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The Forum > Article Comments > Myths, stereotypes and pedophiles > Comments

Myths, stereotypes and pedophiles : Comments

By Nina Funnell, published 22/9/2009

The reality is that in 75 per cent of child abuse cases the abuser is known to the child.

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Thank you for a measured article, Nina.

It seems that the ways sexual advances are made are changing. You suggested we don't demonise the internet, but the very nature of the -er- communication makes it anonymous. I asked a good friend's daughter, in her room seemingly permanently internet chatting and texting ($300 per month in texts, much to the parental despair) why she didn't just go and meet them. She herself admitted that the vast bulk of texts, tweets and chats happened between mates at school.

Her response - 'because I can't say to them what I can say online.' So what is it that you say online?

Anonymity paves the way for explicit chats, images, threats, coercion and bullying. You don't have to front up to the real time, real world embarrassment and hurt you might cause. You don't have to suffer the consequences from someone you have offended.

There are no consequences.

Real time real world interaction is dying and the void is being filled by stuff that just isn't real, an electronic snowstorm of utter drivel. Just browse 'Twitter' occasionally.

Remember how much easier it was to lie to your parents on the phone than face to face? Same logic, different technology, far greater consequences because children are 'sexualised' (awful word but it will do) at a far younger age.

Enter the predators - known and unknown to the child.
Posted by Baxter Sin, Tuesday, 22 September 2009 12:35:28 PM
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Cripes Graham is this a new paedophile chat line? "I asked a good friend's daughter, in her room". Please.
Regards
Blair
Posted by blairbar, Tuesday, 22 September 2009 2:37:20 PM
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Nina

I would classify your article as one written from the view of innocence. I hope so.

The child enslaved as a sexual object by a family member or the myriad of other classifications describing the sexually perverted exploiting the vulnerability of children, is not in the same classification as the child "suaved" into early sexual encounters on the internet.

The difference is choices.
Posted by diver dan, Tuesday, 22 September 2009 3:10:20 PM
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The standard between the articles section from 'social commentators' and PHD students et al and the General section is narrowing by the day.

The article section might one day be just as good as the General section.

I think Graham should encourage some of the General section posters to submit an article. One wonders what qualifies one to be a 'social commentator' and of the general standard of PHD 'research' after reading some of this stuff.

Anecdotal evidence and master of the bleeding obvious does not an interesting article make.
Posted by Houellebecq, Tuesday, 22 September 2009 4:13:26 PM
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$ 300 / month you have gotta be jokin. Any parent that is footing the bill for that needs looking into. You are setting this kid up for a life of misery. What is the kids total spend for the month. You get accustomed to a lifestyle you know. Remember what the dole pays.
Parents out of control i call it. They will pay any cost to get the kids out of their hair. Well done.
Posted by Desmond, Tuesday, 22 September 2009 8:20:47 PM
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I find the inclusion of unwanted sexual advances by peers into discussion of sexual assault offputting.

There may be circumstances where it is part of an assault or where there are clear reasons why it's not Ok but just being unwelcome does not make it a crime.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 22 September 2009 8:46:48 PM
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R0bert:"I find the inclusion of unwanted sexual advances by peers into discussion of sexual assault offputting."

It's all part of the broadening of definitions that is essential if the victim sector is to grow its business.

Nina is a member of the management committee of the NSW Rape Crisis Centre, which is currently desperately trying to broaden its own "user base" by pushing the concept of "vicarious trauma", since the number of victims of actual rapes is pretty small and makes it hard for them to justify the $1,000,000 or so it gets in Govt grants to pay a stack of feminist women to do very little. Extending the definition of sexual assault to include unwanted advances is just the next logical step in making the gravy train a more comfortable ride.

It's a version of the Trotskyite "continuous revolution" model, in which the "revolution" (in this case, the "funding") becomes an end in itself, while the people in whose name it is being conducted are forgotten.

Remember Big Brother and the "continuing crisis" of "the war" everyone was carefully informed about and which justified incredible privations for the populace (but not the elites)? Every good Revolution needs a class enemy and Nina and her feminist fellows have found a doozy - the entire male gender (excpt the "good ones" of course...)

I suspect Nina is not a fundamentally dishonest person, she's just young and eager to get on the gravy train. As long as we recognise that and treat her output accordingly, no harm is done. If we make the mistake of uncritically accepting what she writes, we allow ourselves to be lead down a very twisted garden path indeed.
Posted by Antiseptic, Wednesday, 23 September 2009 7:42:58 AM
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In truth, it would be almost impossible to stop all incidences of child sexual abuse in family situations - usually family member, close family friend, step-parent.

These events happen behind closed doors and unless the child speaks to someone or another family member happens to witness the event or notice anomalies in behaviour or physical signs of abuse, what hope is there?

Mandatory reporting via teachers, doctors, nurses, child carers etc is helpful and alerts authorities to suspected abuse but it does not prevent abuse.

How do we as a society stop child sexual abuse? What is the psychology of the perpetrator? Studies on this topic over the years often refer to the abuser as being a victim and repeating behaviours. One would make one think in this case they would be less likely to inflict the same pain on another person, let alone a vulnerable child.

We will probably never know enough or be organised enough to completely stem the stream of child sexual abuse. However, when caught and found guilty, the perpetrators should face the strongest possible sentences.

Perhaps schools could conduct a course about child abuse through qualified counsellors (not by teachers). Phone numbers and brocures given to children to use in case they need it as well as assurances that they won't be handed back to the perpetrator.

It is a fine line because we don't want our kids growing up in constant fear but we do want them equipped with the confidence and means to be able to seek help.

