Many things that have occurred in recent times clearly indicates to me that we will not see any progress in the negotiations as detailed by Mr. Singer in his article.
Firstly, the US has shown that they have clearly lost interest in the Middle East as a major foreign policy priority through a distinct lack of 'genuine' effort since the Obama regime came to power. That doesn't mean that they didn't go through the motions, because they did. The appointment of an Ambassador to address the factors limiting progress in this hotbed of failed diplomacy, not to mention wars, was a good start if anyone thought they were serious. Then visits to the Middle East by Obama, sprouting the right words when required, other visits by the compromised Clinton making little effort to hide her New York controlled baggage, were designed to impress the world. But that's all over now.
Supporting Israel for the next 10 years now includes a $50 billion 'aid' price tag committment to Israel. This means that the US will continue to pay real money to use them as a geographical buffer against Islam, the payback price being the West Bank and other land grabs by the Israelis.
Obama, after all has other fish to fry domestically, just to stay alive.
Jordan and Egypt as negotiators are unlikely to waste any more time on this futile academic exercise. A state of denial exists because a deal has already been agreed and the Palestinians can continue to remain as pawns in this tired old game. After all, they are certainly used to it.
Solve the two-state solution? Obama has already said clearly, not in my time. How about, never?

A “geographical barrier to Islam”?

This is a poorly conceived strategy. Consult serious scholars of Islamic history and you’ll find that Islam has never, and could never have, been spread by the sword. How then is it spread? Here is a clue from a story from the time of the Prophet
Source: http://www.sahaba.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=227

QUOTE
Evidently both Said Ibn Zayd and Fatimah, daughter of al-Khattab, managed to conceal their acceptance of Islam from the Quraysh and especially from Fatimah's family for some time. She had cause to fear not only her father but her brother Umar who was brought up to venerate the Kabah and to cherish the unity of the Quraysh and their religion. Umar was a headstrong young man of great determination. He saw Islam as a threat to the Quraysh and became most violent and unrestrained in his attacks on Muslims. He finally decided that the only way to put an end to the trouble was to eliminate the man who was its cause..

Goaded on by blind fury he took up his sword and headed for the Prophet's house. On his way he came face to face with a secret believer in the Prophet who seeing Umar's grim expression asked him where he was going. "I am going to kill Muhammad..."
There was no mistaking his bitterness and murderous resolve. The believer sought to dissuade him from his intent but Umar was deaf to any arguments. He then thought of diverting Umar in order to at least warn the Prophet of his intentions.
"O Umar," he said, "Why not first go back to the people of your own house and set them to rights?"
"What people of my house?" asked Umar.
"Your sister Fatimah and your brother-in-law Said. They have both forsaken your religion and are followers of Muhammad in his religion..."
Umar turned and made straight for his sister's house. There he called out to her angrily as he approached. Khabbab ibn al-Aratt who often came to recite the Quran to Said and Fatimah was with them then. When they heard Umar's voice, ...
Cont......1/2

Cont...2/2
When they heard Umar's voice, Khabbab hid in a corner of the house and Fatimah concealed the manuscript. But 'Umar had heard the sound of their reading and when he came in, he said to them: "What is this gibbering I heard?"
They tried to assure him that it was only normal conversation that he had heard but he insisted: "Hear it I did," he said, "and it is possible that you have both become renegades."
"Have you not considered whether the Truth is not to be found in your religion?" said Said to Umar trying to reason with him. Instead, Umar set upon his brother-in-law hitting and kicking him as hard as he could and when Fatimah went to the defence of her husband, Umar struck her a blow on her face which drew blood.
"O Umar," said Fatimah angrily. "What if the Truth is not in your religion! I bear witness that there is no god but Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of God."
Fatimah's wound was bleeding, and when Umar saw the blood he was sorry for what he had done. A change came over him and he said to his sister:
"Give me that script which you have that I may read it." Like them Umar could read, but when he asked for the script, Fatimah said to him:
"You are impure and only the pure may touch it. Go and wash yourself."
Thereupon Umar went and washed himself, and she gave him the page on which was written the opening verses of Surah Ta-Ha. He began to read it and when he reached the verse, 'Verily, I alone am God, there no deity but me. So, worship Me alone, and be constant in Prayer so as to remember Me,' he said: "Show me where Muhammad is."
Umar then made his way to the house of al-Arqam and declared his acceptance of Islam and the Prophet peace be upon him and all his companions rejoiced.
UNQUOTE

A more constructive path: enter into a dialogue with Islam for peace and justice

Any negotiations are a complete waste of time while Israel includes reparations for Jews from Arab coutries as a precondition. Palestine cannot possibly deliver this. Even if an agreement on reparations was reached it would require many other countries to agree and would drag out the whole process by years.

