Hi Robert (and all)

I agree again that integrity over time is good.

By integrity I mean behaving the same as you profess to believe, or behaving the same way whether someone is watching or not.

Changing the wording from "restraint" to "living by their stated values" is fine, however, the topic of concern was "restraint" and "the value of virginity". The change puts the focus back on Abbott, not his words.

It is easy to shoot the messenger to ignore the message! It is practiced on all sides of debates to avoid honest searching and evaluation. I assume by your prior words that evasion wasn't your intent.

Re the "restraint" issue, Abbott and Marsh, many older folk, as well as those SOMETIMES destructive religions people proclaim restraint as valid and positive. Yet many of these people lived wild and loose when young. They most likely DID practice what they preached at THAT time.

Few things are as common as young people and stubborn people ignoring or shouting down other voices. I did it. Some of my uni lecturers wanted me ousted because of loud and defiant anti-religion statements. I found reason to change (on issues if faith as well as sexual practices). If a person can change their mind, is there really a danger in exercising caution?

Changing the analogy from theft to rape is also fine, except that like shooting the messenger, it allows opportunity to evade the issue. I chose 'theft' because it points at all of us. We are all 'bad' in measure. And 'bad' does exist. The challenge is in knowing what is 'bad' and protecting the vulnerable (especially kids) and those we have a responsibility to protect (such as OUR KIDS).

We are all vulnerable. We all change our mind at times. We don't always get wiser ... many of us become more entrenched in old pleasurable, insulating or addictive habits. If more conservative voices don't speak, who speaks. Go and visit China and see what happens then.

I find this current debate about the importance of father hood refreshing.
As a Gen-x young woman, I was assured that a career and eventual marriage were my birthright. As an adult Gen-x, I see neither were.

The men of my generation were enthusiastic about co-habiting, but remarkably negative about any type of genuine marriage or commitment.
Until, it seems, they hit 30, when they finally got over the threat of nuclear war.

I feel infinitely grateful that at the age of 32, my darling husband (aged 35) finally met me. We were married within six months and I embarked on a new life of optimism, happiness and meaningful love.

Hopefully my own three children will be raised without the cynicism, selfishness and pessimism that surrounded sexual love for my own generation in their youth.

Absolutely on the money Warwick. What indeed would Joelia Gillard know about raising children and daughters in particular! Keep it up and hopefully McClelland will see the light and not allow the current laws to be changed...

Oh yeah, and by the way, I was 27 and a virgin when my wife and I got married. It was ABSOLUTELY worth waiting for sex.

I now have a 4 year old daughter (as well as two boys) and even though I can't control what they do, I'm definitely going to encourage all 3 of them to wait for marriage too. I can't recommend the concept highly enough.

Oh yeah, and even though my wife and I didn't have any 'experience' before marriage, we've worked out what to do since then all right. :) ;)