John Pilger,

You argue that a "holocaust happened in East Timor, telling us more about rapacious Western power, its propaganda and true aims, than even current colonial adventures".

You are obviously ashamed of being a Westerner as you crticise and criticise. Do you have actually any ideas about how we should restucture the balance of powers in international relations?

Have you thought about moving to one of the more altruistic and less corrupt nations of the world? It must be very hard for you if you live in a Western nation and enjoy a first world standard of living. Or have you already moved to a non-Western nation?

Sure, highlighting our past wrongs is important, but a little bit more balance would not go astray.

Thanks for that ,John.I was going to see the film but now I will give it a miss.There are enough lies going around without making a special trip and paying to hear some more.

AND PORTUGAL?

Pilger is obviously put out that the movie did not express his abiding hatred for the (Anglo) countries he continues to live in.

Apparantly Whitlam did use intelligence/information at hand to warn Shackleton (of the Balibo Five) BEFORE they reached East Timor.

According to Evan Williams who worked in Whitlam's Office at the time (1975) http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25914564-15803,00.html :

"When Shackleton interviewed Whitlam twice in 1975 before his departure for East Timor, Whitlam warned him that the situation was increasingly dangerous and that the Australian government had no way of protecting him or his colleagues. Those interviews are on record.

... The real villain of 1975 was Portugal, the worst European colonial power and the longest-surviving European dictatorship, which had done nothing to prepare for their inevitable withdrawal from the region.

...In 1999, Australian troops were part of the peacekeeping force that led to East Timorese independence and the creation of Timor-Leste. Australian troops are still helping to keep the peace in Timor-Leste. What Whitlam and others feared has come to pass: the presence of a militarily unstable and economically unviable client state on Australia's doorstep. Nowhere in Balibo are these facts acknowledged...."

Its all very convenient for some Timor Leste politicians gaining top prizes at the UN while their countrymen fought, starved and died. That leader is now President and is lauded in the movie. Other current leader lived in comparitive comfort in Jakarta for years - in a sort of gaol but having a phone, laptop and bribed guards running errands...

We can all highlight aspects.

Pilger should cover this aspect - Portugal and the half Portugese who now rule East Timor and revise its history.

Pete

With Konfrontasi (Confrontation) over Malaysia still very fresh in the minds of Indonesia, I find it strange that Indonesia did not first forewarn Australia, to test the waters, regarding East Timor.

"Balibo" is just what the title claims... a dramatization of the murder of five Australian Journalists told through the experiences of the sixth Journalist, executed in Dili a few days later. The political intrigue and conspiracy surrounding the sacrifice of East Timor has it's parallels in West Papua where the same neo-colonial theft of the resource wealth belonging to indigenous people is again being played out. John Pilger correctly draws attention to these omissions which should provide the script of a documentary when the East Timorese write their history; Not to be confused with the version that the present Government would write that seeks to deny common justice to the victims of Indonesian excesses. The present Government dominated by elites that deliberately destabilised the Alkatiri Government to establish cronyism,nepotism and corruption in their efforts to squander the proceeds of the Petroleum Fund set up as a source of future revenue to finance infrastructure priorities.

The tardy Australian intervention was too little too late and although warmly welcomed in the beginning has now damaged their early reputation and are seen by many as expressing political partisanship.

The early departure of the Portuguese needs to be viewed through the eyes of departing right wing governors who wanted no part of a liberated population and couldn't get off the island quick enough.

There is another seeker of truth coming to Australia in Nov 09.http://www.ae911truth.org/ They want nothing less than a open investigation into 911.They have 777 architects and engineers who do not believe the official conspiracy theory.Very few know about building 7 that came down in a controlled demolition fashion with no aircraft collision and was not included in the original enquiry.
END THE 911 CONSPIRACY THEORIES BY DEMANDING AN OPEN ENQUIRY.

Maracas1

Pilger instantly puts people's back up but what YOU say makes a bit more sense. Portugal ditching East Timor left an East Timor with a name "Democratic Republic" and Maoist aspirations (of some) that was off the tolerance meter for the non-Russian/Chinese/Cuban world.

Sincere Leftists (including Fretilin) tried too much, too soon, and had the whole "democratic" world including Suharto (bless it) breathing down its neck. Australia was but an accepting toady - as it is most things Indonesian.

"The present Government dominated by elites" True but a fair few in Fretilin are also of the completely dominating Mestico elite. Portugal has handicapped Timor Leste... with its language but provided nothing for the future. "Yes I think Portugese is an advantageous business language said the East Timorese businessman to the...Cardinal"

"squander the proceeds of the Petroleum Fund" The luxury car allowance or bribe offered to all ET MPs was impressively rejected by many in Fretilin but embraced by Centrist (Mercedes MPs) in a poor country.

Aussies "expressing political partisanship." All I've heard is that too many diggers act like an Army of Occupation and in favour of Kirsty's Old Man ;)

" early departure of the Portuguese " I agree - that Portugal did so little and enslaved so many East Timorese over the centuries that it should be ditched as the linguistic icon. Hanging on to that obscure Latin legacy for a country in Asia will not help the people.

