Oh dear, oh my what a lot of hand ringing.

It is also true that women who hold misandristic attitudes can come from any class.

During my college years, there were some very ill mannered behaviour, not only on the part of men, but women as well.

It would seem to me that Nina takes any opportunity that she can to take a swipe at the male gender. It is rather tiresome.

lets get past the hyperbole and dig deeper under the artifical layers of misbehaviour and feminist theory.

But then the matrons always disapproved of any behaviour that they thought was unacceptable.

I guess that until they (feminist) discover a way of controlling male behaviour, to what they deem to be acceptable, or someone figures out a way to neuter all pubescent males, there will always be problems that Nina just loves to write about.

Nina,
You are in danger becoming counter productive to you argument by being myopic and polarised. In the process you over emphasise your point and are only reaching the converted....the out of average female, those with gender victim issues or those with bad attitudes of their own (anti male/female).

You might like to take a more realistic objective perception. Experience tells me that current circumstances are a little more complex and that right's issue of the 60's are well underway and that it's time to consider that males cop it too.

My worse experiences are mostly due to unfair treatment by females in that I was defenseless unless I resorted to violence,unpalatable brinkmanship and escalation.

It is a nonsense to suggest that men don't suffer this and similar discrimination from either gender.

Surveys I've seen show of reported cyber bullying is weighted towards females in the younger generation. My point is the discrimination or nastiness isn't exclusively one sided.

I don't disagree with what you say perhaps you could consider the more productive perspective of Bad behaviour and unfair discrimination is rife regardless of gender.

Power struggles are as natural as they are undesirably internecine to a society, nation etc.

Maybe, just maybe, these bachelors are reflecting the values of a society who demanded parents not discipline their children.

Thus, the wanton sense of endless and selfish “entitlement”, displayed by loutish thugs, who rape at will and demonstrate that they have no concept of the rights of or respect for others, is the price of them never receiving a timely whack across the arse when they actually needed it.

In short, the payback for listening to a bunch of whoosy psychologists and assorted and often self appointed “experts”, who demand to order people in matter of raising children (despite having none of their own) and who still complain bitterly when a parent applies a salutary hand to the buttocks of a toddler screaming to get its own way or teenager who feels entitled to trash public facilities and people’s houses. Such delinquents being confident in the knowledge that there is no real punishment allowed in the nanny state, where abhorrent behavior is resolved by hand holding and clinical self-assessment courses, instead of hard gaol time

I didn't at all consider that the article was an exercise in "man-hating". Nor have I ever much thought or come across feminists whom take the time to write considered articles etc to be, in general, "man-haters".

But what I have noticed is that when criticism is made of supposedly "fun", "carefree", and "it's just a joke" type behaviours that are considered normal by a sufficiently large selection of people then there is always somewhat of a backlash. Not so much because a nerve has been struck but because any person who criticises the norm will always been seen as a bit of a loony and as someone who obviously doesn't understand the "real" world. People in this category are typically seen to have an "axe to grind" because why else would they think such behaviour isn't okay?

Boys who run crazy at college as described in the article do exist. And boys that don't exist too. It is not an essentially a male trait to behave in such ways. It is not just "boys being boys" because such a concept precludes the many boys whom don't participate. This is why, among other things, such behaviour is and can be criticised and why those whom think such behaviour is merely normal and part of the essence of being male are plain wrong. Such behaviours are social behaviours and social behaviours are subject to change.

meh, just another unhappy feminist chant.

To sum the article up....

'and they have been proactive about working in collaboration with expert feminists.'

Translation; Damn, it's not fair, I want a cushy role with this board like Lumby got with the NRL board.

'expert feminist'?

Or, a useful name for organisations to bandy about when they need to do some pr damage control. You're not quite there yet Nina, but keep at it.

WTF?
In her article on 28 February this year Nina Funnell states, “A number of my friends take pole dancing classes. Another two have had boob jobs. And many of my friends enjoy big nights out on the booze. They also swear, smoke and have sex… these women are highly successful, motivated, intelligent individuals. They would take great offence at the suggestion that they have been unthinkingly duped or coerced into their current lifestyles.”

The problem with this article isn't the message, it is the messenger. WTF? and myself cannot be the only two readers who see the problem with Nina writing this article.

I don't know how bad the "define consent" Facebook page really was, its title makes it sound more like a legitimate debate about points of law. However, boorish behaviours amongst far too many males in our society is a real problem.

On the other hand, Nina has described herself as a "sexual libertarian" and written in praise of women who behave in a way that is similar to these blokes (see "Don't Patronise Ladies who Raunch"). She looks like a total hypocryte who can only damage the reputation of the feminist causes that she wants to champion.

It's pretty obvious really.

Some bloke at college, knocked poor nina back, & she has never got over it.

Come on love, get on with it.

Liberty is a word and a concept that can only go so far. My freedom and your freedom can collide. What then? There is an obvious tension between claiming a liberty and claiming that another person's behaviour limits or diminishes a liberty. This is a very difficult area.

In any case, there is nothing inconsistent in claiming a liberty to be, among other things, sexually promiscuous while at the same time admonishing others for taking their liberty too far with sexual behaviour that is violent and oppressive.

I see nothing wrong - in terms of sexual politics - with girls or boys wanting to binge drink, be sexually promiscuous, be raunchy, etc. But this behaviour can cross a line.

It's this line that Nina appears to take issue with and the fact that boys more than girls cross it because it is more socially acceptable for boys to do so. Not so clearly in a broader social sense - the media does appear to sometimes take such behaviour to task - but most definitely in a local "boys club", "rugby club", "high school footy team" etc sense.

I often wonder why picks the teaser for articles.

"men who hold misogynist and sexist attitudes can come from any class, community or culture."

The teaser sort of fitted the article but maybe what Nina's arguments really demonstrated was that people who are treated as priviliged and constantly told that they are a cut above the rest can easily develop a remarkable lack of respect for others.

I'm guessing that some feminists won't see any need for Nina to be more even handed in her writing, I have a different view. If Nina had said that "people who hold mis.... and sexist attitudes can come from any class, community or culture." she might have had little objection.

Continuing to focus on the wrongs of men as though men hold the sole rights to hurtful behaviour and a lack of respect for others is getting very old. It might make Nina and a handfull or others feel better but I doubt that it does much else.

R0bert

I wonder if some women just get upset because they are not in control of the silly little games they play. Often they want to dress as sex objects and then whinge when men perve on them, they want to speak filthy language until someone speaks back to them, they want to be the boss but play the victim.

NIna writes

'Clearly, men who hold misogynist and sexist attitudes can come from any class, community or culture.'
Also clearly women who have never been taught to be ladies come from any class, community or culture.' She would do well to speak out for her Muslim sisterhood instead of harping on about a lot of the problems created by women who want to act loose and be treated like ladies.

There is research into female bullying techniques.

Part of the female tactic is to tell bad/false stories, spreading rumours, writing nasty notes, gossiping and revealing others secrets.

I think it was Daphne Patai or it could have Hoff-Summers who wrote about how feminists stoked their anger, it is similar to the techniques by football clubs prior to a match, where the other side it put down, and have bad, nasty things said about them.

