revenge against their tormentors!

»the evidence over the past 5 decades since removing MNS suggests such parents hardly exist now.»

Which is indeed why half the world would now like to live in Australia!

«In the hopefully never occurring event of the need to defend this Nation, how do the opponents of discipline propose social & inevitable economic mayhem to be prevented?»

There is never a need to defend any "Nation", only to defend the people who live under that cancer.

Be sure that if the need arises, the people will rise to the occasion and fight, not for your stupid "Nation", but to avoid being subjected to the Chinese "Nation". There are no (or extremely few) "opponents of discipline" here - only opponents of tyranny!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 18 February 2024 2:02:06 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yuyutsu,

Have you read some of the postings on this forum?

Opponents of tyranny?

You mean - proponents.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 18 February 2024 2:05:21 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indy, you old hippy you, flower child and all, it sounds like some kind of commune straight out of the 1960's, a boot camp with free love, and a little weed to sooth those shattered nerves.

"She'll learn to identify the present shortcomings", from whom? YOU!

"(She'll) learn that a well-functioning society is a multi-sided symbiosis not an entitlement factory for non-performers & hangers-on because they have a BA." from whom? YOU!

"She'll learn that having a mentality such as you have is what's destroying communities." from whom will she learn that? YOU!

The Hitler Youth is not dead yet
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 18 February 2024 2:19:03 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Foxy,

You are correct:
There are both proponents and opponents of tyranny in this forum.

Now since you spotted this out, have you perchance spotted anyone here who is an opponent of discipline (as suggested by Indyvidual)?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 18 February 2024 2:53:28 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
For me it was more and still you won't consider me disciplined...
Yuyutsu,
No, you're one of those rare exceptions that prove that nothing is fool proof !

from whom will she learn that? YOU!
Paul1405,
Another No. she'll learn from her observations, the ones you're incapable of making !
Posted by Indyvidual, Sunday, 18 February 2024 3:20:52 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
There are both proponents and opponents of tyranny in this forum.
Yuyutsu,
I don't see proponents, only insipid people who can't distinguish between stupidity & ignorance.
Posted by Indyvidual, Sunday, 18 February 2024 3:22:47 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"You mean - proponents."
- Depends what and who you consider to be tyranny.

You see you think Putins a tyrant.
But Putin doesn't have 800 military bases dotted all over the planet, and he doesn't overthrow the democratically elected leaders of countries in sponsored coups.
You think the west is perfect and pure?
How about America give Syria back the land it occupies and the billions in oil it stole?
How about they bring back the half million Ukrainians they've gotten killed?
How bout the West stop defending a genocidal Israel that is murdering tens of thousands of innocent people?
They could stop the daily weapon shipments today if they wanted.
They talk all this bullcrap about caring for the Palestinians, but the planeloads of weapons Israel uses on them haven't stopped.

Who's the tyrant when the EU threatens economic war on it's own member states (Hungary) because it's desperate to give away EU citizens taxes on this Ukrainian adventure?

Live from MOSCOW, Where Tucker Carlson Got A Cultural SHOCK Lately! Putin’s RUSSIA!
http://www.youtube.com/live/IfjMBG0kJe8
Russia does not want western ideals of celebrating homosexuals.

They are largely Orthodox Christian country, that wants to preserve it's own ideal of gender, family and culture.

Overthrowing other people’s governments: The (outdated) Master List
http://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list

America is owned by Jewish donors, and supports Palestinian genocide and forever wars for military profits.
(Despite claims to the contrary - their actions speak otherwise)
There's nothing at all honourable about what the west has become.

Our leaders are pathetic muppets.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Sunday, 18 February 2024 3:22:56 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Indyvidual,

«I don't see proponents, only insipid people who can't distinguish between stupidity & ignorance.»

I am sorry to hear this.
How about making an appointment with a good ophthalmologist?

---

Dear Critic,

«Depends what and who you consider to be tyranny.»

In this particular context, the desire to snatch other people's children away from whatever they do in life and throw them instead into boot camps where they can be bullied and indoctrinated.

«You see you think Putins a tyrant.»

Foxy and I were discussing the membership of this forum - Putin (to the best of my knowledge) is not a member here.

I know you are eager to discuss about the whole world and even about God's wife, right now, but my time is limited and I cannot spread myself so thin and do it all at once.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 18 February 2024 4:07:03 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
In this particular context, the desire to snatch other people's children away from whatever they do in life and throw them instead into boot camps where they can be bullied and indoctrinated.
Yuyutsu,
That reply is a perfect example of misinformation & hate speech !
Posted by Indyvidual, Sunday, 18 February 2024 7:43:31 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The is almost no national pride left in Australia, one of the reasons there are few, if any, Australians willing to enlist in the ADF. People of military age have had it drummed into them what a terrible place Australia is; serving soldiers have been accused of criminal activities by an Australian Prime Minister before any enquiries, let alone a court case or Court Martial. Who would want to fight for a prick like that! Who would want to fight any of the pricks in Canberra!

Force them into national service of any kind, and resentment will be added to the lack of pride in country, society and self. It doesn't get more toxic - or dangerous - than that. We won't have to wait for a war with a foreign power; we will have a civil war.

I'm old and useless. Were I a youngest again, I wouldn't fight for, or serve in any way, a shite, self-hating society like Australia's.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 18 February 2024 8:45:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
If we were actually at risk of an invasion, I think you'd be surprised how many Aussie blokes would be willing to defend the country on our shores.
- But I don't think that many people would be interested in 'defending the country' if that actually means invading another.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 19 February 2024 8:37:18 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yuyutsu,

Talking about proponents?

All you need to do is read the posts and see for yourself.

As for offering young people the choice of serving?
There are young people who today do join the police force,
the defence forces, and do choose to work in other services
such as hsspitals, and aged care.

There are also people who love and appreciate this country
and would not live anywhere else in the world. It's a question
of values, culture, and what matters to you the most.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 19 February 2024 9:43:12 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Defend this country?

I think that many of us would.
As they always have.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 19 February 2024 9:45:06 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It's a question of values, culture, and what matters to you the most.
Foxy,
Precisely and, those who are not that way inclined for whatever reason most likely due to being shielded from the harshness of reality by do-gooder opportunists pushing parasitism rather than symbiosis. Many ignorant young would highly likely adopt the healthier mentality if only they were offered the opportunity to be exposed to it. It's blatantly obvious that their parents aren't up to providing that. I blame the Tax Laws for that.
Posted by Indyvidual, Monday, 19 February 2024 10:26:02 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Foxy,

«As for offering young people the choice of serving?»

Certainly, no problem so long as it is a CHOICE.

---

«It's blatantly obvious that their parents aren't up to providing that. I blame the Tax Laws for that.»

Selfish parents also stopped sacrificing their children to the Moloch - what will become of us now?
- I blame the Jews and the bicycle riders for that.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 19 February 2024 11:50:21 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"In this particular context, the desire to snatch other people's children away from whatever they do in life and throw them instead into boot camps where they can be bullied and indoctrinated."
- What in Ukraine / Russia?

It was all exposed as a lie a long time ago.
But you lot just keep spoon feeding yourselves propaganda.
- And completely different to what Israel is doing Yuyutsu.

Inside a Russian youth camp condemned by the ICC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDS1OSEIoz8&t=242s

I even watched journalists / interpreters travel all over Donbass and into Russia, even visited these places, without notice.
I've listened to the stories of people who went to them.
- And why would you think I haven't?

I'd show you the footage (as I always add links) but the channel has been taken down.
It had the footage of witness testimony that Ukraine blew up the Mariupol Drama Theatre full of women, kids and elderly themselves to blame on Russia.

Russia just took orphaned kids away from a warzone.
Any parent that truly loved their kids would be grateful, they weren't left to their own devices without food, water or electricity in climates which fall under zero, and underneath bombs.

What would you have preferred?
That Russia left them all to die like the Israelis left those newborns
in Al Shifa, in which case the world would've blamed Putin for their deaths anyway?

I told you all I support ethics.
Saving the kids is in line with that view.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 19 February 2024 1:27:43 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Critic,

«- What in Ukraine / Russia?»