If Obama has shown little interest in this issue, perhaps it's because he realistically sees there is no process.

The most simple solution would be for Egypt to retake control of Gaza, which was a protectorate of Egypt prior to the 6-Day War; and Jordan retake control of the once-part of Jordan, the West Bank. Jordan has proven that it has both the power and will to control murderous groups that threaten its regime.

"Israelis" who have moved across the green line into the West Bank (not a internationally recognised border, but an armistice line between Israel and Jordan), should either move back into Israel or assume some legal arrangement with Jordan - perhaps dual citizenship Israeli/Jordanian in which case they should be subject to Jordanian law - and Jordan decide those who later wish to live within its borders.

The idea of a Palestinian homeland lies dead in the water. Arafat himself stated that there was no such identity as Palestinian, that they were Syrians - as were the original peoples of Jordan . Those living on the West Bank would certainly enjoy a better standard of life as Jordanians, than be subjected to the line of either opportunistic murderous thugs or incompetents that has been their unhappy lot.

Gazans don't even come close to being "Palestinians". They speak an Egyptian Arabic, distinct from that of the West Bank; also have familial and econonic ties to Egypt.

grateful,

A lovely parable ... but I am sorry to have to disabuse you ...

There has been more bloodshed between Islamic groups than between the Arab States and Israel.

Not a week goes by than we hear of some Islamic group blowing up either another Islamic group; or non-Moslems.

Then we have their penal codes ...

Danielle,
Like i said the barriers have never been geographic except in so far as they have prevented information about Islam from being conveyed accurately.

You speak about what "we hear". Here is an example of what we do NOT hear: http://palsolidarity.org/2010/02/11164

This takes us back to the topic. David Singer likes to invoke international law to support his case. He sees the Jews as being the conquerors of the West Bank. Yet as this one, of many, reports of daily life for the non-Jewish human beings of the West Bank makes clear, David's friends are engaged in ethnic cleansing.

Australians value compassion and a fair go. David Singer is a long way from exhibiting Australian values. Acquiescence to,if not support for, his agenda relies on a media that is largely complicit in ensuring that the true character of this agenda remains hidden from the general public.
salaams

Danielle,
You state: "Gazans don't even come close to being "Palestinians". They speak an Egyptian Arabic, distinct from that of the West Bank; also have familial and econonic ties to Egypt."

A little lesson in history (courtesy of Wikipaedia)

QUOTE

Sderot was founded in 1951 next to the Gevim-Dorot transit camp, on the land of the former Palestinian village of Najd.[8]The first settlers of Sderot were Kurdish and Persian immigrants who lived in tents and shacks before permanent housing was completed in 1954. .....UNQUOTE

What happened to the Palestinians?

QUOTE
Najd was a Palestinian Arab village, located 14 kilometers (9 mi) northeast of Gaza City. During the British Mandate in Palestine, children from Najd attended school in the nearby village of Simsim. On 13 May, 1948, Najd was occupied by Jewish soldiers from the Negev Brigade as part of Operation Barak.[5] The inhabitants were expelled and fled to Gaza, and the village was then completely destroyed and leveled to the ground. In 1951, the town of Sderot was built over the village lands.
UNQUOTE

This is called ethnic cleansing.

# Danielle
Your solution of joint Israeli/Jordanian citizenship for West Bank Jewish residents is an option although I do not think it would be acceptable.

What I believe should happen is that Israel and Jordan sit down and redraw the current international boundary between their respective states by dividing sovereignty in the West Bank between them.

Israel has already indicated that it is prepared to cede at least 90% of the West Bank (where 95% 0f the Arab population currently reside)so the redrawing of the boundary should be a relatively simple task to achieve.

Arab residents of the West Bank will become Jordanian citizens and Jewish residents will remain Israeli citizens.

Where Jews or Arabs are on the wrong side of the new border they will become citizens of that state or be compensated to move to the other side of the new border.

I agree there is only one solution which will have to involve Jordan's return to the West Bank.