Basically by focussing on the all bad things that a small number of men have done to some women, there by taring all men with the same brush.

It colours and distorts perceptions in a similar way that if a person only associated with criminals, it would be easy to beleive that everyone was a criminal, even though the vast majority are or attempt to be law abiding citizens.

Someone once wrote that when a feminist uses the word, misogyinistic, it means "How dare you disagree with me". Another wrote that it was a waste of energy trying to have a rational arguement with them,

The only posts that seem to comprehend the core issue are those by twistoflime.

To posters who see some conflict between Nina's earlier article and this one: pole dancing; drinking; promiscuity - all of those occur as the individual's choice. They are not an open invitation for any thug to invade the person. Consent is the issue.

For example, if a bloke regularly gets drunk at the pub; flashes a bit in a fit of mild hooliganism and brags about his conquests - does that mean it's ok for someone else to rape him? Consent is the issue.

As to wider social implications: the rest of the posts here simply demonstrate that support for a female-abusive culture is so ingrained in the 'social norm' that people are blind to it.

Australia is a sexist society, however women want it that way. I know because I whenever I tried to crack the glass ceiling I scored a stilehetto to the face by the lipstick brigade.

This website though? What did they do on it? Was it along the lines of fantasy league? I only read it said things like raping the opposition in soccer games which would make them possibly of the feather boa brigade rather than sexists. Could be gay soccer fetish site from what I know.

NRL does have an issues.

One is that there has possibly been cover ups to protect corporate ends and this is a wide ranging issue that affect victims of bullying and customers as well. It is just expensive and stressful to try and get justice against corporate giants. When caught out they grovel to the click counter obssessed media and send the sinners to the norty corner until a little time has passed. Then they assess whether said criminal is still able to make them money and forgiveness is based on possible future earnings. Our new justice system.

Hormones as well, those nasty critters send young people into all the wrong directions at times.

Reporting on Facebook is lazy journalism. Anyone anywhere can anonymously create Facebook pages. In the old days journos would have to get off their butts and do something called field research, now they sit on computers and wait for their news feeds to arrive and scan internet sites for obscene content. Those students baited for a reaction and got one, it was internet trolling. Usually trolling gets the fellow site users into a ravel but thanks to lazy journos that outrage now extends to our mainstream media channels. There's an adage on the internet "don't feed the troll" - journalists offer them smorgasbords.

Nina, I'm sorry but you really should get one, they're good.

A life that is.

Twist of Lime

I still believe that Nina has left herself wide open for an allegation of double-standards. She often attacks men for the way they conduct their sex life yet finds excuses for women. Skilled advocates anticipate counter-arguments, yet Nina leaves herself open to this type of attack.

I have a track record on this forum of being equally critical of promiscuous behaviour from either gender. I dislike sleazy men for a variety of reasons, but most notably because I have seen so many women hurt by their selfishness. I dislike sleazy women for a variety of similar reasons, but Nina’s hypocrisy is hardly unique to her.

Twist of Lime, you wrote "I see nothing wrong - in terms of sexual politics - with girls or boys wanting to binge drink, be sexually promiscuous, be raunchy, etc. But this behaviour can cross a line." You seem to have a way with words, tell us more about where you think this line is. Think carefully, because both genders will need to toe it.

Remarkable. For the fourth time in hundreds of posts, I find myself inclined to agree with col rouge.
I also agree with Pynchme.
I have to say, as sympathetic as I am to the underdog (should that be 'underbitch'?) I thought the article rested on rather more stereotypes than were strictly necessary.

Pynchme:"if a bloke regularly gets drunk at the pub; flashes a bit in a fit of mild hooliganism and brags about his conquests - does that mean it's ok for someone else to rape him?"

Perhaps not, but it does mean it's OK for the bouncers to forcibly eject him and it does mean it's OK for the police to sharge him with indecent exposure or disorderly conduct for "flashing a bit".

Just why is it not OK for the same things to happen to the woman who does the same? Why is he held to be accountable for his drunken actions while she is not? Think about the answer to that one and you might just start to work out why the "glass ceiling" exists.

Nina, as others have said and as I have pointed out before, you're quite a good writer when you avoid polemics. It's a shame that you have fallen into a culture that rewards such conformism more than the genuinely thoughful writing you're capable of producing.

Do take note that your only support for this article has come from the extremely misandric pynchme, who never met a bloke she didn't despise. Do try to aim higher, you're wasting your talents and education with this sort of guff.

The sort of behaviour that Nina writes about is nothing new.

Hellfire clubs, "These clubs were rumoured to be the meeting places of "persons of quality"[1] who wished to take part in immoral acts, and the members were often very involved in politics."

The very first known hellfire club was founded in 1719.

I think it was St Augstine, who in an effort to destroy or control pagans and enforce christanity collect a list of 'sin's' and basically any pagan behaviour became sinful and punishable.

so history repeats it self where a moral minority tries to control the behaviour of those who they find objectionable.

Antiseptic: Nice sideways step to avoid the issue of consent.

The fact is that context matters. A woman flashing her vagina would very likely be ejected from a club, except perhaps a strip club or something, or arrested for indecent exposure. Either sex flashing their genitalia in the middle of Myers on a Saturday morning would probably be charged with something or at least removed from the store. There is a wider range of discussion possible on social mores and modesty and the like; personality disorders too, if we must get clinical - but I won't follow your lead away from the core issue just yet.

The issue is consent. Nobody who is intoxicated or drugged is capable of giving it. A male who is insensible is vulnerable too, and nobody has the right to use his body while he's in that state.

Btw: You can write quite well when you're not rationalizing a narcissistic sense of entitlement to others' bodies.

Pynchme

Again I tend to agree with your theoretical perspective but that doesn't justify Nina or Anti's extreme representation of the data.

Facts are males are more inclined toward physical violence in pubs and clubs. Likewise Females tend to behave more aggressively sexual at male strippers than the other way around.

Neither side is always blameless.
As I said before, it is total nonsense to over emphasize either side.
Bad behaviour is bad behaviour regardless of gender.

I also think Nina's piece has the depth/objectivity/worth of a facebook entry hardly a discussion/thought piece.

Pre-teen mags, TV, MTV clips media movies don't help because of the stereo typing of extreme rolls for money appealing to the LOWEST denominator.

Clearly sex and sexualization is normal But discussions like this tend to emphasize, justify, excuse the extremes.

IMO it is the extremes, the excesses, in anything that are the problem. if you like the third standard deviation from the mean.

This means that numerically few actually behave in these extreme ways consistently. Their 'individuality' sells products under the guise of adding greater justification to leadership/acceptance in peer groups.
In short just because it's natural doesn't mean we should roll in it/blow it out of proportion (i.e. we all go to the toilet but....)

Yes TheMissus, Australia is a "sexist society". To that you can add "racist, homophobic, reactionary, bigoted, ageist and xenophobic".
Oh for that wonderful land just somewhere over the rainbow.

I agree with Blairbar, we certainly have many problems with our attitudes about others in this country.
Yet, strangely, Australia is one of the most sought after countries to emigrate to in the world.

Nina worries about men's behaviours in her article. I say we women are very lucky to live in Australia, where at least there are no laws dictating what we are to wear, what religion (if any) we are to practice, who we are to speak to, where we go out, or what we eat or drink (although I realise some men still try to enforce such rules in their own households)!