Don't be silly - this particular thread is all about Australia.

You seem to try to draw me into different topics I have no time to address at the moment and use my name there so I will be forced to reply, so being short for time, I will reply in just one word: Theresienstadt.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 19 February 2024 3:00:19 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Ahh - Indyviduals 'boot camps', I get you.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 19 February 2024 3:25:46 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indy,

You say; "Many ignorant young would highly likely adopt the healthier mentality if only they were offered the opportunity to be exposed to it."

You believe young people are "ignorant" for no other reason than they don't embrace your personal norms and social values, which from your postings on the forum appear to be a total hogwash of right wing conservatism.

When you say; "offered the opportunity", you mean brainwashed by people like you into accepting your norms and social values. BTW ,what would be the method of imparting these opportunities, lectures for people like you.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 19 February 2024 8:51:46 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Personally, I don't think this issue is all that hard.
I think we could fine tune a policy that mostly gets us all what we think is best, with just a few small compromises here and there.

We have to stop thinking in terms of 'one persons ideas as opposed to another persons ideas' and instead find a way to accommodate everyone's valid input on the issue.

The easiest way to accommodate peoples concerns is to remove those concerns.
Don't make it compulsory.
It has no prestige if everyone does it, and you're not going to get people who are dedicated to standing under artillery fire by forcing them to do it.

It needs to be an optional program, where the person who does it is rewarded with prestige and and other benefits, on such a level that people WANT to gain that prestige and benefits.
- That they themselves choose to put their hand up for it.

I keep telling you all I think the right formula is 'double dole for full time work' helping the government save money, (or defend itself)
If we were to just get this little piece of policy right - down at the bottom, the benefits would be huge and everything would fall into place.
Think about how many people would not screw their lives up, if only they had a permanent job to go to when they couldn't get another job.

'double dole for full time work'.
'The guaranteed job you have when you can't get another job'.
'not a handout, but a handup, to anyone that wants it.'
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 19 February 2024 9:21:27 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Critic,

I see nothing wrong with your proposal, but I am confused when you mention "standing under artillery fire" where even Indyvidual was speaking of a "non-military service".

A major consideration would be, who would be running this voluntary "employment program", and whether they will consider the good of the young participants paramount or rather the good of the state and national interests.

Should the "campers" be taught by fine musicians (like in the clip you referred us to earlier) to play beautiful classical music in luxurious comfortable hotels, rather than be crawling in the mud under barbed wire, exposed to the elements while constantly being shouted profanities at, threatened, humiliated and deprived of sleep, then I can see Indyvidual pulling out his hairs on seeing how his vision collapsed and purpose reversed.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 19 February 2024 11:30:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Paul1405 & Yuyutsu could literally be the benchmark for the argument in favour of a non-military National Service for a period of 12 months for every 18 year old resident of this Nation.
This period would fit suggly into a so-called gap Year between leaving High School & getting into Uni if capable.
If only for the reduction in teenage crime whilst they are occupied in community orientated tasks this service would be worth implementing for that alone. Opponents please tell why this would not be a positive ? Please, also tell if you'd rather hear success stories or bad News ?
The rot is costing us too much in every way !
Posted by Indyvidual, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 6:36:29 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indy,

Fact, there are around 300,000 people living in Australia aged 18.

"community orientated tasks" for 300k who say require 1 in 20 persons supervision, support assistance and qualified trainers that's a figure of 15,000. Since its universal, those not in easy access of training facilities require accommodation, meals etc. This is impractical and nothing more than a thought bubble. My idea that Australia puts the first man on Pluto is just as practical, if not easier.

You mention "teenage crime" now we get to the nitty-gritty, your negative resentment of young people shows through. You want this to be a form of punishment for bad teenagers.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 8:01:35 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Here again:

At a press meeting Goebbels tells an American journalist: "If Roosevelt had something like the SS, there wouldn't be any Gangsters left in the US!"
The journalist answers: "Of course not. They would all be squad leaders by now."

We must remember why we fight China, why we need those submarines and all - so that our children will be safe from their totalitarian atrocities.

But should that terrible day ever arrive when Australia treats its youth no better than how the Chinese treat theirs, that day I would not only pray for God to stop the rain, but I would also be cheering and waving for the Chinese troops as they march into Australia - and along with me will be hugging the Chinese soldiers millions of young Australian camp-survivors and partisans of their same age.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 8:04:01 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The crime rate for our youth is on the rise.
Young people are floundering. Giving them
training in skills, discipline, goals, is not
punishment. It shows them alternatives, and
what they are capable of achieving if they
make different choices in life.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 8:59:57 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Foxy,

«The crime rate for our youth is on the rise.»

Possibly, from 1% to 2% - is that a valid reason to punish the remaining 98% who are disciplined, skilled and productive to begin with?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 9:03:09 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
""community orientated tasks" for 300k who say require 1 in 20 persons supervision,"

Actually, in the old work for the dole days, the ration was 1 supervisor per 5, and that was considered too low. The cost would be horrendous. Yes it's a thought bubble with precious little thought.

"My idea that Australia puts the first man on Pluto ..."

I think that's illegal.

.....

oh, sorry, you meant the planet!! http://www.pngall.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Disney-Pluto-Download-PNG.png
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 9:27:37 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Yuyutsu,
"A major consideration would be, who would be running this voluntary 'employment program', and whether they will consider the good of the young participants paramount or rather the good of the state and national interests."

It would be a balanced approach, between skills / training and empowering the person at the bottom of the pile to go on to better things outside of this program, and benefiting the government get things done in a manner that saves it money, or uses the taxpayers money in a way that gets them more bang for their buck.

"Should the 'campers' be taught by fine musicians (like in the clip you referred us to earlier) to play beautiful classical music in luxurious comfortable hotels, rather than be crawling in the mud under barbed wire, exposed to the elements while constantly being shouted profanities at, threatened, humiliated and deprived of sleep, then I can see Indyvidual pulling out his hairs on seeing how his vision collapsed and purpose reversed."

They're just kids.
They shouldn't be in a war zone.
Maybe the footage shown isn't representative of all the 'camps'.
But just to see that they have at least one camp like that, should at least give one hope that they are being reasonably well cared for.

As for the likely possibility that these kids would be exposed to a Russian way of thinking rather than a Ukrainian one, well what do you want? If you went with the 'lesser evil' approach, then being exposed to Russian way of thinking is still better than being left in a war zone in minus zero temperatures to freeze, starve or have bombs dropped on them.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 9:45:47 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
You want this to be a form of punishment for bad teenagers.
Paul1405,
Either you're simply too self-absorbed or too insipid to get the gist of the proposal. No-one will be "punished". Any punishment warranted should be carried out by the Judiciary & the only way we can get the Justice system to achieve the improvements that are so sorely needed, a Non-Military National Service (NMNS) will prove a very positive influence early in the piece.
A NMNS can be spread all over from Private enterprise to State run. As everyone would benefit, everyone should participate. The whole idea is to expose near young adults to the trials & tribulations of everyday life. The reason why we have so many idiotic policies is because of highly educated but just as highly ignorant people enforcing bad policies. Hardly any Uni graduates would have any idea about what normal functioning society has to stress about in a standard working day due to such poorly considered policies. Unless of course you point out the policy makers who didn't attend University !
Think of the more switched on young who would influence others to become more switched on instead of entering adulthood as listless Lefties as has been the norm since the Goaf !
Posted by Indyvidual, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 10:02:28 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Foxy,

" Giving them training in skills, discipline, goals, is not punishment."

