What a strange article, or maybe not so.

Abortion can lead to grief – Probably true.

Grief is an opportunity for personal growth - Hmmm

Therefore, abortion is an oppurtunity for personal growth – Double Hmmm

With the decriminalisation of abortion I feel sure that there will be a move towards encouraging women to have abortions, and all sorts of reasons will be given to encourage abortion.

This article states the obvious really.

Of course abortion causes grief, it is a big decision that anyone has to make. I had a friend who in her 40s still feels deep sadness about an abortion she had when she was in her early 20s. To the point where she felt that God had punished her when she lost another baby to miscarriage in her 30s. The emotional impact of abortion is probably under estimated but I doubt it would be overlooked in counselling services although I cannot speak from personal experience.

I guess there might be a tendency to overlook the possible effects of abortion on women and men later on if there is another agenda at play. That is the sad truth of politics and those with agendas on both sides of any debate.

The utopia would be for there to be no abortion but we all know that utopia does not exist and that there are many rights to be weighed up.

Like the two previous posters, I too can see how a decision to abort carries an emotional price with it.

And like pelican stated “there are many rights to be weighed up”

Personally, I figure we all have to bear the consequences of the decisions we make, be they abortion, migration, who we marry and how many children are born to us etc. etc.

We can and must accept responsibility for those decisions and if need be, grieve for where our decision was, in hindsight we feel (subjectively), the wrong one.

However, how should we grieve for decisions imposed upon us?

Does anyone grieve for the amount of tax we pay?

No because we do not have a choice to pay tax.

Does anyone grieve for the circumstances of their birth and wish they were born to different parents?

Maybe some do but it is pretty silly.

So what about pregnancy

Where is the greater harm

In someone grieving for an abortion they regret”

Or

Grieving for a life they could but never, had because they decided to continue with a pregnancy regardless

Or

Should they just be as negative as most are about paying tax because, the law said “abortion is illegal” and you do not get to make a choice?

We can grieve for the decisions we make and I believe “personal growth” is a matter of accepting personal responsibility for all those decisions.

BUT We cannot grieve for decisions imposed upon us and thus, we cannot experience any personal growth through them either.

‘Life’ has a lot to do with personal growth and where there is no growth, there is no point.

Grieving is a healthy thing because it can lead to acknowledging the crime and coming to repentance. When hearts are so hard that they suppress the fact they have murdered their child (along with doctors and nurses) our nation is in a very poor spiritual condition.

"When hearts are so hard that they suppress the fact they have murdered their child.."

Nobody has murdered anyone. In a normally-timed abortion the foetus is about as developed as a mature lobster. Yes, it is regrettable to destroy something unique that has the potential for life: but I connive at exactly the same thing every time I have lamb chops for dinner. Let's not get hysterical here.

Jon J,
I have heard of pro-abortions and aware and loving feminists talk of the fetus as being a ”bunch of cells” , a “toe nail” and now a “lobster”.

Pro-abortion propaganda has been very effective in desensitizing and removal of human emotion.

I wonder what will happen next?

HRS,

Do you eat lamb chops? Are you sorry a lamb has to die to provide a dozen families with a dinner? So am I -- but not sorry enough to stop eating lamb. Yet a lamb is far more developed than a human foetus. If there was a way to get lamb chops without killing lambs I would be all for it -- just as (unlike the Pope) I am all for humans using contraception. But aborting a blob of cells with the potential to be human is certainly no worse than putting a bolt through the brain of a young mammal, and the positive results in terms of relieving despair and misery are much, much greater than a lamb dinner. THAT is my emotional reaction, not the instinctive 'awww' provoked by emotive but misleading words like 'killing' and 'murder'.

JonJ
As a heterotrophic animal, I am compelled to eat other organisms to live.

However I do not eat fetuses, and I am not desensitized and brainwashed enough to regard a human fetus as being a “lobster” (as you now do).

While I can see the necessity for abortion in some circumstances, the abortion rate is too high, and abortion is now a political issue. Certain individuals may want to desensitize and brainwash other people so as to continue their politics and desire for abortion.

Jon J

No doubt with your godless philosophy you see nothing wrong with Cannibalism. Maybe when we have euthanasia in full swing we could solve the 'food crisis.'

Runner conjuring images of soylent green. Eerily predictive.

HRS - "Pro-abortion propaganda has been very effective in desensitizing and removal of human emotion."