I understand we have a long way to go before we have gender equality in Australia, but I don't think most women have it too bad here.

Hi Blairbar
Yes TheMissus, Australia is a "sexist society". To that you can add "racist, homophobic, reactionary, bigoted, ageist and xenophobic".
Oh for that wonderful land just somewhere over the rainbow.

Ha Ha. It is sexist because we use RACE AND XENOPHOBIA to divide and conquer. A rather useful trick to divide the worker class so they lose collective power. Seems always under this condition sexism thrives for some reason, I have no qualification to say why. However it is a fascist thing and we are creeping into fascist territory ever so slowly. I do not think we will ever quite get there but will suffer many symptoms. So maybe one day yes we will be wearing more clothes, rather than less. We will be scorned for batting eyelashes once again. We will take the blame for fat kiddies addicted to sugar. The apron beckons I am afraid.

But still fail to see how a PC incorrect Facebook page on soccer has anything to do with the price of fish. We are going hysterical over some really silly things of late.

Its good to see some people can easily see through this woman's crazy double standards. A pole dancing supporter one day and willing to portray men who watch pole dancing as misogynists the next. Your articles aren't interesting just plain annoying and anti-intellectual, relying on the most base stereotyping to start arguments between people and then regarding this as giving your article some type of perverted victory in the popularity stakes.

Get a life Nina.

Consent is-not the only issue.

When Psychme comes home unexpectedly and finds her husband in bed with her sister, she won’t be saying “as long as it’s consensual it’s ok.” Psychme will be thinking about the hurt they have caused and rightly so. There are many ways that people can hurt others by the way they conduct their sex-life. Blokes who treat women as another notch on the bed head. Women who sleep around provide an excuse for men to do the same. I could go on...

Another issue is that the way a person conducts their sex-life says so much about the person. The idea that society respects men who sleep around as some type of stud is dead wrong. They look arrogant and nasty when they treat women as expendable. When certain football players were found to have all stood around watching while team-mates took turns with one woman, they looked quite odd. Sleazy blokes can also be quite dishonest to get sex.

Women who sleep around are also judged to have character faults. They look like hypocrites. I haven’t met one yet who didn’t criticise men who loved them and left them. They look like losers. I haven’t met one yet who didn’t want a long term relationship, at some stage, with the guy of their dreams. Unfortunately, he can afford to be fussy, so sleeping around is shooting themselves in the foot. They also look arrogant. They seem addicted to the attention of the type of bloke who will do anything to get sex. No-one who feels comfortable up on a pedestal looks humble. It must also take an amazing amount of self-belief when they genuinely believe that they can sleep around without looking bad

Then there is the issue of why MISSUS BRIMBLE’S RAPIST KILLERS are still walking the streets free.
They didn’t take that date rape drug on board that ship for nothing. Anything else they said at trial is a lie to escape conviction after that. How stupid can a jury be and it seems to be all part of societies ridiculous blaming of the women in these situations.

That drug was slipped into Mrs Brimbles drink at the bar and that’s why she appeared to be drunker then she actually was. Even supposing she did go to the cabin with one bloke voluntarily and I doubt that too, she certainly wouldn’t have been interesting in having it off with all his mates, any fool can see that it was totally out of character for the woman.
Then there is the injustice in the case of Andrew Johns and his rapist fellow footballers. He admitted it on National T.V. when he said “I APOLOGIES TO CLAIRE FOR ALL THE OTHER PLAYERS IN THE ROOM.”
He set that woman up, fullstop.

JUSTICE MUST BE SEEN TO BE DONE.
I said it would lead to a male belief that they can set these situations up and get away with it and now we have this recent case (which hasn’t come up for trial yet) of the AFL lot actually luring two girls to a house and locking them in two rooms while all their mates arrived. They won’t get out of this one because one of the boys they arrested admitted his guilt and asked to see his mother to try to explain “why he acted like an animal and took part in it.
Don’t tell me these lads weren’t influenced by the lack of justice in the Brimble and Andrew John’s case.

pynchme,

'A woman flashing her vagina would very likely be ejected from a club, except perhaps a strip club or something, or arrested for indecent exposure.'

Nice try, but not really. It's all in fun, liberated and sexually assertive if a woman does it, it's a perverse act of a predator if a man does it. Be honest. Myers is a red herring, it's not exactly a social pick up joint. Never been down Bourbon St have you?

'A male who is insensible is vulnerable too'
Oh pynchme. A man being vulnerable? I thought when it comes to sex, men always have the power in your eyes. The whole drunk consent thing rests on the double standards of

a) The man should be better able to handle his drink and is responsible for his actions while drunk.
b) The man is the predator, and is always up for it with anyone, where the woman is the chaste little innocent who got too tipsy.

Why do you generally accept the existence of these sort of double standards in regards to madonna/whore scenarios, but then reject them when it comes to drunken consent?

sharkfin,

'Then there is the issue of why MISSUS BRIMBLE’S RAPIST KILLERS are still walking the streets free.'

Because they haven't been found guilty. That's slander BTW. FYI, GBH is used recreationally, and Brimble asked for the drug according to some witnesses.

'any fool can see that it was totally out of character for the woman'
As is common when people use drugs. I seem to remember a story of one of the guys throwing her off him in disgust when he awoke with her on top attempting sex. I remember thinking in the media hype at the time why nobody thought of this as attempted rape, where his 'disgust' was thought of as misogynistic.

FYI2: Andrew Johns is the brother of Matthew Johns, who had consensual sex with a woman by her own admission.

H
>"That's slander BTW."<
Libel actually because its in writing, slander is verbal.

BTW He was found not guilty of manslaughter not complicity in the events.
Supplying GHB without a prescription is illegal.

You really don't have any standards do you.

Houellebecq <GBH is used recreationally, and Brimble asked for the drug according to some witnesses>

It seems strange to me that people would want to use GBH to put themselves to sleep for recreational purposes, miss the fun wouldn’t they? No, this is a drug that renders people unconscious or nearly unconscious. These men took it on board that ship for a reason.

Brimble asked for the drug according to some witnesses. Who were these fine upstanding witnesses? Why two of the other perpetrators that ‘s who. They’ve had two years to think that story up. If you were in their shoes facing a rape,murder trial (and it should be classed as murder in my book) what would your line of defence be?

<I seem to remember a story of one of the guys throwing her off him in disgust when he awoke with her on top attempting sex.>
He didn’t say she was attempting sex , he just said she had rolled on top of him while he was asleep, probably because she was unconscious or already dead she would hardly be awake wanting sex after the amount of date rape drug she was given.

Are you seriously, saying this bloke had time enough to fall into a drunken sleep for god knows how long and Missus Brimble is still conscious and trying to have sex with him after being given enough of a stupefying drug to kill her?

It makes me sick to see these men walking around free.

(For the record I did mean Matthew Johns) And I stand by my assessment of what happened in that case too.

sharkfin:"It seems strange to me that people would want to use GBH to put themselves to sleep for recreational purposes, miss the fun wouldn’t they? No, this is a drug that renders people unconscious or nearly unconscious. These men took it on board that ship for a reason."