# grateful

1. The article you refer to does not involve territory in the West Bank

2. The dispute is a long running dispute which has been before the Courts and resolved in favour of the Jewish claimants as owners of the property

3. Would you call the massacre of 67 Jews in Hebron and the expulsion of the Jewish community from Hebron in 1929 "ethnic cleansing"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

4. Would you call the expulsion of all Jews from the West Bank and East Jerusalem after Jordan's conquest of these areas in 1948 "ethnic cleansing"

Just think - if Jordan returned to the West Bank everything could virtually change overnight.

Shooting the messenger and ignoring the message is always the favoured tactic adopted by those who lack the ability to engage in a rational discussion of what is being proposed and choose to do so behind an anonymous name.

If that's your idea of a fair go - its not mine.

grateful,

I lived in an Islamic country for many years ...

Re: Islamic barbarity in the Middle East, the need for reform: Read: Ibn Warraq, Haras Rafiq, Nasr Hamid Abu Zayd, Wafa Sultan, Muhammad Iqbal, Jamal ad-Din al-Afghani, Sayyid Ahmed Khan, Nasr Hamid Abu Zayd, Ali Abd ar-Raziq, Fatima Mernissi ...

If you are Islamic, do you recognise Sufis, Shia, Kurds and Sunni as fully legitimate Muslims? Do you believe that Muslims who disagree with you are apostates?

Explain takfir, and taqiyya ...

I witnessed an Imam using WWII footage. The most cynical and calculated lie to promote Islam and denegrate Jews - taqiyya- came when he showed the US military entering the Nazi death camps. Pointing to the Jewish inmates, he stated they were Germans, placed in these terrible camps by Jews.

Explain the Palestinian civil war, the ongoing genocide against Christian Assyrians by Muslim Arabs and Kurds; the explusion of the 900,000 Jewish population who lived in Arab States; the condition of Palestinians within Arab States.

The savagery of the Iranian Islamic Penal Code - little girls of 9 yrs, and boys of 15 years tried as adults, and as adults, executed.
http://www.fidh.org/IMG/pdf/ir_un2005a.pdf

Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?! Non-Jews comprise 26% of Israel's population - over 20% of Israel's total population are Islamic Arabs (formerly Palestinians). Israeli citizens, with all the rights other Israelis have - places in the Knesset, ambassadorial positions abroad, community and business leaders, university students and lecturers.

Palestinians enter Israel daily for work being assured of equitable wages with all Israelis, also being entitled to Israeli medical cover, and other benefits.

Doesn't the Jewish community notice; or perhaps it is due to Israel's Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, May 14, 1948, which affirms:

"The State of Israel...will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations."

Danielle and David,
Can we start by not demarcating people in terms of their "ethnicities". It is far too reminscent of South African apartheid. Instead let's speak of human beings and whether they have been subject to injustice or have committed an injustice.

“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. “ (From the Prophet’s Last Sermon)

I fully acknowledge Jews of Hebron suffered injustice. I also fully acknowledge anti-Semitism must be the vilest form of hatred invented by human beings:

“O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is acquainted with all that ye do.” (Qur’aan, 5:8)

But let’s acknowledge that peace will never come without justice and this requires making judgements about people according to whether their behaviour is just or unjust and NOT in terms of their ethnicity or any other bonds such as friendship or family:

“O ye who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do.” Qur’an (4:135)

This is where I’m coming from. What about yourselves?

David you insist on evidence of ongoing attempts displace human being based on their ethnicity on the West Bank. An example follows in the form of events that happened no more than 3 weeks ago.

cont..

QUOTE
Israeli forces demolish 17 buildings in northern West Bank
10 January 2010

http://palsolidarity.org/2010/01/10558

Israeli military forces have demolished 17 buildings in the Palestinian community of Khirbet Tana for the second time. This is the only the most recent chapter in a long struggle for the small agricultural community to keep their lands.

The Israeli army arrived this morning to the village in a convoy of jeeps and bulldozers and razed 17 buildings to the ground. The demolished structures included family homes, children’s classrooms and shelters for the village’s livestock. Several olive trees were also razed to the ground. In a statement issued by the Israeli military, the buildings were had demolished due to the fact they were “illegally constructed structures” built on a military training ground, “endangering the lives of those present”.

