According to Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis (Ieefa):

"(Electrity) network firms had extracted about $11.1bn since 2014, including $2bn in the 2022 fiscal year alone. That sum was in addition to permitted “normal” profits of $16bn over those years.

The ability of monopoly network providers such as Endeavour Energy in NSW, Queensland’s Ergon and Victoria’s Citipower to continue to extract such bumper profits reflected poor governance by the Australian Energy Regulator (AER).

Network profit gains will counter at least some of the recent falls in wholesale electricity prices, meaning consumer power bills are unlikely to shrink much in the near term."

Monopolies and higher costs to consumers as a result of privatising once state owned resources at the same time as wholesale prices are falling - we were warned about this but we chose to ignore all the evidence from overseas that this would be the result.

There are things that can be done to correct the problems
involved. The following link explains:

http://www.ieefa.org/resources/power-prices-can-be-made-fairer-and-more-affordable#:

Power is certain to become far more expensive and unreliable if governments pursue a heavily taxpayer subsidised renewable energy fantasy. Clive Palmer is guessing this scenario and sees opportunity for coal fired power. He might have tried to build a nuclear power station were it legal. Who knows?

Hi Fester,

Palmer is a dinosaur who rips off his workers. He can't be trusted!

Fester,

The electricity supplied through the grid comes from many sources.

The wholesale price of electricity has been falling at the same time as retail prices have been increasing regardless of the source of the electricity.

Hi Paul,

Agree. What interested me was that he wanted to build a coal fired power plant when such projects are claimed to be un-viable.

Hi WTF,

What strikes me about the government's pursuit of renewable energy is the lack of transparency about cost and subsidies. The CSIRO study released last year mentioned things like pumped hydro (probably not viable in WA, but the recent report on the why is secret), and only allowed for four hours of generation backup. At least it had the sense to include gas turbine generation. I fear that if Australia pursues the renewable energy fantasy much longer we will face economic collapse as Sri Lanka did with its pursuit of organic food production.

https://www.energy.gov.au/news-media/news/renewables-confirmed-cheapest-source-electricity

Nuclear energy is dismissed as too expensive, yet I find the claim extraordinary given that the battery cost alone for renewables is multiples the cost of powering Australia with nuclear energy. And remember how wonderful pumped hydro was going to be? The renewable energy spivs and zealots are going to throw Australia off a cliff if they are allowed to pursue the fantasy for much longer.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/worlds-biggest-standalone-grid-says-pumped-hydro-too-hard-all-in-with-battery-storage/

The link I gave earlier tells us in the Executive
Summary that power bills can be fairer and more
affordable if Australia's governments agreed to
tackle the super normal excessive network profits.

That change can only happen with government action.

It's pointed out that substantial new regulated network
investment is needed to allow for the replacement of
the high emissions power stations with renewable energy
and storage. However, excessive network profits are
raising consumer prices and impeding this transformation.

Things won't change unless the government steps in.

Perhaps WTF should have explained what the "permitted “normal” profits" are, if he knows. In fact they don't exist. there are regulated profit margins but the system is built to allow, indeed encourage, businesses to exceed those regulated profits by making additional cost savings.

All of this is covered in the Guardian article WTF got his information from. I can't imagine why he didn't mention it.

"“The ability of business to outperform the regulated rate of return is the incentive-based framework working as intended under the legislation,” an AER spokesperson said. “The outperformance is not an indicator of “supernormal profits”, nor having a material impact on customer bills.

“The incentive schemes in place under the regulatory framework reward networks for improving productivity and service performance beyond benchmarks,” the spokesperson said. “This ultimately provides benefits to customers in the form of lower prices and superior service levels.”

Repeat....“This ultimately provides benefits to customers in the form of lower prices and superior service levels.”

I guess the usual suspects are panicking that Albanese's promise to lower electricity prices is now unattainable and are scrounging around to find excuses.

Craig Emerson writing in the Australian Financial
Review tells us that :

"There's no pathway to affordable clean energy that
doesn't require government support. "

And according to The Guardian:

Industry and states have welcomed Albanese government's
plan to jump start the stalled renewables investment scheme
designed to attract financial investment in new wind and
solar farms.

