KatieO,

Thank you for the Biblical references. I will look them up and think about them.

Also, please consider:

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26

One appears to need to accept god as real (receive knowledge) to reject god. Fallen angels and the Christian Satan would fall into this category. Yet, if one does not believe in something, it is hard to see how one can truly reject said entity. For example, I suspect neither of us can reject Zeus, because, neither of us believe in Zeus. For Zeus, we see, as a mythical being in the Greek pantheon.

Regards,

O

KatieO,

Thank you for the Biblical references. I will look them up and think about them.

Also, please consider:

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26

One appears to need to accept god as real (receive knowledge) to reject god. Fallen angels and the Christian Satan would fall into this category. Yet, if one does not believe in something, it is hard to see how one can truly reject said entity. For example, I suspect neither of us can reject Zeus, because, neither of us believe in Zeus. For Zeus, we see, as a mythical being in the Greek pantheon.

Regards,

O.

Dan, you pose an interesting argument.
How can an atheist reason that reason is reasonable, without believing in a supernatural deity which -by definition- defies reason?
Wow.
I liked the line about the monkey, by the way.

Grim, believing in God is not unreasonable at all.

However, the point is God makes more sense of reason than naturalism does. If God exists, and God created us, and therefore if objective truth exists, it makes perfect sense that I could have some trust in my own thought processes and in my own ability to assess truth claims. But if we're "hair challenged monkeys" (to borrow a term from DSM) then I'd have far less reason to trust my own ability to reason.

Trav,

Your comment "Dan is simply providing a solid argument against naturalism" By saying "how we can trust what flows from the chemical secretions in the brain of a hair challenged monkey?"

I fail to even see a tenuous argument.

A solid argument would require that he explain why we "should not trust" in a rational manner, which he cannot do.

DSM made the assertion that reason needs a over all basis. He has provided no reasoning for this assertion, and as I mentioned earlier, most would consider his "basis" to be Bias and the antithesis of reason.

going with the theme antithesis of reason..last post..[and by their deeds will we know them]...and need there be a clash...lol

Israel Threatened by Shoes,Toilet Paper And Laundry Detergent
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/May-June_2009/0905022.html

ISRAEL APPARENTLY considers toilet paper, laundry detergent, dish soap and shoes threats to its security—why else would it add these mundane and harmless items to a laundry list of basic necessities not allowed into Gaza?

Nor is the exclusion of these necessities a harmless idiosyncrasy—for, with the exception of goods that are smuggled in (see Jan./Feb. 2009 Washington Report, p. 19),..nothing can enter or leave the Gaza Strip without Israeli approval.
http://uruknet.com/?p=m54606&hd=&size=1&l=e
The besieged and battered 25-mile-long stretch of land, regularly referred to as the world’s largest prison,is home to 1.5 million inadvertent inmates,..nearly two-thirds of whom are under the age of 18.

im seeing a theme here..[the motivation and faulse intel ..[we-pens of mass distraction?..that sent us to iran,..by/via intense lobby from those following talmudic law..
http://careandwashingofthebrain.blogspot.com/2009/05/why-are-these-israeli-rabbis-so-filled.html

treating religion like a science..and science into a great destraction...needing a clash..to bring on armogeddon

http://news.aol.com/article/iraq-torture-photos/501890?icid=main|main|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Firaq-torture-photos%2F501890

lord..forgive them they..[mostly]..know not what they do..
http://uruknet.com/?p=m54634&hd=&size=1&l=e
..are doing..is bringing hell/..right here on earth

http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/05/28/mohamed-khodr-the-three-branches-of-the-aipac-the-executive-the-legislative-and-the-judicial/
http://news.antiwar.com/2009/05/27/israeli-parliament-oks-bill-to-outlaw-denial-of-israel-as-jewish-state/
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1088912.html