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The Forum > Article Comments > An 'Obama Plan' for Israel > Comments

An 'Obama Plan' for Israel : Comments

By Yinon Cohen and Neve Gordon, published 11/12/2008

Obama can end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but will he meet the challenge?

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"Obama can end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but will he meet the challenge?".

Ridiculous statement. The only people that can end the conflcit are the peoples involved, not outsiders as they don't "get it".

For every country urging peace there are just as many urging the opposite. So how is Obama going to stop them doing that?

There truly isn't a solution to this problem as long as the Jewish people live where they do. They have every right to do so but all those around them will never let that be and we all know that.

So "a solution" is neither likely nor probable. It only takes one person to throw a grenade or a Molotov cocktail and instantly reprisals are on. They are still avenging things from so long ago they don't even remember what it was.

What gets me about this is that all the peoples' in that area are so closely alike that why they fight defeats me. They essentially have the same heritage, just depends how far you go back. Look much the same and even share the roots of their religions. But all 3 mentioned there have diverged for what? Possession of Jerusalem isn't it?

Solution, no pollution, yes of all the minds in that area.

Ridiculous article to expect or even hope Obama can change what history has shown to be a battle to the death.
Posted by RobbyH, Thursday, 11 December 2008 8:40:33 AM
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I can't fault the thrust of this article it appears to cover the main issues fairly. They are right in saying that in both cases the inmates have control of the asylum. Personally I doubt Obama will solve the issue simply because of internal US politics.
What the solution needs is to quarantine both countries from external bellicosity, rhetoric etc. So long as the ideologues (on both sides) have the political power to block the will of ALL the people or what is best for the people(again both sides) it will be war as usual. If any real change is mooted the ideologues will turn feral then internecine.
Controlling these cannibals of course is impossible; it's not democracy yadder, yadder.
Sit back and watch the disintegration and hope the maniacs don’t get their fingers on the button
Posted by examinator, Thursday, 11 December 2008 9:10:10 AM
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It's unlikely he can bring an end to hostilities RobbyH but he can certainly make a difference. US subsidies to Israel in the form of money and weaponry makes them a proxy state in the M.E.

The simplest and least palatable action would be to make these payments conditional upon Israel making more than token efforts towards compensation to those they've displaced and relentlessly tormented since.

Israel has all the water, all the land, all the weaponry, all the money, all the resources, the lions share of media coverage - but none of the public support it craves. In short, it has all the obligation to pull its finger out.
Posted by bennie, Thursday, 11 December 2008 10:51:25 AM
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As a Bible student it may be that the mighty USA is going to desert Israel...that she may already have this desertion in mind or soon may under Mr.Obama.

In Revelation 9:16 and 16:12 we see a huge asian confederacy army refered to as the Kings Of The East (China and regional cohorts) and no USA to stop this mighty army from crossing asia, and the Euphrates River, and moving on to Israel.

I have discussed this with other christians and some feel likewise that the USA is going to either dump Israel...or that one day the USA will not be standing on her feet sufficient to do any retaliation against the Chinese action.
One chap I go to church with says that the USA... and...Australia have already begun to vote against Israel in the UN showing an early shift in attitudes to Gods Chosen people.
Posted by Gibo, Thursday, 11 December 2008 5:27:53 PM
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How can Obama, or anyone for that matter, end a conflict that does not exist?!

The conflict in the middle east is not between Israel and Palestinians - it is between ordinary people who want to live peacefully and extremist fanatics (both Jewish and Muslim) that would not allow them to.

Even mentioning such phrases as "the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" is a victory to the extremists, whose object is to try to incite the one against the other. It makes them smile to see how the world falls prey to their definitions.

