Australia has changed beyond recognition because of mass immigration and multiculturalism. It's going to get worse; or better, according to your view.

An intergenerational report reveals that migrants will make up 75% of Australia’s population growth by 2050 , and for every voter who weighs up policies before they vote, there are dozens more who’ll vote almost exclusively according to, ethnicity or emotional ties.

Our immigration-led model of growth is toxic to traditional conservatism; there is no future for a real centre-right: be it the Liberal Party or anyone else.

Conservatism seems to have had its day in the West - UK, USA, Canada, and most of Europe (Hungary still remembers Communism), so and there is no reason to believe that Australia will not blindly follow, as it usually does, and as it is now doing with climate/energy/price-fixing suicide.

By accident or by design?

Yes I thought a few years back that we in the west were approaching the "mobs of Rome" stage that quickly led to the collapse of that great civilisation, but I had not expected it to progress to western collapse as quickly as it is now happening.

Politics was much more predictable in the past that's
true. However, can't blame multiculturalism or immigration
for the changes that exist today as if conservatism only
belongs to a certain ethnic group. Facts don't stand up
to that theory.

We've had people like Bartholomew Augustine Santamaria
( B.A. Santamaria) of Italian heritage - who had tremenduous
influence on conservative politics in this country.
We've had/got Liberal Premiers in the state of NSW.
And, as we know NSW is made up of a large ethnic mix.

The Liberal Party has been in power far longer in this country
than has Labor. In Victoria there are safe Liberal seats that
even during the last state election managed to stay Liberal
seats like Menzies - which has a huge ethnic mix. The Liberal
leader in Victoria John Pesutto is of Italian ancestry and
Matthew Guy's ancestry is Ukrainian.

I don't think that conservatism is finished in Australia. Not by
a long shot. And how a person votes depends on many variants.
It includes values - and as we can see from election results -
people tend to be a wide mix and they make wide choices.
Blaming multiculturalism and immigration - is very simplistic.

So what happens when all candidates move to the left or embrace agendas you oppose?
Can you legally abstain from voting when no candidates represent your point of view?
A fine would mean that more money lands in AEC coffers bolstering a system that no longer represents said voter.
- Is the only path left in not supporting this system (by vote or financial contribution) to willfully choose imprisonment instead of paying the fine?

Could a person abstain from voting because it went against their personal religion of “freedom”?
- Find out which case won -
http://tinyurl.com/mtr4m9wy

There is also the path of voting informally or simply not marking the paper at all and folding it and placing it in the box.
It’s not much to ask a citizen to front up, get crossed off and thus make sure that someone else doesn’t vote in your place.
To refuse to make this small civic contribution to democracy is grandstanding.

AC,

I would say by design. Having non-discriminatory immigration (when necessary) is reasonable and 'natural' for most people, whereas multiculturalism is deliberately divisive, practised by both sides of politics hoping to CREATE A NEW ELECTORATE that is more easily manipulated. It's the old divide and conquer method favoured by all authoritarians. It works, particularly when no matter who you vote for, the result is the same.

"So what happens when all candidates move to the left or embrace agendas you oppose?"

I don't know what 'you' do, but I don't vote for them. Can it be done legally, you ask. Come on! When you get your name marked off, and enter the polling booth, you can do as you bloody well please! And, I have refused to vote for any of the bozos on occasion. What does that achieve, you might ask. I can still look at myself in the mirror, knowing I'm not guilty of helping people I regard as scum into a very lucrative job they should not be in.

Fortunately, there are now enough candidates who fit my beliefs and conscience that I can vote for. And, when enough people are sick of being screwed by the usual rubbish, things might change, although I doubt that I will live to see it.

Hasbeen,

It seems fast, but it has been creeping up on us for a long time. As with Rome. There are all sorts of theories about the downfall of the Roman Empire, but one of the most significant was their acceptance of people as citizens who didn't fit the mould.

Foxy,

Sanimaria was born in Melbourne in 1915, in very different times from now.

"The Liberal Party has been in power far longer in this country than Labor has". So what! Who says the Liberals are any better or and different from Labor when it comes to multiculturalism and mass immigration.