Had a lot to do with GBH have you? Just to clear up your confusion, it's actually GHB and wikipaedia has a decent entry on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid

I quote:"GHB is a CNS depressant used as an intoxicant. It has many street names, including "Liquid Ecstasy", "Liquid X", and "Liquid G", as well as "Fantasy" and the reordered initialism GBH. At recreational doses, GHB can cause a state of euphoria, increased enjoyment of movement and music, increased libido, increased sociability and intoxication"

Yes, I have tried it, it's not bad, but it's nasty with a lot of alcohol. In my experience there is little warning of extreme drowsiness once the right amount of alcohol has been added to the system. Personally, I'd reckon sex with someone in that state would be nearly as boring an experience as with pynchme.

As Houellebecq said, there is strong evidence she ingested it willingly and that she was an active participant, even an instigator of much of the sexual shenanigans.

While your concern for the late MRS BRIMBLE is touching, it's misplaced, I suspect.

pontificator,

'Supplying GHB without a prescription is illegal.'
Indeed it is. As is taping shows off the TV. Both are a long way from murder.

'You really don't have any standards do you.'
I have standards, just different and patently superior 'standards' to yours.

anti,

Thanks for putting the missus straight. I always called it GBH as in Grievous Bodily Harm:-)

I often wonder if a bloke had bought some drugs of a young girl after pestering her for them, gone back to the girls room with the girls friends, shagged a couple of them and passed out and wound up not waking up, whether the general community reaction would be.. meh, stupid guy, at least he went out with a bang though.

I've bought drugs from girls at clubs, and I'm sure if I took too much or drank too much at the same time, and wound up dead, nobody would be looking at these girls as being responsible. It'd be my own stupid fault.

Houellebecq:

Yes men can be vulnerable, victimized and raped, in the vast majority of cases, by other men. What point are you trying to make?

Sharkfin: I am entirely in agreement with you on both cases.

It makes me sick too to see how the system is so entirely loaded against truth and justice. There were eight men; not one spine amongst them. Not one who has done anything but treat poor Ms. Brimble like she was garbage.

Antiseptic and sidekick Houellebecq:

<" Tracey Ann Muscat today became the second witness to tell the court that she heard a woman's voice saying "I'm not like that" the night before Mrs Brimble's body was found. "I heard her saying 'I'm not like that, I'm not like that,' " Ms Muscat said.">

http://www.cruisebruise.com/Dianne_Brimble.html

Antiseptic: Is your hatred of women so profound that you close your mind to facts ?

Btw: The drug is referred to as both GBH and GHB (as pointed out by Houellebecq).... but then being as familiar with drugs as you are I am sure you already knew that:

http://www.cruisebruise.com/Fantasy_GBH_Gamma_Hydroxy_Butyrate.html

Antiseptic-
If these men were regular users of this as a recreational drug as you say then you think they would be aware of the fact that it is only safe when used in quite small amounts and not taken with too much alcohol. How come they allowed her to consume such a lethal dose. How come she is dead and they aren’t?

I read some of the media reports on the trial, they said they were in the cabin with her when she was offered the drug and told that it would enhance her enjoyment of the sexual experience. If that is so then they gave her the drug right there on the spot so they must have know the quantity unlike your scenario where you bought the quantity yourself and then decided how much to take. Keep in mind that this is their version of events as she is not here to dispute what they say.

<Houellebecq said there is strong evidence she ingested it willing>

Once again reading the media report on the trial, the so called strong evidence didn’t come from any outside sources only two of the other men who were in the room when Mrs. Brimble died. I wouldn’t call that strong evidence but a desperate attempt to blame Mrs. Brimble’s death on her to save their own necks.

Don’t forget originally they said they discussed throwing her body overboard but decided it was too risky and they would be seen. Again trying to save their own necks, why? if it was all just an agreed love-in, surely they wouldn’t have considered such desperate measures if they weren’t scared out of their wits at discovery of a foul deed.
Again I ask, how come if they took the drug too , and they were the ones (according to them)that offered it to her in their cabin, presumably they would have poured her drink and handed it to her with the drug in it, she wound up dead and they didn’t. .............

sharkfin:"How come they allowed her to consume such a lethal dose"

The actual cause of death has not been established as far as I can tell, but is most likely asphyxiation due to ingesting vomit or because of an obstructed airway due to the position she was lying in. That happened when she was on her own in the cabin. The High Court has just ruled that publicans are not responsible for the well-being of their inebriated customers (at least, not the male ones, there hasn't been a test case involving a woman). Therefore, logically, these men cannot be held responsible for the actions of Mrs Brimble, especially after they all left the cabin and no one forced her to either take the GHB or drink the alcohol by all accounts.

The point, of course, regardless of the post-event panicking of some of the people involved (entirely reasonably, given the fact they had illegal drugs), is that there is always some risk in taking psychoactive substances, especially with people you don't know.

Let me ask you this, would you go off drinking and taking drugs with a bunch of loose cannons like these men are alleged to have been? It's sad that she died, but she made bad choices and such is life.

I recommend the wikipaedia page on the stuff; I suspect you'd learn a lot you don't want to think about.

pynchme:"The drug is referred to as both GBH and GHB"

Well done you! Who said you can't teach an old dog?

pynchme:"a woman's voice saying "I'm not like that""

"No, don't, stop. No, don't stop! Yes!"

Of course, "no means no" - except when it obviously doesn't...

'"No, don't, stop. No, don't stop! Yes!"

Of course, "no means no" - except when it obviously doesn't...'

I hope you're just winding them up antiseptic.

Regardless of how much people decide guilt without hearing the full evidence and being part of the Jury, the jury that was there didn't convict.

I love it how pynchme and co decide guilt based on media reports, then myself and antiseptic relay information also from media reports and state the bleeding obvious that the Jury didn't convict, but somehow the woman involved is to be believed to be this shining angel who had never taken drugs before and was taken advantage of by the abusive predator men.

You know what it's called? Spin. The pynchme spin is no more valid than the antiseptic spin. What pynchme wants to believe and what antiseptic wants to believe is the major influence on the spin.

Me, well, I just like challenging the media assigned heroes and villains in any scenario. Like I said pynchme, if a guy had obtained drugs from a girl, been invited back to her room and had sex with her and her friends, passed out and never woken up, there would be stuff all interest in the story.

It would be a simple story of a guy who took a risk with drugs and it ended badly. Certainly nobody would be looking at the girl who sold him the drugs as having any responsibility in it. Certainly there wouldn't be so much venomous hatred of the girl.

Equality will never happen while this patriarchal patronising of women continues, where all women are innocent little virgins who would only ever take drugs or have sex if coerced by a man is always assumed by the likes of pynchme and co.

Psychme

Thank-you for the link about the Brimble case. While this and everything else that I have heard about the Brimble case makes the men involved look suspicious, I cannot see how they could be convicted on the evidence. Furthermore, short of making being creepy a criminal offence, it is unclear what reforms of the legal process might produce more just outcomes. It says something disturbing about our culture that these deadbeats were able to pick-up. I'm sure that many other blokes at the disco were too nice for their own good and went back to their cabin alone.