Totally agree, sustainable and positive with genuine outcomes. But once you make it compulsory its destined to fail. We have no more right to conscript 18 years old than we do 80 year olds, although my SENIORS NATIONAL SERVICE has great potential (ha, ha). This proposal of Indy's is based on his values and social norms, the Hitler Youth was based on Adolf's values and socal norms, same difference. The fact as I pointed out 300,000 18 year olds in Australia, some practical hurdles I do see. "work for the dole" schemes have always been politically motivated, used to "punish" young people for their own failure, not societies failure to them.

p/s Since someone mentioned SENIORS NATIONAL SERVICE do you think 2 cans of beans per week will sustain the typical 80+ year old, or should we make it 3? At a buck a can that's extra $150k per year, could break the budget. AND there is only 150,000 people 80 and over in Oz, what a saving compared to Indy's 300,000! I'm multi-tasking at the moment as well as SNS I.m working on the Oz manned mission to Pluto!
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 10:18:54 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Talking about Russia saving children?

According to the BBC at least 19,500 Ukrainian children
have been deported and forcibly displaced from their
homes to Russia and Russian occupied territories since the
full scale invasion began in Feb 2022 and of those only
388 have managed to return home.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 10:21:41 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Paul,

I'm talking about giving school leavers a chance. Pointing
them in a worthwhile direction. I think the idea should not
be dismissed without discussion.

We are in a collective battle since the pandemic - against
isolation, depression, scarcity of all kinds, political
polarisation and ever growing threats that neither markets
nor governments alone can solve.

Our young people are the future.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 10:39:44 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
>>"work for the dole" schemes have always been politically motivated, used to "punish" young people for their own failure, not societies failure to them.<<
- Exactly, that's why this whole area needs a rethink.
If the problem is that our system creates people that are considered a 'failure', then we need a foolproof system, that catches these 'failures' and gives them every chance to not be considered as such.

We need to build a system that works for them and for us.
One day they will BE us.

'Fair go'
We used to pride ourselves in that.
I'm sure there's plenty kids out there that do want a job, but can't one, or don't have transport etc.
We need to plug these gaps.

The job you have when you don't have a job.
No handout, just a handup,
- and an insurance against falling down.

I'm sure there's plenty kids out there that do want good lives and to get ahead, but they just have absolutely no idea of what they're supposed to do or how to go about achieving it.

We can do better.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 11:30:50 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Associate Professor of National Security and Strategic Studies at Curtin University, Alexey Muraviev, wrote a piece in January in which he said, “Perhaps it is time for Australia to consider another uncomfortable subject - the return of conscription”.

He must have had some hairy chested responses from keyboard warriors. As well as thanking them, he pointed out in another piece this month that, “At no time was I advocating for the return of conscription”. He said that conscription should be a LAST RESORT applied in wartime.

But, even then, it does not guarantee a “quantitative boost” of numerical strength.

The Ukraine experience of general mobilisation shows that drafting people “against their will” is not a “game changer on the battlefield”.

Conscription contributes to “poor morale”, “cases of disobedience” and increasing casualties among “poorly trained, poorly motivated troops.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 12:55:16 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
REMINDER: This thread is about conscription, not child-minding and discipline for kids whose parents haven't raised them properly.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 12:58:47 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
ttbn,
I'm not in favour of conscription but if people don't get their act together soon it may be the only way forward. If they can force us to keep supporting them then we can demand that they had better pull their weight to a reasonable extent.
Man to man or woman to woman or XYZ to XYZ, everyone will need to be able to at least put up a fight once hostile forces head this way. The new invaders will most definitely not have the welfare system that the British invaders eventually established.
Those enemies who are already here face no opposition & they more than likely count on the apathy of the average Australian on display thus far to continue.
Posted by Indyvidual, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 4:33:36 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Come to think of it. If Australia faces an invasion, where would those who don't want to defend this Nation go to claim refugee status ?
Posted by Indyvidual, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 7:21:03 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"If they can force us (us is supporting you) to keep supporting them then we can demand that they had better pull their weight" Absolutely Indy, and the sooner we get the old folk out of 'Gods Waiting Room' an into a SENIORS NATIONAL SERVICE for those of your ilk with their snout in the taxpayer funded trough all's the better! You'd be up for a little light duties working on the "Seniors Road Gang". How many of the 300,000 18 year old's in Australia do you propose to press ganged into your national service? According to you, all 300,000.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 8:06:52 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Paul1405,
No need to get so desperate trying to prove your silliness, you've convinced us long ago.
Posted by Indyvidual, Tuesday, 20 February 2024 9:51:23 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indy,

You refuse to answer the simplest of questions about your 18 years old's doing National Service. You said it would be mandatory for ALL of that age, I point out the fact there are around 300,000 people at the moment aged 18 in Australia. I asked how with so many is national service possible, you clam up, you don't have an answer. During the Vietnam War conscription, the intake of males per ballot was about 7,000, 300,000 makes YOU look like the fool.

BTW, with the increased defence spending announced by the government, particularly for the Navy, the Navy will require 5,000 extra personal a number the Navy believes will be difficult to recruit.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 21 February 2024 6:02:43 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
how with so many is national service possible,
Paul1405,
You really are a tiresome mutt at times. What are they doing about these 300,000 now ? They give them unemployment etc benefits without any logistical difficulty. Stop looking at the scheme as a business of the day with instant profits. Start it is the main thing & it all will fall into place. This is a generational scheme that will very quickly turn into a self-supporting character building machine. There'll be requirements for overseers, food & accommodation etc etc. All this will generate economic benefits for everyone. There's even the real possibility of careers within the system. The main thing is to get young people exposed to a period outside their comfort zone & with some luck many will start thinking of themselves as needed. They could do work that can not be done economically by award wages people. The whole aim being to prevent the young from becoming like you with your mentality. The opposers of character building should realise that the benefits of a NMNS won't suddenly materialise on Day1 but once kick-started it'll snowball as most people are of better character than you.
After a couple of years there won't be a need for conscription as many will have enough sense to realise how life actually works. No input, no reward ! Symbiosis is the word !
Now, back to the topic !
Posted by Indyvidual, Wednesday, 21 February 2024 7:06:32 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indy,

"What are they doing about these 300,000 now? They give them unemployment etc benefits without any logistical difficulty." What a load of rot! The vast majority of 18 year old's are NOT on the dole, they are NOT committing crime or partaking in anti-social behaviour. The vast majority of young folk at that age are, studying, pursuing careers, adventuring, exploring life, getting a start. Then an old fart like you, who has an axe to grind about young people, did one snatch your wallet or something, bangs on about an impractical thought bubble you've had. Its punishment, because you want to take away from young folk the good things I have mentioned and impose YOUR will on them. YOU have no more right to conscript 18 years old than I do to conscript you 80 year old into my 'SENIORS NATIONAL SERVICE'(Joke). Mate be practical and answer a few basic questions.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 21 February 2024 7:45:47 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indy

"They could do work that can not be done economically by award wages people." AND what are those jobs? Can't be road repairs, because the conscripts in my SNS will be doing that. As these young folk are as yet un-skilled, you will have them doing menial labouring job (cheap, sound like "work for the dole"), or maybe they can do brain sugary (cheap, "work for the dole") on some of my truculent old nasho's who step out of line!

BTW when my granddaughter was 15 she asked if she could cut my hair, she had watched it done on YouTube, ahhhhhhhh! Judging by her hair cutting ability at 15, I don't think she should be performing brain surgery at 18, no matter how cheap she works.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 21 February 2024 8:13:12 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Paul1405,
You're definitely the most insipid bolshie on OLO & the really sad part is that you don't even know why !
Posted by Indyvidual, Thursday, 22 February 2024 7:44:58 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual,

Go easy on yourself, mate. Nutjobs only keep having a go at you because you keep responding to them. They are silly, sad creatures constantly seeking attention. Don't give them any is my motto.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 22 February 2024 8:31:12 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indy,

The other old octogenarian is trying to sooth your busted ego, good luck. Since I don't agree with your conscripted national service, you call me a Bolshie, I'll have you know I was never a member of the Bolshoi Ballet. Saying that, what does that make those who agree with you? Nazi's.

