Davidf
Pretty much how I see it.

PeterHume

From what I've read, my daughter and others who have lived there, what davidf has said is confirmed. The prejudice both institutionalized and where not, the authorities tend to be biased in that they simple ignore or side with the Israelis.

Mind you some the 'Israeli Arabs'(sic) don't help their cause either.

It would appear that Israel is divided into four mindset groups.
The 'Settlers'/'Orthodox' Jews (many of whom are fundamentalist), the Secular Israeli, the comparatively small Arab (no vote, no secure land tenure), and the non Orthodox Jews.

The problem is that the vote is polarized and power depends on the extreme fundamentalist group. As a consequence neither major can afford to discount/ignore the fundy crazies if they hope to govern.

As I currently understand it there are a lot of Palestinians who had legal title to property and land in Israel but they are prevented from ever returning. Others have lived in the areas or in specific houses from before the creation of Israel but don't have a title. Thus they are 'legally?' thrown out the land is then given/bought by settlers who then claim *they* own the land (poison tree concept?).

No Israeli govt dares to simply honour titles/occupancy as would take place in England, US, Aust. The internal conflict over ownership would be enormous.

Apparently there is a significant movement in Israel that want Israel to go secular but the same obstacles prevail. The ideal situation would be two secular states. Palestine would need to be connected and a coastal deep water port.
Given that it would be morally untenable for a third party to force secular Governments on either. Two separate states is the next best option

David f. wrote:

"Israel cannot be both Jewish and democratic. I once thought it could but think so no longer and choose democracy."

Did you know that humans are able to fly unaided - no engine or wings are required!?
(Just jump off the 50th floor - I admit that there is still some issue with landing, but hopefully this too will be solved soon)

A democratic one-state solution has only 2 obstacles:

1. Jews
2. Muslims

Other than that all is fine.
Have a nice day!

'... in the next few weeks the Palestinian Authority is planning to call for Palestinian statehood through a UN resolution'

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/11/14/exclusivethe-secret-palestinian-plan/?test=latestnews

Wouldn't this cause a real need for a very public rethink. We'd soon see the limit of US charity to Israel.

Yuyutsu wrote: "A democratic one-state solution has only 2 obstacles:

1. Jews
2. Muslims"

I am a Jew and am not the only one with my opinion. The United States Congress now has a Muslim member from a mainly non-Muslim electorate which is apparently satisfied with his democratic attributes. There have many Jews elected to the Congress.

At one time no Christians were in democratic countries. Now many of them are. I see no reason that Jews and Muslims in the Middle East cannot accept non-discriminatory democracy the way Christians, Jews and Muslims have in the democratic countries.

David,

Perhaps I did not make it clear enough: What I meant by "Jews" and "Muslims" are REAL Jews and REAL muslims.

I understand that you consider yourself a Jew, but according to views you expressed here, I would consider you in fact as a Jew-lite (not my own construct - it was coined by Gideon Levy of Haaretz).

For a real Jew, Judaism is the one ultimate reason for living and for dying; A real Jew would do everything whatsoever in their power to fulfil the 613 commandments and their derivatives; A real Jew would long for the Messiah to arrive any moment and will fight with teeth and nails for each milimeter of the promised holy-land in order to hasten his coming; a real Jew would not embrace democracy, because the only rule he recognizes is the rule of G-d. I don't know about America, but here a real Jew could not sit in parliament because it violates the sabbath and because it commences each session with the "Our Father" Christian prayer. Unlike Israel, real Jews in Australia are very few.

Similarly, a real Muslim would never forsake the commandment of Jihad and would constantly fight to his last breath, terror included, to have the whole world acknowledge the prophet and obey his commandments.

Jew-lites and Muslim-lites can live in peace and harmony, no doubt, but in the middle-east there is a large (up to 30% on each side) minority of the *real* variety that would not allow the others to live their lives in peace. Moreover, their relative numbers are increasing because they procreate well above the average, also because sane Jews and Muslims tend to despair and emmigrate if they can.

---

Keith: "We'd soon see the limit of US charity to Israel."

At times, real charity is expressed by being tough and harsh towards your loved ones. The USA will do a huge favour for Israel if they support Palestinian statehood. I believe that even Netaniahu and most of his Likud party, while expressing the obligatory protest outwardly will covertly be glad for that happening.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I really think you have a lot of hide to tell me I am not a real Jew because I am not a fanatic. I know that the ultra-orthodox do not consider me a real Jew. Who the hell are they, who the hell are you and who the hell is Gideon Levy to make the distinction. I know fundamentalist Christians consider themselves the only real Christians. Who the hell are they?

Jews with my beliefs have fought and died for Israel. Many what you call 'real' Jews suck on the government's tit for subsidies and avoid serving in the army.

I am not constipated. I have no problem spelling God rather than G-d. I can move my vowels.