This is an excellent article that has been written by a brave and wise man. He is correct in implying that these disgusting murderers do not emerge from a vaccuum but from societies that MUST know them and are either actively or passively supporting them. He is also correct in stating that these evil scum are damaging all Muslims throughout the world. I am not a Muslim and state that I now treat all Muslims with caution allied to both fear and disgust. Of course the odds are that I am being unfair but what else do you expect me to think and feel?

Mr. Goth is a small lamp of hope that more Muslims will not just condemn murderers in private (if they do even condemn them at all) but also say so in public, and, if they have reason to suspect somebody they should oppose that evil and report to the relevant police force.

It is to be hoped but, I fear, not expected, that a mass of Muslims will come out publicly to support Mr. Goth.

I agree with most of what the author is saying here. It does take a lot of guts to say such things, but what are muslims going to do when all these terrorists are doing is following the doctrines of their prophet?
How do Imams and Walis and so forth go about addressing/changing the example their prophet left them? An example for all time.

Agreed. Somebody gotta stand up and say sumfin'.

Some of the agitators on OLO can then move on and find another grievance. This one's dragged on...and on...

This is one of the more sensible pieces of writing on this subject, and he does have a number of people of like mind, around the world.

It was pleasing to hear that the Muslim community in India barred the terrorists from being buried in the Muslim cemetery in Mumbai.That is a good sign.

But there is a long way to go, as this mix of papers reveal.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/28244/sec_id/28244

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/12/enough_of_radical_islam.html

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Top-10-Reasons.htm

But it is going to be a long haul when Muslims,their Imams and scholars wont even face up to fact that there is abundant evidence to show that the Koran has a history, of which this is one version.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702431692&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

The problem is that these terrorists do chant Allahu Akbar and they do quote koranic verses - accurately. They also take the words and actions of Mohammud seriously, doing what he did and following his example.

This may explain their actions and why the terror never ends.

Muslims do speak out. Muslims do denounce the acts of terror done in the name of Islam, both in private and in public, again and again. After every attack we hear condemnations -- and nothing changes. More attacks happen and again Muslims speak out. Nothing changes; the terror never stops.

It is time for Muslims to try something different. How about condemning the hate and violence in the Quran and repudiating the actions of their prophet? (I am talking about the attacks, raids, plunder, murder, enslavement of men women and children, torture, rape of captives and abuse of women including wife beating, as narrated in Islam's own traditions). Maybe the Imams and scholars can't rescue Islam from terrorism because terror is part of Islam. Think about that. Didn't Islam's dear prophet say "I am made victorious with terror"?

Instead of outrage, try a little honesty. Give change a chance.

Kactuz

Any criticism of one religious viewpoint from another religious viewpoint is just a way of saying "You're wrong and I'm right - nyahh!" since neither side has any evidence whatsoever for their belief. This is why it has so little impact. Bin Laden is simply doing what the Pope and Rowan Williams keep telling us to do -- following the dictates of God. The bombers and gunmen KNOW that they are carrying out the explicit instructions of the Almighty. Why should they pay any attention to what the corrupt and deluded disciples of peace and tolerance try to tell them?

Only an atheist can accurately point out why ALL religious believers are wrong, and why doing what God tells you to is no substitute for rational thought and behaviour. Let us spread atheism in the realms of Islam -- from a safe distance, of course.

^speak out^

And I should listen to someone who thinks there is an invisible man living in the sky?.
Don't think so.

A very good article, thanks very much. I am wondering about this all the time. Why is there no muslim outrage when muslims kill hundreds of thousands of other muslims in Darfur? Why is there no muslim outrage when muslim suicide bombers slaughter fellow muslims in Irak and Afghanistan? Why is there no muslim outrage when the Mumbai killers shoot a complete Indian muslim family just because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? Just tell me why? But the apologists for these heinous crimes never have an answer.

Yes... well thought out and clearly spoken, and all in accordance with the prescriptions of the Qur'an. Com[politely and properly Islamic dicta. But, the operative word here is "collective." As long as Islam is led, or driven, by the Royals of the Desert, we shall see very little of anything collective beyond daily prayer and the oppression of womanhood. I refer you to the recent cancellation of the Palestinian aid shipment by Qatar. This may, in the overall picture, be but one small incident. But it is indicative of the "collective" spirit in which the Arab sees "brotherhood in Islam." Well, yesterday Qatar stood up to be counted. And today, they were counted out! A phone call was all it took. So much for gutless Arab-Muslim unity and support!