I lampoon you because your idea of a conscripted national service for all 18 year old's is nonsense. YOU didn't even realise there are about 300,000 people aged 18 in Australia, until I told you. Its a "thought bubble" of yours and nothing more, coming from an old bloke who clearly has never done any kind of national service himself. When I was about 19 and protesting both the war in Vietnam and conscription, the only cohort that was in favour of forced militarism were the old farts, and that was because like YOU, they knew they'd never have to do it themselves.

p/s How about coming up with a plan that will save us taxpayers $30 billion in Aged Welfare payments.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 22 February 2024 3:51:04 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Paul1405,
Judging by your rhetoric it may be an idea to check what your role was in the Robodebt fiasco !
Posted by Indyvidual, Friday, 23 February 2024 7:25:36 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indy,

'Robodebt' was a vindictive and hateful scheme imposed by the NOALITION government on people like YOU, for ideological reasons. The same NOALITION mob the likes of you vote for.

I ask you a practical question about your National Service for 18 years old, and you can't answer. YOU expect the answers to come from someone else. The fact is YOUR scheme would have zero support in the community.

I ask again; You said "They could do work that can not be done economically by award wages people." And I asked; What are those jobs?

If you can't answer a simple question like that, it shows your scheme is nothing more than a pie in the sky, thought bubble.

According to you, asking questions of you makes me a communists.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 23 February 2024 7:58:26 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
According to you, asking questions of you makes me a communists.
Paul1405,
What a stupid remark. Stupid questions & stupid remarks are what makes you that. How many more times do you need to have it told that a NMNS is not a career, it is a step towards acquiring a sense of responsibility which in turn will go a long way towards a rewarding career in adult life.
Picking up rubbish, cleaning graffiti, keeping Parks tidy, in fact ANYTHING that unskilled inexperienced can do to gain skills & experience. A sense of responsibility will turn out to be a skill just as experience will improve skill. The whole point is to do something worthwhile that'll eventually lead to a mentality that sees those experiences as worthwhile. With every tiny degree of experience, young people will build a much healthier mentality than you could ever comprehend and, unlike you, they'll come to appreciate the value of a healthier mentality. Remember outfits such as the Scouts etc ? Cleaning the yards for old people, helping in soup kitchens etc. Every community has small jobs that can be done. The insipid notion of laying it all out up front doesn't make it work. Going there, look what needs to be done & then do it is the motto. A gang of misguided by their parents & the likes of you teens, will not cause damage to property or harm to others whilst they are in a Bush camp or otherwise occupied. That is the whole point !
Posted by Indyvidual, Friday, 23 February 2024 8:42:06 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Would be 'thread starters' on OLO need to be aware that their topics will inevitability be trashed by a couple of idiots conducting silly arguments that concern only them and their egos.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 23 February 2024 8:58:03 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indy,

Slow as it is, we are making progress in uncovering what you propose your CONSCRIPTED ARMY of 18 years involves.

You said it would be compulsory for ALL 300,000 people aged 18 to take part in your National Service for a period of a year, logistically that's about 800 to 1,000 new recruits daily and the same number exiting the scheme daily hummmmm.

Then its the "work"involved, simply free menial labour for others, "Picking up rubbish, cleaning graffiti, keeping Parks tidy, in fact ANYTHING that unskilled inexperienced can do to gain skills & experience." What skills & experience will my granddaughter gain by picking up rubbish! She is doing a collage course presently to gain skills for a career. She doesn't need to pick up rubbish for a year to make her a better person.

You have it in your head that ALL teenagers are misguided misfits involved in crime and antisocial behaviour. That is a small minority otherwise why would you want to punish all teenagers with your compulsorily national servitude. Wake up, some old fart that some kid did him a disservice at some time, now he wants to punish the lot with his hate inspired scheme. Good luck with that!
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 23 February 2024 2:30:53 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Well nothing's ever going to change so long as we have morons running the show.
Here's my official gripe for the day:

Not Even The Ukrainians Want To Live In Ukraine

Thousands of displaced Ukrainians in Australia on temporary humanitarian visas risk being left in limbo
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-23/ukrainians-australia-displaced-humanitarian-visa/103498964

>>We have people now who have been here for over two years. They want to know what the future is," said Stefan Romaniw, co-chair of the Australian Federation of Ukrainian Organisations (AFUO).

He said current options to apply for permanent residency are challenging for many in the community due to obstacles such as age limits, recognition of qualifications, English skills assessment and sponsorship limitations.

"Give them stability and dignity to be able to create their new lives in Australia," he said.
Marta Artamenko and her daughter Khrystyna are among those who face an uncertain future.
The pair fled their home city of Kyiv in February 2022 when the Ukrainian capital was attacked by Russian forces.
Weeks later, they arrived in Sydney where they were granted temporary humanitarian visas."

So what the hell are we sending Ukraine money and weapons for if they don't even want to live there anymore?
And if we (not me but all of you) really support this conflict then why don't we send this woman and her 17 year old daughter back to Ukraine so they can be conscripted into the military like all the other women?
If this is what we... scratch that - all of you lot - support...

And how do they get 'humanitarian' VISA's living in Kiev? it's not like they were living in areas that are now under Russian control and had to flee?
Why are they so special compared to all the other Ukrainian women and kids still living in Kiev?
What are they, family of government officials?
What bs humanitarian grounds did they claim?
And why did Australia sign off on it?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 23 February 2024 4:15:08 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Last time CONSCRIPTION operated in Australia, was by a COALITION government, Little Johnny Howard was a great advocate for CONSCRIPTION, but he managed to avoid national service himself, seems dying in a far off land was for someone else not Little Johnny. The young Australians that CONSCRIPTION didn't kill in Vietnam, it managed to turn many of a generation of young men into drug dependent, manic depressives, hell bent on suicide. We have a COALITION government to thank for that.

CONSCRIPTION is like CONSTIPATION, no one wants it! Sorry, except some old bloke who could never be conscripted himself.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 23 February 2024 11:06:23 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
What is the alternative to conscription with mindless demographic ?
Posted by Indyvidual, Saturday, 24 February 2024 10:04:51 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
What is the alternative to conscription with mindless demographic ?
- non-conscription with a mindless demographic?
(not sure we can do anything about the 'mindless demographic' part)

and non conscription means 'people have to choose to do it'
- So we've got to build a platform where its easy for them to choose to do it, a system where they WANT to do it
- Which also means you have to give them 'prestige' for doing it
- Great rewards and incentives, and they have to believe in it.

And if you want people to fight and die for our country
- Then you may want to stick to the 'defend our country' part, and try to stay away from the 'invade other countries' part.

Just thoughts.

I think it all comes together, great possibilities
With a simple 'double dole for full time work helping the government save money' scheme.
'The job you have when you don't have a job'
- So when people go through hard times they don't lose everything and end up in the system requiring taxpayer funded support and counseling.
- Drugs, alcohol, marriage breakdown due to financial stress etc.
Turn a government expense into a break-even.
Why pay someone x-amount if you can pay 'x times 2' and get a full time worker?
Earn 'training credits' to upskill.
Capitalism requires a 5% unemployment rate to maintain a pool of job applicants to prevent wage growth.
- Give those people looking for work an alternative.
- Get your workshift and information about the tasks via an app
- Have digital resumes where qualifications can't be faked, and which determine ones eligibility for a particular workshift, depending on skill level.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 24 February 2024 12:11:41 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yep, I can see the add now!

GET YOURSELF CONSCRIPTED!
THE INDY NATIONAL SERVICE!
Learn A Great New Skill
Like: Picking Up Other Peoples GARBAGE.
Cleaning Up Other Peoples CRAP.
AND get paid For it At The same Time.
ALMOST HALF THE AWARD WAGE!
Get To meet Other Poor Bastards Doing
The Same Thing! "MAKE A MAN OF YOU!"
WASTE A YEAR OF YOUR LIFE!
Conscripted Into The
INDY NATIONAL SERVICE.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 24 February 2024 1:34:32 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
MAKE A MAN OF YOU!"
WASTE A YEAR OF YOUR LIFE!

Paul1405,
The first is clearly impossible in your case & the second raises the question of what do you with the oxygen you steal from us ?
Posted by Indyvidual, Saturday, 24 February 2024 6:04:52 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
«What is the alternative to conscription with mindless demographic ?»

Such as goats?
- You milk them!