BTW We have disagreed on much, and will again, but you're one of the best in OLO man :)

Pete
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2009/07/east-timor-potted-history.html

Pilger sure cops abuse for pointing out what really has gone on here and there. Come on, you guys. You're old enough to rather know the truth than remain in tutelage to the McCarthyite fantasies you were brought up and not see the world the way it is?
If you pretend something is otherwise than what it is you'll set a precedent whereby you may be warned not to stand on the road because a bus is coming, but deny it because your informant holds his face the wrong way?
Adjustment can be tiresome, but the alternative consequences scarcely bear contemplatiing for their severity. Down with ideological Maginot lines and fear not the truth which challenges cosy preconceptions, but sets us free.

Poor Johnny P,

Left on the sidelines again....

As usual and always JP struggles for relevance and is intimidated by the fact that the BALIBO film has drawn more attention to the plight of the East Timorese and the 6 murdered Australian based journalist, in 2 months, than he has been able to do in a whole lifetime.

I am taking some 20 people to see the film this afternoon. Will you and your mate David be out the front of the cinema with placards, perhaps with drafts of your own script? Your own version of history...

Why dont you head off to the funding bodies Johnny and try and get your own version made.

I am off to see an Australian film today.....SORRY!

trizzie

I am not exactly sure what responsibility exactly the Australian government of the time should take for journalists who willingly put themselves in dangerous situations. I am very sorry these men lost there lives – perhaps they should have headed advice at the time and left as the ABC journalists did. But I am sorrier for the East Timorese people who had no choice and no-where to go. But short of going to war with Indonesia on "behalf" of the East Timorese, (that would have been a great follow up to Vietnam…..) – I’m not sure what people expedited the Australian government at the time to do?

Perhaps, if anyone should be taking responsibility it should be channel seven for not taking seriously there OHS responsibilities to these employees particularly given they were standing to gain ratings from the emerging reports

Thanks Arjay,

I am glad to see people other than myself want the truth of 9/11 to be told.

I saw a 1 hour version (there are also 10 minute, 30 minute and 2 hour versions) of the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth (http://ae911truth.org) movie "Blueprint for Truth" last weekend and can thoroughly recommend it.

Some in attendance saw it as overly technical, but for may own part it is very helpful to see presented, in that way, the incontrovertible evidence that the 'collapses' of the WTC twin towers and WTC building 7, which was not even hit by an aircraft, were all controlled demolitions, rather than being the 3 unprecedented engineering disasters that all occurred on the one day, and never once before and never once since, as the US government claims that they were.

---

John Pilger, thank you for an informative and helpful article on Balibo. It is indeed an outrage that evidence that our own government (even if, sadly the otherwise towering Government of Gough Whitlam) was an accomplice in that terrible crime.

If you are paying attention to this forum, would you be able to tell us why you think it is that no left wing newspaper in this country, not even Green Left Weekly (see http://www.greenleft.org.au http://www.greenleft.org.au/donate.php), which you commend, has uttered a word anywhere about the raging controversy over 9/11.

People who I approach on the street who sell Green Left absolutely adamantly refuse to discuss 9/11 at all.

They will variously say, and often within the course of a single conversation, that the case of the 9/11 Truth Movement is rubbish or that it is not rubbish, but to publicly question 9/11 in the least will automatically subject them, and any cause with which they are associated, to instant and total ridicule.

That seems most odd.

Green Left chooses to defend the ground which accepts that terrorists, from the region in which our armies are now fighting wars that they say they oppose, did launch 9/11, 7/7 the Madrid bombings, Bali, etc, but refuse to even contemplate examining evidence that (tobecontinued)

(continuedfromabove) would enable them to shift to ground which I would have thought would be much easier to defend, that is, the ground on which it is maintained that the US government itself committed the crimes which it has knowingly and falsely blamed on so-called Muslim extremists.

Could you explain why you think that is?

Also, as we speak the New York City Coalition for Accountability Now (NYC CAN) is fighting the New York City Council in order to force it to put to a ballot at the General elections to be held in November a question that there be a proper investigation into 9/11, unlike the sham 9/11 Commission and NIST 'investigations'. Although 76,267 Ner Yorkers, well in excess of the required 30,000 have signed and 66% of New Yorkers want a new inquiry, the New York Town Clerk has refused to accept the petition (See http://nyccan.org and please give generously to their legal fund at http://nyccan.org/donate.php).

Can you tell me wheher or not you think there should be a new investigation into 9/11?

If Whitlam was so keen, to, not have, a basket case, failed state, on our doorstep, in the form of East Timor? Then, why, the huge rush to get out of PNG? Despite extensive aid to PNG, it has been a hopeless, corrupt, mess, ever since, independence, and is equally in danger of being taken over now, by Asian, colonial, powers like Indonesia or China?

Of all the dirty, disgusting wars Australian military personnel, have been sent to? The WW2, pacific front, and East Timor in 1975, are probably, the only ones, where we should, have been involved.

Let's not kid ourselves .We did not go into East Timor to save the Timorise.It was all about getting the oil.It is often Corporate greed that premotes these wars.The reason we are in Afghanistan is the oil/gas in Turkmanistan etc.They want to build an oil pipeline through Afghanistan to the sea.

The USA is run by the Corporates and Obama just does their bidding.

