Feminism has often been a champion of abortion. It is amazing how many women go back to their natural instincts when they have a young baby that belongs to them.

Country Gal

They would be worse off pairing with metros who will not perform traditional men's nor women's work around the home.

Women should own up to their role as mothers in raising young men who do not help around the home. We cannot blame society and the government (I know you are not doing that) for everything.

As a lesson, just watch how women exclude boys from nursing and playing with babies and infants, yet I have met very few boys who don't want to get in there and enjoy the experience. Change doesn't have to be marked with the public display of "Men OUGHT to do this too" - all that is required is for women to treat them practically and normally. However there is a lot of needless confusion about what is normal, especially where women have allowed feminists to do their talking for them.

Really there is no need to wonder how one's children will be acting in ten years time or what choices they will make because all one has to do is look at ourselves as models for their behaviour. To take an example, all in our house pitch in and help in the kitchen and it hums because it was deliberately laid out to be a centre of interaction and socialising, as well as being efficient for meal making. I can expect that my children will always see meal preparation as a time when all or most of us were usually together, participating as we could or were needed, even it that was 'only' participating in the conversation.

You see, the mundane 'chores' that many feminists despise provide opportunities for conversation, sharing and togetherness. Again, it has not been my experience that boys (or girls) shirk these tasks if they have been included early and not put off.

We have to remember too that most women would not like to give up their command and casting vote on 'domestic' matters, especially the spending side.

Bronwyn

The two schools of feminist thought you describe were an excellent clarification of the points I raised … and thank you. You’re right in saying that the former sums up my views, especially this comment …

‘… that feminism is about changing (or at least moderating) the androcentric model on which most western societies are currently based …’

This is the side of feminism that is timeless and relevant to all societies everywhere (not just Western) – regardless of the 'status’ that women presently occupy within their society's structure. This is also the type of feminism that works better when applied to other disciplines like sociology, anthropology, archaeology, history, politics, philosophy, theology etc, rather than as a stand-alone movement.

(By the way, your use of the term ‘androcratic’ makes me wonder if you have read much about Cultural Transformation Theory and the works of Riane Eisler. If not, I believe you would get a lot out of them.)

As for the other school of feminist thought you describe …This is more strategic feminism – the type that focuses on specific goals when the time and opportunity are ripe – e.g. the EEO struggle, the female suffragist era. However, that type of feminism then wanes once the goal is achieved.

‘That is why I find it so disappointing when it seems the next generation of women think the battle's been fought and won and won’t be there to pick up the baton.’

That's not my experience. I see huge numbers of young women at IWD and other feminist events. And even if it were true, don’t be too hard on young women. Taking things for granted is a privilege of youth.

I agree with Denise Chumley (a radical feminist on OLO – yaaay!). For most post-EEO era women, the full impact of gender injustices, like the lingering male-centricity of the workplace culture and the undervaluing of the stay-at-home parenting role, does not hit them until at least their 20s.

Some accept it and adjust. Others get mad … and then they get political!

SJF

"That's not my experience. I see huge numbers of young women at IWD and other feminist events."

That's encouraging to hear. It probably helps explain why you tend to see the good a little more readily than I do!

"Some accept it and adjust. Others get mad … and then they get political!"

I hope you're right, but again I'm a little less sanguine than you are. I agree, a lot of women do get political later on in their lives, but my guess is that most of them have had an earlier taste of political awakening somewhere along the line, either at school or uni, and are just picking up the threads.

Again, you might be in touch more than I am, but my sense is that the initial stirrings of political interest in today's students are much less likely to be kindled in the first place than was once the case. Courses at both school and uni have become much more narrow and vocationally oriented. The status of humanities studies has been downgraded and students are so busy working to pay their living expenses that the time for sitting around and reflecting on the issues of the day is not part of the uni experience to the extent it once was.

"I agree with Denise Chumley (a radical feminist on OLO – yaaay!)."

Yes, welcome Denise!

En-heartening posts SJF.

I didn't get political until after I was married. I really didn't know that women could be regarded as chattel - until my husband. Talk about a baptism in fire... from my twenties onwards I prefer to use the title of 'Ms'. Another wake-up call was while still married; applying for a job and being asked if I planned to have children - acceptable in those days, but what wasn't acceptable was the reaction of the all male interview panel who, when told that I did not plan on children, remarked that my husband must be crazy, that they would be trying to impregnate me at every opportunity. Eeeeuuww. These days I could've sued the bastards.

However, I don't believe that the posters on OLO are an accurate cross-section of people. I certainly don't encounter the hatred and vitriol that occurs whenever a female (or male) posts a pro-feminist comment, in my day to day life. The men in my life are fabulous, but I did have to learn the hard way and I am careful. There are those whose insecurities lead them to believe everything that is wrong with their lives is someone else’s fault and feminism is a convenient scapegoat simply because women are still not full participants in the power structure of our world.

When men and women can choose to either focus on parenting as their most important contribution, or follow full-time careers, or a combination of both we will be on the way to a more egalitarian society.

And young women do grow up, eventually.

Bronwyn,

You seem to have side-stepped all the queries of why you think women only ever exhibit 'negative' traits because of a male construct.

Do you think when a man is being compassionate, cooperative and nurturing with his children, he is acting like a woman?

Fractelle,

'When men and women can choose to either focus on parenting as their most important contribution, or follow full-time careers...'

They can. Nothing is stopping them.

'everything that is wrong with their lives is someone else’s fault '
Would that be like saying it's someone else's fault that you cant choose between career or parenting, when there is no law stopping you and many other people can achieve just that?

I hear a lot about this 'hatred and vitriol' from you, but I don't see any evidence of it. It seems to me that according to you anyone who disagrees with you is guilty of hatred and vitriol?

SJF,

'a sympathetic government might one day re-ignite the innate justness of feminism’s cause '
re-ignite? I think feminist orginisations get pleanty of funding. Geez, recently Elizabeth Broderic recomended a new government department to deal with sex discrimination against males as apparently that's outside the scope of the sex discrimination minister's office.

BTW: I see Denise and Bronwyn implying that women are more interested in saving the environment than men. I wonder if there is any evidence for this assumption. Kind of like Fractelles belief of a war-less world if only women were in charge.