A journalist named Paul Sheehan wrote a book about some rapes in Sydney called Girls Like You. One of the victims was asked a total of 1971 separate questions by defence lawyers. Limiting the amount of testimony that the victim is required to give is a workable suggestion that might make victims less reluctant to pursue an issue. The defendents in the case used a strategy of stalling, so that one trial was put back nine times. In the well-known Bilal Skaf case, one of the victims lost her nerve and some charges were withdrawn. Courts could also change to limit use of this tactic. None of this would change the outcome of the Brimble case, I'm just trying to keep this discussion productive.

'I'm sure that many other blokes at the disco were too nice for their own good and went back to their cabin alone.'

Haha benk I'm sure there were. Another reason could well be that they weren't offering any free drugs. At many of the bars around Sydney, the guys handing out free lines quite often go home with some very attractive ladies. I'm happy to pay for the odd drink, but my stash is mine mine mine!

Some guys with more scrilla can afford to be eternally generous I suppose and with this generosity comes a steady line of willing ladies. I still rock back to the Ivy and the Establishment some days to relive the shallow world of Easton Ellis type excess. Actually, Silvestri would be great for the part of Bateman!

'Furthermore, short of making being creepy a criminal offence...'

Don't knock it. I'm sure many women would have Silvestri jailed just for those nasty comments about fat women. Ah, I remember the circus fondly, when the TV news showed photos of Brimble 10 years younger and 20 kilos lighter just to portray their villain that little bit more of a shallow misogynist creep.

If a charming Hugh Grant type had been so careless in not helping a drunk and drugged woman, the audience would have gone all doe eyed and thought the poor guy panicked in a crazy situation where drugs have gone wrong.

Or if a beautiful young girl had been the supplier of the drugs, well, she'd be as innocent as Schapelle Corby, or a silly girl doing something 'out of character', with her mum crying 'my daughter wouldn't use drugs, I just know it!'.

Oh how our attitudes to the facts are changed by the personalities involved and the masters of outrage.

Benk- Thank you for your sensible ideas on trying to improve the justice system which so often gets it wrong in these cases.

Houellebecq you say <The Jury that was there didn’t convict>

I watched the media interview a man on T.V one night who had been bought to trial on 3 separate occasions by women unknown to each other; for rape. Three times, three different juries found him not guilty. None of the juries were permitted to know about the previous rape accusations as is the law ,so as not to predudice the jury in the case before them.
On all three occasions this man grabbed the women as they left a club and held a knife in their sides before committing the offence.
He convinced the jury that he was a kind, loving family man, whereas the woman at each trial had been leaving a night club where they had had a couple to a few drinks. In the juries eyes this threw the character of the female rape victim into a negative area apparently as they thought any woman who had been coming out of a club after having a couple of drinks (especially by herself) must be of low character and possibly a liar.
Whereas a man coming out of a club after having a few drinks who said he had been attacked would not have been thought of as a liar of low character.

Antiseptic- <Would you go off drinking and taking drugs with a bunch of loose cannons like these men are alleged to have been.>

It is only your assumption and the evidence of the accused that Mrs. Brimble voluntarily took any of the drugs that the men had in their possession.

I believe they gave her the drug whilst drinking in the bar. I think they probably administered one smaller dose earlier on and it made her a lot more intoxicated then she would have been so that her judgement was impaired as to the dangers of the situation. When it failed to stupefy her to the extent they were hoping; to get her back to their cabin instead of hers, they gave her another much larger dose. A compliance dose. Of course those in the bar see only a woman laughing (this drug you told me induces a pleasant euphoric state or heightened pleasure or some such thing ) but onlookers in the bar don’t realize that she is laughing and relaxed(unwary) because she has been slipped a dose of GBH.

When the huge dose or doses she was given finally started to have their affect she died an awful death unnoticed and unaided by the selfish, self-interested, immature excuses for men, one of who pushed a dying or dead woman on the floor in disgust.

I think she was a lonely woman who went on that cruise hoping to find love and companionship with only one man. She may have thought it was one of the men in this group who no doubt was being as charming and nice to her as he could be . How could she know he was plotting with his mates to drug her and rape her with absolutely no regard for her safety when issuing lethal amounts of a dangerous drug.

But she was a woman having a drink in a bar with a man and his friends and so she must be of low moral character and they must be innocent. According to the jury anyway.

sharkfin:"I believe"

Yes, we know that, but we've already seen that you know nothing whatever about GHB or the context in which it is used, so your "belief", no matter how strong, is worth precisely zero in evaluating the case.

As has been pointed out, Mrs Brimble was no paragon. According to friends she had sought an aids test after one liaison and her doctor testified that he had prescribed her the "morning after" pill shortly before she went on the voyage. Let's not forhet she went on the voyage (on a notorious "shagger's ship") alone, leaving her husband and kids at home.

All of the evidence is that she participated willingly in a risky activity and paid the price. C'est la vie.

You still haven't answered my simple question: would you have ever gone off partying with a group of "loose cannons" like these men? Anyone care to try that one?

Speaking for myself, there's not a snowball's chance, I've known too many like them and I take personal responsibility for avoiding getting involved. Mrs Brimble should have done the same.

that's gold sharkfin.

I can play too,

I think she saw some guys who looked pretty cool, and thought she may be able to score some of the drugs they seemed to be using. She danced up close to some of them to get attention. One of the guys told her to piss off and seemed quite aggro, but there was a nice malleable guy she knew she could use to worm into the group.

The guys really didn't want to share, but she offered them the allure of sex, and they gave her a little bit so she would stop pestering and brining attention to their drug use.

When they failed to offer her any more, she ramped up the flirting, but resigned herself to the fact she would have to go back to their cabin to get any more.

When the second dose she was given finally started to have its affect she got quite horny, and she thought she'd even be happy to shag the ugly one if she couldn't have the cool one. After the ugly guy she shagged had passed out and she was still horny, she decided to jump on one of the cool guys and see if she could bring him to attention.

I think the guy she did shag was a lonely man, who wanted a woman who was interested in him and not just for his friend's drugs. He thought if only she had really wanted him, rather than his mate who had no interest. Sure she had sex with him, but he could tell he was just a last option, maybe even a sympathy fock. He really wanted to meet a nice girl on this cruise, and for a while he thought maybe he may get a girlfriend out of this, but all hope was lost when he spied on her trying to jump his comatose friend.

Did you like my story?

The truth will never be known, but the jury are left with more than our imaginations.

Benk: Thanks for those observations. I'd like to learn more.

Antiseptic: Sharkfin's "belief" has foundation:

<"Forensic scientist Doctor William Allender ... estimates the Brisbane woman consumed between seven and 18 grams of the drug, while a recreational user would usually take around two and a half grams.

He estimates Mrs Brimble consumed some of the drug while she was still in the disco earlier that night, and believes she died up to three and a half hours before medical assistance was called.

Earlier testimony said the medical team were called and arrived around 8am. This would put the time of death around 4:30am to 5:00am. This is the time frame witnesses said the cabin was full of naked bodies. One witness has said it was 5:00am when Wilhelm showed her a picture of Brimble on the floor naked.

The time frame is important, because it means that if she was involved in a sexual act around 3am to 5am, it was definately without her consent, as she would have been suffering from the overdose at that time.

