*You could say it’s a case of “Who dares wins”. In other contexts, like in business, that’s seen as a very desirable quality. Why not with migrants?*

For very good reasons RobP. The refugee programme is about being
humanitarian, that is its purpose. We do have a separate business
migration programme, where business criteria apply. You are
confusing the two.

*But they can only occur in a perfect world.*

The world will never be perfect, but silly me did think we were
at least working towards a better world, improving on the present.

*The question is, if you tighten up the migration system now, what effect will that have on genuine asylum seekers?*

Overall, you'll land up with more genuine refugees, at far less
expense to them, as well as to the Govt of Australia. No more
flawed and confusing signals, as we have now, so less confused
people. No more people smugglers either.

*You could just as much blame the former Government for this sorrow*

I do indeed blame both Govts, for rather then find a realistic
and bipartisan solution, its been a political football for years.
The present Govt kicked that political football as hard as they
could for years, now its come to bite them in the arse.

So its time for a bipartisan and practical solution, to end the
dilemma once and for all.

Let's consider a new approach to the issue of providing Australian refuge to those who are the most vulnerable? Now there are a great many orphaned babies in desperate need a loving home who would thrive if fostered in Australia. Let these little innocents be the only immigration intake and, with the government and community backing them, they will be the productive and loyal citizens needed for a sustainable future.

Yabby: "For reasons of diplomacy, Australian politicians won't withdraw from the Convention, yet fight off boats with sticks. So they are guilty of creating the problems we now have."

Agree 100%, but it is not just diplomacy. I strongly doubt Australian voters would stomach unconditionally sending people home if some were cut up and thrown in a well on a regular basis.

To me all this daemonising of refugees - claiming they are all cheats, liars only worth of being left in the ocean to drown is not just obnoxious. Since it ain't going to happen (for the reasons you gave) it is also utterly ineffectual. This is what I meant when I said in another thread all the people saying that are pussy footing around. (Take note Banjo: you're being a pussy.)

The reality is there will always be people arriving who we won't turn away, regardless of how they get here, or what rules they broke to do it. Howard's words "we will decide who comes into this country and the circumstances under which they arrive" set up some unrealistic expectations. Howard himself could live up to them, as his government ultimately gave residency to all genuine boat refugees. Rudd doesn't have the guts to say "this is all lie" and so is perpetuating it. It is costing him dearly.

Yabby: "It needs an agreement which lets Govts close loopholes, as they arise, to avoid abuse of the system, as occurs now"

Closing loopholes - we more can we do? We and just about every other signatory to the convention ignore article 26 ("refugees may roam around") and set up refugee camps. We take up to 2 years to check out their stories, and send the frauds back home.

If you want to dissuade them, how about this: all Aussie asylum applications take a minimum of 2 years to process. If you need safe haven while we do that we provide off-shore refugee camps. Beware we only accept bonda fide refugees in our camps, we will check out your story and will send you home if conditions change.

rstuart
"To me all this daemonising of refugees - claiming they are all cheats, liars only worth of being left in the ocean to drown is not just obnoxious"

True of both sides, Each country has a different set of pushes. I am far more sympathetic to the plight of Afghans than to Sri Lankans. Maybe because I believe 100% that the Sri Lankan crisis is more one of propoganda readily accepted by the west that make "allegations " nothing more, due to geopolitical reasons. So I find it obnoxious that some claims are made against Indonesia being a hell hole and Sri Lanka being gencoidal. I see no difference in generalisations. Nobody has moral highground.

TheMissus: "I am far more sympathetic to the plight of Afghans than to Sri Lankans."

Your (and my, or anybody else's) sympathies don't come into it. The UNHCR has a definition of a refugee. We have bureaucrats who do their damnedest to check the people coming in match the definition, and if they aren't send them home. This is a good thing. If you were a refugee and say Saudi Arabia was a signatory, I'd hate for you to be rejected just because the Saudi's have no sympathy for women who don't wear a hijab.

I have my quibbles with the UNHCR definition, but it seems to be one most countries in the world can accept and that trumps my quibbles as far as I am concerned.

TheMissus: "So I find it obnoxious that some claims are made against Indonesia being a hell hole"

Assuming the reports of refugees being beaten because they were trying to leave camps whose water supply had human faeces in it are true, I'd say there was calling them a hell hole wasn't stretching things much. Certainly it is true that refugees were shot when trying to leave. The truth can be obnoxious I guess. But if that truth helps explain why people might be desperate to leave, I think it needs telling.

TheMissus: "and Sri Lanka being gencoidal."

I thought you were exaggerating, but I see Bronwyn did use the word genocide. I agree it was the wrong word. I also agree the LTTE were just plain atrocious.

However you do seem to reluctant the Sri Lanka government were at least a wee bit naughty at times. For example, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_Civil_War

- UN spokesman in Colombo, Gordon Weiss, said more than 100 children died during the "large-scale killing of civilians" and described the situation in northern Sri Lanka as a "bloodbath"

- US President Barack Obama urged Sri Lanka to stop "indiscriminate shelling" of civilians

Going back further we have this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_attributed_to_the_Sri_Lankan_military

If I were a Tamil living amongst LTTE at the end, I would be running for my life too.

In response to RS :

---“Agree 100%, but it is not just diplomacy”
Agree too, with the politicians it’s probably about 50% diplomacy; it’s wise not to offend those who you have aspirations of seeking employment with after domestic politics.But the other 150% is just plain idiocy . They are too spineless to make a stand so they bribe Indonesia or Malaysia to do it for them.

---“To me all this daemonising of refugees - claiming they are all cheats, liars”
Now, surely they have largely demonised themselves.
Hijacking vessels – of which we have solid evidence of at least two: The Oceanic Viking & The Tampa ( though there are statements by some of the illegals that indicate that at least some of the boats from Sri Lanka were also stolen) is hardly something that would enhance ones reputation.Use of bribery to secure passage or further ones interests, is again usually seen as not conducive to a positive reputation.

And as for:
- --“you should wait for the department of immigration to do their investigation and make a determination”
You may as well be waiting for godot!
We should all know by now that any determination that any OZ govt body will make, on such an issue, will be suitably neutered and filtered so as not to find anything conclusive lest it offend or vilify the illegals and their advocates’.

---“I strongly doubt Australian voters would stomach unconditionally sending people home if some were cut up and thrown in a well on a regular basis.”
Well, you’re certainly doing your utmost to peddle the urban myth—talking it up at every opportunity.

Though I suspect, if we were to visit that legendary well, all we’d find would be a big fat frog ( species unknown, but probably a cane toad) looking up the narrow aperture and croaking out his repetitive & boring manta –and, he’d be wearing green tights with the initial RS brazened across the chest ala superman.