Well said, Bronwyn. Why do people insist on making simple issues complex?
I was under the impression all three 'people of the book' (Jews, Christians and Muslims) all have the same 10 commandments, one of which is "thou shalt not kill".
If killing is wrong, then it is always wrong.
We have supposedly God fearing, Christian leaders like Rudd, Bush, etc., who believe they have greater authority than their God.
Thou shalt not kill, unless your leader says you can, and then only if you wear this particular clothing and you only kill other people who aren't wearing this particular clothing; or if the victim has done something wrong, and the leader says it's okay to kill this particular person...
Howard (with certain previous posters) was most hypocritical of all. Australia should not have the death penalty because we're civilized. But Indonesia should have the death penalty, particularly where the killing of Australians is concerned, because...?

Greg Barns says:

"But when it comes to his position on the death penalty for the three Bali bombers, Mr Rudd, is so far at least, looking decidedly unprincipled."

PRINCIPLES? hah! It should be noted that Greg Barns was also on the DEFENSE team which tried to get the now convicted Melbourne Terrorists OFF scott free!

Now he is whining also about OTHERS principles and is defending the harsh and just treatment of self confessed murderers of hundreds?

Indonesia is sovereign. Australia (nor Barns dream of a One World socialist utopia) does not run the show there.

Let's look at the evidence.

1/ BARNS was on the defense team of some of the Melbourne Terrorism supsects some of whom are now convicted terrorists who apparently planned to murder as many of us as they could.

2/ BARNS now criticizes the punishment of other convicted terrorists who DID murder as many of us as they could.

3/ BARNS also is reported to have become rather hysterical in his support of Henson perusing young children at schools (comment in Crikey)

What does this tell us about BARNS?

Good post polycarp.Perhaps Greg should have had a title,"My Jellybacked Lawyer Roots" In true lawyer fashion,he plays both sides for his own advantage.

not sure what it tells us about barns, but polycarp's irrelevant slagging tells us polycarp cares nothing for reasoned debate.

Poor Kevvie-from-Qld, or Kevin O'Heaven as some know him.

He soooo wants to be seen to be a good Christian by all the exHoward voters that he has painted himself into a corner here.

When the next dunderhead Aussie citizen is arrested for carrying heroin somewhere in 'Asia' and sent to the gallows how empty will DFATs pleas for clemency sound when no word is being said about these nutters who are about to be shot?

Of course Kevin O'Heaven cannot interfere in Indonesian affairs... the IR system doesn't allow for it, but there is the UN and all its mechanisms, and just 'being a Christian' should be enough to have Australia's Tony Abbott, Christopher Pyne, George Pell, Brothers Jensen, Shelton and Wallace from the Australian Christian Lobby and even that great Christian, John Howard, out there suggesting the execution is put off.

They won't of course... because very few people are Christian; least of all those who proclaim their Faith the loudest

The Blue Cross

"..just 'being a Christian' should be enough to have Australia's Tony Abbott, Christopher Pyne, George Pell, Brothers Jensen, Shelton and Wallace from the Australian Christian Lobby and even that great Christian, John Howard, out there suggesting the execution is put off. They won't of course... because very few people are Christian; least of all those who proclaim their Faith the loudest."

Astute observation and one with which I tend to agree.

Foxy

I was going to let this slide, but in light of Blue Cross's statement, I've decided to take it up with you after all!

I grew up firm in the knowledge, as learnt from the Christianity I saw practised around me at the time, that Christian belief encompassed the notion of forgiveness. I have since come to the view though, that for many Christians today, forgiveness starts and ends with their God forgiving them. It doesn't seem to be part of their Christian belief that they should practise that same art of forgiveness themselves, or if they do, they do it very selectively. Some people, according to them, are just unworthy of forgiveness.

Now, Foxy, I would never have put you in this camp. But I find your stance here on capital punishment very much at odds with what I understand a true Christian response should be, and also very much in conflict with an earlier statement of yours on another thread -

"What I am trying to do is remind you (Polycarp) that Christianity believes in forgiveness, even of an enemy." (From the 'Beliefs and Behaviour' thread)