Yes - I have noticed that too, which isn't too insightful really because we have plenty of historical examples where people who were to be subjected to genocide were also cast as something less than human - as lice; as vermin and so forth. The Nazis' actions of course spring to mind, but there are plenty of others.

When someone or some group is inconvenient; this seems to be the first basic rule - make sure that the feeling - the humanity - of their presence is nullified.

I am anti-abortion but pro-choice.

I would have abortion be legal, then do everything possible to educate people to make use of alternative methods of birth control and to consider the continued health risks of the abortion procedure.

I also think that the morning after pill should be readily available at every emergency department and perhaps from GPs.

Pynchme,
Propaganda is very effective isn’t it.

You want a post pregnancy pill that a woman takes in the full knowledge that she is pregnant.

And that pill will also stop them from grieving.

I wonder what that pill will contain. There wouldn’t be an illegal drug contained in that pill I suppose.

No, no. One needn't be or know they are pregnant to
take a morning after pill.

However, let's say a sexual assault victim turns up at
the ED, they could take the pill as a precaution.

It works for up to 3 days by making the womb
inhospitable to a fertilized egg or by preventing
ovulation for that short period.

Bear in mind that very often an egg is moving along
the fallopian tube and isn't actually fertilized at
the time that people have sex. It can happen quite a
while after the act.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/morningafterpill.htm

http://www.fpahealth.org.au/sex-matters/faq/index_7.html

Pynchme
So this pill is based around the concept of what you don’t know won’t hurt you.

Next feminists will be saying they believe in education.

HRS/Timkins, you really hate women don't you. You don't want women to have access to RU486, no abortions, you resent paying child support for your stray sperm that fertilised ova. Even though women earn 83% of of male earning you whinge that men pay 70% of tax - Duh! Australia still has a progressive income tax regime. You resent girls performing better at school than boys. You are resentful and frightened of educated competent women. Keep venting your frustration behind your keyboard.

Billie,

Agreed. That's how it seems alright.

billie: << HRS/Timkins, you really hate women don't you >>

I agree with Pynchme and billie. If there's one theme that runs through virtually every one of Timkins' incessantly bleating posts, it's that women should denied anything at all that allows them to achieve equality with men.

But don't say he's mysogynist - that tends to raise the pitch of the bleating somewhat.

Guys - HRS is a troll, pure and simple. Once a particular group of posters has discovered that and learns to ignore him he goes back under his bridge for a while. Then when some fresh meat appears he pops up and starts again.

Every argument, viewpoint, entreaty, rationale or hypothesis possible has been presented to him. He either does not read them or ignores them. Don't bother.

Billie, CJ Morgan, Romany
So what are your thoughts regards grief and abortion?

You haven’t mentioned anything yet.

Do you have any thoughts of your own, or are you only capable of repeating propaganda and slogans previously prepared for you (eg. If you don’t like abortion then don’t have one, get over it, a fetus is just a bunch of cell etc).

Grief: Let's have a bit of perspective here please.

I feel grief when my aged arthritic dog dies, but it's temporary and after a while I can remember highlights of our life together.

I imagine a woman who has tried very hard to get pregnant and really wants a child feels grief when she miscarries or terminates a pregnancy because the foetus is not viable.

Many people feel relief when an unwanted pregnancy is terminated but probably idly wonder what might have been.

When I deal with sole parents surviving on single parent pensions I thank God that neither I nor my family are amongst that number. I think living on a social security pension would destroy me.

Billie,
There would be a number of things someone on a sole parenting pension could do.
1. Get a job.
2. Get married.
3. Both

I don’t think any of that would destroy you, or be enough reason to have an abortion. In fact, I read recently that being married normally adds 5 to 10 years to your life, as well as being very good for the children.

However I don’t think that type of information would make it into feminist propaganda. It is more likely for feminist propaganda to say men = evil,
marriage = evil,
abortion = good.

HRS

You forgot that they could also adopt out their child instead of murdering it.

HRS

Oy you really don't know much about feminism.

There are many schools of feminist thought.

Not all women who have abortions are feminist and not all feminists would terminate a pregnancy. However, most of us do understand that each person has to make a judgement about their own needs and situation and that, in the past, some have been so desperate that they've used very dangerous means to terminate a pregnancy; often dying in the process.

Also many feminists are married and have sons and spouses that they love; therefore your equations are rather silly.