Dr Allender... told the court that he believes her chances of surviving without medical assistance were virtually nil.">

First Aid Quiz:

So, if you're having sex with someone and they start frothing at the mouth and soiling themselves, do you at the moment of realization:

(a) Invite others including strangers to come in and look.
(b) Snap some pics with your digital camera and wander off to show your pics to a fellow (female) traveller.
(c) Call a conference with your friends to discuss options.
(d) Offer your genitals to a passerby.
(e) Get a mate or two to help you shower and dress the unconscious or deceased person.
(f) Call for medical assistance.

http://www.cruisebruise.com/Dianne_Brimble_Page_7.html
http://www.cruisebruise.com/Dianne_Brimble_Page_8.html

Let's say that there is no sex and it isn't Ms. Brimble but just another bloke cabin mate. You come across him in the same state of non-composure described - what action do you take (from those listed)?

Thank you PYNCHME for those links to more files on the Mrs. Brimble case, I didn’t only read page 7&8 I read it all.

ANTISEPTIC-<We’ve already seen that you know nothing whatever about GHB or the context in which it is used.>

If you and Houellebecq are such authorities on this drug how come Forensic Scientist Doctor William Allender concurs with my version of the timeframes of administration of GHB to Missus Brimble and also my assumption that she couldn’t have jumped on Leo Silvestri to rape him because her body would have been pretty much in shut down or near death by then.
Leo Silvestri who was standing in the corridor as the medical team worked on Mrs Brimble was heard to say we f---ked her , we kicked her out of bed and she died. On the record he claimed he was raped, as he slept by her.

Peter Hawthorne a security officer on the Pacific Sky saw an “extremely” intoxicated Mrs. Brimble(read overdosed on GHB)leaving the ships Pizzeria at 4.15am with Wilhelm, the medical team arrived at 8.00am and the forensic scientist said she had died up to three or three and a half hours earlier. That puts the time of death at about 5.00am or there abouts.
That means in her extremely intoxicated state at 4.15am until her time of death at 5.00am these men all had sex with her and probably didn’t even care that she had lapsed into unconsciousness because that’s the state they expected her to be in. They may have even continued raping her while she was dead. Witnesses said when they looked in the door of the cabin opened by Wilhelm at 5 or 5.30 there were naked bodies everywhere.

Let's look at this logically - you people are claiming this person had at least 3 recreational doses, yes? In other words, these guys, out of their limited supply (it's not cheap), gave her 3 days worth of their own supply? Generous fellows!

Not only that, but they managed to get it to her surreptitiously on 2 occasions, each time giving her 50% more than they'd consume themselves and she never noticed the remarkably salty taste in her drink? Try that at home - put a teaspoon of salt into your favourite tipple and see whether you notice. Tell us how you get on, won't you?

The fact is that there are all sorts of confounding factors in relation to GHB, including the fact that it uses the same dehydrogenase enzymes as alcohol, meaning that if she was already drunk, it would not be broken down and also including the fact that there is almost no data available on endogenous levels of GHB.

Did it not occur to you that the good doctor had a huge range of uncertainty in his estimate? His estimate range was between 7 and 18 grams, which is his way of saying he has no real idea. indeed, his upper bound is 6-30 times a recreational dose and would be almost instantly lethal.

No cigar children, go and learn some more and try harder next time.

The message is still "don't accept drugs from people you don't know and take some personal responsibility for your own safety and you'll be right".

pynchme:"she would have been suffering from the overdose at that time."

Nope, GHB has a very steep dose-response curve and she may well have been "fine", albeit p1ssed, which she had become willingly. On another day it might have worked out fine and all she'd have got was bruised genitalia. If she'd not died, she'd no doubt have had a recovery night and then got back into it the day after.

No one disputes the men involved were sleazebags. Would you have gone off with them, pynchme?

Hi Sharkfin,

I was glad to see someone (you) raise a hand in defence of this dear woman. She might have made some mistakes in life but we don't all have our less than stirling moments aired for public scrutiny while some assholes decide whether our lives have value. It's clear that people who knew her best - her ex and current partner; children and other family regarded her extremely highly and loved her dearly.

Antiseptic:

Why shouldn't she agree to have alcohol, even drugs or sex with someone ? You sound like one of those tut-tutting dowagers who you always hold in contempt.

Partying, drinking and drugging is something you ( and your mini-u Houellebecq) do isn't it. In fact you both skite about doing these things regularly - being in the know and all. Why is her life of less worth for doing it when you do it yourself. Hypocrites.

I think I recall you once saying that if a woman isn't plied with alcohol nothing (ie sex) is gonna happen. I take it sex with unconscious people your usual or preferred experience.

I'm sure that these fellows were a picture of charm. Was she to know that they were travelling in a pack in some sort of group hunting expedition ?

You're always saying (and mini-u has said similar) that women shouldn't assume that every man is a rapist or of bad character. You assure us that the majority of men are decent and caring. Now you're going to blame her for sharing a belief in your propaganda.

So which is it:

1. Women should assume that every man they meet is a predator and decline one night stands.

2. Women should assume every man they meet is a decent bloke and predators (even 8 in a bunch) are a rarity; and accept one night stands.

3. Women AND MEN should keep their pants up until they get to know each other in the light of day and preferably in a sober state.

Antiseptic: I don't see anything logical in people, especially chronic pot smoking poly drug using accountants without medical degrees who have a vested interest in promoting exploitative behaviours, purporting to have more knowledge on medical topics than a medical practitioner. Although they too make mistakes; I think Dr. Whatshisname is more qualified than you to determine and present toxicological and other findings.

According to Thomas, Bonner and Gascoigne (1997) BMJ 1997;314:35 (4 January), illegally manufactured {gamma}-hydroxybutyrate producing 40 ml (3-9 doses) may contain a dose as small as 3 g or one as potentially toxic as 20 g.

Btw: (1) More than one of them was carrying drugs and offering them about. (2) During and after the fatal interlude with Ms. Brimble, a bottle of coloured liquid was seen in the cabin.

Also FYI - GHB produces effects within 15 mins.

Antiseptic-<she never noticed the remarkably salty taste in her drink>

That makes me wonder again about something that came to my mind last night about her being seen leaving the ships pizza place with Wilhelm by a security guard; extremely intoxicated and staggering .
I once read about a case of a man raping women by putting this in their food. It occurred to me that pizza would be the perfect food to sprinkle this over because pizza can be quite salty or spicy.
The men may have been getting desperate because Mrs Brimble was still not responding stupidly enough to be manipulated into going somewhere she didn’t want to.

<the guys out of their limited supply (it’s not cheap ) gave her 3days worth of their own supply>

The files I was reading on this say that Wilhelm and at least one of the others ran a club in Sydney where they supplied drugs quite liberally to people, so obviously they had access to a pretty constant supply of this stuff. The club was eventually shut down by the police. Also one of the other men had a criminal history with one trial being for rape, of which he was acquitted.

It made me wonder if whilst they were running this club, having this stuff on the premises they haven’t done this to some woman before and she hasn’t pressed charges because she can’t remember the event or just doesn’t want to go through a trial or media circus where her name is besmirched like Mrs Brimble.

pynchme:"a vested interest in promoting exploitative behaviours, "

Oh yes, do enlighten us, mon't you dear? What's the "vested interest"? BTW, I'm not an accountant, wash your mouth out.