New Actor

As Bashir says:

"What benefit does it do to see Islamic scholars accusing these people of hijacking Islam and repeating ad nauseam that Islam is innocent of their actions when non-Muslims see these criminals chanting Allahu Akbar and quoting koranic verses and the Prophet’s sayings in justifying their crimes?"

Then he says:

"What is demanded of enlightened Islamic scholars is to come out of their hiding and show courage in rescuing Islam from becoming the doctrine of terrorism."

Of course....that raises the other issue of whether they will then survive the death threats.

THE PROBLEM is not the need for 'enlightened scholars, but that Islam is a religion of the book.... it is based on the Quran and Hadith and the Sunnah of Mohammad (personal history)

All the terrorists have to do is simply show that they are in character with Mohammad..and the 'enlightened scholars' then look like heretics and ninnies.

Here is exactly that taking place in London....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAq9PpCUgYU

The imam/scholar knows exactly what to say..and he is arab and knows the documents concerned.

I think the hardest issue our sentimental blokes and ladies struggle with is this.. that Islam by its foundation... does in fact promote and permit violence against non Muslims who are even 'perceived' as being 'against Islam'.

I'ts useless saying "That's your interpretation" when I've shown in the link that it is indeed THEIR intepretation. Of course that Cleric does not represent all Muslims, but what he says can be verified easily by reference to the quotations he uses.....It's not hard .. really.

What our sentimental friends want.. is for Muslims to simply 'decide' to interpret something in a way which suits and pleases them. ie... non violently. In their minds this would make them 'good muslims'....
Sure...good...to us...but to their prophet?

Melbourne's Bilal Al Rabi Mosque says it all. That man was an absolute animal (companion of Mohammad) lacking the slightest compassion ..yet they name a mosque after him?

This problem is certainly far-reaching and neccessitates a very firm and consistent action world-wide.

I remember many years ago during a visit to Vanuatu ( during the administration of Father Walter Lini), the common knowledge on the streets was the local ruling: "In Public Never Discuss Politics, Never Discuss Religion and NEVER Mess with the native women"!

This was a very sane, rational piece of advice, which if ignored would most probably result in a Green Slip ( an immediate deportation order ).

The time may have arrived where we have to implement these wise guidelines into the worlds Statutes and Laws, making it illegal to publicly discuss Politics and Religion ( allowable inside the privacy of one`s home only, with severe penalties for persons breaching these laws)!

This may seem to be somewhat reactionary to many religious and political zealots, however we MUST accept the reality of the fact that if we continue on the path we are currently persuing then we will have no option than to be involved in a modern day Crusade,...the war between Christians and Muslims.

Most of the conflicts across the planet over the last millenium have resulted from issues over religion and politics. The result has n been the extermination of millions of people, however that pales into insignificance as measured against what a modern day Crusade could bring.

We do NOT have to go down this path, but at the same time we have to accept awareness of the emerging issue and take action now before it is simply too late!

John J writes

'Only an atheist can accurately point out why ALL religious believers are wrong, and why doing what God tells you to is no substitute for rational thought and behaviour. Let us spread atheism in the realms of Islam -- from a safe distance, of course.'

Coming from the greatest murderers (atheist) of all time this is an incredibly self righteous statement. The frightening part is that many of the god deniers and god haters actually believe this crap.

Hear hear John J, and wtf are you saying runner?

It seems there is no middle way with you. One's either a religious nutter or a murderous one.

It's a pity god only tells people to kill other people instead of telling them to go jump off a cliff.

Hi Runner,

I had a dream last night in which you visited Osama Bin Laden. The conversation went something like this:

Osama: Hi, Runner. What can I do for you?

Runner: Well, Osama, we have a lot in common. We both believe that the only true morality lies in following the dictates of God.

Osama: Absolutely right, Runner. Couldn't agree with you more.

Runner: Well, God has told me to come here and ask you to stop killing people.

Osama: That's weird, because God has told me to go on killing as many people as I can in the most bloodthirsty possible way. Could one of us have the wrong God?

Runner: Maybe. How can we decide?

Osama: Well, one good way to make a decision is to rely on evidence. Do you have any objective evidence for the existence of your God?

Runner: Er...nope. Do you?

Osama: No, I've got nothing.