There's more at the following:

http://theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/nov/23/albanese-government-renewable-energy-investment-scheme

The government has turned its energy to this head-turning
task.

WTF?

"Normal profits" are what Australian Energy Regulator (AER) considers necessary to compensate network shareholders for their investment.

Their definition not mine.

I am quoting the IEFF because the IEFF states that: "The AER does not appear to be addressing this issue despite significant evidence that network businesses are receiving much higher-than-expected returns on equity."

So this is of interest to consumers - price increases and the Government organisation tasked with overseeing this not appearing to address the issue.

This information comes from the IEFF website.
"Super profits reach $11bn as monopoly power networks exploit system failures."
http://ieefa.org/articles/super-profits-reach-11bn-monopoly-power-networks-exploit-system-failures.

So we have monopolies and "The AER’s approach means large wealth transfers from power consumers to network shareholders are very likely to continue for the foreseeable future."

mhaze seems to have a strange approach to Laissez-faire  capitalism.

One day saying that “…... allow, indeed encourage, businesses to exceed those regulated profits".

And yet on another saying “ to meet the various ambitions for industry in the country, perhaps we need to cut back on the ambitions.”

WTF gives us a definition of "normal profits". He originally talked of "permitted normal profits". I wonder why he left 'permitted' out? Perhaps because they are 'permitted'. Profits above normal profits aren't just permitted, they are encouraged.

I've noticed WTF has a habit of selectively truncating quotes to colour a point.

Hilariously WTF writes" mhaze seems to have a strange approach to Laissez-faire capitalism."

Laissez-faire capitalism? Struth!. The whole energy market is as far removed from laissez-faire capitalism as its possible to be. The whole notion of regulated normal profits is as far removed from laissez-faire capitalism as its possible to be. Massive and utterly market distorting subsidies are as far removed from laissez-faire capitalism as its possible to be.

The intention of the Albanese government is to give people the impression that making renewable energy cheaper is simply an administrative matter. It is not. The problem with renewables is they are intrinsically expensive and unreliable, perhaps even an impossible means of replacing fossil fuels or nuclear energy.

Fester,

Every new innovation starts out being expensive.
But with time decreases in price. Maintaining
the old worn out power stations is even more
expensive. And the future is with renewables.

Foxy,

Repeating the renewable energy chant of your cult party won't make the impossible happen, nor will it mitigate the disaster from pursuing it. Things are guaranteed to get much worse the more Labor pursues the renewable energy fantasy.

Fester,

There's quite a few countries that are pursuing renewable
energy. The UK, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden,
Iceland, Germany, to name just a few.

Your reference to "my cult party?"

That took me by surprise. All you need is a charismatic
leader, and you've got a cult.

Anyhoo, There's always been a cult of ignorance winding
through our political and cultural life nurtured by
the false notion that democracy means that someone's knowledge
is just as good as someone else's ignorance.

You're welcome.

.

Fester, you are only demeaning yourself by claiming Foxy is being led by some "cult party" with her opinions. Nothing more than disingenuous smug pretentiousness on your part. You may be the one following a "cult party" with a political agenda that sucks the ill-informed in hook, line and sinker! The energy mix is changing rapidly, but one thing is certain, the days of fossil fuels are numbered, and change will come, regardless of what the naysayers with little knowledge pontificate!

Hi Paul,

There is no shortage of evidence demonstrating that renewables are very unreliable and expensive compared with nuclear power or fossil fuels. My criticism of Foxy is that she simply parrots the Labor party line, whatever it might be. I saw that amply demonstrated with the voice. I don't care less what people think or believe, but I think it disingenuous to present yourself as an independent thinker when your opinions never seem to be at variance with cult leader Albo.

Note that with renewable energy, the strategy of Labor currently is to stress the urgency of climate change, suggest that renewable energy is a developing technology with great potential for technical and cost improvements, and avoid discussion of renewable energy's fundamental problems. There is also a strong effort to make costs and subsidies as obscure as possible.

