Feminist may not be a dirty word, but some or alot of the people associated with that word are much less than desirable human beings.

Whenever I hear the words, feminism and equality, I cannot help but associate these words with George Orwells classic "Animal Farm".

Was Feminism Necessary?
http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/09/14/sarah-palin-feminism-oped-cx_hm_0915mansfield.html

A Gentleman Responds
http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/09/23/feminism-radical-eaves-oped-cx_hm_0924mansfield.html?partner=moreover

The point is just as there are many types of Feminism, there are many different points of view, some pov's can be less biased than others.

While feminist seem to think that they can challange the socalled Patriarchy unhindered, these same feminist take any challange to feminism as a personal insult and with great indignation.

I guess that is their idea of equality, they talk and express their ideas and opinions, and anyone who wishes to challange them better shut up.

James, there is an element of truth in that but it misses some of the dynamic.

"I guess that is their idea of equality, they talk and express their ideas and opinions, and anyone who wishes to challange them better shut up."

I was thinking of the discussion I've had on another thread re Farrel and some of my history with posters such as SJF. We manage to annoy each other at times, exchange harsh words at times and misunderstand one another often. Occasionally the suggestion is made that I should give up on my hobby horses - maybe thats being told that I'd better shut up but maybe not.

For the most part I find those discussions worthwhile. Where others seem to routinely hit conflict I'm often able to have what to me seem interesting discussions even when there is disagreement.

Another discussion which comes to mind is the one with Pynchme. I seem to be having a polite discussion (from both sides) while others are in a fight over the same idea's. That would suggest that the conflicts are not about Pynchme's ability to cope with disagreement.

All to often I see broadscale attacks on feminism which are bound to annoy feminists where a discussion of a particular issue may not. Most of the feminists are quite capable of discussing issues but understandably don't like to see the whole thing dissed.

We do need to take care not to ignore our own contributions to the tone of debate and just assume that it's the other side.

R0bert

Polly:

""You can call me names but that can never change who I am."

Fraccy.. combativeness is not the solution."

This comment from a man who only values women who 'know their place'.

Confidence and self esteem are qualities that develop in a truly egalitarian society, and anachronisms like yourself are threatened by the very idea of capable self-determining women. Hence your claim of "combativeness" applied to someone who merely pointed out that insults will not deter women from contributing equally in this world by whatever means they choose; be it as homecarers, business or politics.

Fractelle

You mention choice and being a home carer (among other things). I'd be interested in exploring this, because I think this idea of choosing to be at home actually contributes to the stereotype of women as having a natural place which is not in the workplace, politics or business but rather only in the home.

Anti-woman propaganda makes much of this "choice" yet it seems to me it is societally determined ( for example through constant images of women as homemakers, carers etc) in the interests of the economic elite (of whatever gender) to have women at home to raise children at no cost to business.

It also denies women the liberation of work.

Passy, interesting question. I hope I've understood what you are raising with Fractelle properly.

Can I put a question (or questions) to you?

How do you see those dynamics played out when it's men who choose to be the prime carers, stay at home parents? I gather some men do feel threatened by others who do that - perhaps because it weakens the stereotypes which they are comfortable with. I gather mothers wanting to work (in paid employment) have at times faced pressure from those prefering the old roles (both men and women).

I love the idea that feminists feel they have the freedom to make a choice just as I'm loving the changes in recent years that are making prime care by men more accepted.

My perspective is that we need to be opening up the sense (and reality) of choice for men and women on these issues rather than switching the direction of the pressure for a new stereotype. I see the difference between breaking down an old stereotype and creating a new one but I don't see how limiting choices is a good way to do that.

R0bert

"In the act of calling ourselves feminists we are expressing solidarity (not necessarily agreement) with others who share our core values. We're also showing respect to the many women who've championed those values for more than 100 years. Being mindful of their legacy helps us avoid repeating mistakes, but it is also our best defence against feminism's detractors propagating even more false assumptions, clichés and distortions."

Four excellent reasons for all women to at least acknowledge and retain some pride in their feminist heritage, even though they might not personally consider themselves an activist in any sense.

I don't think it's surprising that young women have tended to disassociate themselves from feminism. When young, it's very natural to feel confident about the choices stretching out in front of you and to be full of optimism at being able to make them work to your advantage. It often takes a little more life experience, and the realisation that the biological clock is ticking away and that having it all is not as easy as it once appeared, that the reality of the feminist struggle is truly understood and appreciated.

Besides which, I don’t think young people today are generally as politically aware or as interested in collective activism as they have been in earlier decades. Many don't have a good sense of history either. It's not easy to appreciate the gains which have been won for you, if you have little understanding of where we've come from and the long-fought struggle involved to achieve each small win.