Well, Obama could take sides in the real conflict, but cannot achieve much on his own. Perhaps a coordinated international effort that includes all permanent members of the UN security-council can do more. The question is, will the world unite to meet the challenge?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 11 December 2008 6:57:10 PM
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yes obama has been fed a plan
bomb bomb iran [preferably while still under the busche watch]

recently ol rummy warned of an adverse attack expected the day before obama takes over ,plus israel wants to settle with the iraqies[its part of their feeling of being wronged thousands of years ago] [supposedly]

just look at who he has hired so far
http://www.cherada.com/articulos/with-a-clinton-flavor-zionist-jews-are-now-a-crowd-in-obamas-cabinet

http://www.bollyn.info/home/articles/polphil/rahm-emanuel-and-barack-obama/

israel dont want peace [thus it can continue to oppress anyone it choses]plus they believe the messiah will come to beat up on the palisteins[they need armogeddon to bring that on]

and good ol usa will do as its masters lobby it to be doing[frankly they think they can pull it off ,they learned nothing from their murders on that lowly state across the jorden ,even trangressed humanity further by using yanki cluster bombs]

if there really were gods people they would know god is the creator of ALL life [yes even thyne enemy was yet given to live from the ONE god[how does ANY death honour god?][if life is only by H_S will?

but the british neo con teutonic zionists ; lawyers/bankers run the show ,even gave them a letter from the bellfore[ from mere men, why? wasnt gods word enough?]

god knows the 'men' at the un , making un motions
dont affect israels autocities in the least.

jesus said by their deeds will we know them [he never clarified who 'they' would be [so jesus says love god [love neighbour, any who dosnt believe jesus is the messiah[who in issiah was rejected even by his own] thus didnt 'get' the new testimony revealing the new covenant]
Posted by one under god, Thursday, 11 December 2008 9:02:10 PM
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Yuyutsu,
Now please, which group of extremists is selling stolen land to the extremist Jewish settlers?
Posted by keith, Friday, 12 December 2008 9:16:06 AM
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If Obama is truly honest about de-Nuking all the world's such armaments, better he promotes Kissinger to first begin with Israel's Nukes, which Kissinger has always believed will eventually cause more trouble for not only Israel but the world at large -

this is especially so if Israel tries to illegally Nuke Iran.

Regards, BB, WA.
Posted by bushbred, Friday, 12 December 2008 10:44:54 AM
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Keith,

I don't understand why this question out of the blue, and why in particular you ask me, of all forum-members.

Perhaps there are such criminals, but I am not aware of anyone selling stolen land to the extremist Jewish settlers. I read that there are some Arabs who out of greed sell their properties to settlers - this way they can get 2-3 times as much, but they also risk their head if they are caught. I condemn this, but I don't see how it is related to anything I wrote.

"One under god", your view of Israelis is completely distorted. Except for a loud minority of the settlers and their supporters, common Israelis have no interest in oppressing anyone, they want peace and do not believe in or desire a Messiah (of any form or shape). The word "zionism" is still used occasionally by Israelis, but in common speach a "zionist" came to mean "good citizen"/"one who cares for his neighbours/community/environment". Nowadays, the original meaning of the word is only used by the settlers and their supporters. Most Israelis are just normal people that want to get peacefully on with their lives.

Bushbred, you make me laugh...
"to illegally Nuke Iran"
When the only other option is to be 6000 foot under, should one first get a lawyer and fill all the appropriate documents in triplicates?

BTW, I like your idea of Obama sending Kissinger to request Israel to disarm its nukes. Poor old Kissinger will roll down all the stairs and this in turn will help wean Israel from its addiction on America.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 12 December 2008 12:08:17 PM
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Yuyutsu, you make me laugh too with your political ignorance.

I am talking as a trained socio-political historian, my friend.

So it seems you are among the too many, who believe that with Iran buried out of the way there will be peace in the Middle East, and doubtless the world.

Like certain others of your ultra-right wing mates, do you all good to study a few good history books, which will inform you that those who are running Israel, are also much too much ultra-right, making one wonder if though inhumanly cruelly treated they learnt too much from the Nazis.
Posted by bushbred, Friday, 12 December 2008 1:59:37 PM
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Bushbred,

All you contributed is calling names.

I didn't claim that if Iran is nuked there will be peace - just that the people of Israel will have a greater chance to survive, whereas otherwise their very survival is very doubtful.

I don't belong to or identify with any party. I form my own views.
I didn't know I had any such "mates", but if my views happen to be classified as "ultra-right wing", then I guess I am a proud "ultra-right winger".