Hi Fester,

As a Green, I'm not adverse to nuclear energy per-se, but its certainly not a panacea to the problem of energy provision, I do think it can play a very important part. I also realise fossil fuels have a limited future life, but also will be a vital energy component for some time to come, they are needed to facilitate a transition to renewable's. Its not going to be painless, and its going to involve substantial costs, that's the reality. I liken this to the development of the motor car, the first cars were unreliable and expensive, some developments were dead end failures, some people said; "They'll never replace the horse and cart!" Well, over time, with ingenuity cars got cheaper and more reliable, to the point where we can't do without them today. There is a line of progression that all new developments must go through, renewable's are no different.

Albanese Australia seems to be the only country too stupid to learn from other countries who have been-there-done-that and discoverered what a crock unreliable, massively subsidised wind and solar has turned out to be.

Electric cars have hit the ropes, too. The Albanese government, and the Opposition, are both too arrogant and pig-headed to admit that they were wrong and start repairing the horrendous damage they have done to the country. And we have no intelligent, patriotic politicians to replace the self-serving duopoly.

Australian's apathy and lack of interest in their own futures has finally bitten them on the arses, where they keep their brains.

Australian apathy and ‘she’ll be right’ attitudes have brought about:-

. the threat of censorship of free speech, but not for politicians and government departments

. extreme political reactions to Covid and the lack of a proper enquiry

. elimination of merit-based achievement under the ESG schemes infecting institutions and corporations

. attacks on the family by the LGBT activist movement culminating in programs to transition kids

. Net Zero policies designed to create scarcity and increased cost of living

. open borders, unfettered immigration

.multiculturalism diluting our own Anglo-European culture.

. globalist trade policies

. rumours of handing over health/pandemic policies to WHO

. the really pathetic intention to have TV manufacturers put smart TV apps in Albanese order

. constant hinting and nudging by the UN, WHO, WEF that countries should surrender sovereignty to them.

 An Australian ‘Social Cohesion Survey’ shows that a strong sense of belonging to Australia has dropped from 67% in 2007 to 48% in 2023.

 In 2007, 58% of Australians felt  a great pride in the Australian way of life. In 2023, this pride is down 33%. 

Albanese is presiding over the tribalisation of society, accelerating the rise of identity politics. 

How can you not love a country where a boy who lived
with his single mother on a disability pension in
public housing grew up into a man occupying the
highest office in the land.

A leader who states:

"I want every parent to be able to tell their child no
matter where you live or where you come from in Australia
the doors of opportunity are open to us all."

A leader whose agenda is to be a more concilliatory and
cooperative leader than those in the past.

In politics my stance has always been to support the party
whose policies make sense to me. Whose leaders are worthy
of the job they hold. And I've always voted for a party
that I believed made our country a place where people could
see their dreams fulfilled.

I believe that there are many, many, more people who think
that way in this country.

According to the newly released Australian Cohesion
Index 2023, there are positive trends emerging in
health and well being of Australians.

The report found that young adults and financially
challenged experienced the biggest decline in
belonging from 2008 to 2023. However, overall
Australians felt a high level of trust in their
fellow citizens, suggesting a very strong sense of
community.

We're told that - pleasingly, recognition and
support for diversity and multiculturalism is
growing, enhancing the social fabric of our nation.

We can only hope that this will continue.

Hi Paul,

Given that the past is defined, unlike the future, we all tend to live in it somewhat, although our interpretations of the past don't seem to entail less dispute than our predictions going by what I read here.

I believe much information is obscured by the commercial interest backing it. In the case of renewables there are many tens of billions of dollars in government subsidies to be made, so glossy brochure claims for cheap reliable energy are assured, despite rising power bills and probable rolling blackouts in future.

Against this, Clive Palmer wants to build a coal fired power station. Whatever he is personally and professionally, he is not a fool and clearly sees an opportunity to have us over a barrel if renewable energy fails, which I believe it will.

https://digitaleditions.smedia.com.au/afr-todays-paper/Default.aspx

"Energy Minister Chris Bowen’s expanded green energy underwriting scheme could end up costing future taxpayers ‘‘tens of billions’’ of dollars, says a top energy economist who predicts $59 billion in new solar, wind and battery spending will eventually erode earnings from renewable power."