Culture is in decline everywhere & it takes all other aspects of society down the drain with it !
So, its lack of culture actually leaves Australia rather well placed because it has not much to lose in that regard !
Where it does have a lot to lose is in the disorganised hotch-potch which is erroneously described & even worse, accepted as Multiculturalism but in realistic terms it's nothing but a petri dish of disunity !
The Woke movement is a perfect example !

ttbn,

Santamaria was born in Melbourne. However he came from a
strong Italian Catholic family with conservative values
as did/ do so many migrants including my own family.
My husband was also educated at St Josephs in North
Melbourne by the Christian Brothers. So as I said earlier
it all depends on the values that one is raised with -
that makes the difference. And it is for that reason
that I do not believe that traditional conservatism is
finished in Australia. It's passed on from generation to
generation in so many cases.

Take a look at Senators like Josh Frydenberg, Tim Wilson,
Dave Sharma, James Paterson, and Keith Wolahan. All young
senators, to name just a few.

Sorry I was under the impression that if you donkey vote, or vote improperly that someone still gets your vote.
Sometimes the rules confuse me.

ttbn,
> for every voter who weighs up policies before they vote, there are dozens more
> who’ll vote almost exclusively according to, ethnicity or emotional ties.

Did the intergenerational report really say that? Or is it just something you infer based on your prejudice against migrants?

_____________________________________________________________________________

Armchair,
Donkey votes count. Informal votes normally don't.
And if you don't like any of the candidates, have you considered standing against them?

No-one ever provides information on which migrants the indigenous would prefer to come to Australia !

Foxy

All of the people you mention, including your own family, have pretty much the same, compatible, culture as I do. I don't see what your point is. You are not addressing or recognising the multicultural aspects - the point of the post.

AC

A donkey vote is straight down the card, 1 to 6, on the paper. Only idiots do it. As Is Mise told you, you can put a blank paper in the box. No candidate will benefit from that. Or, you can write 'none of these' on the paper ditto result.

Aidan,

Do you really expect an answer to such an insulting question?

Indyvidual,

Wait until they get the Voice - that other piece of totalitarian manipulation by skin colour.

The Conservatives failure is of their own making, it has nothing to do with migrants or multiculturalism, but much to do with the Conservatives failure themselves to adapt to changes within Australian society, the countries social and economic aspirations. Like the dinosaur, the Conservatives failed to adapt to a changing (political) environment, with their message of "do nothing" having total lack of appeal to the bulk of Australian voters. Where to for conservatism in Australia now, continue to preach the "do nothing" message and therefore join with the dinosaurs and head for (political) extinction. Me thinks so.

The last hurrah for conservatism in Australia was the Howard government, unceremoniously dumped by the Australian electorate in 2007. Abbott tried for a revival in 2013/15 but was an abject failure. Turnbull tried to turn things around for the Coalition with a hamstrung attempt at progressive politics, but the conservatives within put paid to that, and installed the Morrison clown in Turnbull's place. With Labor in power the Liberals have installed a Mr Potato Head as their choice of leader, a bloke who doesn't know which way is up.

It's not multiculturalism or immigration that's changing voting patterns.

It's the fact that the number of baby-boomer "rusted-on" voters for both major parties are now equalled by the number of younger GenX voters who have different agendas and different opportunities and the major parties no longer meet their needs. They will never have the benefits of free Uni education or home ownership in most cases.

In addition, the conservatives have drifted so far to the right and been infiltrated and controlled by extremists and religious fanatics (like the US Republicans) that their increasingly moderate members are deserting them for independents like the Teals. Such people are now labelled as being "Lefties" but they are the true conservatives because what people called "conservatism" is now "neo-conservatism" and not what it used to be.

The chances are another party will be created to fill the gap and drag politics back toward the centre.

It's simple maths and history and nothing conspiratorial.

ttbn,
>Do you really expect an answer to such an insulting question?
Yes, although your failure to provide one suggests what you considered to be insulting was actually correct.

If you insult such a large proportion of voters, don't be surprised if you're called out on it.

Hey Aiden and ttbn,
Thank you both for the info.
I think I actually did vote the senate according to a how to vote card last time.
(But I may have defaced another ballot at some point)

I'm not necessarily against immigrants, but I don't really like the 'multicultural' agenda so much.
I'm not sure we should be taking 200,000+ per year.
- And I don't like having rules decided by the UN instead of us.

I don't like the ethnicity or gender employment quotas, I think jobs should be given on merit of who is best to perform said job.