Most humans do have a mind of their own!
Yes, I am referring to that very bit which Indyvidual wishes to cut off so then he can milk us.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 24 February 2024 9:12:49 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual- I see no problem with introducing some basic standardized physical exercise and marching and military discipline at high school and primary school and demonstrating respect to the Australian flag, some lectures on Australian military ranks and divisional structure. Training at least at the level of Reserves Basic Training. If this goes well could look at more advanced Basic Training and perhaps infantry tactics. In the French Revolution there was whole of society mobilization with requirements for basic firearms training for over 12's (interesting that the proto-Communist revolutionaries see National Service as important but "modern" woke often promote the opposite). Even in the modern age technology has limitations- there is still a capability need for "boots on the ground". Freedom is not free. The threat of China perhaps show that open university research models weaken national security.
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 25 February 2024 2:10:31 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Canem Malum,

We are so afraid and disgusted of China for the very reason that it forcibly conscripts its people, the young for the army, the older for other projects.

Why should anyone try to stop China or have any respect for your flag, if that flag stands for a regime no better, no less oppressive than the Chinese one?

"Freedom is not free" because some evil oppressors grab away the freedom of others, and if you be among those evil thugs, then don't be surprised when the next "French Revolution" will be against your own regime and led by the same military-trained youth you trained and tormented!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 25 February 2024 5:28:39 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
CM,

Just add a 303 rifle and you have the 'School Cadets' something I refused to "volunteer" for in my 2nd year of high school, me and one other boy, out of around 60 or more students. The Cadet Master, a cleric, and later a convicted paedophile, then tried to make my life hell. I do believe he was convicted of sexually abusing young boys on school cadet camps. Yep, nothing like the "School Cadets", to make a man of yah! As for the French Revolution, I'm sure if you didn't "volunteered" they guillotined your head. "boots on the ground" CM, your perfect totalitarian state run by a dictator, sounds like North Korea!

Wow, its strange, the kind of people you admire!
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 25 February 2024 6:12:35 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Well done, Paul!

«I refused to "volunteer" for in my 2nd year of high school, me and one other boy, out of around 60 or more students.»

That is what true heroes are made of!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 25 February 2024 8:11:05 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Why do the silly always bring up China when reference to an "enemy" is made ? Or, bring up weapons whenever reference to discipline is made ?
Has stupidity really already taken over so much ? The objection to responsibility to living in a symbiotic society must simply drive the fear of God into the insipid parasitic.
The greatest "enemy" to society are the insipid as in our example here. A platoon of Chinese warriors couldn't do as much damage to our society as these woke mutts have caused. It's mass suicide in disguise !
Posted by Indyvidual, Sunday, 25 February 2024 8:41:03 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Yuyutsu,

They canned the other poor kid senseless, poor Andrew, a big lad, and the least academic in our year. Finally they were able to expel Andrew, when during one of the regular canning sessions Andrew had, had enough, and with a shout of "that's enough brother" Andrew let fly with a haymaker on that dear "Brother of Love and Kindness", expulsion was the remedy for the Andrew "problem". Paul was a bigger problem for the sadistic Catholic clergy.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 25 February 2024 8:43:25 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Give people power and give people freedom. Give the power to government make people slaves (John Anderson).
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/anderson-john/#5.5

There needs to be a balance between the power of governments and the people otherwise either governments will become arrogant or the people will become fractured.

In the west and Europe governments have been allowed to dominate over the will of the people for one hundred years- even more so in "peoples states".

As all arguments degrade into forms of force- when people are denied the ability to act with force even to protect their very lives- the people are degraded to slaves.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 25 February 2024 9:02:51 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The people seem to give up their power to government because of fear- which just makes them slaves- you can't avoid fear through ignorance only by facing it and planning for it.

The good news is that people always have power even if they forget it for a while- and even if tyrannical governments repress their pride and self sufficiency. A wise leader will guide their friends- not through force- as brothers in arms- as a force of nature an example of the eternal in courage and self directed adaptability. Respecting the traditions of their ancestors on their lands.
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 25 February 2024 9:16:10 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
governments will become arrogant or the people will become fractured.
Canem Malum,
Precisely, we are experiencing that now by having both and, compounded by indoctrination in our supposed education system.
Our resident examples of this dreadful trend could be the poster boys/girls characters for the argument against continuing on that path. Merit has to pull way more weight if we want to save a bit of the sanity that's still about.
Posted by Indyvidual, Sunday, 25 February 2024 10:09:07 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Kudos Indyvidual.
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 25 February 2024 10:44:59 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Instead of nonsense talk about youth military conscription, and pie in sky rubbish about teenage national service, kids picking up rubbish for old farts. People should be giving kudos to the 'Australian Universities Accord Report' and the prospect it offers for a better future, with a more educated population enriching Australia through skill development. The future for the young is in education, not cleaning some old farts dunnie! Read the report, see what it says, and then you will hopefully see a better way. Of course the intelligent contributors like Foxy and Steele already know a better future lies in education, and not in some pack-drill in a boot camp!
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 26 February 2024 5:04:28 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Paul,

«a better future lies in education, and not in some pack-drill in a boot camp!»

What is good, or "better", varies greatly between people.

It is not that Indyvidual isn't aware of what education is likely to bring - he just doesn't want that particular outcome. The outcome he is after, is for young people to adhere to his nationalist agenda and be slaves to his "nation" thing. We all know that education takes us further from that outcome.

Mind you, I probably also differ from you, perhaps not as much as Indyvidual, but still, on what constitutes a "better future".
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 26 February 2024 6:13:25 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
«a better future lies in education, and not in some pack-drill in a boot camp!»
Yuyutsu,
That's been the catch-cry for longer than than anyone can remember yet when will we get to see the proof ?
Less than a handful of "educated" are actually worth half the salaries they're on. The majority are mere hangers-on recalcitrants biting the hands that feed them. To enlighten young misguided people re the responsibilities of daily life is not a sacrifice as you like to portray it.
Those who are not that fortunate not to have been misguided by the likes of you & Paul do not object to do their part in society. They realise that the likes of you two need to be made to understand that merit accounts for way more than some indoctrinated me, me mentality ! These few smart young people will not shy from helping to spread the sense of responsibility, They'll embrace the opportunity to counter the opportunistic mentality you & Paul et al are trying to instil..
As I keep saying, a well-functioning society is a symbiosis ! If you have evidence to the contrary please tell. Tell, where have more people sacrificed their lives, in well run Nations or in the ones you want us to live in ?
Posted by Indyvidual, Monday, 26 February 2024 7:24:37 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Yuyutsu,

I believe education is a tool that improves ones aspiration to "self happiness". I suggest exploring the teachings of Buddha as to what fulfilment in life really means. The difference between Indy, and I suspect you, and myself is the notion that the state, and contributing to the betterment of the state as a whole is more important than the happiness of the individual. I don't support anyone who through selfishness diminishes the happiness of others. First and foremost Indy wants to "punish" youth (he wont admit it) for what he perceives as their short comings. His notion is based on his own self and not others.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 26 February 2024 7:44:59 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Speaking of "education", a report has been released paving the way for even more idiots to attend university to be brainwashed. Albanese is trying to emulate his hero, Whitlam, who wanted everyone to go to university free of charge. Albanese knows that won't wash , so he is looking at all sorts of costly-to-the-taxpayer ways of getting 80% of Australians tertiary brainwashed by 2050, including people identifying as underprivileged, the poor, the dumb. Glad I won't be around then.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 26 February 2024 7:51:24 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"Education" has been the catch-cry for yonks yet where is the evidence of any success ?
Whatever progress has been made is largely by ordinary people's tinkering in back sheds. Yes, there are great examples of Uni research but generally speaking, the costs are always a thousandfold against benefit for the average citizen. The only winners are those in Govt & Academia where their merit is not questioned hence the immoral salaries for many non-contributors. The average citizen gets fleeced to the last Cent as always even though many are of far greater value to society than these experts.
Posted by Indyvidual, Monday, 26 February 2024 9:05:17 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Associate Professor of education policy and the
future of schooling at the University of Melbourne
Glenn C. Savage writes - "The report is clear that
our schools are riddled with inequalities that must
be urgently addresses to tackle entrenched and
compounding disadvantage."