Here are some key facts from the Climate Council:

1) Energy from wind and solar is the most affordable
fuel source available today.

2) Energy from wind and solar is on average half of the
price of energy from coal and gas.

3) The cost of renewable energy will continue to fall
as technology improves.

4) The price of coal and gas is high and volatile,
contributing to rising energy bills.

5) Renewable energy protects Australians from international
price shocks.

When renewable energy is backed up by batteries and
other types of storage we can enjoy affordable
electricity 24/7 all year round.

"1) Energy from wind and solar is the most affordable
fuel source available today."

There's an old Russian story/proverb. An accounting job was being filled. Each candidate was asked to add 15 and 7. Each dutifully answered 22. Then one responded "what answer do you want". He got the job.

Costing energy sources is like that. Reach a conclusion and then work backwards. Calculating the total cost of an electricity source becomes an exercise in deciding what is added in and what isn't. For example with solar, do you include the cost of transporting the panels from the Chinese slave camps to the Australian wilderness? Do you count the cost of building transmission lines to the solar array? Do you count the cost of paying farmers for the land the transmission lines traverse? Do you count the cost of disposal of the aged panels?

And a myriad other issues. The opportunity to fiddle the numbers to achieve the desired outcome is uncountable.

One way to decide the true cost of renewables is to compare across countries. Scatter plots of the relationship between electricity costs and installed renewables show that, the more renewables a nation has, the higher its electricity costs. Not much room for fudge there so its rarely done let alone referred to.

The government in its utter ignorance of these issues promised to reduce electricity costs in its first term. They have no chance of doing that now. So the usual crowd will avert their gaze and pretend not to notice.

"When renewable energy is backed up by batteries and
other types of storage we can enjoy affordable
electricity 24/7 all year round."

Struth, it must be nice to live in such a Disneyfied world. BTW when the shamans perfect their dances, every Sunday will be sunny with a refreshing rain show in the late afternoon. Oh look there's Bambi.

Oh dear, you have to be just so naive Foxy to believe garbage like that, especially when it comes from a source that has never been right in anything it has ever predicted.

The fact that something is published has no bearing on if it is right, or even makes any sense, with the crowd running academia & the MSM today.

The IEEFA report is just a hit job, as this release from the AER demonstrates: http://www.aer.gov.au/news/articles/news-releases/aer-statement-institute-energy-economics-and-financial-analysis-report-regulated-network-electricity-prices. Looks like IEEFA pull this stunt every year as the media release is from 12 months ago.

AER sets the price the networks can charge. It sets it for a 5 year term and then reviews it. Each time it reviews it using current financial data, so ratchets it down. If a provider can reduce its costs to lower than the AER has used in its determination it gives the network owner more profit - what the IEFFA calls a "super profit".

The AER says this is a feature of the system. If it immediately took the efficiency dividend away from the provider there would be no incentive to be more efficient. The network operator won't get to keep it forever, just until the next review. Sounds like a good system to me, particularly as network prices are the largest component of the cost of electricity.

I noted WTF attributes the "super profits" to privatisation. An interesting thesis as control rests with the government, which sets the prices, as they would do in a publicly owned situation. And one of the networks named - Ergon- is actually publicly owned.

WTF also makes an incorrect statement about wholesale prices falling while retail prices rise, inferring that network charges are the villain. This document from the Victorian government puts paid to that: http://www.esc.vic.gov.au/electricity-and-gas/prices-tariffs-and-benchmarks/victorian-default-offer/victorian-default-offer-price-review-2023-24

How can you not love a country where a boy who lived
with his single mother on a disability pension in
public housing grew up into a man occupying the
highest office in the land.

DONALD TRUMP.