Well, check out this site after you’ve seen the film and see what you reckon:

http://www.unsw.adfa.edu.au/hass/Timor/

Also:

JP: Australian intelligence had known 12 hours in advance that the journalists in Balibo faced imminent death, and the government did nothing.
CF: No evidence of this has ever surfaced.

JP: This criminal connivance is documented in Death in Balibo, Lies in Canberra, by Desmond Ball, a renowned intelligence specialist, and Hamish McDonald.
CF: Discredited at the 2007 Coronial Inquest.

JP: In eight of sixteen drafts of his screenplay, David Williamson, the distinguished Australian playwright
CF: Can't say anything about this.

AUSSIE LEFT BLAME MUM AND DAD

Just as the American Left blame all world disasters on their own country (usually the CIA) anything to do with East Timor brings out the Australian Left against Australian "authorities".

So where were the righteous revolutionaries of East Timor when the killing of the Balibo Five happened?

After the sainted Portugese dumped East Timor sectarian fighting mainly between the ethnic mixed Portugese elite (who now rule) started in Dili.

The official East Timorese Government website describes the time
http://www.timor-leste.gov.tl/AboutTimorleste/history.htm :

"On August 11, 1975, the more conservative Timor-Lesteese parties launched a coup in an attempt to seize power from the Portuguese and prevent the ascendancy of the left-wing Frente Revolucionária do Timor Leste Independente (Fretilin). Clashes between the two main Timor-Lesteese contenders escalated into violence resulting in more than 2,000 deaths...on December 7 1975 Indonesian troops invaded. "

The East Timorese forces had no idea of protecting their own border - least of all taking the usual responsibility for 5 white journalists. The journalists put themselves in the likely Indonesian invasion path - the main road between West Timor and Dili.

Like many journalists the 5 took risks hoping for a scoop - even though Whitlam had told one of them before - that they were going into danger - and that they couldn't be evacuated if they got themselves into trouble.

Basically Australia was not going to intervene in territory contested between a infighting East Timorese revolutionaries on one hand and fascist Indonesian troops on the other.

But the Australian of Left only remember the total of 6 dead whites during that time not 2,000 dead East Timorese.

Tells you about how we compare lives lost and the ongoing political agendas of the ignorant doesn't it?

Pete
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2009/07/east-timor-potted-history.html

I really take exception to those, such as plantagenet who, seek to hold the murdered journalists in any way responsible for their own fate.

I think journalists who are prepared to put themselves in harm's way in order to reveal the truth to the world as the Balibo 5 did should be revered as heroes and not dismissed as reckless headline seekers as plantagenet has attempted to do.

It is almost certain that they would have lived had the Australian Government not so shamefully colluded with the Indonesian Government.

If the journalists had lived and had been allowed to tell the world the truth of the invasion and the pre-invasion incursions that occurred around Balibo and if the Australian Government had used its voice on the international stage to support the right of the East Timorese to self-determination (as many US congressmen wanted them to do), it is likely that the political cost of the invasion may have proven too high for the Indonesians to pay.

Instead, because of the murders and the cover-up Indonesia was able to get away for years afterwards with feeding the world the fiction that it was pro-Indonesian Timorese and not the Indonesian Army that had taken over East Timor.

---

Also I think the issue of allowing the truth about East Timor to be heard should be separated from the issue of whether or not Australia should have intervened militarily.

As I believe I have shown, simply allowing the truth to have been told would have, in all probability, made that unnecessary.

I'd like to say 'Thank You,' to John Pilger
for consistently having the courage to
tell us the truth. If journalists don't
insist on letting the public
know the full story of events - who will?
Unfortunately, it seems that there aren't too many
journalists of his calibre. What a shame that the
film 'Balibo,' does not give us the full picture
of what really happened.

Perhaps, in time - another film will be made by
a different generation - with the courage of
their convictions - that will tell the full story,
in memory of all those who perished.

In the meantime - to John Pilger - all I can say
is a humble - "Thank You Sir."

Pete,
To clarify some of the early history and the short civil war...
In May 1974, Horta, who was a member of Fretilin ,had family ties with the Carrascalo's and forged a fragile union of UDT and Fretilin under the umbrella, ASDT which collapsed as the UDT realised that Fretilin,would outstrip them due to their large Maubere base.

It was the UDT that staged the August coup attempt,with the tacit approval of the remaining Portuguese and police who ordered the military confined to barracks whilst the UDT elements killed what Fretilin executives who remained in Dili whilst the bulk of Fretilin were in the mountains, introducing their policies to the Villages.

Rogerio Lobato,brother of Nicolau, led the troops out of the barracks opposing the coup and within 3 weeks, the coup had been put down by troops supporting Fretilin, who sought to hand back control to the Portuguese.Fretilin wanted to go to an election as they knew they had overwhelming support from the non-elites.

Meanwhile the routed UDT elements sought support from the Indonesians who were already carrying out intimidating incursions at the border.
Faced with the refusal of Portugese governors to resume control and imminent Indonesian invasion, Fretilin unilaterally declared Independence on 28th November.
Maracas

Dear Foxy,

I have seen the film BALIBO, have you? Who on earth would let John Pilger make up there mind for them.....