I care not about history or about those who run Israel - I care that the people of Israel continue to live, as well as maintain their social fabric and not become refugees or be inundated with radiation diseases. If the only means to achieve this is eliminating Iran, so be it - but at this time it is still possible to take out the Iranian nuclear capabilities without hurting the common people of Iran - later on it will become much more difficult.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 12 December 2008 7:35:10 PM
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Yuyutsu>>..your view of Israelis is completely distorted.
Except for a loud minority...,common Israelis have no interest in oppressing anyone.>>

see how the jewish law reads NO URSURY
well xtians adopted that LAW
muslims adopted it too
so do the jew[but only for jews,not goys[non-jews]

via the increase of ursury the money changers get intrest[banking was given to jews,so they could charge the goys[non-jews]intrest.using the banking system the non-goys can buy up the media[re;conrad black /rupert murdoch,in short the industry is owned by these non goys; but then they control movies as well[even the gameshows often feature one special kind of person[60 percent of the richest list is non-goy]

there is many types of nongoys[some DO believe in the messiah]but lets talk about the acts of the settlers....are not the acts of the average jew[i agree]

[as i said most simply would reject as being true what i have written,but it is historic truth]

jesus upset the money-changers[so i studied the moneychangers,this recent trouble with georgia,[the same place a vile marxist/commie/bolchovic came from[that genocided 25 million xtians]the bolchovics were non-goy

all the wars in many ways tie back to the non-goy,who finance all war's,but they are few,we have neo-con and zionist[im refereing to the zionists[not the jew],xtians also have the neo-con[hoping[expecting armogeddon]

i state none in malice[my root is of the jew too]thus i can expose those capoes who shoved their own into the ovens,the same mob who invade others lands[they dont need to buy,they just fence it in[these i call settlers]

even in the holy land all jew arnt equal[there are lesser northersn or african jews that do the lower classes work[nearly as low as a muslim ,of the total of israel two thirds is non goy[one third are muslim[and muslim are out breeding at 3 times the non goy,its only a matter of time till they yet again become a minority,then who knows,all i do know is zionists dont want that.

>>..The word"zionism"is still used occasionally by Israelis,but in common speach a"zionist"came to mean"good citizen"/"one who cares for his neighbours/community/environment".>>

thats not what it means to us goys
Posted by one under god, Friday, 12 December 2008 9:38:55 PM
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Use your historical sense, Yuyutsu, if you have any common sense.

Of course, there is also the scientific sense of reason, which is the most important because it is the one that teaches us all about balance of power.

That is exactly what Kissinger based his premise on when as Minister of State as well as a Doctor of science, he urged Richard Nixon to use his power to prevent Israel from going militarily nuclear.

Furthermore, as regards Iran, it could be said, that because Iran has not attacked another country since its Persian days, it is believed she only wants to turn Nuko, because she believes she is actually threatened not only by Israel, but also the US.

If you know your history, my friend, you should know all about America backing Iraq in its attack on Iran way back< both America and Iraq turning out very shameful losers>

Cheers< BB< WA>
Posted by bushbred, Saturday, 13 December 2008 11:35:36 AM
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Dear "one under god", you seem to be living in the past:

While there are some extremes like the ones you concentrate on, the majority of Israelis (including even some who call themselves "religious') don't give a damn about Jewish law OR about zionism in the sense that you are using.

This a classic example of misunderstanding: Israelis say they are "zionist", meaning they are good-and-caring-citizens, and you are incensed about it because you interpret the word by its old meaning. Great!

Most Israelis don't care whether one is Jewish or not according to Jewish law, but whether s/he is loyal to the state. They don't think in such archaic terms as "goy" as you do. The Druze, for example, are not Jewish, but are most respected and occupy top positions in the Israeli army and police - because they are very loyal to the state of Israel.