Yes, humble beginnings indeed! After developing a cure for cancer and before graduating from primary school, Statesman Donald went into politics. In his first day in office, Statesman Donald stopped all wars, eliminated world poverty, and raised every person on the planet living standard to equal that of Elon Mush, Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates combined, amazing! When questioned the modest Donald said; "It was nothing really, all in a days work." Donald worked like that for six days, and on the seventh day he rested! Had a sodie pop and a couple of doughnuts, as all the great ones do from time to time, and so it was....for Donald. Then in 2020 a dangerous new menace threatened the World, Covid 19, not perturbed, the now Doctor Donald sprung into action, with his trusty bottle of 'Pine-O-Clean' Doctor Donald single handedly vaccinated every man, woman,and child, on the planet, dogs and cats as well. Thus avoiding what could have been a bad hair day for some of us, and a really bad hair day for others. Some said Donald was Jesus....they were wrong, the unassuming Donald said; "I am not JESUS, I am GOD!"...and he was right... Then they kicked the poor sod out in favour of some decrepit silly old fart with dementia! Like that phrase General MacArther pinched off Donald in 1942..."I SHALL RETURN!'...and bloody hell Dangerous Donald might just do that!

Hi Hasbeen,

CSIRO's annual GenCost report confirms wind and
solar with storage are the cheapest sources of
electricity in Australia.

There's more at the link given below.

We're told that renewables remain the cheapest new
build electricity generation option in Australia, although
we're also told that inflation and supply chain disruptions
will likely put cost reduction on hold for the next year.

The link tells us that each year Australia's National Science
Agency - CSIRO, and the Australian Energy Market
Operator ( AEMO) work with industry to give an updated cost
estimate for large-scale electricity generation in Australia.

The report considers a range of future scenarios to understand
the mix of technologies that may be adopted and costs for each
of these possible pathways.

The 2021-2022report confirms the past year's findings that
wind and solar are the cheapest source of electricity and
storage in Australia, even when considering additional
integration costs arising due to the variable output of
renewables such as energy storage and transmission.

There's more at:

http://csiro.au/en/news/all/news/2022/july/gencost-2022

Hate to tell you this Foxy, but no one who understands the industry believes the CSIRO Gencost figures. They are contradicted by a huge number of other organisations, such as the IEA, plus any reasonably robust back of the envelope calculations. You might like to check out the NetZero2050 report compiled by a number of universities, like UQ, as well as the Conservation Council. We'll need $1.5. trillion by 2030 to reach the government's targets using renewables and $9 trillion all-up. That is not cheap.

The GenCost report mentions dispatchable energy once. When discussing levelised cost of energy, the report states:

"LCOE does not take account of the additional costs associated with each technology and in
particular the integration costs of variable renewable electricity generation technologies"

That confirms mhaze's observation that non-dispatchable renewable cost calculations in the report exclude numerous costs like inverters and transmission lines. Include storage to make renewable energy dispatchable and the price of energy skyrockets.

The report also states:

"LCOE does not recognise that electricity generation technologies have different roles in the
system. Some technologies are operated less frequently, increasing their costs, but are
valued for their ability to quickly make their capacity available at peak times."

What the above statement means is that the cost of energy from fossil fuel generating technology will be higher if used below capacity, which is frequently the case.

So the report uses its methodology to make renewable generation look cheap and fossil fuel generation look expensive. And the assessment of nuclear energy costs is likewise a joke. What a con job of a report. How far the CSIRO has fallen.

A country that throws up a thing like Albanese is on the way out.

A country (mis)governed by a gang that received less than a third of the primary vote is done for.

A country is only as good as its people. Australia is a divided, multicultural mess. A lunatic asylum, run by lunatics, with nothing much in the way of opposition to give hope of a change.

I'm not a scientist so of course I can only quote from
our country's pre-eminent public research organization's
findings, CSIRO.

We've been told in the past by leading academics like
Prof.Tor Hundloe who was the first Australian recognized by
the Order of Australia for his development and practice
of an economics in line with ecological reality and
ethical imperatives.

It was
Prof. Hundloe who stated that Australia is one of the standout
countries in terms of human development status. That Australia is
not corrupt. And that it's science is world class.

He also stated that new ideas, instead of being
welcome for the opportunities they opened up for the
improvement of the human lot, are often seen as threats
to those who have become comfortable in their ideologies.

He said - we have to be aware that on issues which require
radical solutions that are likely to harm vested interests
as well as political interests, censorship will exist.

Only time will tell - where our energy's future lies.
One thing is certain - the new technologies will
begin to test vested interests by scientific facts.

How our governments will take up the challenge we shall
have to wait and see. Hopefully we shall be more advanced
in understanding which economic levers can move us in
the right direction.

