Graham Y wrote:

Early Christians also thought they were living in another time when the earth was to be destroyed because of the corruption of creation, and that after this event Christ would return in glory. This is intrinsic to the concept of original sin.

Dear Graham,

I think you are right, and that might explain why original sin is not a Jewish concept.

Jews do not have the idea that creation is corrupt.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The world is good. The idea that creation has been corrupted is more Platonism or a similar idea current in the classical world. It is not Jewish.

Thomas à Kempis wrote “The Imitation of Christ” five hundred years, but it expresses an idea that I think was in Christianity from its early beginnings. A Christian should imitate Christ. Since Christ was perfection such an attempt is bound to fail, and humans need to deal with their lack of perfectibility.

However, the idea that humans can be perfected is a dangerous one and has caused great harm.

Judaism has no saints or divine role models. Even Moses was flawed. He was punished for a fit of temper by not being allowed to enter the Promised Land.

Reb Zosya, a Hassid said, “When I stand before the Almighty he will not ask, “Why are you not like Moses?” but “Why are you not like Zosya?”

In other words don’t try to imitate God or any other model just use your capabilities to the best of your ability. It is unreasonable to think one can be perfected.

With the idea that Jesus was God incarnate rather than an extraordinary human Christianity became completely separate from Judaism.

The Christian statement, “We are all sinners.” carries the idea of original sin. Judaism contends we all contain a yetzer ha ra, a spirit of evil and a yetzer ha tov, a spirit of good. We are born free of sin, and the way we live our life determines what we are.

Polycarp wrote:

“I hardly think Paul 'owes' anything to Plato nor had any need to use his ideas.”

How do you know what Paul knew or what his influences were? Why shouldn’t an educated man use the ideas that were around him at the time? Maybe some don’t need to look outside their little box. As an intelligent questioning man I think Paul would have almost certainly used what was available. An educated intelligent Jew in that time and place would be aware of Greek philosophy. Whether Paul invented it or got it from some place original sin is a very un-Jewish idea. The idea that we are conceived in sin is in a way a denial of God to Jews. The Jewish belief is that God has put on earth food, sex and other good things. In rejection of them one is denying God since he has put these good things on earth for humans. Asceticism is found in many religions. It is almost non-existent in Judaism.

I think you make statements on the basis of your belief rather than having any evidence that would support your statement.

Mr/s under one god
Hey there 'ol buddy,
I think if you read the label on the bottle, the doctor would have insisted that you take at least one pill every day or the problem will return.

The problem has returned.

User Details : Priscillian

[quote]
» 23/10/2008 4:24:59 PM I agree Gibbo, for many weeks now I have been challenging people
[/quote]
gee thats supprising we have you with an adjenda [again]
so you are unable to rebut the words so insult the poster
can you stay ON TOPIC
and dis your insults

but it seems your form
[quote]
» 22/10/2008 11:32:54 AM David F Finally, somebody recognises me. Yes, they did burn me at the stake for heresy bu.....
..» 15/09/2008 6:04:36 PM I disagree with you Peter. I don't think A J was being abusive or ranting. He is maybe ver.....
» 15/09/2008 10:53:49 AM Dan, This time your crimes against logic are:- * Non sequitur - "it does not follow&.....
» 14/09/2008 5:30:01 PM Dan, This time you have used fallacy number 2. (i.e Argument from Authority) Common falla.....
» 13/09/2008 12:18:54 AM Dan, I haven't got too much to say about your post because I think we can all see where yo.....
[/quote]
yes we can all see where you are going .. pisscapalian the side affects from your drug usage are apparent ..
but hey its your problem
why do drunks allways insult 'others' about their drug use
while blind to their own igno-rants.

This thread seems to have deteriorated into a slanging match. And perhaps that is the lesson - just as Gulliver was amazed that people would go to war over which end of the egg to open so it never fails to astonish me how quickly a discussion that even has the whiff of religion will likewise end up as a fight to the death.
Evil whatever its origins appears to be part of the human condition and it would seem that any sensible arrangements for people living together will need to take that into acount. Whether it is two neighbours having a spat about something that, would seem to us bystandards as very trivial, or whether it is on line correspondents seeking to score points about issues that are probably too complex to be discussed in a mere 300 words. In both cases one needs to take precautions that it does not get out of hand.
In looking at the various discussions in the Forum I am constantly amazed at the ingenuity that people show to ensure that they obey the letter of etiquette whilst flouting the spirit of that same etiquette.
By all means let there be robust debate but I wonder how many people hesitate to contribute lest they too be subjected to abuse.

Of course people will argue that this is not evil but the way we handle disagreements can be fertile ground for the development of evil.

Mr/s one under god

Look 'ol buddy, good 'ol boy,
Runner already said this about me:- ".......you can murder the unborn and somehow justify it. It is also obvious that you can a justify every evil deed by employing a few Phd students to write a paper confirming your dogmas. Just look at the cronies who leapt to the defence of an artist exploiting young kids recently by photographing them nude"

So in one thread I have been called:- a murderer, an academic (that really really hurt), dogmatic, child exploiter, drug addict, drunk, having an adjenda(sic),a ranter etc. etc.. Previously I have been accused of having no morals or ethical basis for my life.
So, good 'ol buddy, your childish and often illiterate taunts have little effect on me and, in any case, shouldn't a Christian like you behave a little more in line with the teachings of Jesus..the god of love? How about a little cheek turning?

BAYGON, Of course everything you say is quite correct and I should stop calling people morons, ignorant and deluded even though they provide good evidence that these statements are true.
I did bring the topic of flaming on this thread up with the Online Opinion people but they have no trouble with people being called murderers etc. I just got a little carried away with my new found sense of political incorrectness.
Thank you for pointing out my excesses, I will try and improve my behaviour in the future.