It is a superb film, amazingly told with incredible performances and crafting. No doubt you are looking for a political diatribe film from the likes of Pilger. I am sure you and a dozen mates would crowd into see that one.

trizzie

Foxy,

Right on. How can anyone assume the righteousness of one individual on any issue.

It tells you that some people are merely happy to hear the opinions of like-minded people rather than real debate.

The complexity of any issue/s is hardly likely to be answered by one person or persepective, even by St John Pilger.

Sorry, previous comment was addressed to Trizzie (not Foxy).

Chris and Trizzie,

I haven't seen 'Balibo' either and I may not get around to seeing it. I miss quite a few films and TV shows I should see.

It may well be that it is dramatically powerful, but I don't see how that excuses the removal of dialogue which exposes the complicity in those crimes of the Australian Government of the day.

How are audiences, who go to the trouble and expense of seeing that film, to learn the full picture of how their own Government elected to care for the welfare of all of its citizens as well as to behave decently on the international stage, colluded in the murder of its own citizens and covered up that crime for decades to come?

Most are unlikely to take the additional effort to find that information elsewhere and will most likely remain ignorant.

---

Foxy, John Pilger has indeed done us a great favour in exposing this glaring and inexcusable omission from 'Balibo', but has he "consistently [had] the courage to tell us the truth," as you put it?

If you check John Pilger's site http://www.johnpilger.com you will find that he has inexplicably failed to even once, as far as I can tell, ask questions about that other raging controversy, that is, 9/11, even though it has been used as the principle justification for so many of those other wars he rightly denounces.

How is his silence on that issue, 'consistent' with outspokenness on this issue?

(I should inform readers that Graham Young has objected to my raising, on this forum, "[my] conspiracy theories about 9/11", as he puts it, and has deleted one of the three posts I previously made on this forum and has threatened to delete any more which raise that issue. Nevertheless, I believe that I have shown that raising that issue, in the way I have in this post, is appropriate.)

maracas1

Thanks for the information. It shows how complex the personal politics and bitter the faction fighting were in emerging Timor Leste in 1975.

Nothing was cut and dried or simply good vs bad.

In that vain the accounts of Australians involved in the decision making processes present a more complex picture of the journalists and East Timor than today's Anglo activists would wish.

For example in a speech he made June 26, 2002 Gough Whitlam pointed out the warnings he gave:

"In my book Abiding Interests (1997) I recalled my warnings to the leader of the five:

Before Greg Shackleton left for Timor I had spoken to him twice at Channel 7, where he produced the Sunday program This Week. On 18 September, before I recorded an interview on the Budget, he told me that he was taking a team to cover the civil war in East Timor. I warned him that the Australian Government had no way of protecting him or his colleagues.

...On 28 September...I gave Shackleton the Red Cross information and again warned him that the Australian Government had no way of protecting him or his colleagues. Nevertheless, he took his team to Dili on 10 October and to Balibo the next day. On the way they passed three ABC TV newsmen and an AAP correspondent who were returning to Dili.

...In one of his despatches Shackleton told Channel 7 that it was the team's intention to LINK UP WITH INDONESIAN TROOPS [capitalised for emphasis] should there be an invasion. Cyril Jones, the channel's chief of staff and news producer at the time, has disclosed that they appeared confident that this could be achieved." [cached on the East Timor & Indonesia Action Network (ETAN) website http://www.etan.org/et2002b/june/23-30/26whtlm.htm ]

Whitlam is usually a forthright and accurate speaker/witness. If Whitlam's depiction of the tragically murdered Balibo Five is correct their motivation may not simply have been revealing the injustice of the expected Indonesian invasion or "No Pasaran!" [the Indonesians "Shall Not Pass"].

"link up with Indonesia troops" suggests a mixture of motives and attitudes to the Indonesians.

Pete

I have an explanation for you, daggett.

>>[Pilger] has inexplicably failed to even once, as far as I can tell, ask questions about that other raging controversy, that is, 9/11,<<

It is because the only place that 9/11 is a "raging controversy", is inside your head.

But I sincerely hope Graham does not delete too many of your posts on the topic.

>>I should inform readers that Graham Young has objected to my raising, on this forum, "[my] conspiracy theories about 9/11", as he puts it, and has deleted one of the three posts I previously made on this forum and has threatened to delete any more which raise that issue.<<

They provide useful background colour to your contributions on other subjects, and enable us to determine, with some precision, the intellectual weight we should give to your views and opinions.

dear Mr daggett,

So much to say about a film you HAVE NOT seen. Saying others willl not bother to check the actual historical truths after seeing the film is a rather arrogant and snobbish discourse.

You sir/ madam are the lazy one.........

trizzie

trizzie wrote, "Saying others will not bother to check the actual historical truths after seeing the film is a rather arrogant and snobbish discourse."

trizzie, firstly, as I already said, I acknowledge and appreciate the effort made by those who make the effort to go to see 'Balibo' and would not cast judgement upon them if they do not then take the additional effort to find out, for themselves, the knowledge that was deliberately withheld from them by the film producers. In fact, why would they see the need to? If I was in their shoes and had many other priorities in life and had not read John Pilger's article and therefore had no reason to suspect that vital information had been removed from the script, why would I go out of my way to find out that additional knowledge from elsewhere?

