Rudd might still think that the death penalty is wrong “…in all circumstances and in all jurisdictions”. That is his opinion, and he has some say in the matter in Australia. But, not in other jurisdictions; so this is no point in him saying any more or trying to influence the Indonesians.

I suggest that he would be very, very stupid if he did try to intervene in the well-deserved executions of Bali bombers. Any PM who did try to anything at all to save the murderous animals who slaughtered 88 Australians would not survive the ire of the electorate.

The “principled moral position” referred to by Barns concerns his own warped and well known lack of concern for victims. The most recent example of his siding with the bad guys was his petulant outburst about the ‘human rights’ of recently convicted terror planners here.
The rubbish of Julian McMahon’s that he quotes: ““executing the Bali bombers we are giving them what they want - martyrdom, glory and hero-status. Instead, the better deterrent, the more effective punishment, the thing they don’t want, is life imprisonment”, has now worn see-through thin.

The Bali bombers don’t want martyrdom; they want their lives, and they have now run out of appeals proving that they are not interested in martyrdom. Barns, McMahon and others of their kind totally ignore the fact that these cowardly little creeps have been fighting for life, not martyrdom!

And, if McMahon believes that Rudd would win respect in our region, as Barns claims he said, by sticking his nose into the affairs of other countries on the death penalty, he is as barking mad.
The more terrorists we put to death, the fewer there will be.

Martyrdom is too fine a label to put on unhinged mass murderers. It has no meaning to them

Mr Right has made some very pertinent/valid points in your response to Greg’s article.
Rudd can have any personal opinion he wants (I agree with him on this issue) but here he is representing Australia. As such he has to take a longer view Indonesia is a sovereign nation and as no Australians lives/interests are at stake he needs to be cautious.

I’m sure Greg would know that the Indonesian hierarchy are well aware of Rudd’s opinions and appreciate his dilemma and his silence in this “Indonesian internal affair” (they’re not stupid or
ill-ilformed.

I’m not sure I accept the point that Rudd should pander to the survivor’s natural desire for revenge. I can’t see that killing the bombers is justice nor can I see that it resolves anything more than a life in jail.

Indonesia would I have no doubt have their own ‘bigger’ reasons for dispensing this type of justice. Keep in mind also we are dealing with a:
- Different Country
- Different Religions
- Different Cultures
- Different Ethnicities
- Different mind sets (moral imperatives) and therefore views of the world.
- Internal Security issues. The hierarchy undoubtedly believe they can’t have individuals running around bombing to further their points of view.
- Different Circumstances With 200million people, rampant poverty etc they can’t AFFORD this type of internal event particularly when it may affect the much needed foreign exchange. To a country like Indonesia foreign exchange is a matter of life and death for many families.
- One of the logical issues with any sort of mass aggregation is the tyranny of sheer numbers i.e. a ethnic etc group of 2 million people is still only 1% of the population…That’s a lot of potential loose cannons.
The argument about false messages is dubious one in this context.
(NB. I am NOT making excuses only emphasising that we aren’t facing the same circumstances they are and as such don’t really understand them or their problems).
Rudd with his NATIONAL responsibilities has to tread careful and be selective on issues he takes up on OUR BEHALF.

The central issue here as I see it is not the right or wrong pertaining to the death penalty. The real issue is the extent to which our representatives interfere with or comment on the affairs of other nations. The death penalty is a remnant of more barbaric times that thankfully have passed into history in this country, but is still very much on the agenda elesewhere - the USA springs to mind. If Mr rudd is expected to protest the legally sanctioned death penalty for the reprehensible (and obviously insane) Bali bombers, why stop there? The state of Texas for example executes about one person every three weeks - whilst he was governor of that state George Bush signed a great many death warrants. Is Kevin Rudd expected to comment on that as well?
Australia's position on the death penalty is well known - leave it at that. The Iraq disaster provides sufficient example of the possible penalty for interfering in other countries and cultures.

I am concerned that our Prime Minister
is expressing a private opinion so publicly
on such a controversial matter as the
Death Penalty.