Bushbred,

I understand about balance of power, but with a nuclear Iran the balance would tip against Israel. The combined enemies of Israel are much stronger in conventional and chemical weapons. In that scenario, perhaps no-one will use nukes, but Israel will be gradually attacked and conquered by Arab and Iranian-backed conventional/chemical forces, knowing there will be no nuclear response. Currently it is well known that anyone using chemical weapons against Israel will find out in 5 minutes how many virgins are waiting for them in heaven. It is only Israel's nuclear detterance that keeps Israel alive. When gone, Israel is gone too. Israel simply cannot afford a nuclear Iran, especially in the hands of irrational leaders who are not afraid of dying.

Nixon did not listen to Kissinger - perhaps he should: obviously he would not succeed parting Israel from its nukes, but by trying to do so he would severe the umbilical cord tying Israel to the USA, and while tough at first, in the longer term that would have been great for Israel, who is now often beaten-down not for its own faults, but for being the punching-bag for those who want, but don't dare, to hit America directly.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 13 December 2008 10:46:03 PM
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Yuyutsu, yes, certainly your argument suits what was previously a little undefensive Israel.

But that was what Immanuel Kant's democratic Federation of Nations was all about - to protect small nations being taken over by larger ones, in fact, Kant's idea also included tyrants such as Napoleon and the later Hitler.

Both the League of Nations and the newer UN are sometimes known as based on Kantian philosophics.

But both times greed has set in with Nazism and Fascism with the League, and US\Con Futurism with the UN - which certainly has been a breakdown in global democracy.

Thus the real truth is, that what Kissinger was on about with Nixon, was that tiny Israel should have become immediately under protection from a true Kantian United Nations.

Sorry about the historicus, matey, but to be decent, reckon we could do with a lot more of it.
Posted by bushbred, Sunday, 14 December 2008 1:42:02 PM
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Yes, Bushbred there are some excellent theories around, for example:

"A dog that barks does not bite"

The question is whether the dog in front (which unfortunately had no opportunity to attend school) knows this theory.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 14 December 2008 2:06:42 PM
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SOME dogs bark at nothing ,some dogs sneak up behind people and bight them , others slink away in the darkness[all dogs arnt alike] they have many personality traits

even the one god[WHO'S own believers treat like him a dog]has so many oppisite'sides',we have israel[meaning wars with god , or fights angels] or wrestles with god]who begged twice? to be gods people [abraham? mosus? issiah ,BUT WHO IS NOT GODS 'PEOPLE'

who did god NOT GIVE THEIR{OUR}LIVES to live

[god sustaines EVERY life,what land did god NOT emerge from the deep[what land IS NOT GODS holy[wholy] land?]

this absurd arguement about'the judgmental god'is all in error[god dont judge
LIVE WITH IT[its not worth dying over]

what DEATH can be pleasing to god['i ABHORE sacrifice'[get it?]

if the jews are gods people BEGIN by serving LIFE as god serves life[till the zionists do it is clear they are SERVING satan[foresworn to kill all dust god alone can give to life]

jesus says by their deeds are they revealed
so lets think on; BY THEIR fruits

jesus said even a beast KNOWS his masters voice
by our fruits we do reveal WHO WE ARE SERVING
[lord satan or god creator]not oppisites FOR GOD HAS NO OPPISITE[he alone is all living all loving[light sustaining life;that life reveal the glory of the life GIVER]

satan rightfully refused to bow to adam

for he was created from fire[passion]true love of god, men but made from the dirt[but by our deeds we reveal if we honour the dirt or the life giver[or the fire]

obama seems a dirt and fire dude
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 14 December 2008 3:55:31 PM
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Yuyutsu, must say I am again disappointed in your historical knowledge know-how.

Kantianism is not a theory but an established scientific law, as proven when the idea of a democratic Federation of Nations
was made law as proven by first the League of Nations and later the United Nations, as I have already pointed out.

Also as proven by Kissinger's protest, Israel was actually breaking the Kantian Law when she illegally went Nuko, very much multiplying the outbreaks of Islamic terrorism affecting us right now.

I don't want to make enemies, Yuyutsu, so I ony wish more of our group would take interest in peace-keeping theories such as the one of Immanuel Kant - which incidently was - scientifically - discussed before the advent of the UN.
Posted by bushbred, Sunday, 14 December 2008 7:47:31 PM
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