Very difficult balance and I don't know the answer.
Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 23 September 2009 9:48:09 AM
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Nina,

By and large I tend to agree with this article and particular its conclusion.

I would take issue with you about the vigilante mob mentality. Specific solely "understandable" and add unacceptable.

Your original form seems to give tacit support such hysteria.
In reality such behaviour entrenches more problems than it solves.

Everybody teaches 'stranger danger' but omits to actually parent and train the children to have the courage of their convictions and say 'NO' to those they know and to desensitise the crime encouraging concept of 'not dobbing'. Let's also include a sense of knowing what is trivial and what is plain unacceptable.

The media doesn't help with it's sensationalising either. e.g. encouraged the woman who drove 14 ks to get hysterical and disgrace her uniform out side A paedophiles under 24 hr surveillance in a semi rural environment.

The lack of perspective and consideration of the consequences in the wider community on this topic terrifies me.
Imagine the victim and what they are submitted to terror/embarrassment of the overwhelming circus (comparable with piranha feeding frenzies) that surrounds such incidents. Then it moves on having savaged the victim, their family etc. Reporting is one thing but....

One can also wonder at the different attitudes towards women who 'molest' under aged boys.

Then let's not forget those vindictive mums that cloud the water by making bizarre claims by ex hubbies solely for revenge or custody advantages.

How about the group sex parties between 14 yos to me that speaks loudly of both societal and parental abrogation of responsibility.
One could even make the point that some girls/boys are traumatised and conditioned by the cultural inconsistency.

Finally, my favourite, lack of regard for the law and the principals that underpin them.
Posted by examinator, Wednesday, 23 September 2009 9:56:40 AM
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Examinator: I apologise I did not mean that I support the mob mentality at all. What I meant to say was that I understand where the anger comes from, but I don't agree with how it has been expressed.

Anti:

I understand your position in these debates well enough. but this gravy train business has got to stop. I don't get paid a cent for the work I do with the organisation. But I do spent countless hours every year doing volunteer work- raising awareness about this is something I do bc I care deeply about the issue, not bc I am trying to line my pockets. I've also been very transparent about where these motives have come from.

You'll also find that the people who work in the sector get paid peanuts and for the record, counselling traumatised people is one of the hardest jobs out there and yet these people get paid barely anything. You do not go into the sector for money.
Posted by ninaf, Wednesday, 23 September 2009 12:45:06 PM
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I think its disgraceful that a prisoner who has done his time is hounded by vigilante groups. The people in the Ministry of Housing who leaked his address to the media should be fired.

Who seriously thinks that a vision impaired 60+ year old with a facial tic is a danger to neighbourhood kids. He looks like the sex offender from central casting.

Children are more likely to face abuse from close family members or friends.
Radio National has a podcast of the experiences of a man who was abused as a teenager. The perpetrator was known to the family, and in a position of power over the family income. see http://www.abc.net.au/rn/360/stories/2009/2680045.htm
Posted by billie, Wednesday, 23 September 2009 4:06:21 PM
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This Is No Myth

Hi To All The Forgotten Australians
I Attended The Memorial For The Forgotten Australians On saturday 19th September 2009, And Layed The Flowers For The Lost Innocents ,

The Words I Were To Say , That I Was Given Were ( I Lay These Flowers For The Lost Opportinities And The Lost Idenities ) , I Added These Words From My Heart , The Destroyed Our Evidence And Our Lives Thank You

After Hearing The Service And Being Apart of It I Was so Emotionally Upset

The Goverment Say They Have Put 9 Million Dollars Into Resourses,

That Maybe well and good for The Future Of Our Children

But That Is Not Giving Us Victims Who have Lost Our Homes And Faimlys , Fighting For Justice These Things Back

We A Lot Of us Know What I Said Is True They Have Destroyed Our Evidence And Our Lives And That Of Our Truth ,

I Was Hurt After Reading The Papers On Sunday Their Was Only A Couple Of Write Up About Us Victims , No Photo's Of The Day , Of All Those Who Were Their ,

So Have We All Been Forgotten Already By The Goverment And The Media

As We Are The History Of The Abuse Of Australia's Institutional Homes ,

Wether It Be State Or Territtories, Institutional Homes ,

Orphanages, Girls boys homes Remand Centres ,State Ward Homes , Foster Home, State Run Church Homes , Church Homes ,Out Of Home Care, And Many More ,

I said To Mr Rees On The Day The Lawyers For D.O.C.S. State They Destroyed The Records Of The Log Books Records , Proving A Case Mine,

Seem To Go In One Ear And Out The Other , So How Can Any Of Us Get Justice When D.O.C.S. Own Lawyers State This In A Court Case , Then The Courts Dissmiss It In Favour Of The State
Posted by huffnpuff, Wednesday, 23 September 2009 8:26:19 PM
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continued

the other part of the rest of this comment i was posting is in the section they called sex children and failure

it will not allow me to copy and paste the rest so this site is over riding my writting so read the whole topic go to that article ok everyone

so i do not understand why i can not post the same post in another topic since when have these rules come into place , as thats what this is about letting people know the truth isn't it
Posted by huffnpuff, Wednesday, 23 September 2009 8:54:59 PM
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Pel:”These events happen behind closed doors and unless the child speaks to someone or another family member happens to witness the event or notice anomalies in behaviour or physical signs of abuse, what hope is there?
Mandatory reporting via teachers, doctors, nurses, child carers etc is helpful and alerts authorities to suspected abuse but it does not prevent abuse.”

If you call those people and alert authorities it places the children behind more closed doors Pelican. Before we decide to save kids we should all want to know what system we are putting them in.