Khirbet Tana centered around two natural springs, lying 7km east of Beit Furik in the Nablus area of the West Bank. It is currently home to approximately 35 families, some of whom reside there permanently, and some who stay only during the spring and winter seasons due to the regions’ remoteness and harsh climates. Residents say that references to the villages existence date back to over 3500 years ago.
This is not the first time that this has happened. In 2005 Israeli forces demolished almost the entire village, leaving only the mosque, built over 150 years previously. Despite the majority of the dwellings having been built several hundred years ago, the military claimed they had been built without permission and thus had the right to demolish. The entire area was categorised as Area C – under full Israeli military and civilian control – in the Oslo Accords of 1994.

Residents also suffer from the ongoing threat from settlers from the nearby settlement of Mekhora, built on the lands of Khirbet Tana and Beit Furik. The settlers are ultimately those who benefit from the destruction of Khirbet Tana, as their agricultural projects continue to expand on to village land. On at least one occasion settlers have been sighted swimming in Khirbet Tana’s source of drinking water, …..

UNQUOTE

#grateful

Regrettably in telling the story of Khirbet Tana you fail to mention that in 2005 the High Court of Justice ruled that the construction of the structures was not legal, and the residents' efforts to overturn the ruling have failed.

If you believe in not upholding Court judgements and prefer instead to incite lawlessness and anarchy by only telling half the story- I don't.

You ask where I am coming from?

I want to see an end to the killing and bloodshed of both Arabs and Jews in a senseless struggle that has been going on for the last 130 years because the Arabs have never been and still are not prepared to tolerate one Jewish State occupying an area that is just .001% of the total area occupied by 22 oil rich Arab States.

The two- state solution to create a 23rd Arab State between Israel and Jordan has clearly failed after 16 years of diplomatic efforts to achieve this solution.

President Obama says determining sovereignty in the West Bank and Gaza is an "intractable problem"

I do not think it is.

The return of Jordan to the West Bank will free its Arab residents of Israeli control. If Khirbet Tana comes under Jordan's jurisdiction it can reverse the Court's decision if it thinks fit. The present road blocks and detours will be ended. People will be able to get on with their lives. Arabs who were "Jordanians" until July 28, 1988 will once again be called "Jordanians". They will be citizens of and have passports issued by Jordan and have not one Jew living among them (unless they choose to stay and to accept Jordanian citizenship)

I am happy to discuss the proposal to divide the West Bank between Jordan and Israel as I believe it is now the only solution to prevent a break out of hostilities if it is not swiftly implemented.

I am not going to be diverted by attempts to score propaganda points that have nothing to do with Jordan's return to the West Bank which it last ruled between 1948-1967.

David ,

You say: “Regrettably in telling the story of Khirbet Tana you fail to mention that in 2005 the High Court of Justice ruled that the construction of the structures was not legal, and the residents' efforts to overturn the ruling have failed.”

However, the report states the following:

Quote
This is not the first time that this has happened. In 2005 Israeli forces demolished almost the entire village, leaving only the mosque, built over 150 years previously. Despite the majority of the dwellings having been built several hundred years ago, the military claimed they had been built without permission and thus had the right to demolish. The entire area was categorised as Area C – under full Israeli military and civilian control – in the Oslo Accords of 1994.
unquote

In your reply,
(1) You pay no attention to the claim that buildings that IDF soldiers had claimed were illegal had in fact been there several hundred years.

(2)You are not concerned that IDF soldiers may have made false testimony to the court

(3)You display no compassion for the human beings who have had homes bulldozed and equipment confiscated

(4)You are not concerned about the behaviour of settlers from Itamar who are reported to have threatened residents and contaminated their drinking water by swimming in their well: http://palsolidarity.org/2005/07/109

If you are truly concerned about the “senseless violence” then surely you would want to see justice applied equally and without favour.

Have you heard of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions? This demolition occurred on the 18th January 2010
QUOTE
http://www.icahd.org/eng/news.asp?menu=5&submenu=1&item=757
The Municipality of Tel Aviv, accompanied by heavily armed private security forces and police, demolished the Dakkeh family home yesterday in South East Jaffa.

Police arrived at 8am with faces covered and aggressively ordered the family out, pointing weapons at an elderly woman and children in the home. The elderly resident required assistance during the raid but her daughter was denied entry in order to help. ....
CONT...

CONT...
On arrival of local community representatives police removed their masks but refused to display identification throughout the day.

