>>For very good reasons RobP. The refugee programme is about being humanitarian, that is its purpose. We do have a separate business migration programme, where business criteria apply. You are confusing the two.<<

Not at all, Yabby. The point I'm making is that refugees show initiative. In that sense they are like business is. They don't want to get into business per se - at least not yet - but to make a better life for themselves. This quality is extolled as a virtue in business, but thought badly of when people use it to try to extricate themselves from a bad spot. They are then portrayed as jumping the queue.

Anyway, this thread is coming to a close for me. We seem to be doing a lot of thrashing around but not really getting anywhere. I guess the cards will fall wherever they may on this issue.

*Agree 100%, but it is not just diplomacy.*

So call it politics rstuart. Imagine if the Liberals had done it.
I would have heard the howling from the oppositioin, all the
way to WA! That is exactly why its time for a bipartisan
solution, to a problem that simply won't go away for any party
in Govt, as Kevie is learning the hard way.

*I strongly doubt Australian voters would stomach unconditionally sending people home if some were cut up and thrown in a well on a regular basis.*

Well yup, they pulled your emotional strings on that one, as
politicians do. I put it to you that far more backpackers have
been murdered in Australia, then returned asylum seekers thrown
down any wells. So should all those backpackers avoid Australia
now? The debate needs to be realistic, which the well incident was
not. Most Afghans simply go to Pakistan, if they really need
asylum. Mostly fit young males with money, seem to come here.

*The reality is there will always be people arriving who we won't turn away*

So why don't they turn up in Singapore or Japan for instance?

*If you need safe haven while we do that we provide off-shore refugee camps*

Yup sure. Not only Australia, but all countries could do more to
improve conditions and establish refugee camps in various parts
of the world. Some third world countries would actually welcome
that as an economic stimulant and it could be done far cheaper then
we can do it in Aus, with free i-pods and all the rest of the
luxuries that we have provided for asylum seekers.

No frigging wonder they stream here!

rstuart,
You really are unimformed about this issue. You said "So we sign a convention that allows them to come, then we pass laws that say they can't come, then if they are true refugees ignore the laws. Just wonderful".

Once again I say the refugee convention makws a point of 'asylum seekers' having to obey a countries laws. Australian law is that it is illegal, for a non-citizen, to enter Australia without a valid visa. That is the sole reason we can hold the illegals in detention.
Everyone but you knows this

Lets list a few more 'facts' that you apparently are unaware of.

a. The illegals enter Malaysia by air
b. They lie on visa application to do so
c. They engage people smugglers to get to Indonesia
d. They enter Indonesia illegally
e. They engage people smugglers to get them to Aus waters.
f. They enter Australia illegally

These FACTS which have been known for years. Even the most ardent 'refugee advocate' does not dispute these facts. That you call these facts 'assertions' and want evidence shows just how ignorant of the subject you are. I am not going to waste time on the obvious that is akin to 'water runs downhill', if you dispute them you can research.

Oh, I do assert a couple of things, based on logic.
1. The illegals do not come the cheaper, quicker and safer legal way because they know they are not refugees.
2. They destroy their identities to prevent being sent back home.

You claim some outragous behaviour by our border security personel, show me where that happened, or is that your lie.

You also claim I stated the illegals were unlikely to get a visa. Another lie, I said there is no reason why they could not get a visa, given that we issue thousands annually to their fellow countrymen.

You also said "To me all this daemonising of refugees - claiming they are all cheats, liars only worth of being left in the ocean to drown is not just obnoxious". Nobody has ever said that, You lie!

Some of the commentators to this topic think they can debate when they can't even argue. Repetitive one-upmanship is tedious. It's not all about who has the last word, or the biggest post.

native,
Yes, I agree and I am one who finds it necessary to repeat things because the 'refugee advocates' try to twist known facts to make out that the illegals are victims, when in fact they are shysters who use every shonky means to acheive what they want. It never seems to occur to many that the illegals create the demand for people smugglers. I feel sorry for the poor fishermen that are lured by big money offered to convey the illegals to Aus and end up being in jail and losing their boat.

In this thread, rstuart trys to twist the fact that it is illegal to enter Aus without a valid visa. Earlier he asked rpg to verify that the illegals flew into Malaysia, which has been known and accepted as fact for, at least, 10 years. Not to mention the illegals destroying their docs and sabotaging boats.

There is this continuing effort to portray the illegals as victims and those of us ,who can see through that, find it sometimes necessary to repeat facts until the advocates abandon that part of argument.

It is all a pity as far more deserving refugees are sitting in camps waiting to be placed, while the gate crashers get preference. Not fair!

Banjo: << I am one who finds it necessary to repeat things >>

We've noticed, Banjo. Unfortunately for you and the other haters, however, the repetititon of a lie doesn't make it any truer.

<< ...find it sometimes necessary to repeat [hateful lies, suppositions and distortions] until the advocates abandon that part of argument >>

No, Banjo. It's more that we humane and compassionate types have better things to do with our time and energy than waste them on providing a soapbox for haters like you.