Anti:”Nina is a member of the management committee of the NSW Rape Crisis Centre…”

Oh me gawd she must delivered unto us straight from the deepest pits of hell itself Anti.

Anti:”Every good Revolution needs a class enemy and Nina and her feminist fellows have found a doozy - the entire male gender (except the "good ones" of course...)”

Every good Revolution needs a class enemy and Anti and his boyz club have found a doozy – the entire female gender (except the “ones who are bonking you of course…).

Nina:”You do not go into the sector for money.”

Anti seems to have some new complaint (I know...just when you thought he was all out) about women who volunteer to help others.

Teens bullying each other for sex or anything else has always happened, this is them practicing being grown ups. I think in the past we knew about more of the bad behavior in our young people – smaller towns, more gossip, the parents knew their friends – they weren’t hidden by the internet and such an overwhelming abundance of people to be picked on or be picked on by. Your average teen girl myspace page is chocka of photos of them trying to look like playboy centerfolds. Gives me a good laugh but I suspect your average teen boy is having a different reaction.
Posted by The Pied Piper, Thursday, 24 September 2009 6:58:06 AM
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ninaf:"I don't get paid a cent for the work I do with the organisation"

But you do get paid with enormous amounts of publicity that you couldn't buy and you get to establish your "bona fides" as a "go-to authority" for lazy journalists who want a quote. You're personable, attractive and you're good at presenting the approved positions, so what's not to like? If you play your cards right you'll be handed a nice sinecure in no time. Karen Wills is geting on a bit and she's not real photogenic, is she? All aboard the gravy train...

As I said, I don't think you're dishonestly doing this, since I'm quite certain you fervently believe in what you write. What I have little confidence in, especially as time goes on and you become ever more closely identified with this subject, is your capacity to be in any way objective or to apply critical thought to the subject.

That's a shame, because your writing is really very good when you set out to provoke, rather than reiterate the polemic.

ninaf:"counselling traumatised people is one of the hardest jobs out there and yet these people get paid barely anything"

Oh, I don't dispute that trauma counselling is tough - I'd not want to do it. However, the NSWRCC has grants worth a $million and only answers a few phone calls, the vast majority of which are repeat calls about events that occurred some lengthy time previously. Here's a tip, a "crisis" is not an ongoing state of affairs, it is a short-term situation that requires urgent resolution. If the centre can't provide that resolution, why are we funding it?

From my reading of the centre's literature, most of the funding is for purposes other than rape crisis counselling, especially providing a suitably indoctrinaire environment for young female (and avowedly Feminist) social workers and disseminating a Feminist polemic based on "man as predator".

By the way, the server for the centre seems to be down this morning. Now that's a real crisis...
Posted by Antiseptic, Thursday, 24 September 2009 8:01:39 AM
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So it is OK to raunch but peer to peer sexual propositions could be sexual abuse and possibly on a par with the awful acts of Dennis Ferguson?

The rhetoric that leap-frogs from Ellison to Ferguson to awkward teens making out is simply breathtaking.

Nice to show sympathy for Dennis Ferguson, to question the gaoling of notorious pedophiles and to patronise those who are concerned about pedophiles being released into their family communities but what about the reported recidivism of such sexual offenders?
Posted by Cornflower, Thursday, 24 September 2009 8:34:28 AM
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'So it is OK to raunch but peer to peer sexual propositions could be sexual abuse and possibly on a par with the awful acts of Dennis Ferguson?

The rhetoric that leap-frogs from Ellison to Ferguson to awkward teens making out is simply breathtaking.'

Yeah I spotted that too.

I think we should just classify any male-female interaction at any age that leads to any physical contact as rape.

We started with actual rape, then the sliding scale down to 'she didn't say yes (or no), then down to 'regretted sex' the next morning, now we're down to 'unwanted advances', by teenagers no less. The next level is unwanted smiling I think.

Maybe Nina should roam the schools looking for what she might define as a potential 'rapist'. ie. any teen boy who shyly asks a girl out.

I'm sure in Nina's eyes any half naked photo a 14yo girl sends out is obviously a wanted advance to any boy. I thought feminism was into breaking down the stereotype of the chaste, virginal, pure woman vs the abusive, perverted, predator male.

Antiseptic,

Thanks for outlining the career path to becoming a 'social commentator'. I'm looking into this as it seems a great gig. You get the tele on the phone every time some journo wants to stir up a gender debate with dubious use of 'studies' and you get to vent your spleen on TV shows like Q and A. They even quote your credentials at the bottom of the screen, and introduce you as a 'Social Commentator'! To me it's nearly as prestigious as when they interview a 'Royal Watcher'.

But you seem to know so much about this rape crisis centre and Nina f, I think you should be invited to join the board.

The chick got raped, so now it's personal and one day she'll be on Australian story telling of all the people she's helped. Not really someone to get upset about is it. I mean, anyone who's anyone is into dubious use of stats and raising awareness to get more dosh for their pet issue.
Posted by Houellebecq, Thursday, 24 September 2009 11:24:14 AM
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Holley: We started with actual rape, then the sliding scale down to 'she didn't say yes (or no), then down to 'regretted sex' the next morning, now we're down to 'unwanted advances', by teenagers no less. The next level is unwanted smiling I think.

Through your paranoia and knee jerk defensiveness you have missed the point entirely. Of course I am not equating rape with unwanted advances. This was not a legal discussion about crime, it was a social discussion about stereotypes in misguided assumptions about how sexual practices play out in reality (I was simply making the point that when people think about the online sexual coercion of minors they often imagine it to involve Dennis Ferguson types, when in reality it is far more often someone known to the minor...)

Also if you're going to accuse my logic of leap frogging you might want to get your own facts correct (I've never asserted that I've been raped- this is a fairly large error to make).