I'm not gay, but I'm not necessarily against gay people.
I just don't have any reason to celebrate them, but I certainly don't care to police what others do in their bedrooms.

I'm not against doing things which are better for the environment, but I don't support cutting off ones nose to spite ones face.
I don't wish to blow up all the coal plants and raise the cost of business and living, and I don't like policies dictated by foreigners.

I'm not against protesters, but I don't support people gluing themselves to a road or parking cars across train tracks.

I'm not opposed to defending our country, but I don't want us dragged into wars because of others.
If you asked me if I support the US or China, I'd rather support our country and it's interests.

I'm not opposed to medicare, but I don't think people should pay for others sex change operations.

I don't want idiots having firearms, but I don't really want to take them away from responsible people who do need them in the course of raising livestock.

I don't support all these globalism agendas, but I don't identify as a sovereign citizen,
(even though I have had my share of conspiracy theories)
They'll just mentally back themselves into a corner fighting a losing battle against things we can't change.

And I don't want to be a politician, I care more about good policies than standing in front of a camera or microphone.

The filters in the Australian gene pool are now so clogged by nilly-willy immigration that only imported genes can improve things.
The dilemma for the thinking demographic is how to choose migrants who will be Nation-builders rather than the Nation users who are now out-numbering the former.
When silly Goaf declared that education should be free for everyone & his non-thinking followers have echoed that notion ever since, they all never edited their calls. They never yet corrected that education should be free to all who can qualify to enter the process of education instead of simplistically having the 'Right" to waste valuable resources & space just to be in University !
We now have 50 years of blatant evidence of the abysmal failure of Goaf's idealism & 'it's time' to consign this idiocy to waste bins of history ! Any day from now on should be seen as Day 1 for pulling our collective fingers out & free this Nation from the yoke of the Woke !

Aidan,

I should have known better than to respond to a nasty little grub like you. I will not make the mistake again.

Paul,

Yes. It is not just mass immigration and multiculturalism - which the Liberal party is as guilty of as the ALP is, but rather than "adapt themselves to Australian society", they should be trying to get back that large section of Australian society that they have lost by doing what you Lefties want: imitating Green Labor. We might as well throw democracy out the door and have one party if they keep doing what they are now. So far since the election, they have been an even worse Dutton Opposition than they were a bad Morrison government.

I have to say that if you think that it was 'conservatives' who installed Turnbull, nobody is going to take much notice of your advice.

Rache,

Your "It's not multiculturalism or immigration that's changing voting patterns" puts you in the same category as Paul. I'll stick with the analysts whose job it is to make judgments. And, it is absurd to say your version of conservatives have moved to the right, and have been "infiltrated and controlled by extremists and religious fanatics (like the US Republicans)". That bit of nonsense, and your use of the word 'conspiratorial' mark you down as an emoter rather than a thinker.

Indyvidual,

It's back to Gough with Ockernese; right down to the Communistic price fixing on coal and gas, an appalling policy in free market economy, which will wreak havoc on industry and stunt growth.

On immigration, who but people from Third World countries with backward cultures would want to come here these days.

Indy,

I want to thank you for your outstanding contribution to the Australian gene pool through your nilly-willy immigration to our fair shores. Its entirely down to you, that through your geno contribution, Australia now has the finest SHEEP in the world.

ttbn,

The moderates within the Liberal party realised that the Mad Monk Abbott was such an electoral liability that they made a disastrous switch to the mediocre Turnballs. Then Morrison who was a complete failure.

p/s Did anyone catch Morrison before the RC yesterday, what a useless piece of political excreta. Jan and the girls must get busy with the 'Baygon' whenever Scott's around.

ttbn,

People have been coming here for decades from different
cultures and backgrounds. The difference between our country
and others is that Australia has always had set programs in
place to deal with the influx of people. And on the whole it
has worked very well. Of course there are extremists within
cultures. But we've dealt with those over the years. Be it
the Aussie/Irish criminals that ran the crime in our major cities,
or the mafia, or the triads, each wave did what it did. And still
do.

On the whole, our country has done remarkably well and that's
why so many people want to come here. Also the children of these
immigrants adapt more quickly than their parents were able to
do - and they inevitably are being influenced by the Aussie
culture more than that of their parents. That always happens
and is normal.