[Long pause]

Runner: OK, thanks, Osama. Sorry to have bothered you.

Osama: No prob, dude - drop in any time.

---

The point again, in case you missed it: ANYONE who deliberately embraces an irrational belief has absolutely no moral grounds on which to criticise any other irrational belief. You believe in following God's commands and so does Osama. Explain to me why you are right and he is wrong -- if you can.

John J

Incredibly you ask 'Explain to me why you are right and he is wrong -- if you can.'
You explain to me where your totally irrational base for morality comes from?

Where on earth does your morality for supporting the murder of the unborn come from. And don't hide behind some pseudo science crap.

I have no problem declaring that my value base comes from the Scriptures . We see nations that have adopted this biblical morality base have prospered and been freer than any other nations. Nations that have adopted communism and atheism have been among the most brutal in history. The more secular Australia has become the more violent the streets are.

I speak here as an agnostic.

I am talking mainly about "Islamists" i.e. the political/social/religious movement which has Islam in its "pure "form at its core.

This is also known as "Wahabbism", although Islamists can go under a myriad of other names, as an example "Hizb-ut-Tahrir".

British Muslims seem to be more anti-western than Muslims in other parts of Europe.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jun/23/uk.religion

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=432075&in_page_id=1770&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/nov/30/immigrationpolicy

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article682599.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1

The problem from the newspaper articles is "How does one identify who are the Islamists and who are the moderates"?

With an increasing number of Muslims in Australia, this is the type of thing we have to look forward to.

This is why I say that we in the West must be very careful about allowing large numbers of Muslims to settle here. We must also take account of the fact that generally they out-breed us.

In Germany, prior to the Second World War, there were many Germans who opposed Nazism. Many others were equivocal: while they didn’t support Hitler, they quite liked the fact that Germany was regaining its pride in itself after the humiliation of the Treaty of Versailles. Therefore they did not sufficiently oppose Hitler.

The German resistance was undermined by Britain’s policy of appeasement.

By failing to draw a clear line in the sand, Britain simply encouraged Hitler in the belief that he could get away with whatever he wanted.

I believe a very similar situation exists today with militant Islam, even to the fact that we are appeasing Islam rather than clearly defining what is acceptable and what is not. We must resist this evil cancer before it becomes too strong for us.

Otherwise, we are simply leaving a great and growing problem to be dealt with by our descendants.

Thanks to bigmal on another thread who posted the following link:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/12/enough_of_radical_islam.html

I read the post of cuphandle, and I see someone who reduces this to "a matter of opinion".
This is utter rubbish.

This, cuphandle, is a matter of fact, and those that because of moral cowardice or misguided "open-ness", try to present it as "a matter of opinion", are nothing more or less than traitors to the western democratic freedoms that we ALL benefit from -yes even the Muslims.

What you are saying, cuphandle, is "Let's not talk about it and it will go away". Sorry mate, unpalatable as it may seem, it won't work!

The only chance we have got is to stick together to uphold the values of the West, which have resulted in the greatest good to the most people of any time in history.

We need to be staunch and strong, for we face an implacable and evil enemy in Islam.

At the same time, we would also be protecting a large number of moderate Muslims, whose fate will be less than enviable when it comes to the crunch.

Froggie....those links were quite scarey.....

The survey results also indicated areas for great concern.

For me the key in categorizing all this is for a better understanding of 'what' fundamental Islam is.

All of those links, and the Muslim attitudes exposed in them, can only be understood by knowing the true nature of Islam.

For example.. the survey (Guardian) which showed

"88% want to see schools and workplaces in Britain accommodating Muslim prayer times as part of their normal working day."

NO ...accomodation at ALL must be granted to Islam/Muslims/Jews/Christians by a secular government. The only requirement of a secular government which religions can rightly gripe about is when they are ordered by law to deny their faith.

UNNNNNfortunately... for those who's faith involves the idea of a STATE... ANYthing which contravenes their 'strict religious practice' will be seen as the government trying to make them deny their faith.

From this... the 'victimhood' syndrome develops...and if the religions also contains commands to fight those who don't share it's views..then we have embryonic sedition.

A Christian does not 'HAVE' to pray any times during a day... there is no ritual associated with prayer.
We don't HAVE to avoid hanlding alchohol, or touching dogs, or any other 'ritual' religious observance. So..Christians can accomodate secular law very easily.