"
I think we should just classify any male-female interaction at any age that leads to any physical contact as rape."

This sort of statement is just stupid and does not help debate at all. I think you'll actually find that I'm a sex positive, sexual libertarian. I don't censor a lot of behavior (including porn consumption, group sex etc) and it's not helpful for you to simplify and caricature my position in these debates in such a jeuvenile and unconstructive way
Posted by ninaf, Thursday, 24 September 2009 11:47:09 AM
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Nina,
Amen to the fact that one of the hardest jobs is to counsel a trauma victim and that the money is appalling.
I found that being a crisis volunteer gave me the greatest personal satisfaction. At least I wasn't sitting on the sideline and superciliously sniping.

The reality is that some people having faced trauma use the experience to overcome the pain to SOME degree (one never fully gets over it) and then help others.

While others don't comprehend, some even mock. Sadly some are overcome by it. Most ignore it because its more comfortable to believe "it won't happen to me or mine".

I raised the other issues simply because I've dealt with them as a volunteer counselor and hoped by doing so the fortunate few would see that the contributing issues are neither simple [cut and dried] or necessarily gender specific.

Anti
Publicity for a cause like this is hardly a personal payoff. "The squeaky wheel generally gets more abuse than oil." (copy right pending :-) )
Posted by examinator, Thursday, 24 September 2009 12:09:20 PM
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ninaf,

'Of course I am not equating rape with unwanted advances.'
You work for the Rape Crisis Centre, and you are doing 'workgroups' with teens, discussing 'unwanted sexual advances'. They're the thin edge of the wedge, it's all part of the rape education. We can put it in the same bag cant we.

'This was not a legal discussion about crime'
Only because you're not setting the laws Nina. Who knows where along that thin edge of the wedge progression from 'unwanted sexual advances' in your sexual ethics 'workgroups' is ripe for legislation if you could just raise more awareness.

ie 'that we don’t dismiss certain behaviours as “normal sexual socialisation” simply because those behaviours don’t conform to out stereotyped views of what *sexual offences* look like.'

'(I was simply making the point that when people think about the online sexual coercion of minors they often imagine it to involve Dennis Ferguson types, when in reality it is far more often someone known to the minor.'

As I said earlier, master of the bleeding obvious. That was one point in your article. But you did manage to lead through paedophilia to teen unwanted advances quite nicely, as cornflower described. Why you only have to put the thoughts together like September 11 and Iraq.

'parents often dismiss these contacts as being far less harmful.... '
Oh but we shouldn't should we Nina. The paedophiles and the teen boys are one and the same.

'you might want to get your own facts correct'
Yeah I noticed that after I posted. Attempted rape. Doesn't really weaken my point, which was defending you anyway.
Posted by Houellebecq, Thursday, 24 September 2009 12:40:53 PM
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"However, the NSWRCC has grants worth a $million and only answers a few phone calls, the vast majority of which are repeat calls about events that occurred some lengthy time previously. Here's a tip, a "crisis" is not an ongoing state of affairs, it is a short-term situation that requires urgent resolution."

Hey Anti- OK I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this but I'll explain why. According to your crisis/ trauma model, a person would be in 'crisis' immediately after an assault and you'd expect this trauma to subside over time. However the reality is that while trauma does generally decline over a long period it doesn't do so in a consistent arc. Often there are flare ups in response to memory triggers/ anniversaries etc etc. Often the centre gets callers who are suicidal or thinking about self harming over events which occurred many many years ago. You may not agree but I would label anyone who is suicidal as "in crisis"

"From my reading of the centre's literature, most of the funding is for purposes other than rape crisis counselling"

Anti, I would really encourage you to read 2 documents
1) "NSW RCC A best practice manual for specialised sexual assault crisis telephone and online conselling" I think it may help relieve some of the anxieties you have about the service provision.
2) The AGM report out later this year. It will point to the fact that the overwhelming majority of funding goes to into providing counselling for clients (through wages to counsellors, telephone lines etc). As for 'staff development' etc this refers to developing better counselling skills which benefit clients. Similarly,
other travel money is spent sending trainers to regional areas to train SA counsellors in those areas. RCC gets funding for this as they are recognised as having some of the best practices in this country when it comes to crisis counselling.
Posted by ninaf, Thursday, 24 September 2009 2:04:37 PM
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ninaf: << ...it's not helpful for you to simplify and caricature my position in these debates in such a juvenile and unconstructive way >>

Unfortunately, it seems to be the only way he knows. Sometimes, as in this case, it obscures entirely a valid point that he's attempting to make - however obliquely.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 24 September 2009 3:06:43 PM
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'It is estimated that in Australia at least one in four girls and one in seven boys will experience some form of sexual abuse. '

Could I ask, estimated by whom? Whenever I see a claim like this I immediately get suspicious. Too often feminists have just put around rubbish numbers to serve their own purposes. The problem with advocacy groups like the RCC is that they are not impartial or evidence based. They exist only to push their own pre-conceived ideas and agendas.

I fear your work with 'teenagers' is really code for telling girls they may have sex, regret it and then blame the boy. It's all about power.

My fear is that things are only going to get worse. Under the Labor government giving money to hysterical advocacy groups is called giving the community back its 'voice'. Their funding will slowly increase until we have the hysteria we got at the end of the last Labor government.
Posted by dane, Thursday, 24 September 2009 5:07:09 PM
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Pied
"If you call those people and alert authorities it places the children behind more closed doors Pelican. Before we decide to save kids we should all want to know what system we are putting them in"

True Pied. That is the other side of the problem, the potential to place children in another abusive environment. It is a complex problem and needs a real overhaul including consultation with people who are 'in' the system from all sides (homes, governments and community groups).

