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The Lies Of Hiroshima Are The Lies Of Today : Comments
By John Pilger, published 14/8/2008There is a 'progression of lies' from the dust of Hirsohima to the wars of today
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Posted by Ho Hum, Thursday, 14 August 2008 10:25:22 AM
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Ho Hum
Depleted Uranium (DU) is almost pure U238 which is not radioactive in any real sense. The author quoted the the extremely long half life which proves that point and no Uranium isotopes are toxic in the normal sense. Even Plutonium is less toxic than some often ingested chemicals. U235 is the valuable nuclear fuel component in yellow cake and it is only 0.711% of the total Uranium present in that refined oxide ore. In all Uranium ore bodies the ratio of U235 to U238 is the same worldwide except at a couple of sites where water acted as a moderator so that nuclear fission occured naturally over time in the ore body. In those ore bodies the percentage of U235 is even lower than 0.7%. That ratio is why yellow cake can be transported safely. In enrichment every effort is made to recover all the valuable ingredient so that there is a negligible amount of U235 in DU. Small dispersed quantities of U235 is not particularly dangerous as its half life is over 700 million years or around 100 thousand times the half life of the radioactive carbon isotope. I suggest the author of the article you quoted is talking through his proverbial. Posted by Foyle, Thursday, 14 August 2008 11:13:36 AM
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As I pointed out in a posting on 12/8, there is new persuasive evidence that it was not the Bomb that finally forced Japan`s surrender but the entry of the Soviet Union into the war.See:Tsuyoshi Hasegawa, "Racing the Enemy:Stalin,Truman and the Surrender of Japan", Harvard Uni Press, 2005. Using the Bomb signalled not only the end of WW2 but also the onset of the Cold War.
Having survived Mutually Assured Destruction of the Cold War, the Post Cold War world is now threatened by the US doctrine of "nuclear primacy". See; Keir A Lieber and Daryl G Press, The Rise of US Nuclear Primacy,"Foreign Affairs",March/April,2006. In the context of the undeclared war over access to the oil and gas of Central Asia,the escalating conflict between the US and Russia is potentially catastrophic. Leslie Posted by Leslie, Thursday, 14 August 2008 11:34:47 AM
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Another modern day revisionist who no doubt minimizes how barbaric the Japanese were. Pilger writes in a time of peace won by the US and Aussie soldiers( many of whom lost their lives). Pilger's hate for the US clearly impairs his vision and ability to report history accurately.
Where the bombs were dropped may be a point of disagreement but the moral high ground taken by Pilger is quite sickening. Posted by runner, Thursday, 14 August 2008 1:30:04 PM
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Foyle.
The article that I posted was not just about depleted uranium. It was about the interlocking web of lies, obfuscation, deceipt and avoidance of responsibility or buck passing, re every facet of the nuclear industry, wherever it is on the planet. And how it is disaster for humankind altogether,as everything about it slowly or quickly rots or disintegrates and thus sooner or later become part of our bodies, or of our childrens and grand childrens etc and forever. Lies which have been spun from day one by the rulers of the Necropolis or the City of the Dead Cheap, clean, safe energy for all. Or so we were told/assured. The same kind of lies, and from the same corporate and government spin/lies/propaganda (public relations!!)sources that sold us the "war on terror", and are trying to sell us GMO "foods" too. It is also related to the cover ups and obfuscations related to this topic too. 1. http://www.truthout.org/article/amy-worthington-the-radiation-poisoning-of-america Posted by Ho Hum, Thursday, 14 August 2008 2:26:03 PM
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The historical fact is, which Pilger deliberately brushes over so he can make his intellectually crippling and moral argument, that the fear at the time was that the Germans might get the bomb not that “Russia was our enemy,” quoting misleadingly General Groves. Roosevelt had an amicable relationship with Stalin and believed their two countries after the war could reach a modus vivendi and indeed, cooperation. Moreover, the head of the Manhattan Project, Oppenheimer, and many of its other scientists, was a financial supporter, if not a clandestine member, like his brother, of the Communist Party of the USA, and hardly would have taken the directorship of the project if the bomb was to be used “to browbeat the Russians.”