I'm glad that you've raised this topic for discussion. And
although your concerns are understandable - I like to remain
more positive and think positively. We've survived very well
over these years, and I'm sure we'll continue to do so -
because - our country does have controls and rules in place.
Which everybody has to abide by. None of us really stray too
far from them.

Paul

How about calling 'moderates' what they are - Leftists, who are better suited to Labor or the Greens. These are a huge problem for conservatism, on top of mass immigration of multiple cultures.

With silly old buggers like you, plus millenials, and multicultis, the threat of a China-style one party system comes from within. Ockernese - the most Leftist PM ever: even worse than Gough - won't need the Greens then.

It's back to Gough with Ockernese
ttbn,
Uncanny how you say that as I was only reflecting the same a few minutes ago !

re;
through your geno contribution, Australia now has the finest SHEEP in the world.
Paul1405,
You're one of the causes that blame & fight the solution for the problem..

our country does have controls and rules in place.
Foxy,
It was the Aborigines' country & has become the Australians' Nation ! As I stated earlier, I'd really like to hear whom the Aborigines would prefer to migrate here these days !
Just think if China, India or Middle East Nations had colonised this continent before the British. Would a Voice be even relevant ?

In 2007 after Rudd's convincing win plenty of left-whingers were crowing about the downfall of conservatism and predicting that conservatives would be out of power for a decade.

3 years later Krudd was out and Juliar had a minority government, and 3 years after that Labor was wiped out by Abbott, and not to return for nearly another decade.

Australia has been changing beyond recognition because of mass immigration and multiculturalism since 1788, when the first influx of modern times began. Those first migrants didn't integrate at all with the inhabitants, but maintained their own culture so right from the start there was 'multiculturalism'.

Between 1851 and 1871 the Australian population quadrupled from 430,000 people to 1.7 million as migrants from across the world arrived in search of gold. The migrants then made up 75% of the population. The equivalent today would be the population going from 25 million to 100 million between 2022 and 2042, which is not going to happen with current migration rates.

While the bulk of the gold rush migrants were from Britain, there were substantial numbers from China, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, the USA, New Zealand and the South Pacific. Now, 150 years later, most people wouldn't realise that those sheep graziers in WNSW (whose great-uncle died at Gallipoli) are descended from Chinese immigrants of that time, and would be definitely unaware that my grand-daughter's middle-name has been passed down through the eldest daughter in each generation from her Swiss-Italian gold rush maternal ancestor who actually came here from Argentina (several recipes have been passed down too!).

This IS Australia. Mass immigration and multiculturalism. This is who we are and how we became who we are

Hey Cossomby,
Fair enough, but - They never had universities with divisive identity politics and critical race theory and ethnicity quotas back then...

'Change' is always met with 'Challenge'
Is it change for the better or change for the worse?

shadowminister,

But … I think it will be a lot longer than 3 years before what passes for an opposition now will dislodge bread-and-circuses Ockernese. I think it's going to be the Benedict Option for us.

Cossomby,

You are drawing a very long bow there. History has really gone awry since your third paragraph events: the rot started to creep in 50 years ago - when people very different from those who did all the hard work, made all the sacrifices, were replaced by inappropriate and unnecessary immigrants when the country had already reached its optimal population of 13 million people.

Dear Cossomby,

Beautifully said.

I could give you a hug. You've summed things up so well.

This is precisely who we are.

My children and my grand-children's
names have also been passed down through generations -
from their Lithuanian, German and Russian ancestors -
and my nieces and nephews from their British,
and Scottish ones. Who by the way
settled here as cattle farmers decades ago.

We all have our stories. And we're all a part of this nation
and have been as you point out - from the very beginning.

We are One and We are Many
And From All the Lands on Earth We come
We have a Dream and Sing with one Voice
We are - You are, we are AUSTRALIAN!

How out of touch is Mr Potato Head and his mob, they just voted not to given Australian households a price cut on their power bills. They would prefer to line the pockets of multinationals, big coal and big gas corporations! Now that's a vote winner. Thanks to the GREENS winning concessions from the government battlers will be better off. The Tories tell us they don't want to interfere with Big Businesses mega profits, another vote winner.

Hi Armchair Critic,

I beg to differ from your take on our universities.