He says that "Schools must be properly funded and
disadvantaged schools need extra support."

He also adds that " While it's good that ministers have
committed to working together to increase all schools to
100% funding under the Gonski model, we should remember
that this base-level is the absolute minimum that we should
aspire towards and some schools need much more."

The professor wants a much more bolder agenda to be
implemented.

He claims that: "If we fail to implement bolder measures
we will continue to fall behind to performing nations like
Singapore and Canada which don't shy away from delivering
better and fairer elements of a great education."

He says that "Without a more ambitious agenda Australia risks
yet another decade of tinkering around the edges and does
not address the root causes of our educational challenges."

The Professor has raised some valid points. Hopefully
something positive will come out of all this for the
disadvantaged youngsters - living in disadvantaged areas
and regional parts of the country.

At least the ministers will be working together to achieve
something positive. I watched the Minister for Education
being interviewed on the "Insiders," on Sunday. He sounded
positive and has high hopes that they will succeed in
addressing the complex issues.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 26 February 2024 9:05:27 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Glenn C. Savage writes
Foxy,
The next Professor Peter Ridd ?
Posted by Indyvidual, Monday, 26 February 2024 9:06:59 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Indyvidual,

Peter Ridd may be able to influence the think tank - The
Institute of Public Affairs, but not sure about the government.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 26 February 2024 12:02:03 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Indyvidual,

--»a better future lies in education, and not in some pack-drill in a boot camp!«--
«That's been the catch-cry for longer than than anyone can remember»

The credit for it goes to Paul.

«Less than a handful of "educated" are actually worth half the salaries they're on»

That line of thought seems to explain your other ideas: if people's worth can be measured in money, then that legitimises enslaving, conscripting and "enlightening" people to recognise and obey their masters.

«As I keep saying, a well-functioning society is a symbiosis»

Research into what makes "a well-functioning society", first requires an agreement as to the desirable function of society. I don't believe we have one.

---

Dear Paul,

«I believe education is a tool that improves ones aspiration to "self happiness"»

I agree, but I don't think that schools and universities usually provide education. Some are lucky to have an outstanding teacher who does, but not as a rule. Rather, schools and universities teach people how to cope in a modern world - that is mitigation, not education.

As far as happiness goes, we seem to agree.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 26 February 2024 1:25:19 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual- There are people on this forum that are anti-nation, anti-culture, anti-tradition, anti-future for my people, anti-white, Anglophobic, pro-genocide, anti-self determination, pro-authoritarian, pro-slave morality, pro-envy, pro-universalist, pro-victim, anti-ethnicity...

If intelligent people don't want to spend all their time cleaning we can find more efficient ways to clean- without giving these low jobs to people of low culture (as the woke would have us do). Some of us value self sufficiency- and self determination- that is my culture- there are no bad jobs only bad people. I don't want other cultures feeding off of my culture- just as I don't want to feed off other cultures. Doesn't mean that I don't occasionally want to watch a Chinese film- but I don't want to engage with an artificial multiculturalism- enforced by the woke fashion police.

Universities have slowly acquired roles traditionally reserved for distributed tradesmen and tradeswomen in training apprentices- this has given them centralized power- unchecked by natural human hierarchical processes and structures- universities were traditionally for professionals. University arrogance and dominance and tyranny has become a harmful influence in society- that needs to end. University power needs to be broken down and distributed throughout the community based on some sort of subsidiarity. Democracy is based on the principle of distribution of power. Engineers need to be spending a larger proportion of their training on the job and in the laboratory to understand the needs of their community rather than dictating to the community. Doctors need to be spending a higher proportion of their training interacting with patients, enrolled nurses were trained under the apprenticeship programs separate from the power of universities, etc. A juxtaposition of academic community detachment concurrent with the community voice in the media is absurd.

Universities seem to hold students and society as ideological hostages to their arbitrary woke whims.

But Western nations have long functioned under the auspices of the Westminster System and the Principle Of Separation Of Powers.

Down with the world university dictatorship that is loyal only to themselves. End the university manufacture of consent and censorship
Posted by Canem Malum, Monday, 26 February 2024 3:04:27 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
There are also those that overpopulate their own nations then want to populate the nations of others.
Posted by Canem Malum, Monday, 26 February 2024 3:38:39 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
One thing desperately needed in tertiary education is a return to Teachers' Colleges where learning how to actually teach was part of the qualification.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 26 February 2024 3:47:18 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"self happiness"
Paul1405 & Yuyutsu,
At the cost of other's happiness ? For integrity-devoid at the cost of diligent & responsible citizens ? I think you're confusing opportunity with opportunistic.
We can see it playing out in recent & present wars where those of defending age are seeking refuge in countries which send plenty of aid to defend but many choose to leave their fellow citizens to the unenviable task whilst they themselves start demonstrations here in safety & housed & fed by the host Nation.
Posted by Indyvidual, Monday, 26 February 2024 6:11:31 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Indyvidual,

There is a fundamental difference between not making you happy and taking your happiness away, between not defending you and taking away your defence.

Nobody owes you either happiness or protection.
If someone chooses to protect you, then be happy and at least say "Thank you".
If they choose not to, then look in the mirror and investigate why you and/or your organisation(s) are not deserving of protection.

Nobody has to love you either.
If some do love you, then rejoice and be grateful.
If nobody does, that does not give you a right to demand that those of loving age must come and satisfy your desires.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 26 February 2024 10:49:30 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Nobody owes you either happiness or protection.
Yuyutsu,
Granted however, people, Leftists in particular, do demand & expect others to respect their 'Rights" & "entitlements". That being the case gives or at least should give the provider Rights also, the "Right" to demand the provided for also contribute. Ideological philosophical rhetoric may sound warm'n fozzy but that's all it is.
Posted by Indyvidual, Monday, 26 February 2024 11:21:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
A laughable quote from Indy,

"progress has been made is largely by ordinary people's tinkering in back sheds"....I think he believes nonsense like that.

Both the extreme right and left, have a distorted view of the mass of ordinary people, what the Communists refer to as "the proletariat" some noble class making up the bulk of humanity. People like CM, see this mass as a group to be controlled, a mass of people to serve his totalitarian police state run by a dictator. These guys see education as a danger to their well ordered society, a new group of thinking people which threatens their dominance and control. That is why the extreme always fear education as they are aware of the consequences it brings for themselves.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 27 February 2024 4:59:45 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
These guys see education as a danger to their well ordered society, a new group of thinking people which threatens their dominance and control.
Paul1405,
Totally & utterly without substance. On the contrary, it's the Academic elite or rather the sector of Academia that produces nothing but disruptive nonsense such as wokeness & PC. Just read your own replies ! They're the ones getting jittery as soon as someone draws attention to their uselessness & they panic when they can't produce any evidence of merit. That's why I keep saying think symbiosis not parasitism !
Posted by Indyvidual, Tuesday, 27 February 2024 7:00:45 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual,

People who've lost so much having lived through wars
came to realize the importance of education which
they passed onto their children. Education to them was
something no one could take away. It's something that
helps us reach our full potential, teaches us the skills
for the job we want, helps us figure out how to make
things and find solutions to different problems.

Studying is hard work. Especially if
you're working full time and trying to raise a family.
But it is well worth the effort. And on Graduation
some may be lucky enough to hear the words shouted -
"That's MY Mum!" echoing through the auditorium.