The intelligent errors of the CIA and all of its European counterparts in their estimates that Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction, Pilger cleverly transforms them into lies, appealing to the conventional wisdom of the hoi polloi, so he can do his own disinformation in regards to Iran’s covert planning to acquire nuclear weapons, by dubbing it also as a lie, manufactured by the “discredited CIA-sponsored Iranian opposition, the MEK”, so he can give credibility to his own lies. For what strategic reason would the US and its ally Israel attack Iran, whilst the former is involved at the moment in two wars, in Iraq and Afghanistan, other than the great threat that a nuclear Iran would pose to the region and to the strategic interests of the one and to the existence of the other? Whom the US would have “to browbeat” by letting loose from their silos their nuclear missiles against Iran, other than the latter? http://power-politics1.blogspot.com Posted by Themistocles, Thursday, 14 August 2008 3:36:29 PM
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Continued from the above.
In my opinion, if Iran is going to be attacked either by the US or Israel or both the strategic planning of the attack would be made up with TWO STRIKES. The first one would be to attack Iran with a devastating “rain” of conventional weapons that would target not only its nuclear plants but also its civilian, military, and religious leadership with the aim of decimating them. If however, its triangular leadership miraculously escapes its destruction and RETALIATES either against the naval and land forces of the US or Israel or any of the other Gulf States, then such retaliatory action by Iran would call a second strike perpetrated either by Israel or the US with nuclear weapons. http://power-politics1.blogspot.com Posted by Themistocles, Thursday, 14 August 2008 3:39:56 PM
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My parents, grand parents and all their brothers and sisters were POWs of the Japanese in WWII. I never heard any of them complain about the bomb. In fact whenever the subject came up there were mutterings about actions and consequences.
WWII was by today's standards a barbaric war. It wasn't fought today but 65 years ago. Standards change and you can't judge it's decisions against modern morals. (Strictly speaking all wars are barbaric but that is another story) Counter factual speculation is just that, speculation. We'll never know what would have happened if other choices were made at the time, no matter how much we debate them now. The whole history of WWII is full with bluff, blunder and miscalculation. Think Munich, Poland, Barbarossa, the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact etc etc.There is simply no way we'll know for certain how soon Japan would have surrendered. The bombs were intended for Germany. If D-Day had failed (due to bad weather perhaps) it may have been Dresden and Hamburg that have an atomic monument today. There was a Japanese order to execute all POWs on the 17th of August or the day an allied soldier set foot in Japan, which ever came first. We'll never know if that order would have happened but had it been carried out my whole family wouldn't be here today. Radiation was no secret in those days. My grandfather was a POW in Nagasaki when the bomb dropped. A week later they were flown to Manila where they were ordered to strip out of their new uniforms so they could be burned (the uniforms that is) because nobody really knew how bad the radiation would be. The POWs weren't too happy about this as they'd been wearing rags for years. The bottom line is that both sides targeted civilians in WWII. Nowadays that wouldn't be on but we have to look at WWII in the context of it's time. Posted by gusi, Thursday, 14 August 2008 4:54:03 PM
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I'm sure my uncle who was tortured in Changi Prison and the thousands of others who suffered far worse fates at the hands of the Japanese,would feel a lot of empathy for this article.
You weren't there and you don't have a clue to what the real situation was at that moment.How many more allied soldiers would have died and who started the aggression anyway? Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 14 August 2008 5:36:10 PM
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Leslie,
I agree with your comment on the part Russia played in the Japanese surrender. The Japanese had effectively already lost the war and were looking for a way to surrender but we culturally incapable. The Russians were returning from Europe and preparing to attack Japan from their North and there was a local fear that a conquered Japan would be split in two, like Berlin. Meanwhile the Manhattan project scientists were rushing to get their two different bomb models field-tested before the war ended. Politically it was also a show of strength toward the Russians to temper their demands in post-war Europe and was the start of the Cold War. In the end, our argument was that the bomb ended the war and saved lives and the Japanese had the excuse that they had no choice but to surrender honorably when faced with such "barbarity". So - everybody won. (Except the citizens of two cities). Posted by wobbles, Thursday, 14 August 2008 8:13:27 PM
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Prior to the dropping of the Atomic Bombs the two major battles fought were Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
The Battle of Iwo Jima (February 19-March 26, 1945) was the United States capture of the island of Iwo Jima from Japan, producing some of the fiercest fighting in the Pacific Campaign of World War II. Of the over 21,000 Japanese soldiers entrenched on the island, 20,703 died either from fighting or by ritual suicide. Only 216 were captured during the battle. The Allied forces suffered 27,909 casualties, with 6,825 killed in action. Iwo Jima was also the only U.S. Marine battle where the American casualties exceeded the Japanese. The Battle of Okinawa was the largest amphibious assault in the Pacific Theater of World War II. The 82 day battle lasted from late March through June 1945. The battle had one of the highest number of casualties of any World War Two engagement: the Japanese lost over 100,000 troops, and the Allies (mostly United States) suffered more than 50,000 casualties, with over 12,000 killed in action. There can be no doubt that it was because the Japanese on Iwo Jima and Okinawa were so fierce in their defence (even when cut off, and without supplies), and because casualties were so appalling, that the atomic bomb on was used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Every Allied WWII soldier I have talked to, particularly those who were going to have to fight in Japan were ecstatic that the bombs were dropped and they did not have to fight. Secondly can there be any doubt that if the atomic bomb was available to the Japanese government that it would not have been used. Given the above how could any leader not use every weapon at his or her disposal to both win the war and minimise the casualities on his or her side. Posted by EQ, Thursday, 14 August 2008 9:22:40 PM
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Seriously, its sad to see self righteous lefties like John Pilger glean such joy from berating the West over WWII. This new rewriting of history to portray the imperialist and sadistic Japanese as somehow "victims" of some mindless fools with a big bomb is simply nuts. He may have forgotten how the Japanese soldier was prepared to die for the pride of the Emperor and the populus would be forced to do the same. Surrender was not in the Japanese lexicon at that time. Invasion would have led to hundreds of thousands more deaths on both sides.
Pilger is an appeaser like Chamberlain who let Hitler wreak havoc on millions before any action was taken. No, I'm proud of what the Allies did in WWII. It released us from potential servitude to a cruel master. Pilger cannot see the responsiblity of the Japanese in their own demise. This is a strange and selective blindness. Its the Pilgers of this world who will get us all killed in the long run Posted by Atman, Thursday, 14 August 2008 9:48:51 PM
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So Ahmadinejad didn't threaten to wipe Israel off the map eh John? A mere technicality mate. He merely agreed with someone else's opinion that Israel should be wiped off the map. And here is the source:
Tehran, Oct 26 - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Wednesday called for Israel to be "wiped off the map". "As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said Ahmadinejad, referring to the late founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Imam Khomeini. Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting News Network Sponsored By IRIB News Computer Center. If there are lies and distortion they are certainly coming from you. Posted by Atman, Thursday, 14 August 2008 10:14:08 PM
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Gentlemen, Perspective please.
There is clear evidence that Japan were considering surrendering prior to The two bombs. The same as it was also clear that Japan didn't have plans to invade Australia. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't have. N.B. the first casualty of war/politics is truth. My father was on the Burma railway and he told me that the most brutal inhuman guards were the Koreans....as if they had something to prove. Meaning, the public isn’t always told everything. The fact is that in war obscenities get done. Simply put the victors write the history. Morally, just because one side commits atrocities (sacrificing their humanity0 that doesn't justify us doing the same. Before anyone gets excited this doesn't = appeasement or pacifism. ATMAN, it’s not the Pilgers of the world that will in the long run it’s the ill informed lazy individuals who confuse rhetoric and propaganda with facts. We can’t lose WW2 now. Remember if WE DON’T LEARN FROM THE TRUTH IGNORING IT BY BLIND PATRIOTISM WE ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT. Pilger is trying to point out that the US govt of the day has many agendas. One was to stamp its self as the world’s most powerful nation….Not necessarily the most moral or honourable. From a factual point of view, party based politics doesn’t necessarily give us the best leaders. This is even starker in war. Granddaddy Bush made his money as part of the 3rd Reich’s Bankers. Anyone recon GWB was a good leader? To his friends war was a profit opportunity. To him that he’s a good American and the USA is the leader of the ‘free’ (sic) world. We need to be suspicious of other countries motive for wanting us to go to war. So far we’ve followed all too often in other people’s wars and ambitions. It's the 'leaders' who start these bloody wars and sell it to us on the grounds of patriotism and fear. Sorry but I don't like being a pawn or a mushroom. Posted by examinator, Friday, 15 August 2008 12:06:59 AM
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Don't feeeeed the TROLL... (Pilger)
That's about all his article deserves..... Posted by Polycarp, Friday, 15 August 2008 11:07:30 AM
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this a-bomb use...dont know guys...I mean, lets put ourselves in shoes of powers that had/ordered exploding a-bomb...truman et al...reasonably knew destructive power\radioactivity\lasting contamination...then carefully chose city so blast radius covered most or it...so looks good...and enola-gay so heavy that it almost couldnt take off...flew like a overweight duck any old plane could have brought down till before target...