One of the important reasons why Australia's higher
education is recognized today by the world is that
it has many excellent universities some of which
are even among the top 100 in the world. Which is no
small achievement.

These ancient Australian Universities have not only
achieved great academic achievements but also have
a good reputation both locally and internationally.

They are a first choice for many students.

The University of Sydney - 1850.
The University of Melbourne - 1853.
The University of Adelaide - 1874.
The University of Tasmania - 1890.
The University of Queensland - 1909.
The University of Western Australia - 1911.

It's something we can all be proud of - because it's both
the faculty, staff and students have made the reputations
of these places - and they come from a very wide mix of people.
Which is why they have succeeded and will continue to do so.

Foxy,
'Retard Circus' is all I can come up with to describe the level of intelligence I see from student protestors...

I'm not saying all of them, but a fair percentage of them.
And I'm not talking about 100 years ago, I'm talking about what we've been seeing recently, they're as radicalised in their beliefs as any other dangerous group, have you forgotten antifa?

The problem is the good ones go and do constructive things that benefit the country, whereas the bad ones, they get elevated to positions where they run the country.

So we can agree to disagree.

Hi Armchair Critic,

I don't know of any "bad ones" running the country.
So we shall have to agree to disagree on this.
Achievers are usually too busy working hard to achieve
their goals.
The noise makers on the other hand -
don't as a rule last very long.

No power problem in Aussie, just connect Mr Potato Head and his Tory cronies up to a turbine, they're full of so much hot air they should supply enough gas to light up a city the size of Adelaide!

hey Foxy,
Would you believe the most popular degrees our leaders have are law degrees and in almost equal second place is arts degrees?
http://www.torrens.edu.au/blog/what-degrees-ministers-australia-have-and-why-it-matters

I wonder if the students with arts degrees are the same ones I've seen standing on desks spitting at their lecturers for misgendering them?
- Video available on request, and as a bonus I'll throw in a free trigglypuff
(feel free to google it if you don't know what that is)

tbbn,

Suggesting there has been a political shift due to immigration only sounds not only extremely "conspiratorial" to me but also rather paranoid.

When you're jammed all the way to the right by definition, everyone else must be to the left - including moderates and traditional conservatives.
As for moving to the extreme right, what party is attracting membership by radical extremist groups and Pentecostals and which one is now to the right of the Liberal Party now?
Name one, please!

It's no longer those One Nations drones attracted to "the Worrior Princess" who has nothing but "a gutful" of whatever is in the news at the time because Howard dragged the Liberals toward her, not the other way around. Since then they have moved even further in that direction.

What analysts are you referring to? The voices in your head perhaps?

Hi rache,

Back in 2019 ttbn was on here singing the praises of Corny Banana and the 'Australian Conservatives'. According to tt the 'New Messiah' was among us in the form of Mr Banana, he joined up, gave over a wad of cash, was even an active member. The day of triumph for Australia's 47 million conservative voters was at hand, so ttbn thought. Soon his beloved Corny would be leading his flock into the hallowed halls of Canberra in triumph, where he would smite the red devils from within, and assume his rightful place as the new commander in chief of all he surveyed. Under conservative rule Australia would become the new land of "milk and honey". Oh! the possibilities were endless, conservatism would reign supreme for a 1000 years no less. Unfortunate things didn't quite work out as tt expected...Corny got no votes, then did a dash with the cash, leaving poor folk like ttbn in the lurch, with no messiah, no promised land, and defiantly no cash! The poor sod has been "crying in his beer" that conservatism is dead in Australia ever since. I suppose he is now waiting for the new, New Messiah to come among us. Could Old Joh, rise from the dead and lead another "Joh for Canberra" crusade, with the likes of ttbn in the vanguard, the possibilities are endless!

Rache,

"Voices in ( my) head"? "Analysts"? Did I mention analysts?

OK. You think that immigration's effect on voting/politics is conspiratorial and paranoid. I can't change that, and you will continue to believe that unless you educate yourself. Fair enough. I get it.

But: "what party is attracting membership by radical extremist groups and Pentecostals and which one is now to the right of the Liberal Party now?
Name one, please!"

You have lost me there. Could you explain?

And your outburst on the "Worrior Princess", is beyond my ken, too.

Always happy to discuss, but do try to be coherent, old chap.

I always thought on face value there was some merit in thinking that immigrants of today would have a tendency to vote left, because the right don't really support high immigration quotas or multiculturalism.