There are numerous examples (google the issue) where Muslim shop assistants are refusing to:-

-Handle/sell Bibles
-Handle/sell Alchohol
-Accomodate guide dogs

etc....

The idiotic pc crowd who employ them are usually accomodating this.
In one case the "refusal to handle" was complained over..and the store responded "It is against the law to discriminate on the basis of religion" GOOOOOD GRIEF.. The Muslim IS discriminating.. and the store seems to think that to enforce fairness is in fact discrimination based on religion? ...

The only reason the store would say that is LACK OF UNDERSTANDING about the law, Islam and our own societal responsibilities

It is sad to see that there are so many swept up in the fear-of-Islam disease. To me, fear of an idea, or a concept, is irrational. And religion is only that: a mental construct.

Froggie has clearly succumbed, and tries to draw parallels between Islam and Nazi Germany. A common enough strategy these days amongst the fearful, but one that doesn't hold water.

Nazism created the fighting force that enabled Germany to challenge the European status quo. It was the armed forces that invaded Poland, not a political ideal. It was the 4,722,000 members of the 1939 Wehrmacht, and the total of 17,893,200 that served between 1939 and 1945.

Also, may I remind you, they were defeated.

Islam, on the other hand, has produced... what?

Small bands of terrorists.

And - it would appear - a great deal of fear.

Most people consider fear of the unknown to have far more impact on the human psyche than fear of a tangible, present reality. This is the phenomenon we see here.

Which is also the reason why I try to point out whenever I can that soap-box rabble rousing, of the "mozzies are coming, hide, hide, hide" variety do pointless, unnecessary harm.

Another small point.

When quoting two-and-a-half year-old articles, it helps if you step back a moment from the journalism, and just read the words.

"A significant majority viewed western populations as selfish, arrogant, greedy and immoral."

I would venture to suggest that the same result would occur if you asked a group of Christians.

Disagree? Just ask runner. Or Gibo.

Good point Pericles.

I was on a train recently with a friend when a Muslim lady wearing a veil sat down a few seats away. "Reckon she's got a bomb or something? Should we move carriages?" my friend asked. Little Johnny would've loved him.

Those who consider themselves responsible for our safety cite all the possible catastrophes that might arise from a terrorist act. Once we start devising all the possible responses the only logical course of action is to prepare for the most extreme possibility – anything less would be dereliction of duty of care.

It is far easier to spread fear than it is to spread goodwill, even when the odds of something bad happen are demonstrably minimal. Poly drank the Kool-aid long ago and has been trying to share it around ever since.

Scenarios can only become more and more tragic and it’s a race to the bottom from there. Whoever dissents simply doesn’t appreciate the clear and immediate threat posed by musl, ah, extremists.

I almost forgot this classic. Thank you for this, Froggie.

>>The only chance we have got is to stick together to uphold the values of the West, which have resulted in the greatest good to the most people of any time in history.<<

Let's just savour that for a moment.

I know that the twentieth century is but a dim and distant memory, Froggie. But there are more than a few souls who, if they could hear you, would utter a hollow laugh, followed by a fairly pungent oath.

The forty million who died between 1914 and 1918, thanks to some folk "upholding the values of the West" might just have an argument with you, I suspect.

Then there were the - oh yes - seventy million who were victims of the same upholding of Western values between 1939 and 1945.

I've probably missed a few million here and there, but hey, when "upholding the values of the West" is at stake, who's counting?

Or here's a thing. Let's go back another century or so.

Let's take a passing glance at how "the values of the West" single-handedly destroyed the economy of India.

http://www.mapsofindia.com/india-economy.html

"Before the advent of East India Company, each village in India was a self sufficient entity. Each village was economically independent as all the economic needs were fulfilled with in the village.

Then came the phase of Colonization. The arrival of East India Company in India ruined the Indian economy. There was a two-way depletion of resources. British used to buy raw materials from India at cheaper rates and finished goods were sold at higher than normal price in Indian markets. During this phase India's share of world income declined from 22.3% in 1700 AD to 3.8% in 1952."

That will do for starters, I think.

"The greatest good", Froggie?

"to the most people of any time in history", Froggie?

Whatever it is you're smoking, I have a friend who'd be more than interested in a toke or two.

Bennie:

"It is far easier to spread fear than it is to spread goodwill,.. Poly drank the Kool-aid long ago and has been trying to share it around ever since."