The Bali bombings were a premeditated crime.
One in which the offenders did not expect to
get caught or punished. They still don't,
according to the appeals that have been put
in place on their behalf - by their lawyers.

They clearly don't see themselves as "willing
to die" for their cause. They are however quite
willing to kill others for it.

Yet, they were caught and tried in their
own courts. They were found guilty, and were sentenced
to death under their own system of justice.

It does appear however, that their courts have
allowed an elaborate appeals system which suggests
that these convicted murderers will never be executed.

However, our Prime Minister should let
their system of justice prevail. He should keep his
personal views to himself.

We all suffer the death penality at some stage in our lives.Some people through their actions just deserve to bring it on prematurely.If there are no serious consequences for behaviour that threatens the destruction of our civilisation,then we will all disappear up our own fundamental orifices.

This philosophy should include the likes of George Bush,and the CEOs that brought on the sub-prime mortage debacle.

Excellent article, Greg. I agree with every point you've made, and must say I'm somewhat surprised at some of the previous responses.

The death penalty is wrong whatever the circumstances. Kevin Rudd, as the leader of, supposedly, a progressive party and, supposedly, an advanced and civilised nation, should be speaking out against the barbaric practice of state-sanctioned revenge killing at every chance, regardless of whose toes he might tread on in the process. To do otherwise, is gutless and wrong, especially in the light of his earlier statements, when it suited him politically to be seen as a man of principle.

GYM-FISH

"Australia's position on the death penalty is well known - leave it at that."

'Leaving it at that' as you say is a spineless response. If leaders of conviction are to effect change on serious human rights issues, they need to restate their position firmly and calmly at every opportunity. To remain silent, if your position is well known, is to be seen as weak and acquiescent. And more importantly, it passes up an opportunity to further the cause and move another step closer to bringing about change.

"The Iraq disaster provides sufficient example of the possible penalty for interfering in other countries and cultures."

This comparison is totally invalid. Speaking up against a wrong is very different to illegally invading another country.

examinator

"One of the logical issues with any sort of mass aggregation is the tyranny of sheer numbers i.e. a ethnic etc group of 2 million people is still only 1% of the population…That’s a lot of potential loose cannons."

Yes, from a purely pragmatic point of view, that is a lot of loose cannons, and they will become mightily unstuck if this planned execution is carried out. A great percentage of Indonesians are Muslim, and many of these are disaffected if not extremist. Not only will this action incite their anger, it will give them three instant martyrs to further promote the cause of radical extremism.

Rudd's failure to speak up is lacking in judgement from both a humanist and a regional security viewpoint.

Well said, Bronwyn. Why do people insist on making simple issues complex?
I was under the impression all three 'people of the book' (Jews, Christians and Muslims) all have the same 10 commandments, one of which is "thou shalt not kill".
If killing is wrong, then it is always wrong.
We have supposedly God fearing, Christian leaders like Rudd, Bush, etc., who believe they have greater authority than their God.
Thou shalt not kill, unless your leader says you can, and then only if you wear this particular clothing and you only kill other people who aren't wearing this particular clothing; or if the victim has done something wrong, and the leader says it's okay to kill this particular person...
Howard (with certain previous posters) was most hypocritical of all. Australia should not have the death penalty because we're civilized. But Indonesia should have the death penalty, particularly where the killing of Australians is concerned, because...?

Greg Barns says:

"But when it comes to his position on the death penalty for the three Bali bombers, Mr Rudd, is so far at least, looking decidedly unprincipled."

PRINCIPLES? hah! It should be noted that Greg Barns was also on the DEFENSE team which tried to get the now convicted Melbourne Terrorists OFF scott free!

Now he is whining also about OTHERS principles and is defending the harsh and just treatment of self confessed murderers of hundreds?

Indonesia is sovereign. Australia (nor Barns dream of a One World socialist utopia) does not run the show there.

Let's look at the evidence.

1/ BARNS was on the defense team of some of the Melbourne Terrorism supsects some of whom are now convicted terrorists who apparently planned to murder as many of us as they could.

2/ BARNS now criticizes the punishment of other convicted terrorists who DID murder as many of us as they could.