And being considered "elite?" Not sure about that.
Most students and faculty members simply get on with
getting things done to the best of their abilities
and breathe a sigh of relief when the job is done.
It's mainly hard work - not elitism. Made even harder
with cut backs in funding.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 27 February 2024 8:37:00 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Foxy,
I don't disagree totally. There's education & then there's education. I'm not & never will be convinced that the past/present system of education for education's sake is the answer.
We must educate people to their level of competence so they can be of benefit to society & themselves. To keep pushing them into incompetence is what we're coping with now.
That's why if we don't pull our socks up, conscription will be re-introduced out of pure necessity
People need to be able to differentiate between their own limits & competence rather than a simplistic "Right". If it comes to defend this country we'll need everyone to chip in not just the handful of naturally common sense folk, the useless will be of some use too once they're made to see the alternative.
Posted by Indyvidual, Tuesday, 27 February 2024 9:28:09 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual,

I don't understand who you see as "useless." Everyone
is capable of learning and achieving. I have a firm
belief in that. "useless" should not be part of our
vocabulary or thinking. People can and do surprise.
I could not try to dim someone else's light to make
myself shine brighter. I would try to enhance their
light to shine even more. But then I've been lucky
enough to have some excellent and inspiring teachers.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 27 February 2024 9:48:58 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Indyvidual,

«people, Leftists in particular, do demand & expect others to respect their 'Rights" & "entitlements".»

Indeed, it is wrong to do so, though not anywhere near on the scale of severity to what we were discussing earlier.

«That being the case gives or at least should give the provider Rights also, the "Right" to demand the provided for also contribute.»

Very true - so long as the one who was provided for was given the option to refuse that provision.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 27 February 2024 1:30:41 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
so long as the one who was provided for was given the option to refuse that provision.
Yuyutsu,
Under ideal conditions for individuals, yes ! When another force threatens or even invades a Nation with degrading the existing living standards then different issues arise. That's when conscription comes into play where everyone capable of defending the Nation they live in/off has a moral duty to help their fellow citizens to help defend the nation. Somehow I doubt that real Australian would seek refuge somewhere else but would chose to stay & do their bit instead. Australia's focus needs to be on the enemies already residing here. Europe is making moves now.
Posted by Indyvidual, Tuesday, 27 February 2024 8:23:41 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Indyvidual,

«where everyone capable of defending the Nation they live in/off has a moral duty to help their fellow citizens to help defend the nation.»

No problem if you like to discuss morality and moral duties, that would be a change of direction and Hinduism has so much to say about it, including about the who, when and how, has a moral duty to serve their country (and it may not be as straightforward as you think).

Moral duties are personal - each one ought to perform their own moral duties, not others'.

The Bhagavad Gita says:

"It is far better to perform one’s natural prescribed duty, though tinged with faults, than to perform another’s prescribed duty, though perfectly. In fact, it is preferable to die in the discharge of one’s duty, than to follow the path of another, which is fraught with danger." [Bhagava-Gita 3:35]

Nobody can force another to perform their moral duties, simply because when one is being forced and physically goes through the motions of performing their duties without believing in them, without choosing to perform them of their own volition, that does not count at all as fulfilling their duties, that does not please God, that does not give them any merit whatsoever!

Forcing another to do something, even if doing the very same actions willingly would have happened to be the other persons' moral duty, is not only not doing the other person any favour, but is a form of violence, whereas non-violence in Hinduism is considered the first and foremost tenet of morality.

When forcing another to do what would otherwise been their duty, you harm them not only physically and emotionally (as the case may be), but also spiritually because by doing so you disturb their ability to choose the same actions willingly and gain their spiritual merit accordingly.

[continued...]
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 27 February 2024 10:58:44 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
[...continued]

When an organised body, such as a state (but it could also be a family, a clan, a tribe, or a trade-union, etc.) forces its members to act against their will, sometimes even against their conscience and values, that detracts from the moral legitimacy of that organised body, and being illegitimate, I for example as well as other conscientious people, would refuse to serve it in its time of need, instead praying for its fall.

Consider carefully which could contribute more to your country: the forced use of kids as cannon-fodder (on top of the majority of young people who would happily volunteer because they share your cause), who will therefore hate you, who would not do their duties diligently and would be likely to rebel, sabotage your efforts and equipment, betray and discourage their volunteering companions and even side with your enemy, that along my curses and prayers for your country's fall - or instead my own good advice (being too old to fight in person, as well as the volunteering of others who are younger), moral support and prayers for your success... think carefully!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 27 February 2024 10:58:50 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Moral duties are personal - each one ought to perform their own moral duties, not others'.
Yuyutsu,
Of course, no-one's saying otherwise apart from those trying to distort the issue. To have the sense of duty to help defend the nation that harbours you is not performing a personal moral duty to help others. It's a moral duty to defend the Nation & thereby everyone including yourself is benefitting. No such nonsense words like deprivation of liberties or forced boot camp etc etc. If people are not comfortable with doing their bit then they should not expect others to bow to their demands for their "rights" ! Many of us had a life of working in jobs we didn't like yet the taxes we paid are squandered on people who reject work on grounds of it being not what they want or are not capable of. That nonsense has to stop soon.
Posted by Indyvidual, Tuesday, 27 February 2024 11:44:20 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
According to Nehru- Gandhi made it a habit to read the Bhagavad Gita during his morning duties. Does that mean we should all read on the toilet in India. I don't see how a Traditional Indian text is relevant to the majority of the Australian people.
Posted by Canem Malum, Wednesday, 28 February 2024 12:19:34 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Indyvidual,

«To have the sense of duty to help defend the nation that harbours you is not performing a personal moral duty to help others. It's a moral duty to defend the Nation»

For some it is, not for all and not under all circumstances.

Also, defending can take many forms, not necessarily joining an army.

Now if a state is corrupt, if a state forces good people against their will to serve it or to attend camps and the like, whose only "crime" was to be born, then that state is undeserving and then one's moral duty becomes to refuse to serve it, in order to prevent that state from continuing to harass others.

«& thereby everyone including yourself is benefitting.»

If someone volunteers to defend me, then I thank them.
If someone is forced to defend me, then I do not benefit from it, then I don't want them to do it and rather forego that "service", whatever be the implications.

«If people are not comfortable with doing their bit then they should not expect others to bow to their demands for their "rights" !»

NOBODY should expect that anyway, whether or not they do their bit.

And besides, how can you tell what is someone's "bit"?
It is different for different people.

«Many of us had a life of working in jobs we didn't like yet the taxes we paid are squandered on people who reject work on grounds of it being not what they want or are not capable of. That nonsense has to stop soon.»

That is a drop in the ocean compared with what is squandered on salaries for "public servants", which are about 10 times that of welfare income. Stop that nonsense first!

Also, the dole is a good investment:
Had there been no dole in Australia, then we would have had to invest much more on fencing, alarms, stronger doors and windows, armed guards, policemen, judges and prisons, and even then we wouldn't feel safe in the streets, which we currently do.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 28 February 2024 12:29:21 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
And besides, how can you tell what is someone's "bit"?
It is different for different people.
Yuyutsu,
Only when there are no standards ! A healthy, unselfish mentality does not need explaining but guidance on how to best acquire a healthy unselfish mentality always results in a better human being.
Posted by Indyvidual, Wednesday, 28 February 2024 8:29:54 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Charlotte Bronte put it so well when she wrote:

"Prejudices, it is well known, are most difficult to
eradicate from the heart whose soil has never been
loosened or fertilized by education. They grow from
there, firm as weeds among stones."
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 28 February 2024 9:04:40 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Foxy,
Yes, however, is trying to plant a healthy caring mentality with a focus on decency of responsibility Prejudice ?
Posted by Indyvidual, Wednesday, 28 February 2024 11:02:42 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual,