The fact that more people, for whatever reason, don't check the facts for themselves, is an unfortunate reality.

If more people did, there is no way that the corporations, which guide the destiny of this country and their glove puppet politicians, would get away with as nearly as much as they do.

Also, I am dumbfounded to have been labelled 'lazy'.

I spend much of my waking hours trying to learn the truth that is deliberately withheld from us and distorted by our newsmedia and making that truth know to others as you would surely know if you followed the link to my home page, or looked at the articles I have contributed to OLO or looked at my other posts.

That is one reason why I don't get to see as many films as I would like to, including, most likely, 'Balibo'.

---

Pericles wrote, "the only place that 9/11 is a 'raging controversy', is inside [my] head."

(tobecontinued)

(continuedfromabove)

Pericles, as just one of many examples I could give, 9/11 is a "raging controversy" amongst New Yorkers, 66% of whom want a new and proper inquiry and 76,267 of whom have signed a petition which asks that the question of setting up an inquiry be put to New Yorkers at the general elections to be held in November (see http://nyccan.org).

So, to restate my point, given this and given that 9/11 is the principle justification for a number of the wars that John Pilger rightly opposes, if he was to be 'consistent', as Foxy put it, with his stance on the Balibo massacre, he would have either:

(A) stated clearly why he rejects the case of the 9/11 Truth Movement; or
(B) raised his voice loudly in support of the 9/11 Truth Movement,

... but he appears to have done neither.

---

I certainly agree with one point in Pericles's previous post:

"[My posts] provide useful background colour to your contributions on other subjects, and enable us to determine, with some precision, the intellectual weight we should give to your views and opinions."

I would certainly encourage anyone, who may find what I write to seem confronting and over-the-top (as I once did the case of the 9/11 Truth Movement) to look at my other contributions, articles I have written for OLO and my blog.

I suggest that people do the same in regard to Pericles (should he ever get around to making a substantial contribution, one way or the other, to the debate on this thread).

A good place to start would be his contributions to the still ongoing discussion "Money from nothing: supplying money should be a public service" at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=9092&page=24

Also, if anyone wants to see an example of Pericles' extraordinary persistence in efforts to obfuscate and employ debaters' tricks, please check out the forum discussion, please check out the forum discussion "A crisis in housing affordability" of at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4834&page=0 which lasted almost two months until October 2006 and consisted of 166 posts.

All this attention, daggett, on li'l old me [blush]

>>9/11 is a "raging controversy" amongst New Yorkers, 66% of whom want a new and proper inquiry...<<

I guess I was thinking that "is" relates to the present. That poll was conducted more than five years ago.

That makes the survey closer in time to 9/11, than we are to the survey.

"The call for a deeper probe was especially strong from Hispanics (75.6%), African-Americans (75.3%) citizens with income from $15-25K (74.3%), women (62%) and Evangelicals (59.9%)"

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20040830120349841

>>...and 76,267 of whom have signed a petition which asks that the question of setting up an inquiry be put to New Yorkers at the general elections to be held in November<<

That's debatable, as you very well know.

http://nyccan.org/NY_Supreme_Court_Orders_Review.php

52,000 signatures were submitted, half of which were rejected.

Where did you get the number 76,267 from? Your own web site? I see.

Or was it this one?

http://theominousparallels.blogspot.com/2009/05/history-timeline-of-population-control.html

It's a very precise number, by the way.

Corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative, as Mr Gilbert would say?

Talking of numbers - in the sense of a "raging controversy - even your 76,267 represents less than one percent of New Yorkers.

You will note, by the way. that I have only used the exact same information resources that you supplied. How come we each come away with a different understanding of the events in question?

And how flattering that you have drawn attention to my previous modest scribblings - ah, those battles fought and won, those pretentious swaggerings brought low.

Happy days indeed.

Whatever happened to the delightful Ms Newman? Still gracing the halls of academe, I trust? Still researching the Australian housing market by holidaying in France?

I guess somebody has to do it.

Dear Mr daggett,

Take 2 pills and have a good lie down...........

There was no information deliberately left out of the script by the producers of the film BALIBO.

You are lazy because you make points and big assertions about a subject ( re film) you have not bothered to see.

You have NO argument,,,,this discussion is over!

trizzie

Pericles you need to view the evidence before you pass judgement about http://www.ae911truth.org/ They are listed prominately on Sydney Uni's website as a call to action.There are now 786 professional architects and engineers who know a lot more than a mere accountant.

They are coming to Sydney on 12-14 Nov 09.Be there and learn the truth.

Arjay, I know you love conspiracy theories. They are clearly a hobby for you, just as other folk collect stamps or model trains.

The predatory plans of the World Bank and the IMF, the evil genius of the Banking system, the masterminding of the 9/11 tragedy by the CIA or whatever. All grist to the mill of your imagination.

The list is becoming significantly long, by the way. It is starting to tell its own story. Know what I mean?

But what is obvious is that you must have an infinite regard for the almost supernatural ability of these people, to cook up the most dastardly, devious and incredibly complex plans against humanity - and amazingly, keep them secret from the world at large.

How do they do it?

Time after time, as we poor peons go about our daily lives, these wizards-of-Oz are plotting behind their curtain. How can we escape their evil clutches, and discover their heinous plans...

I see people very differently.

I see them get up in the morning, go to work, do the best they can in the circumstances in which they find themselves, go home, have dinner, grumble a bit about how tough it all is, go to bed, then start the whole cycle again a few hours later.

It doesn't matter if you are Arjay or Barack Obama, the pattern is the same.

I don't see them sidling off into air-conditioned enclaves, plotting to rule the world, and coming out with the most incredibly complicated plans to do so, that rely upon absolute secrecy (in a world of few secrets, these days) as well as the kind of pin-point precision in execution that you only see at the movies.

But most of all, I don't give any group of people on this planet credit for having the intelligence, intellect and organizational ability, all in the same place, to do any of the stuff that you appear to give them credit for.

So that just leaves us with extra-terrestrials.

I guess it must be them dam' Martians again, am I right?

I suppose it may be a bit late to point out the bleedin' obvious, but that has never stopped me before:

'Balibo' is a movie NOT a documentary.

It is not even a 'docu-drama', what it will achieve is entertain and perhaps move some of the more curious among us to seek the facts surrounding the events in Timor L'este.

Or we could continue to conjure conspiracy theories and harp about how 'factual' a movie 'Balibo' is supposed to be. Believe me if there was no artistic licence taken with films like Balibo or even the 'Killing Fields' we would be bored out of our brains and the movies would run to days instead of a couple of hours.

But having a good bitch is more fun - ain't it?

Pericles

You are basically INcorrect when you said:

"I don't see them sidling off into air-conditioned enclaves, plotting to rule the world, and coming out with the most incredibly complicated plans to do so, that rely upon absolute secrecy (in a world of few secrets, these days) as well as the kind of pin-point precision in execution that you only see at the movies"

While I also don't believe in (non-governmental) conspiracy theories when a government is determined it can set out an intricate plan and coordinate its overt and secret instruments to acheive results like "the movies".

The US invasion of Iraq in 2003 came at the end of almost 25 years (since the 1979 loss of Iran) of US Government contingency planning to dominate an oil rich country. Planners from the NSC, CIA, State Department and US Defence did meet in "air-conditioned enclaves...plotting to.." carry out this foreign policy/energy security task. Cheney and Rumsfeld, as senior apparatchiks since the 1970s, remained leading lights in this task. 9/11, an unrelated event, became related through secret and overt means, to herd the US public into agreeing with the Iraq task.

"in a world of few secrets, these days" Wrong. There are whole layers of government see this http://www.asio.gov.au/About/content/AIC.aspx that do 95% of their work at a high level of sececy (Secet and Top Secret) - including 1,000s and public service and military in Canberra.

Those who have been one of them...steadily are made aware of a vast amount of information that the public will never know - and hence won't suspect.

Pete

It must feel really good to be so sure, plantagenet.

>>Pericles You are basically INcorrect<<

Not much room for doubt, is there. Especially with the capitals. Most emphatic. And convincing.

So, what's the real story, pete?

>>when a government is determined it can set out an intricate plan and coordinate its overt and secret instruments to acheive results like "the movies".<<

Just like the movies, eh? Oooo-er.

Like TV too, I suppose. "24" was no doubt based on real events. As told by "an insider".

>>The US invasion of Iraq in 2003 came at the end of almost 25 years (since the 1979 loss of Iran) of US Government contingency planning to dominate an oil rich country<<

And it was such a great plan too, wasn't it? Good job they spent all that time on it, eh. Not smart to cut corners.

>>9/11, an unrelated event, became related through secret and overt means, to herd the US public into agreeing with the Iraq task.<<

Unrelated? Are you sure? We'd better check with daggett and Arjay before making such rash assumptions. All that planning, and 9/11 just "happens" to come along. Nope. Must have been planned, by the same guys.

>>"in a world of few secrets, these days" Wrong. There are whole layers of government... that do 95% of their work at a high level of sececy (Secet and Top Secret)<<

And then leave them on the train

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23854548-663,00.html

and oops, there's some more

http://news.smh.com.au/world/more-secret-uk-govt-files-found-on-train-20080615-2qq6.html

or they send a copy to the Pope - presumably for safe keeping.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=4437

Or is he in on it as well?

You can't be sure these days, can you.

>>Those who have been one of them...steadily are made aware of a vast amount of information that the public will never know - and hence won't suspect.<<

Thank goodness we have you to keep us informed, plantagenet.

By the way, I suppose you don't have any evidence for this?

No, of course you don't.

Which just proves, doesn't it, the lengths that they will go to, to keep us peons in the dark.

My goodness, yes.

Dear Pericles

Thanks for working so hard on your reply.

The wicked Spartans and I just love it.

This is for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf-5uNp2qWc

Yours

Pete

Trizzie wrote, "... this discussion is over!"

If you don't want to participate further, that's fine by me, but I think what you wrote warrants a response on my part.

Trizzie wrote, "There was no information deliberately left out ..."