Pericles:

"Which is also the reason why I try to point out that soap-box rabble rousing, of the "mozzies are coming, hide, hide, hide" variety do pointless, unnecessary harm."

The resemblance those silly words (in both cases) have to the general content of my posts is purely coincidental, but to be honest, they seem to be coming from some twilightzone.

IF....I wanted to stir up,

FEAR....

I'd be arcing up about "Muslims" having vengeful attitudes... how "Muslims" are out to get us.. how "Muslims" 'must' (to quote Pericles)
follow surah 9 against all non Muslims.

HATE...I'd be ranting on about the grizzly details of how "Muslims" do this or that atrocity and listing large numbers of them repeatedly.

BUT....if I wanted to avoid such conditions in Australia where knee jerk/redneck reactions rule the day...along with the associated civil strife/violence that accompanies such emotions....

Then I'd be explaining the essential core nature of Islam as a religion.. drawing contrasts between it and our own predominant faith (albeit mostly nominal/cultural) and demonstrating how over time, the core values of that religion will cause serious social/political problems for Australia.

My hope would be, that political leaders will take the hint and limit the expansion of Islamic infrastructure (such as schools, mosques) without which Islam cannot become strong.

I'd also enforce a strict naming code for mosques which are permitted, and the first one I'd hammer is the Bilal Bin Rabah mosque in Newport.

The sensible solution for the growth of hideous ideologies is political action and public information.

Pericles is definitely in the twighlight zone with his "how dare froggie compare 'May Allah destroy the Jews and Christians' idea with the Nazi's 'Jews are sub human and the source of our problems'"

No..froggie didn't use those words, but that's what he mean't.

Pericles is in blissful denial.

But then..they say 'ignorance is bliss' right ? :)

While there are many 'moderate' muslims, there also many that are not so moderate. Have a look at what happened after the Danish cartoons were published. Over 100 killed and churchs burned. Even women marched in London with placards saying death to those who critisize islam. The best poster was the one saying "Death to those who claim Islam is violent"

The simple fact of the matter is that the moderates are too scared to take on those with more radical views. It has been shown that the extremes are quite capable of intimidating and even killing muslim moderates to keep them in line.

Mr Periwinkle

I decided to change your name, because you are so far removed from your namesake, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pericles
that to call you by that name would be a gross insult to the ancient Greek champion of democracy and freedom.

Quite amazing, Mr Periwinkle, that you should so greatly distort history in order to lend support to an alien totalitarian and fascist movement otherwise known as a religion called Islam.

It would be interesting to see just how sanguine Periwinkle would be if he were unarmed and suddenly faced with a heavily armed young terrorist who proceeded to shoot him to death.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/tributes-flow-for-australians-killed-in-mumbai-terror-attack-20081128-6msu.html

I guess you won’t recognise the danger until it is you or a member of your family in the firing line. Or maybe not even then.

We’ll see who is right in the long run, but don’t forget the people you will consign to a nasty death, because of your head in the sand attitude.

Or should we all just roll over and let the Islamists make Dhimmis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

of us?

Another thing: The Muslims are very fond of telling us how many there are of them- the usual figure bandied about is 1.2 billion. If only 5% become militants, then we shall have to deal with 60 million of them. The rest will sit supine, letting the Islamists do the heavy lifting.

My point is that instead of following a policy of appeasement, which will only encourage the Islamists to demand more and more concessions, we should now let them know that we will accept no more nonsense from them.

Cowards and bullies that they are, they will soon slink back into their shells, like a Periwinkle perhaps.

Islam and Fascism

I ask all on this forum to look at this You tube video, and then understand why I am raising the alarm about Islam. It is clear that there are many parallels between Islam and Nazism, and the situation just before the Second World war and today.
I am not religious and my objection to Islam is not founded in religious terms.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=gK2ukVCoWUU&NR=1

I do not expect Periwinkle or C J Morgan will agree with me, but these people have their head in the sand, just like the appeaser Neville Chamberlain.

Froggie,
I'd like to know where you got that 5% figure for militant Muslims from.
If you're correct, there must be thousands of them right here in Australia right now, but where are they?

I suggest looking under your bed would be a good place to start.

Polycarp,
Who did you obsessively hate before Muslims appeared?
Was it the Communists, and before them the Catholics, the Irish, the Blacks, the Jews, the Italians/Greeks/Wogs, the Yellow Peril?

More importantly, who is next on your list after this particular battle has been won?

Or is this indeed, The "Big One"?