Prejudice and bias illustrate a fundamental flaw of
human nature. We all have gut feelings, instincts, emotions,
and they affect our judgement and our actions for good and
evil. We also have the capability of rational deliberation
and intelligent planning - in this way reason helps us create
a better world.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 28 February 2024 12:43:59 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
We also have the capability of rational deliberation
and intelligent planning - in this way reason helps us create
a better world.
Foxy,
Same here & that's why I advocate for a NMNS for young people who missed out being brought up to care & for those fortunate to have been raised by good parents to share their experience & mentality with the former.
Posted by Indyvidual, Wednesday, 28 February 2024 1:09:24 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Charlotte Bronte also seemingly thought it was ok to lock up mad women and hide them from the world.
Posted by Canem Malum, Wednesday, 28 February 2024 5:43:35 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Sadly Foxy sounds very similar to Bertha Rochester in the way that she seems intent in burning down Australian culture.
Posted by Canem Malum, Wednesday, 28 February 2024 5:55:40 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Lenin wanted people to be educated too. He educated many people to death- and set them free...
Posted by Canem Malum, Wednesday, 28 February 2024 6:14:36 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yes I agree that we should have less public servants. If we have less productive people then we have less life.
Posted by Canem Malum, Wednesday, 28 February 2024 6:19:20 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
we should have less public servants
Canem Malum,
The way things stand at this time then yes. If only somehow we could get the Public Service Union to put merit before membership fees & actively work on killing off the Peter Principle.
Everyone needs a job for an income but to pay people for actually sabotaging good will is simply unaffordable in every sense.
There are so many options to curb unemployment & shortage of housing but the "educated expert advisors" are so out of touch to do anything about it. Why not have a Govt Lottery where an above standard wage could be won for life with Super & other contributions. Also, standard homes could be won for people in areas of their choice. This could be done until the crisis is over & everyone is housed & secure.
That would give people the initiative to help protect the Nation when every able bodied citizen is needed, no conscription nessecary.
Posted by Indyvidual, Wednesday, 28 February 2024 8:33:00 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual- Take care. As they say- a growing group of people can't continue to waste the productivity of thousands of people for too long before something terrible goes wrong. The more durable food, clothing, building materials, people in storage the more investment in the longer term can be accomplished such as helping those less productive, investing in the future of the civilization, basically in creating a saner world. But it's important not to put effect before cause. We need to take care not to allow people into positions of power that would tear long term creation apart. It's easier to destroy than to create.
Posted by Canem Malum, Thursday, 29 February 2024 4:30:16 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual,

Go back and read my posts on this discussion. I have
pointed out that our youth is floundering and I support
a National Service for school leavers.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 29 February 2024 7:11:40 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indyvidual,

Talking about creation and not destruction?

We are lucky in this country that although Australia
does not have a Bill of Rights, nevertheless our
Constitution guarantees the individual certain
fundamental rights and protections.

In contrast, V.I. Lenin, made it clear that, in his
political philosophy, Law has one but one primary
goal: "A law is a political measure, it is politics."
No Soviet authority or communist leader has abandoned
this concept.

It's been applied in the territories "liberated" by the
Bolsheviks during the October revolution, in the captive
nations occupied by the Red Army during World War II,
and in the lands won by military force or "wars of
liberation" in Asia, Africa, the Far East, and the
Caribbean.

Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine clearly shows the
threats that the world still faces as does China's
continued presence in our region. That's why for
Australia to be prepared is essential. Vigilance is
key and so is having a national service.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 29 February 2024 7:56:01 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Foxy,

«our youth is floundering and I support
a National Service for school leavers.»

You showed time and again how much you care for Gazan children,
but when it comes to these unworthy Australian children, those little brats who deserve nothing but the cane...

Throw them in the camps and tunnels where like the children of Gaza, they receive a Kalashnikov, anti-tank grenades, a spade, a copy of Mein Kampf, and amphetamines to top it and remove any possible remaining trace of conscience.

Like they hadn't suffered enough having to attend school for 12 years!

Had you been in a position to set policies,
and I been of school age,
then I'd rather leave school inside a coffin.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 29 February 2024 11:21:45 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
We don't let the people have guns and ideas are more dangerous than guns so why should we let them think. Herbert Marcuse father of the new left was a Hebrew, Gay, Trotskite, Psychologist- that seems to draw a link between Progressive Socialists and Communism and the psychological dictatorship movement including MK Ultra of the 50's. It's been said that multiple bridge trolls have used their academic and ideological position to obtain sexual favours among the student body- fair enough every body being adults- but lets not pretend that they are acting out of genuine interest in the welfare of others.
Nietzsche talked about the slave code of envy- the woke/ communists don't love the poor they hate the rich.

As Foxy said she supports some type of National Service for school leavers- at least she has seen the light- but being a small L liberal/ Rino/ Tory Wet she obviously has a long way to walk along the path in my view till she rejects the racism of multiculturalism and social engineering of Australian psychology because she knows better and is a superior thinker to other Australian's who disagree.

As they say seek first to understand
Posted by Canem Malum, Thursday, 29 February 2024 11:34:03 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
“Give me just one generation of youth, and I'll transform the whole world.”
&#8213; Vladimir Lenin

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/106700-give-me-just-one-generation-of-youth-and-i-ll-transform
Posted by Canem Malum, Thursday, 29 February 2024 11:40:17 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yuyutsu,

I care for all innocent victims of the war in the Middle
East. Children and adults. Thank you for recognizing that
fact.

We should be thankful for all the "difficult
people" on this forum. They show us who we don't want to
be.

Nemaste.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 29 February 2024 2:44:28 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I prefer Reagan's quotes - to those of Lenin:

Reagan put it so well:

"How do you tell a communist?
Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin.
And how do you tell an anti-communist?
It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin."
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 29 February 2024 2:50:14 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Foxy,

There is a misconception that in some way, a universal form of conscription/national service will enhance the future of young people, it wont, many in favour see it as a punishment rather than an opportunity. When pressed Indy admitted his idea of NS involved 18 years old's, all 300,000 of them, picking up rubbish from the side of the road, just his way of inflicting punishment on those he believes don't come up to his standard.. What I like to see is the 360,000 TAFE places for young folk, giving opportunities for a worthwhile career though meaningful employment with tertiary education. Despite what some think, educated people contribute far more to the betterment of society through productivity, than any uneducated person doing menial labour can ever do.

"Albert Einstein", put man on the Moon, is responsible for modern day transport, skyscrapers, super tankers, huge dams, electrical systems, water supply, etc etc, not some old fart tinkering in his back shed as Indy puts it
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 29 February 2024 3:59:01 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Reagan wasn't perfect but he's better than 99% of "leaders". I enjoyed the quote. Das Kapital looks like a pretty boring read- but have tried to read summaries- I generally try to read original sources- I read "The Communist Manifesto" and "Rules for radicals". I think that Kapital is designed as boring in order to be inscrutable to the uncommitted. Marx seems similar to a Rasputin like figure leading the naive down the garden path. Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Mao are an order of magnitude of greater evil. Though surely Marx knew of the horror of the French Revolution- and despite this known horror led people towards it. Perhaps Napoleon I, II, III acted as a pressure valve to the excesses of proto-communist nihilism throughout the 1800's through figures such as . It's interesting that The Paris Commune lasted only 2-3 months (similar or less than the US Portland riots) but is heralded as an enormous event. It's said that Marx and Engels participated in The Paris Commune.

Robespierre let loose extreme forces within France creating a disaster on Spanish Inquisition level from hundreds of years before. Can you really claim that he didn't know what he was doing? Can you really blame the Aristo's for Robespierre's actions. Can the woke do the same now in the so called enlightened era?

If we are having these nihilistic blood baths every hundred years or so are we due for another?
Posted by Canem Malum, Thursday, 29 February 2024 4:19:03 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Paul,

«Despite what some think, educated people contribute far more to the betterment of society through productivity, than any uneducated person doing menial labour can ever do.»

I actually on the whole appreciate and respect menial labourers more,
I especially bow down to them when they do the jobs that I am not willing to do.
I knew people who got a university degree or two, but conscientiously decided to work as cleaners or tile-layers instead.
And I despise those who just for a good salary are happy to work in jobs which serve to make human life more complicated.

On the whole, menial workers have no misgivings and sleep better after a day of work.

If I had to choose between living in a world without menial workers or in a world without intellectuals, then I would choose the latter.

But well, this new discussion has nothing to do with conscription:
I think we can agree between us that conscription, be it military or otherwise, is a despicable atrocity, irrespective of what its victims are made to do or learn. Even if by some rare chance conscription contributed to society materially, it would render that society evil and undeserving to continue to exist.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 29 February 2024 4:58:34 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I case anybody missed it some have compared "conscription for youth" vs "education for youth"- for society.
Posted by Canem Malum, Friday, 1 March 2024 6:35:47 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 32
  7. 33
  8. 34
  9. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy