Any theories as to why God made the tsunami in the first place? Oh, that's right - hundreds of thousands died so that nice guys like Kuntoro could demonstrate how saintly they are...

Jon J

The amazing thing is God's mercy not judgement. The fact that you are allowed to demonstrate your arrogance and ignorance is testimony to that.

Dear John J

"Romans 9:14-18"

Have a nice Christmas and hope your family are well.

Dear Polycarp,

Why do you believe that citing a verse from the Bible is going to impress me any more than simply saying what you think? You might as well spell it out and save us heathens the trouble of looking it up. But here it is for the record...

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!"

Well, that's certainly convincing! Changed my views completely, that has...

Runner, if you believe that I am ignorant, now is your chance to educate me. Explain to me why it is that God gets all the credit for doing good stuff but somehow dodges all the blame for doing bad stuff. It's called the Problem of Evil, you know, and it's probably the main reason why the proportion of Australians who call themselves Christians has declined by 10% over the last ten years. Sort that one out and you'll have done a wonderful service for your religion...

Jon J

You ask 'Explain to me why it is that God gets all the credit for doing good stuff but somehow dodges all the blame for doing bad stuff.'

How is it that you suddenly believe in good and evil (absolutes)? Who are you to say what is good and what is evil. In some cultures cannibalism was looked up to as good.

You are ignorant of the evil of your own heart as displayed by your arrogant remarks towards your Creator. To think that God would send His Son to die a horrible death for your rottenness is beyond comprehension. Thankfully their are many that respond to His kindness.

It is not so much that God gets all the credit for doing the good stuff and dodges the blame for the bad stuff so much as a puny created being having the audacity to tell Him what is right and wrong. You really don't realise how pathetic you sound to a all knowing God. The likes of Dawkins are nothing short of pathetic, blinded by their own hypocritical dogmas

It is not about being saintly as other would say but merely someone who willing to work extremely hard for his country. In addition, post disaster rebuilding is so hard that even the mighty United States were not as successful

Hi Runner,

"It is not so much that God gets all the credit for doing the good stuff and dodges the blame for the bad stuff so much as a puny created being having the audacity to tell Him what is right and wrong."

Well, drowning 150,000 people certainly sounds wrong to me. If some human dictator did that you wouldn't hesitate to call him or her an insane psychopath. If God wants to be judged by other standards then it's up to him to explain why. So far I haven't heard any convincing reasons.

I believe that you're on record as saying that whatever God does is good. Do you want to explain why it was good to kill all those people?

Jon J
It is amazing that you find a moral framework when you want to. You write 'Well, drowning 150,000 people certainly sounds wrong to me'

You are not as willing to write 'well murdering millions of unborn is wrong' and yet suddenly you are the one who determines what is good and what is evil. The simple fact is that if drowning 15000 is wrong it is because God says drowning innocent people is wrong not because of your totally misguided morality. You argue strongly for a woman's right to murder her baby and then question God's right to start and end life. Your self righteous morality is evident. Behind your smears of God is your desire to determine your own version of what is right and wrong. The fact that God allows you such arrogance is testimony to His mercy.

The evidence of God's love is everywhere. I don't need to go past yours or mine heart to see the evidence of the sinful nature in mankind. I am very pleased it is God who is in control of the outcome and not man. The number of babies murdered at the hands of men daily is clear evidence of that.

Of course, as a Muslim Dr Mangkusubroto work was as the hands of Islamic God, i.e. Allah.

While it's nice to see that runner and Porkyboaz approve of his work, I imagine that he would find the stuff about God sending his son to die a horrible death somewhat underhelming.

It's good to see some ecumenical goodwill from a couple of our resident Christian preachers at this time of the year though.

Hi Runner,

Have you heard the expression 'King Charles' Head?' I think you need to look it up - try here for starters.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-kin1.htm

Seriously, if God really doesn't like abortions, why doesn't he just stop unwanted pregnancies? It would be much more effective than putting people like you and the Pope on the job, and it would free up so much of your mental energy for other things.

Leaving aside the ad hominem arguments and your obsession with abortion, do you really believe you can reconcile the existence of a loving all-powerful God with the amount of suffering that goes on every day on planet Earth? If 'the evidence of God's love is everywhere' then why hasn't it convinced the majority of people on the planet who believe in some other deities, or none at all? One characteristic of genuine evidence is that it tends to make people believe in it whether they want to or not -- something the 'evidence' for your God (or anyone else's) unfortunately fails to do.

So far everything you have said is circular: "I believe in God because I believe God told me to, and I believe in God..." If you think you have some genuine objective 'evidence' for the existence of your God then let's hear it; but if all you can do is spew venom then there's no real point in continuing.

Happy Hanukkah!

Jon J

You write 'So far everything you have said is circular:'

Everything you have argued is from the moral framework that you have established for yourself.'

The corruption of your heart is enough to convince me of how merciful God is. To think that God would be so merciful to puny people like you and CJ is proof of His love. The indifference and condoning of the murder of babies is also ample proof the the evil spread through the world by mankind (under the influence of the demonic). You can distort God's character all you like but considering your opinion is coming from an utterly corrupt character I really don't trust your judgement.

Don't you mean Allah, runner?

I agree that we can see how merciful Allah/God is in the deaths of 170,000 Acehnese from the tsunami. Jon J raises some good points - why don't you try and answer them instead of trying to change the subject?

Hi Runner,

Don't you ever feel somewhat abandoned? I mean, here you are struggling to promulgate God's word against abortion and gays and us corrupt atheists, and there's God, who could fix it all in a heartbeat, sitting back on his throne and not doing a damn thing. There are so many things that could make us all believe in God. Letters thirty miles high across the face of the moon saying 'I EXIST'. No more cancer. An end to unwanted pregnancies. If I won the lottery five times in a row that would be pretty good evidence for me at least. None of this should be any problem for a God who could whip up a universe in six days. But it doesn't happen. Why?

The only logical conclusion seems to be that if God does exist, he really doesn't care whether any of us believe in him or not. He doesn't seem to care whether abortions happen, or people have homosexual relationships, either.

So if God doesn't care, why do you? Why do you believe that God wants you to go on railing against these things when he himself apparently doesn't give a hoot? Once again: what evidence do you have?

people have miss-concieved that which god'does'[trying to'measure'an infinite good and loving[living grace]by the mortal'measures'of man[thinking'themselves'created in'his'image]

if you think god does anything but love us all;enough[to give even the least of us[abortuinsts[vivasectionists[the worlds busche's and idi-amins/hitlers should of itself reveal;whatever-else god is he isnt judging us]

see god as an enormous affectionate'puppy'loving the'lif' that temporilly animates this flesh[whilst in this'meat'or in'our'spirit body[our evolving soul]animated by his living spirit

try to see things as god does,recall satan was cast out of heaven[and sewn into the_skin of a'serphant']like adam/eve were'sewn'into the skins of'man'[like a king in the old test-i-meant]that for 7 years was incarnated[imprisoned]in the'flesh'of a beast of the field

see that it is our spirits that evolve[that are evolving]

who is to prove god does'evil'is only proving how much further they have to stumble through their spiritual evolution

jesus said[see that ye see me do;YOU WILL DO GREATER[greater than god?]jesus was man[born of woman;he died yet lived[was born again in spirit]this is his greatest teaching[proving'life'hereafter[or'life'AFTER'death']

death where is thy sting?who is to say dying is bad?[yes murder is wrong]and killing 60 million children scince the 70's[in usa alone]is murder
[but how many'deaths from just the living seeds crushed to death to make your soy latta[or your morning'cornflakes'or cup of'coffee'

god sustains all of us/our'lifes'gifts[think of the mass-murder an ejeculation emits[we live only because we murder other'life'to survive]but that we did to the least we did to god

we just dont get what god is is'all'living;all loving[god reveals himself only in life]either in this temporal life-experience as well as in the after-life