3/ BARNS also is reported to have become rather hysterical in his support of Henson perusing young children at schools (comment in Crikey)

What does this tell us about BARNS?

Good post polycarp.Perhaps Greg should have had a title,"My Jellybacked Lawyer Roots" In true lawyer fashion,he plays both sides for his own advantage.

not sure what it tells us about barns, but polycarp's irrelevant slagging tells us polycarp cares nothing for reasoned debate.

Poor Kevvie-from-Qld, or Kevin O'Heaven as some know him.

He soooo wants to be seen to be a good Christian by all the exHoward voters that he has painted himself into a corner here.

When the next dunderhead Aussie citizen is arrested for carrying heroin somewhere in 'Asia' and sent to the gallows how empty will DFATs pleas for clemency sound when no word is being said about these nutters who are about to be shot?

Of course Kevin O'Heaven cannot interfere in Indonesian affairs... the IR system doesn't allow for it, but there is the UN and all its mechanisms, and just 'being a Christian' should be enough to have Australia's Tony Abbott, Christopher Pyne, George Pell, Brothers Jensen, Shelton and Wallace from the Australian Christian Lobby and even that great Christian, John Howard, out there suggesting the execution is put off.

They won't of course... because very few people are Christian; least of all those who proclaim their Faith the loudest

The Blue Cross

"..just 'being a Christian' should be enough to have Australia's Tony Abbott, Christopher Pyne, George Pell, Brothers Jensen, Shelton and Wallace from the Australian Christian Lobby and even that great Christian, John Howard, out there suggesting the execution is put off. They won't of course... because very few people are Christian; least of all those who proclaim their Faith the loudest."

Astute observation and one with which I tend to agree.

Foxy

I was going to let this slide, but in light of Blue Cross's statement, I've decided to take it up with you after all!

I grew up firm in the knowledge, as learnt from the Christianity I saw practised around me at the time, that Christian belief encompassed the notion of forgiveness. I have since come to the view though, that for many Christians today, forgiveness starts and ends with their God forgiving them. It doesn't seem to be part of their Christian belief that they should practise that same art of forgiveness themselves, or if they do, they do it very selectively. Some people, according to them, are just unworthy of forgiveness.

Now, Foxy, I would never have put you in this camp. But I find your stance here on capital punishment very much at odds with what I understand a true Christian response should be, and also very much in conflict with an earlier statement of yours on another thread -

"What I am trying to do is remind you (Polycarp) that Christianity believes in forgiveness, even of an enemy." (From the 'Beliefs and Behaviour' thread)

Foxy (Continued)

Now, Foxy, I realise you haven't stated as such that these men should die. Your statement, however, that the Prime Minister should remain silent and do nothing to prevent them from being executed, in my book, amounts to much the same thing. Good people remaining silent and all that, which I would have thought is another maxim you would usually like to live up to.

I know I shouldn't be picking on you for this one small fault, when I have so many and you have so few, dear Foxy, but I must admit I find your position here somewhat out of sync with your usual responses.

Polycarp

Now I didn't think I would ever do this, and believe me I am very loathe to, but I am going to quote the bible! It seems to me that these 'selective' Christians, of which you MOST certainly are one, might be unaware of this particular verse.

"If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matthew 6:14-15

Now, for myself and I'm sure many other atheists, I try to practice forgiveness because I consider it the right thing to do and also the way I would like to be treated myself. If I was a Christian like you however, and worried about that hell and brimstone in the 'life' hereafter, I would start taking notice of these particular words from the good book, as that place in heaven, you thought you had cornered, mightn’t be quite so secure after all!

If you want your sins forgiven, Polycarp, you first have to forgive others – ALL others, not just the ones YOU deem worthy. It’s written loudly and clearly in the book you live from. No wriggling off the hook on this one, Poly!

So Rudd is a fake Christian?
Shock, horror!

he is a modern leader
with troops overseas
killing innocent civilians
(inadvertently but inevitably)

he runs a system
that just gave huge wage increases
to already wealthy public servants
while giving absolutely nothing
to people with disabilities
who are already living below
the poverty line

that such a leader
should turn out to be
not truly Christian
genuinely takes me by surprise
i think i need a glass of water