Yeah, Malcolm, we heard you the first time: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=9402#150545

What's your point?

As an organisation of evidence-based practitioners, the APA correctly states that there are no conclusive explanations of the causes of sexual orientation. Further, the APA very prudently declines to speculate on the various theories on offer.

http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html#whatcauses

Scrupulous use of external sources normally includes naming the specific source, and in online discussions providing a link, so that your readers can check the quote and the context in which it appears. You have provided this quote twice, without the link, and both times you have selectively ended your quote just before the statement:

"most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."

I tried to check your claim that the APA recently changed its position, but in the limited time I have available, I've been unable to confirm this. However I did find that your quote about the recent change was lifted from Joseph Nicolosi's rabidly anti-gay NARTH site http://www.narth.com/docs/deemphasizes.html

Given your selective use of the APA's material, your undeclared quoting from an extremist website, and earlier concealment of your motivation for joining this discussion in the first place, I think I am more than justified in once again questioning your honesty.

Some posters keep mentioning menz (sic) groups that hate women, yet I know that such groups as the Mens Health and Wellbeing Association are highly regarded locally for their very positive, constructive approach to relationships and women. We know couples who have benefited greatly from their workshops and some have even sent older sons to the activities.

Here is such a group:

http://www.mhwaq.org.au/

When one looks at it, what possible benefit could there be in encouraging 'testosterone fuelled' reactions from men who are already suffering from family breakdown?

Perhaps some posters are overreacting to the advocacy of the few without any practical exposure to the larger elephant - the mens groups who do a very good job of helping men explore and develop themselves. I don't think that men are poor communicators - quite the reverse in fact - but there are differences in expectation and communication style. Even getting most men to think of themselves and especially to put their health number one is hard in a society that encourages a twisted masculinity that requires that men ceaselessly strive, martyr themselves, do not share feelings with one another, put up with pain without complaint and so on.

Below is a page of links from what seems to be a common men's site on the Net (says Google!) and I am interested to know from the posters who generalise about offensive (to women) menz' groups just which are the groups they are complaining about by name and what specifically is the problem with each.

www.mensgroups.com.au/

If men are to be helped and most do need support as do many women, surely we should be getting behind the groups that do a good job and will be accessed by men. I cannot see any useful purpose in just bagging all as 'menz' groups.

Anyhow, what about a list of Australian men's groups and the pros and cons of each? Do any have free counselling and courses or is it all user pays?

I think it's really up to me to summarise.

188 comments says a lot about how threatened the women posters seem to feel about any renewal or encouragement of fatherhood or even just talking about fathers, and the threat CJ feels that religious people may sneak onto the forum without established user permission.

Classic pieces included...

'poorly expressed misogyny'
CJ wanting the misogyny to be better expressed by the male posters. I have to agree.

suzeonline complaining all the men were just bitter about their failed marriages and having one-sided stories, then going into depth about her father leaving her mother and such when she was young.

The constant attitude of the feminist posters to look for reasons why women may abuse their children, from previous parental neglect, to socio-economic circumstances, alcohol and drug abuse, to... you guessed it... being abused by men and the father not being around.

The total absence of this attitude from the same posters when it's men who abuse children. ie. No excuses, it's just the nature of men. Women just care more about the kids, everyone knows that.

Piper. Well most of her posts.

particularly,

mens groups 'attacking women where they can'. Classic. That's how I feel about feminist sites. Anywhere 'where they can', havin' a go at attacking men. Too funny. Like how CJ attacks anti... where he can.

and,

'“A big call from Telstra, a major sponsor of the NRL, who on fathers day weekend had every field emblazoned with "call mum too"”

Did you call your mum and complain? '

and,

'Do you know if Warwick is sending over any more? Should I put the kettle on?'

It seems to me that many who have failed in their marriages seem bitter against those who have not. Hmmm.

G'Day All
I Found "NSW Government caught lying to shore up Womens D.V. Figures" on
www.familylawwebguide.com.au
http://www.familylawwebguide.com.au
should get you there
These figures have some interesting stats.
Thanks have a great life from Dave

Forgot to list
http://www.famliylawwebguide.com.au/cc/pg/news/view/730
Thanks have a good life from Dave