[we'can believe as'we'chose[god not only allows'freewill',but allows us to'repent'the vile we allowed to be done'in our names'

[but to get grace we need to give grace to others,[when we'cant'we get born again into'skins]

as god knows which'fetus'will get aborted,even abortion can be seen as an act of grace[but never excused]

either we learn here that ALL LIFE is scared[because of he who gave it]or in our next incarnation[we'earn'according to our'animal'nature[more of the same[according to our own nature]WILL BE GIVEN]till we get that[we cannot achieve any'higher'incarnation

CJ Morgan

Stick to issues you know at least a little about. You write

'Don't you mean Allah, runner?'
Find any committed Muslim and ask them if Allah is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and you are likely to find a bomb in your letter box. You fundie humanist have more in common with Islam than Christianity does. It is just your dogmas that hide that fact.

Runner - perhaps you should read the article before spouting your interminable and hateful fundy drivel.

In the article, when Kuntoro Mangkusubroto says

<< Twice I felt like giving up. I’m not too religious, but I believe. Yes. I trusted that we were sent by God to do this job. We are the extension of the hands of God and it is our duty >>

he is talking about the Islamic God, since he is a Muslim.

It is you who introduced the irrelevant "son of God" myth into his perspective. Dr Mangkusubroto believes he was doing the work of his God - your "Lord Jesus Christ" has nothing to do with it.

Watch your own letterbox, you godbothering goose.

I don't suppose you want to address Jon J's point about why God (at least the Abrahamic one) seems to be a wantonly cruel and nasty deity, if we assume for argument's sake that S/He/It exists?

CJ Morgan

I don't suppose you want to address Jon J's point about why God (at least the Abrahamic one) seems to be a wantonly cruel and nasty deity, if we assume for argument's sake that S/He/It exists?

You are a fine example of how the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is so merciful. To think He has allowed you many years to repent of your arrogance and self righteousness is astounding. Your ignorant or deliberate depiction of God is typical of those who are blinded by their own importance

Hi CJ,

Unfortunately Runner belongs to the grand old tradition of this culture (and this website) which decrees that while someone writing about science, politics or finance is required to provide evidence and make sense, anyone writing from the perspective of a religious believer can get away with nothing more than bald assertions and meaningless incoherence.

Thus we have Peter Selleck's latest jelly-worded article about the Virgin Mary; while a few weeks back he felt entitled to lecture us from a position of total ignorance about why only Christians could be great artists. About this time last year, Cardinal Pell assured us that God was not responsible for all evil; unlike a politician or a banker, however, he escaped any public scrutiny comparing that statement with his earlier assertions. We EXPECT Christians to talk rubbish, and when they do we usually take it for granted. I think it's time to make them put up or shut up.

It's not just that they have irrational beliefs -- we all have those. For instance, I believe my children are the smartest and best-looking children in the world. But I don't assert it in a public forum, and if I did I should be prepared to be challenged. Runner's vituperative reaction to a simple request for evidence just shows that believers have been getting away with talking gibberish in public for too long.

Anyway, I'm off on holiday soon. No doubt Runner and the others will still be fulminating when I get back.

runner: << You are a fine example of how the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is so merciful. >>

While I feel gratified that runner's God apparently allows me to live while exterminating 170,000 Acehnese, I'm still a little confused about which God he's talking about. Is it the exclusively Christian God, or is it the Abrahamic God shared by Muslims, Jews and Christians - i.e. the God of whom Kuntoro Mangkusubroto believes he is working as his hands?

If it's the former, why does runner simultaneously think that a Muslim is doing His work, while spouting typically Islamophobic rubbish about bombs in letterboxes? If it's the latter, what's runner's problem with Islam? I mean, it's the same God isn't it?

Verily, runner's Lord works in mysterious ways.

Well said Jon J - I doubt that runner will ever answer your perfectly reasonable question. It's obviously just too hard for his tiny worldview.

Have a great holiday!