I couldn't be bothered looking at your links, did the doctor happen to mention what the actual concentration of the GHB in her system was?

pynchme:"Why shouldn't she agree to have alcohol, even drugs or sex with someone ? "

No reason at all, it's her decision to make and the consequences are her own problem. Why should I get teary-eyed when that decision turned out badly? I know you like the idea that women have total autonomy and no responsibility at all, but most normal people are capable of both assessing risk and taking steps to reduce it if it's too high. She failed at that.

pynchme:"GHB produces effects within 15 mins"

Nope, the somatic effects are remarkably variable in both their nature and their timeframe. Some of that is dose-dependent, but there's also a large idiosyncratic component related to the metabolism of the stuff, which is why the good doctor's estimate was so imprecise. All he could really say was "she'd had it, her mode of death is typical of intoxication with it, she'd had to have had at least [this amount] to get that way and it's unlikely she could have had more than [this amount]".

As a "professional" (LMAO) I'd have thought you'd have been able to work that out for yourself...

sharkfin:"pizza"

Well, I don't know about you, but I reckon I'd notice if someone poured liquid all over my pizza...

sharkfin:"The files I was reading"

I've not seen that information, how about a link?

Antiseptic-the files that I read are the ones you couldn't be bothered reading that Pynchme posted previously.

<I'd reckon I'd notice if someone poured liquid all over my pizza>

Not if you went to the Pizza salad bar or the toilet. Pizza restuarants do have salad bars with dessert and drinks because I have dined at them on quite a few occasions.

'Partying, drinking and drugging is something you ( and your mini-u Houellebecq) do isn't it. In fact you both skite about doing these things regularly - being in the know and all. Why is her life of less worth for doing it when you do it yourself. Hypocrites.'

Nobody is giving her life less value. As I said earlier, if I overdosed I wouldn't be blaming my dealer, I'd blame myself for my own stupidity. That I have been around this scene means I have a better idea of what can go on than your usual 'my daughter would never take drugs' appeal you hear by your average mother on the news. Every parent always says that, and I laugh every time. It's called self delusion.

I maintain, if she were a guy in exactly the same situation, people would assume the responsibility lies with him taking the drug.

What the guys did was careless, callous, whatever you like, but they're not murderers unless they spiked her drink, which I don't happen to believe.

You think everything's about woman-hatred, but have you seen guys after messy bucks nights taking pictures and laughing about guys who are very worse for wear. When you've seen people in these states so many times, you get blaze and expect they'll come right. They generally do. And there isn't ever much concern for the random guy who nobody really knows who joins the party in the hope of some free drugs.

People who are drug-f8cked do stupid things, and people look out for themselves and their own health when on drugs, and it's only the really good friend you can rely on and most times not even that as they're in their own state. That's the culture of it. Everyone knows and expects that the risks and responsibilities are their own to deal with.

Houellebecq-<if I overdosed I wouldn’t be blaming my dealer . I’d blame my own stupidity>

And if you were raped during the time you were overdosing or unconscious then you would be happy to let the men that did it go free because you were putting yourself at risk. They bear no responsibility at all and should be found innocent by a jury.

Don’t forget this took place in a very short space of time. Mrs. Brimble was seen with Wilhelm leaving the Pizzeria at 4.15am extremely intoxicated and staggering by the security guard. The medical forensic examiner said she died somewhere between 4.30am and 5.00a.m.
At 5.30am when Wilhelm opened the door a witness saw naked bodies all over the room. Some of these men denied having sex with Mrs. Brimble at all. Why were there so many naked men in the room at that time then?

At 4.15am Mrs Brimble was in NO STATE TO CONSENT rationally to anything. At somewhere between 4.30am and 5.00am she was already dead. At 5.30am the room was full of naked men.

I say again she probably died during the sex and these idiots were raping a dead body.
The time frames prove that.

'The time frames prove that.'

Do they indeed. Proof huh? That's just your story. If it's all so simple, why did the jury not convict. They had much more evidence than you.

Oh that's right, it's all a big conspiracy. Why don't we just do away with trials and juries and just ask you instead.

Houellebecq-<That's just your story. Why did the jury not convict. They had much more time and evidence than you. Oh that's right it's all a conspiracy why don't we do away with juries and just ask you.>

I was told that the jury actually couldn't agree on this and they are considering whether to have a retrial or not.

My story is based on eye witness accounts and the findings of a forensic medical examiner, what's yours based on?

As I said in my earlier post, I watched a man being interviewed on T.V one night who had been tried 3 times for rape and found not guilty by 3 juries because they did not know of his other rape trials because of the law that this cannot be revealed in a rape case.
Although the defence lawyer is allowed to tear the victim apart with information about her past sexual history which may be fairly normal but sounds sordid when harped upon and headlined in the media.

Ask any of the women's rape crisis centres how often there is a miscarriage of justice in these cases I think I've read that the number is quite high.

Also one of the men in the Mrs Brimble's persons of interest, had gone to trial before for rape and been found not guilty. Now here he is in another highly suspicious gang rape.

If for a moment we consider your version of events that Mrs Brimble was a recreational drug user. How come she has never overdosed and died on all those other occasions, only this time when gang sex was involved

So your thesis is that all trials should not be based on their own merits, but based on the history and trials (not even convictions) of the accused.

I like your 'when there's smoke there's fire' attitude. Maybe you should add 'guilty until proven innocent' and put the burden of proof on the accused while you're at it.

'My story is based on eye witness accounts and the findings of a forensic medical examiner, what's yours based on? '

That's exactly right. Your *story*. I don't have a story, I merely suggested an alternative version of events that was equally plausible. Not plausible in your mind of course, as any woman who has group sex is raped and women only take drugs if tricked by a man in your world.

I can accept I wasn't there and have no idea what *really* happened, but of course you 'know' for sure to this level of detail don't you. You were even telling us about her motives and such and what she wanted out of the cruise. 'Looking for love and companionship'. You know her so intimately! Come on! When one of the guys says something that fits in with your story they're telling the truth, but when they say something inconvenient, well, they're just a lying rapist and cant be believed. Anyone can cherry-pick facts from second hand reports and add emotive spin.

As with the recent revelations in the Greg Bird case, where his 'victim' has recently admitted being the aggressor, all of these events are under the category of speculation. Your average irate feminist will always only be able to see the woman as a victim and the man as an abuser. Life is generally more complex than that.

Even in the face of his partners sworn testimony to this being the case, I'm sure you now believe that's just a cover up huh? Which is my point all along. You believe what you *want* to believe and that's the spin you will put on it. I'm glad the legal system isn't based around your prejudices.

Houellebecq, <"I'm glad the legal system isn't based around your prejudices.">

- but you're quite ok with the legal system being based on yours aren't you.

Btw: sharkfin didn't say any trial should be "...based on the history and trials (not even convictions) of the accused.". Your dramatic confabulation = red herring.

- but why shouldn't the history of the accused be taken into account?
What's fair and ok about the defence being able to bring the victim's prior history into consideration while the accused's history isn't?