John Pilger wrote, "... David Williamson, ... graphically depicted the chain of true events that began with the original radio intercepts by Australian intelligence and went all the way to prime minister Gough Whitlam, who believed East Timor should be 'integrated' into Indonesia. This is reduced in the film to a fleeting image of Whitlam and Suharto in a newspaper wrapped around fish and chips.

"Williamson's original script described the effect of the cover up on the families of the murdered journalists and their anger and frustration at being denied information and despair at Canberra's scandalous decision to have the journalists' ashes buried in Jakarta with ambassador Woolcott, the arch apologist, reading the oration. ... All this was cut."

Are you disputing that?

Of course, until I see the film for myself, I can't know with absolute certainty that what John Pilger has said is true, but in my own life's experience, when people make claims and nobody, not even those who disagree with them, dispute them, then those claims turn out to be true.

---

I note that Fractelle has used the fact that artistic license is often used in the making of movies which depict historical events to confuse the discussion.

I would suggest that an appropriate use of artistic license is to to compress complex events or combine characters in order to prevent the movie from becoming unacceptably long. Deliberately withholding information which is of vital for Australian audiences to properly understand those events as well as the history of their own country is not.

---

BTW, as we are approaching the 8th anniversary of 9/11 and because some, besides myself, see a need to discuss 9/11 in its own right as well as in relation to Balibo, I have requested that a forum on 9/11 be set up.

I am still awaiting a response.

Dear Mr daggett,

One day you will grow up and not let mummy Pilger do all your thinking for you.........

You used the word "deliberately"..................

That is a rubbish, unqualified LIE!

trizzie

Daggett

You took my comments out of context - 'Balibo' is a movie 'based' on historical events IT IS NOT A DOCUMENTARY.

'Balibo' is entertainment first, if anything was left out or altered it was to maintain a narrative within a given time-frame. Therefore, discussing this film as if it was a historical record is pointless.

Notice that Pericles still refuses to view the evidence http://www.ae911truth.org/ and is reduced to attempted character assassination on myself as a method of diversion and attack.View the scientific evidence Pericles,then proceed to disprove it,if you can.

Of course I looked at the web site, daggett.

But merely putting the word "truth" in the URL doesn't validate the content.

Nor does putting your name to a petition indicate that you understand the first thing about architecture, or collapsing buildings.

It is just the usual mish-mash of half-baked ideas, encouraged by people who get their rocks off on imagined conspiracies.

Have a great, conspiracy-laden weekend.

You know you just love 'em.

Pericles another scientific reference for you see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_tf25lx_3o Prof Niels Harrit and 8 other Danish researchers have found positive proof of nano-thermite present in the 911 rubble.This is a highly sophisticated expolsive that could not have been created by cave dwellers in Afghanistan.

This is not like the imprecise science of climate change,this is forensic science that is either right or wrong.

By the way ,Im not Daggett.

Oops, my error Arjay.

>>By the way ,Im not Daggett.<<

But hey, an easy mistake to make.

>>This is a highly sophisticated expolsive that could not have been created by cave dwellers in Afghanistan.<<

But possibly not beyond the means of twentyfirst century terrorists from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE and Lebanon.

Not a lot of cave dwellers in those parts of the world.

Are you sure you're not daggett?

Trizzie wrote, "One day you will grow up and not let mummy Pilger do all your thinking for you ....."

If you look through my posts, I think you will find that I am not altogether uncritical of John Pilger, so I would suggest that that confirms that am capable of thinking through some questions for myself

---

Fractelle, I am skeptical that removal of all the scenes which show the Australian government's complicity in the murders of those journalists was necessary to make the movie acceptably short.

In any case, I would suggest if making such a movie a little bit longer than what is considered the ideal length of a movie for commercial purposes was the necessary price for including such a vital piece of historical information, then I think it would have been a price well worth paying and I believe that audiences would most likely have appreciated the movie even more.

As it is, it seems to me that there is no way that the audiences would be able to work out what happened from the way John Pilger described the movie.

It may well be that the omission was made for purely commercial reasons. If so, I believe it to have been a short-sighted.

However, it seems far more likely to me that the movie producers were leaned upon in order to ensure that a piece of information that would have given audiences a clue about the way governments actually operate in this country, was omitted.

---

Pericles,

Have you looked at the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_tf25lx_3o ?

Even, if for argument's sake, they were able to manufacture nano-thermite in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE or Lebanon as you suggest they could have, how do you think that Al Qaeda terrorists were able to get inside the Twin Towers and WTC 7 in order to plant the explosives, especially given that the security company which looked after the security of the two towers was run by President George W. Bush's brother?

Once and for all, daggett, I am not playing along with your logical contortions and mental gymnastics.

I do not buy the conspiracy theories that you constantly drool over.

I consider the many hundreds of hours you must waste on them as being of as much value, as if you'd been collecting train numbers.

>>Even, if for argument's sake, they were able to manufacture nano-thermite in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE or Lebanon as you suggest they could have...<<

I didn't suggest anything of the sort. I simply reminded Arjay of the actual nationalities of the 9/11 terrorists. The comparison I made was with his "cave dwellers in Afghanistan".

That doesn't mean I am entering into a discussion on the existence or non-existence of nano-thermite in any building anywhere. I'm merely pointing out that Arjay's assumption, that such substances could not have been manufactured in a cave, was irrelevant.