New ideas are fine with me. What concerns me is taking the country into the unknown, blowing up our bridges behind us. There is no plan b if it fails. That is crazy.

Hi Fester,

Perhaps there's already a plan B in place. One
that's being scientifically tested?
A government that's prepared to listen, take
advice, and negotiate, will surely do what's
right for the country?

No, no plan b, but worse, no working prototype for proof of concept. There was a pumped hydro scheme in WA that would store power from wind and solar and power a town, but it didn't get past the drawing board. Albo and Bowen are a far greater threat to Australia than CO2.

Fester,

Mr Albanese is still the nation's preferred leader.

Foxy,

Albozo's approval rating has plummeted to the same as Dutton's, and the approved leader gap between him and Dutton has shrunk by 75% and certainly won't win him an election.

The moron Bowen has introduced a massive plan to roll out renewables but refuses to say how much it will cost and how much will be charged to taxpayers and electricity users. It is this underhanded dishonesty that sank the "Voice".

Shadow Minister,

According to the polls - Albanese is still the preferred
Prime Minister. And as for giving the costs involved
with renewables - it's still early days yet to do so.
You again are using nonsensical arguments just as you
did with the Voice simply to attack Labor.

Such outmoded tactics will help your party to again lose the
next election. You guys need to change your tactics.
You're not impressing anyone.

Foxy,

It would appear that voters thought the Yes campaign was more nonsensical than the No campaign.

Noticeably, you are unable to point to anything that I have said that is incorrect. You counter facts with your flawed opinion.

Shadow Minister,

You know that you are simply toeing the party line.
This has been pointed out to you many times.
And being selective in what you choose to believe
and ignoring facts - is part of you and your party's
problem. It is time for a total overhaul for you guys.
What was done by you with the Voice was truly a missed
opportunity - and quite shameful.

No one talks about the real problem with wind/solar.
It is the multiplication factor
To make it work the maximum demand expected has to be duplicated with
extra generation a number of times to compensate for still nights in one or two or three or-- areas.
The argument that gets put is between 5 and 12 times.
It could be a still night over the whole of Australia, not very
common I am sure, but the figure then would be infinity times duplication.
It is this that makes the so called renewables extremely expensive.
BTW Renewables really means "Must be renewed every 20 years !".

Sorry Foxy, but I have to say your last post is the most Pot, Kettle, Black effort I've seen on the forum.

Bazz,

No one mentions duplication because they are struggling with the renewable energy problem of chaotic supply. I suspect that renewable energy will be more expensive than nuclear after dealing with the problems before duplication and storage are consideration, so expect a lot more catastrophist lobbying from the renewable energy spivs.

Solar and wind power can’t power EV’s. In Germany the network regulator is working on ways to limit electricity to hungry EV’s and heat pumps so they don’t crash the grid.

Germany’s residential grid operators will be empowered to restrict the flow of power to heat pumps and electric vehicle (EV) chargers from 2024 in order to preserve the stability of the grid, which is suffering from chronic underinvestment.

To paraphrase the WEF, "You will own nothing and feel grateful to get any electricity at all".

Fester, it is the chaotic unreliability that generates the need for
duplication. As Europe demonstrated a year and a bit back there is
such a thing as a Wind Drought.
Australia being so big can spread wind generation over the whole
country and so improve our chances, but as we are already seeing
the transmission requirements are monumental and the costs likewise.
Batteries, ha ha ha, big money printers needed.

You're right about the duplication problem, and the storage problem. So if you want reliable electricity without nuclear that is lower emissions than coal you end up essentially with a gas grid with a massive parasitic layer of renewable energy over the top that can't live without the gas, although the gas could live without the renewables.

If you look at South Australia that appears to be what has happened with somewhere around a 25% gas to 75% the rest mix on average, but often much higher amounts of gas. http://aemo.com.au/energy-systems/electricity/national-electricity-market-nem/data-nem/data-dashboard-nem.

It looks like Thunder Said Energy has come to the same conclusion. They are a renewables friendly, but quite rigorous, energy consultancy. http://thundersaidenergy.com/2023/11/16/renewable-heavy-grids-dividing-the-pie/?mc_cid=0e14fb129c&mc_eid=7fb9c710c2.