As to the current case: there are facts yet to be made known like the whys and wherefores of shaving Ms. Brimble's public hair or the blood in the cabin.

I would like to know - maybe someone with legal expertise can explain - why some of the comments made to other passengers are not being acted upon (or are they?). Like one of the fellows skiting that she died during a certain sex act, indicating that he at least knew she had died but still hadn't summoned help. Whether or not it was a fellow she had been seen with or agreed to have sex with is another matter too.

Btw: I appreciated your frank description of the drug scene etc. and safety issues. Thank you for that. Could you just educate me a bit further:

1. If someone is so out of it that they mightn't be able to summon help even for a friend in distress; is that because they are *unaware* that the person is in distress or because they are *unable to dial* a phone or something?

2. Is it possible for someone in such a drugged state that they are unaware that someone needs help or they are unable to dial a phone - to still have an erection, fumble through a sex act and take pics ?

3. Lastly, a personal question for you. If you came across an attractive, naked, unconscious or semi conscious woman - would you jump aboard or walk away ? Please explain your decision.

Pynchme, you're flogging the deadest of horses. The fact that these men were of the type they were stood out like the proverbial leg-humping Pomeranian's appendage. She chose to go with them and predictably there were bad consequences. Had she chosen differently, things would have worked out differently.

We all have responsibility for the choices we make. The men involved have already paid a heavy price and will no doubt have a lot more to go through yet. That's what happens when lots of irresponsible people get together: tragic accidents occur.

If one of the men had died and she had lived, would you be as hot under the collar, or would you regard it as paying the price for excess?

Still waiting on an answer to this one, pynchme, sharkfin, et al:

"If one of the men had died and she had lived, would you be as hot under the collar, or would you regard it as paying the price for excess?"

Take your time...

Well neither you nor mini-u has answered my questions either have you.

As for your usual red herring technique; if anyone dies using drugs it's an unnecessary thing and a sad waste; if the person dies while surrounded by fellow party goers, it's painful to think that people could be so lost to conscious awareness that they wouldn't even notice someone distressed or dying in their midst. If the fellow's body had been defiled; had pics taken and flashed around and he died because, although people were aware he was unconscious, they saw it as an opportunity for them rather than an occasion to summon aid - I would be outraged as well as sad.

I suppose it's inconceivable to you that a person can care and feel compassion towards the opposite sex; being devoid of such feelings yourself, but it's cause for sadness when anyone in a vulnerable state is subject to callousness and depredation by others.

pynchme:"neither you nor mini-u has answered my questions either have you."

That would be because your questions are non sequiturs, no one is disputing the the men behaved badly, so your questions are irrelevant. On the other hand, my own question goes directly to your motivations and I think your response is very telling. Basically, if one of the blokes had died, you'd say, as I am saying about Brimble (and would say about the hypothetical dead man), "so sad, too bad, that's what you get for being stupid". The difference is, you can't bring yourself to accept that a woman has the same capacity for responsibility as a man, so you try to find excuses for Brimble.

You just don't think much of women at all, do you?

I wonder how you derived that rubbish comment from my post, which said:

"As for your usual red herring technique; if anyone dies using drugs it's an unnecessary thing and a sad waste; if the person dies while surrounded by fellow party goers, it's painful to think that people could be so lost to conscious awareness that they wouldn't even notice someone distressed or dying in their midst. If the fellow's body had been defiled; had pics taken and flashed around and he died because, although people were aware he was unconscious, they saw it as an opportunity for them rather than an occasion to summon aid - I would be outraged as well as sad.

I suppose it's inconceivable to you that a person can care and feel compassion towards the opposite sex; being devoid of such feelings yourself, but it's cause for sadness when anyone in a vulnerable state is subject to callousness and depredation by others.
Posted by Pynchme, Thursday, 26 November 2009 9:14:49 AM"

Antiseptic

You seem to spend alot of your time thinking about Psychme as you do your one-handed typing.

Now benk - you nearly instigated a coffee/keyboard disaster just now!

Was "Psychme" a Freudian slip or a clever parody of Pynchme's handle?

Antiseptic,
MRS. BRIMBLE to you. (not Brimble)

<if one of the men had died and she had lived would you have been as hot under the collar or would you regard it as paying the price for excess.>

If there had been 8 naked homosexual men in the room and they possessed a stupefying date rape drug and the dead man was heterosexual then yes, I would be very outraged.
As I was by two such high profile rapes committed in my area in the past few years, the first a young man employed at a local hotel, just doing his job when he was attacked and forced into a car in the hotel carpark by some men, sexually assaulted and then later dumped with awful injuries. I was horrified by it. There was also a more recent one in a small town where a man was grabbed off the street , sexually assaulted and later let go in similar circumstances. I certainly didn’t blame him for being alone on the street at night.(as I’m sure you would if it had been a woman, what was that you said about being responsible for your own risky behavior?) All I felt was anger at the perpetrators.

<the fact that these men were the type they were stood out>

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The fact is Mrs. Brimble didn’t know anything about their stupid antics you only know now because of all the media reports about their behavior and Wilhelm never ponced up and down the corridor naked showing pictures of poor Mrs. Brimble until after she was dead so how could she know about his behaviour. I’ll bet him and his friends baited their trap very well and were very nice to Mrs. Brimble. How could she know.

Houellebecq<I don’t have a story I merely suggested an alternative version of events that was equally
Plausible>
An alternative version of events eh? Not a story. Same horse different name.

O.K. do you have any witness accounts other than that of the accused to back up your “ alternative version of events.”

<As with the revelations in the Greg Bird case, where his victim recently admitted being the aggressor. I’m sure you now believe that’s just a cover up.>
No, I don’t actually, I believe she did do it. We’ve even had women glassing other women on a few occasions up here in North Queensland lately , there is such concern about it that they announced that a few of the local pubs have changed over to plastic glasses.

<Any woman who has group sex is raped and women only take drugs if tricked by a man in your world>

And which diety died and made you and Antiseptic world authorities on human nature. I can assure you I have absolutely no illusions about human nature. I’m probably a lot more cynical than most people.

Was it you or Antiseptic who said in a previous post that the places he hangs out women regularly prostitute themselves with men because they want drugs. I don’t doubt that for a minute.
I would suggest though that the bigger majority of women in society don’t do this, and if you want to pick up your standards a bit and be where women are more classy then you should change your own frequenting of these sleazy establishments and go somewhere where the women and the people in general are a cut above. Sadly, maybe you and Antiseptic can’t do this because you have no class of your own. Like attracts like they say.

Benk: <"Antiseptic

You seem to spend alot of your time thinking about Psychme as you do your one-handed typing.">

It's the F word that gets him all excited Benk :)

Mss Funnell in another of her feminist rants likes to conflate the unproven behaviour of men (alleged sexual offences often proved to be false) with disrespect for women described by her as misogynist and sexist attitudes. There is nothing illegal about the latter. She argues this way so that “expert feminists” can gain entry to male dominated organisations and impose their smug self-awarded moral authority on the culture on the blokey organisations and gain a few bucks in the process. That’s the business that Ms Funnell, who as a long time champion peddler of rape myths, is involved in from my understanding. So her mob has infiltrated the NRL…now it looks like they want to infiltrate the male colleges.