The Dakkeh family have been through the courts to challenge impending demolitions in their neighbourhood that now threaten more than a hundred residents. The properties are owned by resident families and have been passed down through generations predating the State of Israel. Decades ago the land was an orange orchard but today it stands as an urban Jaffa neighbourhood. Despite this, the Tel Aviv Municipality continues to zone the area as agricultural land, rendering nearly all homes illegal even though they are built and occupied by the owners of the properties.

The Regional Court refused to permit the demolitions finding that residents had never been given a reasonable opportunity to build lawfully because the Tel Aviv Municipality had neglected planning in the neighbourhood since the inception of the State. Meanwhile, the Municipality was prepared to issue Plato Sharon's company with a permit to build 1500 apartments should they succeed in ridding the neighborhood of its current owners through compensation offers.

On appeal to the High Court the demolitions were permitted to go ahead on legal technicality, and no judgment was passed on the substance of the residents' argument. Consequently, several more families face impending demolitions in the neighbourhood.

Essentially, this is a settlement plan for Jaffa not unlike those underway in East Jerusalem where Municipal planning law is used to displace Arab families in order to make way for Jewish residents.
UNQUOTE

Clearly the justice system is being corrupted. Doesn't this concern you?

# grateful

Your quote from the article on Khirbet Tana makes no mention of the Court decision in 2005. It is a disingenuous piece of writing designed to deceive and mislead - as appears to have been its affect on you.

Your latest case in Tel Aviv deals with another Court decision which was not accepted by the Arabs - aided and abetted by others for whom the rule of law is similarly not their priority.

You state:"Clearly the justice system is being corrupted. Doesn't this concern you?"

Quite frankly this is an inane allegation to make. Hundreds of cases have been decided by Israeli Courts in favour of Arab applicants. Even the Tel Aviv case you refer to was decided in their favour in the first instance but overturned on appeal. This is not an unusual occurrence in most democratic countries where the rule of law is respected and observed.

Your claim therefore of justice being corrupted is simply utter nonsense.

Are you yet prepared to discuss how the hatred,bitterness and resentment can be ended?

Clearly the two-state solution cannot be implemented because Israel and the Palestinian Authority have been unable to reach agreement after 17 years of trying.

Perhaps your next post could be addressed to that issue - especially regarding the suggestion that the Palestinian Authority be replaced by Jordan as Israel's negotiating partner to determine the future sovereignty of the West Bank.

You may even have a better suggestion so let's hear about it.

grateful,

Israel’s constitutional change of 1992:

Professsor Yifat Holzman-Gazit, Land Expropriation in Israel: Law. Culture and Society (Ashgate, 2007)

Holzman-Gazit examines the undemocratic land expropriation philosophy applied by the Supreme Court to both Arabs and Jews alike from 1948 until the 1980s; then analyses the important constitutional change of 1992 and its impact on the legal treatment of property rights under Israeli law. She demonstrates the application of these laws.

In conclusion, Holzman-Gazit recommends such laws be implemented for successful management of any global project.

Khirbet Tana 2005:

The dwellings comprised of stone or concrete blocks covered with metal sheets , as you say “built several hundred years ago” ... no sanitation. Livestock was kept in caves. Because of the temperature, these dwellings were not lived in for the entire year. The community, as a whole with their livestock , moved annually to Beit Foureek.

With due process the inhabitants of Khirbet Tana were provided with notification of demolition and the right to appeal under article #13741. None was made. The buildings were demolished except for the Mosque and a cement building. Prior to demolition, Israeli soldiers neatly arranged all school furniture, including chairs and blackboard against the Mosque wall. Hardly evidence of malice.

you state:

Khirbet Tana 2010:

“... ... built on a military training ground, “endangering the lives of those present”.

Surely a valid reason for demolishing these structures.

Report: ‘No way home: The tragedy of the Palestinian diaspora’ (30 October 2009)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/no-way-home-the-tragedy-of-the-palestinian-diaspora-1806790.html

“... Palestinian economy that is kept afloat by the world's highest per capita receipts of foreign aid. ...”

A question raised: Why, after 60 years and billions of dollars in foreign aid, ‘not one refugee camp in the West Bank or Gaza has been replaced by modern housing’ .

The Palestinian Authority must bear much responsibility for the squalid living conditions endured by Palestinians under its authority.

Read the Report in full - a definitive condemnation of Arab States and their ill will towards Palestinians. I have to agree with david singer, but Jordan’s attitude to Palestinians bodes ill ...