As long as it is not just a talkfest but a dofest.
Posted by pelican, Thursday, 24 September 2009 6:57:04 PM
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Dane:”Could I ask, estimated by whom? Whenever I see a claim like this I immediately get suspicious. Too often feminists have just put around rubbish numbers to serve their own purposes.”

Hahahahaha…

“I fear your work with 'teenagers' is really code for telling girls they may have sex, regret it and then blame the boy. It's all about power.”

Why would, in your mind, any adult female wish any adolescent female to act in such a way?

As adults I’ll just take a wild stab in the dark that we actually want our teenagers to act sexually responsible.

This subject is covering a few vastly different sexual encounters though.

Nina:“Sadly, victims of pedophilia have typically been schooled in the exact same myths and stereotypes about sexual abuse as the rest of us. As such, they often have difficulty recognising their experience of abuse as a crime as it may not fit with the clichéd media stereotype.”

My experience is a young teen will adamantly deny there was any abuse, they will insist it was consensual and I wish I had the key to unlock that door. I don’t think I can say that I would blame any myth or stereotype for that but will happily lay blame with the manipulative nature of a perpetrator.

I am wondering how “grooming” has developed over time. I can see it may have been more a “class” or obvious “power” based thing and has now become a very different beast.

Hey Pelican. That’s the thing, ‘they’ spend so much money talking and researching, funding studies etc. I never heard of anyone just asking a foster parent what is going wrong. I applied to be part of a study awhile ago – no they wanted randoms; can’t have someone onboard who had actually thought about the problem.
Posted by The Pied Piper, Thursday, 24 September 2009 9:56:46 PM
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Examinator:"Publicity for a cause like this is hardly a personal payoff"

It is when the cause is a hot-button issue for feminist women and the one doing the promoting is trying to make a career as a professional feminist.

The NSWRCC is not first and foremost about rape crisis intervention, it is about promoting feminism and expanding its budget. Read the website. Read the Annual Reports (you'll have to search, no clickable links).

nina:"t I would label anyone who is suicidal as "in crisis""

Oh, certainly. How many callers to the Centre have gone on to commit suicide? What is the raw suicide rate among rape claimants, including those who never got in touch with the Centre? You may be right, but some data would be nice.

My point, of course, is that it's only a crisis if there is a genuine likelihood the suicide will occur. If there is not, then it is something else. The phenomenon of attention-seeking "suicide" and self-harm attempts in the female population is well documented.

I'm sure there are some people helped by contact with the Centre. If all they did was offer that help, instead of constantly trying to expand definitions to attract a larger "victim" base and hence greater funding, which it then uses to disseminate a Feminist polemic, I'd be entirely supportive.

ninaf:""NSW RCC A best practice manual for specialised sexual assault crisis telephone and online conselling" I think it may help relieve some of the anxieties you have about the service provision."

From the promotion material for the ($50) manual:"The manual incorporates a feminist framework and adopts a feminist analysis of sexual assault. "

IOW, it's a "feminist" document, not a "therapeutic" one. As I said...
Posted by Antiseptic, Friday, 25 September 2009 7:01:34 AM
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Piper

You took the words right out of my head. I was equally gobsmacked by the claim that adult women would encourage teen girls into irresponsible sex and then blame it on their partner. Crazy stuff.

I agree with Nina that we need a re-evaluation on the most common sexual predator - it is not the stranger, it IS someone either familial or close to the victim. That is not to ease up the pressure on outing paedophiles, but clearly the bulk of sexual abuse is 'closer to home' if not in the home already.

I don't have all the answers, but I do know that ensuring children are educated (according to their maturity) and given a stable environment where they can establish a strong sense of self, they are less likely to be coerced into harmful behaviour for the benefit of a controlling person - be they the same age or older.

We require positive role models for both boys and girls. Ones where men and women are presented as valid courteous people, rather than sexualised or hailed as successful seducers.

Constant denigration of one gender by the other does not build self confidence or respect in our young people.

The time is now to lead by example.
Posted by Fractelle, Friday, 25 September 2009 10:39:20 AM
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TPP. Why would, in your mind,any adult female wish any adult female to act in such a way.
Fractelle. I was equally gobsmacked by the claim that adult women would encourage teen girls into irresponsible sex.

I just can't believe you people, only a couple of months ago we had the case of a mother letting her 12 year old daughter sleep with her much older boyfriend under her own roof. When the girls father complained to DOCS he was howled down. Now i believe he has custody of his daughter but of course all too late as she is now pregnant.What? are you all getting around with your eyes closed and suffering from selective hearing, are you going to tell me that it didn't happen.

In my own town i know of a mother who actively encouraged her 14 yo daughters older boyfriend to sleep with her over at her house. Another mother and her 14 yo daughter were only last year picked up in one of our local hotels for soliciting men for sex.
Posted by eyeinthesky, Friday, 25 September 2009 11:48:34 AM
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Fractelle:”Constant denigration of one gender by the other does not build self confidence or respect in our young people.”

Yes. Completely agree. But then letting the men and their DoCS stats from WA stand as TRUTH drives me nuts. I feel if it is not named for the load of feces that it is then someone out there may actually start to believe it. They’re clinging to them and it’s absurd since each one has stated no trust in DoCS and then tell stories to prove how they don’t trust DoCS and how DoCS get it wrong.

Eye:”What? are you all getting around with your eyes closed and suffering from selective hearing, are you going to tell me that it didn't happen.”