On that basis I think there is some merit in it, but I might be wrong
- And here's why -

As others pointed out to me at the time, immigrants who are religious, Muslims for example are not likely to go along with the lefts support and celebration of gay people, which may in fact lead them to vote conservative.

- So I don't really know what the truth of it is.

Paul1405

Bernardi's greatest claim to fame is that he left the Libs and formed the Australian Conservatives who also absorbed Family First yet managed to sink both parties at the same time at the following election.

Now he appears on a barely rating Sky TV show (for the moment) as an embarrassing irrelevance, spewing propaganda, echoing conspiracies and "shouting into the void" like his contemporaries.

Hi rache,

Oh! How the mighty have fallen! Yes pre 2019 ttbn was all cock-a-hoop about the prospects of the New Messiah, He was on here making all kinds of outrageous predictions concerning the imminent success of his new love, 'The Australian Conservatives', it sunk quicker than the Titanic, one of the greatest failures in Australian politics ever. These people never accept responsibility for their failures, it always, the other guys fault.

What's your opinion of Big Clive and the Palmer Party, have they now finally been consigned to the dust bin of Australian political history, or will Big Clive make another comeback and again pump millions of dollars of other peoples money into failed politics.

What about the gangreens Mr Dinner tally?

Disappeared off the face of the map.

I think that we have enough to worry about with the current crop of self-serving political arseholes to waste time on their long gone counterparts.

Albanese's fervour to wipe out all traces of conservatism - and the last government which really wasn't conservative - includes the disbanding of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal because it was "stacked with Liberal Party figures.

The Tribunal will be replaced with a new organisation more to Albanese's liking which will, of course, not be "stacked" with his cronies!

No need, I suppose, as his immigration stooge has already said that the Albanese government will be soft on illegal immigration and border protection.

Paul1405

I really don't know what Clive's intentions are at the moment. He's been completely silent since he blew all that money on hise failed election bid.

He went into Federal Parliament when Campbell Newman rejected his bid to build his own railway in Queensland's Galilee Basin and now the whole mine itself is under a new legal threat so maybe he'll try for some sort of comeback.

I think voters could see the blatant attempt to buy his way into Parliament and rejected it. His attendance record while in Parliament was quite abysmal but then again so is Pauline Hanson's and nobody seems to notice. Also like Pauline, some of Clive's elected candidates deserted him once they were elected.

I like to think we've reached an new era in politics and can see comparisons between the excesses of Trumpism in the USA and our own system.

Collectable superhero Clive NFTs maybe?

Armchair Critic asked:

"So what happens when all candidates move to the left or embrace agendas you oppose?"

I don't care if AC donkey votes for the rest of his life where this to happen - there are just some old conservative 'market rules all' ideas that deserve to die.

We are entering a period of profound climate chaos where much higher government intervention will be required in a number of spheres of life. I'm not full Commo - but am Ordo-Liberal.

Basically, I hope the Liberal party and their sad climate denial and racism die out. I hope the new debate is between the Greens and Labor and Teals - who I understand to be conservative economically but unlike the Liberal Deniers actually accept the science of climate change. Australia will be better off when the last vestiges of ScoMo's and Lord Voldemort's legacy just dies.

Max,

You must be smoking your socks if you seriously believe that "the Greens and Labor and Teals - who I understand to be conservative economically"

As for racism the "voice" is hugely racist, and many Labor and greens are deeply antisemitic.

SM,

Like those Coalition and their One Nation allies are bigots and racists, they hate speak against Aboriginals, Muslims anyone in a perceived detested minority, assertive women etc etc. But they always throw out that old chestnut; "I'm not racists, Muslim's are not a race, I can hate them without being racists". Was it not Liberal minister George Brandis who declared he would defend the rights of racists and bigots. It didn't say much for George does it. Didn't Dave Sharma launch attacks on Palestinians based on his race and their race. And The Lovely Pauline, a fine example of an Asian hater, come Muslim hater. And the Liberals are happy to take preference votes from One Nation.

Paul,

Considering that the bigots anti-Semitic racists in the gangreens are proposing a version of apartheid for Australia, you don't have a leg to stand on.

It's funny how there are more coalition members recognised for working with aboriginal communities than in labor and the gangreens.