I wish you wouldn't demonize feminism. I think if you knew more about it and went to a little trouble to read instead of griping at us for your personal troubles, that you might be very surprised and even, perhaps, comforted. Why won't you try ?

Pynchme, HRS is just scared of being obselete. And his whining about feminism simply dresses up the fact that he hates women, not feminists. Using a label such as feminism simply distracts from his rants against women, no matter what they do. The fact that he is new to the concept of the morning-after pill shows that there is little education- its been taught in school as part of sex-ed for at least the last 15 years.

What gets up my nose in any debate on abortion is the men wagging their finger at the immoral girls, when there is rarely a mention of the responsibility of the male involved in creating the pregnancy. There are always going to be a small number of accidents, but why arent these men engaging in sex (casually one would assume) using condoms! Surely that's a male responsibility. It should never come down to the pill except for secure long-term relationships (for which a surprise child whilst unplanned would probably not require abortion to "fix"). Think of the cost savings in the health system for a much lower number of STD's too.

That's it, its a conspiracy designed for men to have flings at will and avoid all responsibility for the outcome. Over the years its been dressed up to look like a women's "choice" debate, when its all about men trying to hug their cash a bit tighter.

Excellent post Country Gal.

Pynchme, are you new to OLO? If so, welcome. You will soon find there is no chance of having an equitable debate with HRS. In his little world, women who disagree with him are evil marxist feminists - no exceptions.

One thing that HRS is capable of doing - wearing a condom.

Two things he will never ever have to endure - being made pregnant against his will or having an abortion.

Very easy to be judgmental when one has virtually no responsibility.

Country Gal - nice to meetcha and great post. I meant to say g'day earlier but didn't have enough post or time allowance to do so.

Fractelle - thanks for the advice and hullo to you.

I am not really new; I just haven't had as much time as I'd like to post and such; but I am not familiar with many of the IDs anyway.

I think you're right. Almost a waste of time *however; if I have time it's kind of interesting to respond:

1. There's a human there somewhere - maybe one day something will spark some understanding or interest.

2. When someone like that is aroun; it gives the rest of us an opportunity to respond and so state our case.

I don't know if I'll always have the patience or be bothered to respond, but it's ok for now. Let's see what happens :)

thank you :)

Grieving and personal growth - this could be true, but I don't see it, I do see lifes experiences in general leading to personal growth but grief in my opinion doesn't. When people loose close family members or friends there is no personal growth except for finding ways to deal with the grief and those tactics some people find to deal with it quite often isn't personal growth and in fact can be quite devastating.

The foetus, whether you call it a toe nail or a lobster(hmmm),that's terminated is quite often not thought about very often let alone grieved over, let alone had much guilt feelings attached to the termination. If someone who terminated the child felt pushed into the termination I would imagine there would be some qute disturbing feelings attached to the situation and that would be awful.

However, I feel that counsellors who work in these clinics should pick up on this and it is their responsibility to ensure no termination goes ahead if their is any doubt about the procedure from distinctly the mother and/or the father of the child in the making.

Life is one long rd of making choices and we don't always get it right and can't expect to, I say think very carefully and know your capabilities. Children born who are not wanted or mistreated is more devastating in my opinion, and I would imagine that adoption would attract more grief and despair. Would be shocking to return to the days where women weren't given a choice over pregnancy and return to backyard jobs.

Lucinda9798 - you said in your post; "The foetus...that's terminated is quite often not thought about very often let alone grieved over, let alone had much guilt feelings attached to the termination."

I feel compelled to ask how you know such a thing? For whom do you speak? Certainly not for me.

I think women (and men) can be under so much emotional pressure at the time of considering abortion of a foetus that they cannot possibly know the effects of their decision until months, years, decades later.

But grief is grief. No matter the circumstances of the loss.

I thought the original article was excellent.

lucinda9798 You answer your own question

"personal growth except for finding ways to deal with the grief "

Understanding how to deal with grief is the personal growth which will help the individual to deal with any sort of loss later in their life.

I can think of several anecdotal experience of people in my personal life who have to deal with the "grief" resulting from broken longer term relationships.

The stimulus might be different but the "grief" is remarkably similar.

However, whilst I would never assume the competing merits of orphanhood, parental mistreatment verses abortion for the fetus, I agree with your view of the personal choice being wholy the pregnant womans.