Okay I will counter your teens sleeping together with my own true story – 11 year old girl living with unrelated male in his late 20’s – females who contacted DoCS repeatedly ignored (call it howled down if you want) for years. Girl has baby at 14. Before you start on the mum – schizophrenic – dad unknown.

Now are you hoping she had a boy or a girl?

Eye:”… Another mother and her 14 yo daughter were only last year picked up in one of our local hotels for soliciting men for sex.”

And this has nothing to do with the men who are paying 14 year olds to have sex with them? All adults have Duty of Care.

Sorry Fractelle, I really believe there is something wrong with a few men here. Discredit women at all costs.

Even if the cost is children
Posted by The Pied Piper, Friday, 25 September 2009 1:06:10 PM
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Piper

<< ...., I really believe there is something wrong with a few men here. Discredit women at all costs.

Even if the cost is children. >>

I agree. Not one women here has claimed that only men are responsible for child abuse. Yet that 'certain male subset' would much rather continue the blame game than enter into any productive discussion.

And yes, the children are the ones paying for it.

E-I-T-S

No responsible and mature adult, male or female would counsel young people into having sex before they were ready. However, the fact remains there ARE irresponsible adults (male or female) who do.

So what are you going to do about it?

You could support policies that ensure children are placed into the custody of people who are genuinely concerned with child welfare. You could also question the instability caused by children having to spend their lives divided between two parents. Surely a stable predictable environment is preferable to gratifying the egos of both parents? Shouldn't custody go to whoever, male of female, is in the best position to care for their children?
Posted by Fractelle, Friday, 25 September 2009 2:07:50 PM
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"Oh, certainly. How many callers to the Centre have gone on to commit suicide? What is the raw suicide rate among rape claimants" Anti.

Surely you must be able to see the problem in measuring the need for a service based on how many people committ suicide after using the service? Obviously the aim of the counsellors is to discourage suicide/ self harm attempts. Where we differ is in our definition of crisis. For many people a crisis refers to the event (the rape). Where as I think there are 2 crises. 1) The event 2) the state of mind is in crisis following the event (PTSD). Recovery of PTSD is not like recovery from physical injury (gradually gets better over time). PTSD actually can get worse and worse over time if left untreated so by the time clients often call up (sometimes yrs after the initial assault) their life is in ABSOLUTE crisis.
On a side note you and many people here view feminists as seeing
"man as predator"."

OK I've wanted to address this for a while- earlier this week I put in a Govt submission relating to an inquiry into violence affecting young people. One of the criticisms I made of current antiviolence programs is that they DO tend to treat 'man as predator/ enemy'. I feel very strongly that Man is NOT the enemy and that feminists have made a serious error in alientating them. My own expereince has been that the overwhelming majority of men are just as disgusted by these crimes and that these men ought to be addressed and included in these debates as a very positive part of the solution. I really don't like being branded as a man hater. In fact I wrote the article 'angry, frustrated and powerless' (which you took exception to) bc I was very distressed by the way men are often portrayed as 'the enemy' in rape debates. I wanted to give voice to the fact that men are also hurt by these crimes (as either the victim or the supporter of the victim).
Posted by ninaf, Friday, 25 September 2009 2:28:58 PM
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NINAF. I feel very strongly that man is not the enemy and that feminists have made a serious error in alienating them. Thankyou Nina and well said. I wish you could try and get this through to certain other posters on here.[ sjf,fractelle,tpp,suzeonline etc]. This is the point i have tried to make many times. Men are only reacting to the constant barrage of anti man/father propaganda that has been coming from the feminist lobby for many years now. Your experience that the majority of men are equally disgusted by these crimes is spot on, and its a heartening sign that it comes from some one so young.
As regards suicide its disgusting that while enormous sums of money are being poured into supporting women in all areas such as rape trauma,sexual and physical abuse, DV etc, little or nothing is being spent to correct the male/female suicide rate which is 5-1.
TPP. As far as the 14 year old girl and her mother are concerned they were reported by a MAN working at the hotel. He cared about the child even if her own mother didn't. Perhaps if child protection agencies in other states would publish their statistics we wouldn't have to rely only on figures from WA. Why won't they and what are they afraid of.
FRACTELLE. I havn't seen or posted myself that ONLY women are guilty of abuse and neglect either, only that more mothers than fathers are guilty of it which the only figures available to us prove. You show me where i have. I do believe that the child should be placed with the parent that is best able to care for him/her, but that didn,t happen in my case for 3 years and it doesn't happen in many other cases either, only recently we had a child placed with a father who was a known sex offender, no different than in my own case where the mother was known to have mental health, and alcohol abuse problems and was known to be neglecting and abusing our daughter.
Posted by eyeinthesky, Friday, 25 September 2009 3:31:54 PM
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ninaf:"Surely you must be able to see the problem in measuring the need for a service based on how many people committ suicide after using the service?"

There's no problem. If the raw suicide rate is higher than the rate of suicide among those "suicidal" people ringing in, then the Centre is helping to prevent suicides. If it's not, it's not.

I must say I don't know enough about PTSD to make a sensible comment on it. I'll read up on it before I do.

ninaf:"I feel very strongly that Man is NOT the enemy and that feminists have made a serious error in alientating them. "

And so do I. I've said all along that feminism is treating social change as a zero-sum game, which means that for every advance made by women, there must be a backward step taken by men. the disgraceful situation in Victoria, in which white men are to be discriminated against with the blessing of the anti-discrimination commission and the Government is just the latest example.

Unless feminists like yourself speak up, there will come an inevitable backlash and that may well result in a genuine "patriarchy" that brooks no argument. think of me and those like me as "the canary in the coal mine".