Problem for us is that our premiers don't get the science or the engineering, and have ruled gas out of our Capacity Investment Scheme. We face a bleak future if Labor wins the next election, unless it tosses people like Chris Bowen.

Indeed Graham, Sth Aus could not continue without the link to Victoria.
The government needs to cut the link to the Greens and the other
"independents" of that Teal colour.
It is a real mess and even if Labour gets turfed out at the next
election the damage has been done.
We probably need to start reading those US Prepper sites.
I think the result of this Dubai shindig will be a gallop to nuclear.
Guess who will be on the end of the queue ?

Hi Bazz,

There are two supply problems with renewable energy. The first is the chaotic power output which requires batteries and dispatchable generation on standby so that the supply grid can work. The second problem is the longer time frame variability (day to day and seasonal), which means that if you want to make renewable energy dispatchable you need to generate two to three times the energy required by some estimates. The renewable spivs will say that the excess power can be put to good use (e.g. hydrogen generation), but as with all the dispatchable generation on standby, piecemeal usage of infrastructure is more expensive. Renewable energy is a destructive con job.

Albozo's $275 p.a. cost savings on electricity will be remembered next to Juliar's "There will never be a carbon tax under a government I lead"

shonkyminister, what do you say,

Unlike the Noalition which gave their mates billions, Gerry Harvey $12 million, QANTAS $600 million, the Big End of Town billions, the Frogs $5 billion, save them Frogs! Gave the taxpayer a trillion dollars of debt, with no promises of repaying anytime within the next 50 years! They gave us, 'Robodebt, Sports Rorts, Car Park Rorts, Land Rorts, rorts upon rorts!

Village idiot,

And the Greens just gave us 2 convicted paedophiles, one accused pedo, one racist, homophobic and violent councillor and a bully in a pear tree.

It's all so Henny Penny with Albo and Bowen convinced of the coming catastrophe. Foxywoxy has told them about the wind and solar shortcut to nett zero. Will they go down the pumped hydo tunnel?

sickominister,

One can only guess what kind of sick individual would repeatedly come onto an anonymous forum and make continual references to paedophiles and paedophilia. This same poster above, described the actions of the convicted National party MP, the paedophile James Hayward who sexually assaulted a 6 year old girl over a period of two years as, in his words, being only a "minor transgressions", others can judge this "person" for themselves.

One can only guess how sick the village idiot is when he continually lies and misquotes other posters.

He belongs to the party that Andrew Forrest described as "the party for paedophiles" which has had 2 senior members convicted for paedophilia and one more forced to resign for underage sex with a minor.

He is desperately trying to cover this up by slagging off everyone else but keeps on being caught lying.

shonkyminister,

News for you, I been asked to join the Labor Party, again. I might take them up on their offer.

The only poster I slag off is a creep like you, who described the actions of the National Party MP and convicted paedophile, James Hayward, as a "minor transgression". The judge didn't agree he called it serious offending requiring a custodial sentence. Not much you can do to support the bloke, hiding out in NZ like you are.

Fester, the duplication has been argued about for a long time without
an easy way to resolve it being found.
The best range of duplication seems to be between 5 and 12 times.
That is for countries the size of Australia and the USA.
They waffle about batteries but no one thinks about where the power to
recharge will come from. Turns out to replace a day power you need to
duplicate whatever system you already have including its duplications.
So in a battery backup system for one days backup you need 10 to 24
duplications.
This is what Bowen does not understand.

Village idiot,

Lying again. Please show me where I said "James Hayward's offence was a "minor transgression"

While you are happy to sweep Jono Doig's raping of children under the carpet.

Village Idiot,

Who asked you to join the Labor party? Did you show them your ankle bracelet and creep of the year award?

Bazz,

Yes, I've read of the six too eight times average demand from wind and solar if you want all your power from those sources. The challenge currently is integrating the chaotic power output from existing wind and solar. I have heard that when you have about 40% of your power from these renewables there is a very significant risk of grid failure as the chaotic supply can easily become unmanageable.