Jeez daggett, if this is the standard of argumentation in favour of a CIA (or whatever) conspiracy, then it is hardly surprising that no-one of any significance is buying your story.

What a gruelling debate John Pilger's article provoked. I've seen better sledging at the SCG, but then some of the slangers weren't as polite.

The Film starring Anthony Lapagla was far from convincing and the whole production lacked the pizazz of Hollywood. Like "Australia" with Nicole Kidman and co-star New Zealander Hugh Jackman, it is no box-office sensation. Film buffs will assidiously avoid the spectacle. Pity, we are reminded, without Govt gratuitous grants and tax breaks, our Film Industry ceases to exist. So much talent gone to pot. Ugh.

The Sydney 2007 Coronial Inquest into the Balibo Five Affair, presumably delved into all the claims and counterclaims, this debate centres upon. Coroner Louise Pinch : " the journalist were not incidental casualties in the fighting. They were captured, then deliberately killed despite protesting their status ". Yale University's " Genocide Studies Program " and the UN sponsered " Truth Commission " have some interesting material of the event and aftermath.

Gough " no-one-can-save you now " Whitlam and Co, have always professed their perfidious detachment over the whole sordid malfeasance. Everyone, including President Ford and Henry Kissinger were up to their eye-balls in treachery, deceit and good-old-Machiavillian - foreign - policy. Pity, over 183,000 Timorese were murdered in cold blood. 200,000 have never returned to their homeland.

Importantly, spare a thought for the families. Relatives of Aussie reporter Greg Shackleton (27) CHN 7. Cameraman Gary Cunningham (27) Britons, Malcolm Rennie (28)TCN 9. Brian Peters (29)cameraman. Kiwi Tony Stewart (21) dogsbody.

Despite the hoo-hah, Shirley Shackleton seeks closure. Greg's mother couldn't live the remorse. Sadly, she took her own life.

The Indonesian Official Report concludes the five were killed in the cross-fire. All the military Officers involved were subsequently promoted and rewarded. One became the Minister for Information.

Thanks, Dalma, for a contrary view of the quality of the movie 'Balibo'.

Until now, everyone on both sides of the debate who had seen the movie, seemed to be at least agreed that the movie was dramatically effective.

I thought Anthony LaPaglia was very good in "Lantana" and "The Bank", so I am disappointed to have learnt that one person here was not impressed with his performance in 'Balibo'.

If, as you say, after all that alleged resort to "dramatic license" the film ended up being "far from convincing", anyway, then they may as well have left in the dialogue which showed up the Australian Government's complicity in the murders.

Who knows? It just may have turned an unconvincing film into a convincing one.

And, even if not, at least it would have been a more accurate historical record.

---

Pericles wrote, "Once and for all, daggett, I am not playing along with your logical contortions and mental gymnastics."

That's fine by me, Pericles. No one asked you to join in this discussion and no-one asked you to raise the issue of 9/11 on the "Money from nothing: supplying money should be a public service" forum, either (See http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=9092&page=0#147432).

Pericles wrote, "That doesn't mean I am entering into a discussion on the existence or non-existence of nano-thermite in any building anywhere. I'm merely pointing out that Arjay's assumption, that such substances could not have been manufactured in a cave, was irrelevant."

Pericles, why would anyone quibble over whether or not nano-thermite could have been manuactured outside the US unless they had accepted that nano-thermitic materials had been found in the dust samples from the collapsed World Trade Center buildings as the the paper "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe"? (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_tf25lx_3o http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM) stated?

Hey dalma,

can I call you Dalma Stratton for short or would you prefer Margaret Dalma pomeranziono?

trizzie

I just learnt of another Australian citizen who has been treated so magnificently by the Indonesian and Australian governments and our newsmedia --- Schapelle Corby.

If I was a conspiracy nut, which, notwithstanding a few ill-informed comments above, I assure everyone I am not, I would be driven to ask such inane questions as:

What rightminded person would take 4.1 kg of cannabis worth $30,000 in Australia to Bali, where it is worth $5,000?

Why did the Indonesian police never take proper fingerprint samples from inside the bag that Schapelle Corby was supposed to have put inside her boogie board bag?

Why was the cannabis which Schapelle Corby was supposed to have been smuggled into Indonesia from Australia never tested to determine where it had been grown?

Why was all the cannabis destroyed before it could be tested?

Why did the Indonesian police never try to discover to whom Schapelle was going to deliver the cannabis in Bali?

Why did the Australian police never try to discover the origins of the cannabis in Australia?

Whatever anyone does, don't visit the sites http://www.freeschapelle.com.au http://www.freeschapelle.net or you may find yourself troubled by all manner of irrational doubts about the integrity of the Indonesian and Australian justice systems.

Most Indonesians know that Horta, as well as Carrascallao, were the true political opportunists. Too bad he survived the attempt on his life couple years (or was it last year?).
This movie should have taken into considerations accounts from Indonesian 'independent' sources, not to say that the Suharto regime was 'spotless' back then. Australia (its corporations) jumped in due to prospects of oil, it's widely known, even among Australians, if we're all being honest.
One thing that sadden me, glorification of Horta, which is out of place, and out of the truth.