I want my daughter and my son to grow up in a world in which they don't have to be concerned about which gender they are - just live their lives. Far too much is made of the "gender divide" when in fact they're two sides of a coin - neither can exist without the other.
Posted by Antiseptic, Saturday, 26 September 2009 8:01:43 AM
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Anti:”I want my daughter and my son to grow up in a world in which they don't have to be concerned about which gender they are - just live their lives. Far too much is made of the "gender divide" when in fact they're two sides of a coin - neither can exist without the other.”

Agreed Anti, I don’t want my son or daughter growing up with any “concern” about which gender they are. So far I think they have the usual range of opinions about each other’s sex. Until reading stuff here I had no idea this argument raged on or people felt this way.

I want them both to embrace what gender they are and appreciate what innate qualities their own gender brings and acknowledge how each gender compliments the other, I don’t want either of them to be parents but I do hope through life they will stop and help others and with some very well honed skills in the practical side of caring for children I believe they could both do good or at the very least show others how.

And I want them to do what is right and not ever witness harm to a child and do nothing. But in reality they have watched their parents lose every fight with DoCS when trying to protect children and although I’ve never asked them it can’t have escaped their notice that it is adult females in this department and their decisions that my own children have witnessed hurt the children after they come in to care.
Posted by The Pied Piper, Saturday, 26 September 2009 12:02:08 PM
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Nina

Thank-you for taking the trouble to follow this thread.

You made the point that teenagers are more likely to be propositioned by peers than by older strangers. Like many others, I was concerned by the way that young people who pursued other young people were discussed in a similar way to paedophiles. My question is exactly what factors do you consider when distinguishing acceptable sexual advances from the unacceptable? This information might help us to limit the number of females labelled as 'victims' without proper justification. I believe that society's tendency to label females as victims (requiring male villans) produces the unhelpful male vs female sniping that occurs here and elsewhere.
Posted by benk, Saturday, 26 September 2009 1:41:51 PM
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TPP.But in reality they have watched their parents lose every fight with DOCS when trying to protect children.
Yeah my own daughter watched me lose every battle with DOCS/fAMILIES SA and the family court, all that is except the final one, and even then she had to SHAME them into doing something.
Posted by eyeinthesky, Saturday, 26 September 2009 4:44:00 PM
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>>You could also question the instability caused by children having to spend their lives divided between two parents.

not only could you, there is no shortage of man-hating psychosocial hacks doing just that.

>> Surely a stable predictable environment is preferable to gratifying the egos of both parents?

surely dealing realistically with childhood needs and parental desires is preferable to this kind of nasty slur.

>>Shouldn't custody go to whoever, male of female, is in the best position to care for their children?

which would just happen to be the mother ...
Posted by bushbasher, Saturday, 26 September 2009 9:05:11 PM
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Eye:””TPP.But in reality they have watched their parents lose every fight with DOCS when trying to protect children.”

Yeah my own daughter watched me lose every battle with DOCS/fAMILIES SA and the family court, all that is except the final one, and even then she had to SHAME them into doing something.””

Leaves a bad taste. You find yourself unable to comprehend why they wont listen and why they make the decisions they do. And there is no one that will listen, no other department to go to. Australia shouldn’t have to wait for a child to speak up, it is shameful.

The children I have are too young to speak up or have been through so many traumas they are incapable of defending themselves and usually not invited to be court to do so.

I am guessing that if court was better then DoCS/Families SA/Child Safety Queensland and all the sister agencies in other states would be forced to change.

That word “better” – probably someone cleverer than me could define it.
Posted by The Pied Piper, Saturday, 26 September 2009 9:28:23 PM
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TPP, "I want them both to embrace what gender they are and appreciate what innate qualities their own gender brings and acknowledge how each gender compliments the other, I don’t want either of them to be parents"

Is that a Freudian slip or do you really mean that you don't want your son or daughter to have children?

It is a bit stiff encouraging your children not to have children especially when you yourself have taken more children on board during their younger years.

Not judging, but it is a remarkable revelation and they will see your behaviour as inconsistent. Should they always carry the burden of what you have seen?
Posted by Cornflower, Sunday, 27 September 2009 8:20:27 AM
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Hey Cornflower, Sorry I meant I didn’t/don’t want them to have biological children. I would be happy for them parent.

They will always carry the burden of what our whole family has seen (hardly akin to war, pestilence, death and famine) but through seeing what they have they also understand how little the biology matters.

It may go against the grain in these threads about fathers compared to boyfriends.
Posted by The Pied Piper, Sunday, 27 September 2009 3:26:00 PM
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TPP:"how little the biology matters."

The children you see may all be damaged in some way, but they represent a very small subset of children. Biology matters a whole lot
Posted by Antiseptic, Sunday, 27 September 2009 4:51:57 PM
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TPP

Why don't you want them to have their own children but it is OK to parent (does that mean adopt)? That makes it sound as though biology matters but in a negative sense in their case.

Or are you thinking that our children should be childless to make up for the excesses of others abroad? Maybe their right to have children is being taken away from them by governments who through pursuing reckless record immigration numbers year after year, have made Australia's population growth higher than criticised Asian countries.

Not much of a life for many youth in a country that prefers to take in large numbers of migrants as job fodder to suit the big end of town while refusing to train or retrain its own people.

In Brisbane it is said that two suburbs supply the vast majority Queensland's criminal population. It wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that the same suburbs probably also supply many of the at-risk children for you and others to foster. Of course these suburbs also have high unemployment and family traditions of unemployment and welfare dependence that go back generations. The Australian government prefers to recruit tradies and other manual workers from overseas than train them though.
Posted by Cornflower, Monday, 28 September 2009 7:31:59 AM
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Anti,
TPP sent me this it may help us to understand a little in relation to Attachment and non-Attachment and our need to build a secure family base with one parent at home

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/915447-overview


Preferrably I say the woman stay at home to build that base for the child and the man sacrifices some of his Attachment with the child to go out and work so as to provide the funds so that women can have the secure base for the mans child
SAHM's should NOT be under-estimated as to the importance that they are to, first the child, then the man then to all of society.
Man then instead of going to the pub after work like they used to and some still do come home to the child to make up for time spent away from his children also assist then the woman with the child
People have to understand (both male and female) that to bring a child into this world is a life long committment and if either are not ready for this committment then DON"T play at the games that has a child as its end result
Thanks All have a good life from Dave
Posted by dwg, Monday, 28 September 2009 7:43:45 AM
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Anti:The children you see may all be damaged in some way, but they represent a very small subset of children. Biology matters a whole lot.”

Nup doesn’t. But we’re coming from different perspectives. As mum I know the depth of feeling I had and have for my own children. I know that bond and those emotions are the same with someone elses child… adopted or fostered. For my kids having an amazing man parent them from very young who was not a biological parent has helped them realise what importance DNA has; zero.

Corn:“Why don't you want them to have their own children but it is OK to parent (does that mean adopt)? That makes it sound as though biology matters but in a negative sense in their case.”

Adopt or foster (you can adopt a foster child after two years in your Long Term care), plenty of children already here that need good parents.

“Or are you thinking that our children should be childless to make up for the excesses of others abroad? Maybe their right to have children is being taken away from them by governments who through pursuing reckless record immigration numbers year after year, have made Australia's population growth higher than criticised Asian countries.”

No wasn’t thinking about children abroad, more about the 30,000 Australian state wards already here. But interesting point.

“In Brisbane it is said that two suburbs supply the vast majority Queensland's criminal population. It wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that the same suburbs probably also supply many of the at-risk children for you and others to foster. Of course these suburbs also have high unemployment and family traditions of unemployment and welfare dependence that go back generations.”

Yep – more to do with environment the parents are in and raised in. This is where stats come from aye
Posted by The Pied Piper, Monday, 28 September 2009 7:55:52 AM
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Pied
I would argue that biology does matter and means a lot to many people - but it is not everything.

In the case of adopted children there is often a very strong need to understand one's roots or where we come from. I am not sure if this is a natural biological or evolutionary need or whether it is a social construct. And this matters to many adoptees despite being raised by loving and caring parents.

I tend to lean on the side that we do have an inherent need to know about our 'genes' even though on a pragmatic level we know that genetic links alone do not necessarily make a good parent nor that our genetic code dictates who we are in isolation from other factors.

This does not mean that biology should win over other considerations. It would appear in custody or care arrangements too much might be made of parent rights instead of the rights of children to live in a continuous safe, harmonious and loving environment.
Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 29 September 2009 8:07:38 AM
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Biology does matter. Most biological parents of both genders never harm their child. Have a read of Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene" for a pretty good explanation of why it's important.

I'm sure that while the rate of neglect and abuse is high among single mothers it would be higher still if the children were in the care of someone unrelated. Think of huffnpuff's lament.

It is precisely because we have the biological drive to protect our own children that we are so shocked and perhaps even in denial about the fact that some people seem to have either missed out on that drive or have been forced into situations in which it becomes less importent to them.

TPP may do a good job - we've only her word for that, but whether she does or not, it's London to a brick that the kids she sees would be better off with a loving, responsible couple of parents.
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 29 September 2009 8:24:10 AM
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Hey Anti, This is a turn around for you – most mums never harm their child? That would be “significant harm” – I agree and same with dads.

“I'm sure that while the rate of neglect and abuse is high among single mothers it would be higher still if the children were in the care of someone unrelated. Think of huffnpuff's lament.”

NSW is happy to continue the treatment of children that created huffnpuff’s lament. And ProffesorAu and Gypsy, there is a few around aye.

“It is precisely because we have the biological drive to protect our own children that we are so shocked and perhaps even in denial about the fact that some people seem to have either missed out on that drive or have been forced into situations in which it becomes less important to them.”

Oh see I don’t have that block, if I think back I probably used to be more shocked. They might be forced or just raised to not see a better way. But I am surprised at you Anti – I thought many men in this thread just thought women were in general innately programmed to neglect and batter their children.

“TPP may do a good job - we've only her word for that, but whether she does or not, it's London to a brick that the kids she sees would be better off with a loving, responsible couple of parents.”

Oh yeah they do need a loving, responsible couple of parents… cause some their biological ones often did bad things to them. Would have been better if nothing bad every happened, would have been better if the foster care system in this state/country worked better and kept the kids safe.

And you hit the nail on the head – you only have my word for it – cause no one comes to check foster kids or the foster homes. It is appalling. Same as being clear about where the money goes, foster homes should be inspected.
Posted by The Pied Piper, Tuesday, 29 September 2009 4:19:50 PM
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"This does not mean that biology should win over other considerations. It would appear in custody or care arrangements too much might be made of parent rights instead of the rights of children to live in a continuous safe, harmonious and loving environment."

Changes in law should revolve around this one paragraph Pelican.
Posted by The Pied Piper, Tuesday, 29 September 2009 4:24:56 PM
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TPP.I thought many men on this thread just thought women were in general innately programmed to neglect and batter their children.
I havn't seen any men post anything like that, only that most child neglect and abuse is carried out by mothers, but is a rather typical response that i would expect from people like you or suzeonline. And you have the hide to say that the men here are predictable and no fun to debate.pffffffffft.
Posted by eyeinthesky, Tuesday, 29 September 2009 4:47:40 PM
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