so japanese didnt have much control over the skies by then...few carpet runs with conventionals would have produced same hiroshima results...with less civilian loss...yep...cold calculated mass destruction of souls...so american government could declare 'we are the most powerful-est'...and that attitude has continued since...eg iraq... worse...manipulate population mass using corporate media...yes with deceit...eg "No radioactivity in Hiroshima ruin" said the front page of the New York Times, a classic of disinformation...now go look at headlines leading to iraq invasion...see the similarity...same aim...act like snakes look like roses... bottom line...to me three basic groups exist in these situations...those in-control, those loosing-control, and 'general world opinion'...eg american-govt/iraq-got/and us the world...what we get is 'news' but end of day we have to make an assessment/decision/with it where our support lies...and this is the greatest asset of all...the power that controls this most likely wins that war.. what Im saying is we the 'general_world-opinion' never support any wars...instead support right to peaceful growing coexistence...no matter what war-righteous propaganda the media throws at us...and soon we a 'force' will develop among us that enforces this 'want' over all governments...oh yeah...bye bye multi-trillion dollar arm industry to just billions-dollars... Sam guess if force of peace existed then...japanese/american people would step inbetween their governments war machines and face them off...end of war...leading to corporative common society growth...see this working...dont you...but yes...fundamentally it requires a 'common decent person of society(not destructive but constructive in acts)' to be 'street smart excellence(intellectual/emotional/spiritual balanced individual) applied with knowledge(educated) and skill(achieve happy daily life) organized to act(motivated and energized) achieve balanced outcome'... Posted by Sam said, Friday, 15 August 2008 11:18:52 AM
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Whenever somebody like Pilger makes a statement that some disagree with, not many seem keen to challenge him on his facts, just his right to state them.
Even if only 10% of what he says is true, then what does other 90% do to the validity of "the Big Picture"? The truth is far more complex than what we are made to see through the lens of populist history and controlled media. Posted by rache, Friday, 15 August 2008 1:18:13 PM
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John Pilger states in the article "In the immediate aftermath of the bomb, the allied occupation authorities banned all mention of radiation poisoning and insisted that people had been killed or injured only by the bomb's blast."
My father served in the occupation forces from the end of the war until 1948, at a place called Bofu, not far from Kobe. I recall during my school days him talking about having visited Hiroshima shortly after its destruction, and as to both his having been told, as an Australian serviceman, and the Japanese populace at large being told, that nothing would grow there for 70 years! The dozens of photos he had brought back of the utter devastation made such a claim easy to believe. I particularly remember him remarking that, despite the warnings, Japanese civilians returned to the site within months, and within 12 months were growing vegetables and crops as well, if not better than ever! Of course, for reasons now well known, that might not have been wise. The point is that there was absolutely no secret at all as to there having been serious radiation hazzard after-effects. There was no reason for him having said this if it was not true. He also resided for a time with a number of local Japanese families. I do not know whether that was by way of compulsory billeting, or by private invitation: I was too young to have realized the possible significance, or even the existence, of the distinction. The impression I have is of the latter. I remember his remarking that early on the populace found it absolutely incomprehensible that acts of personal or official retribution against civilians or demobilised Japanese servicemen simply did not occur. The Japanese incursion into China between 1931 and 1945 has been claimed to have cost around 35 million Chinese lives. General Anami's reaction to the first bomb: "So the Americans have a new weapon. So what!". Something clearly had to happen to change the culture. Fortunately Hiro Hito saw things differently. The atomic bombs gave him the needed clout. Posted by Forrest Gumpp, Friday, 15 August 2008 3:33:35 PM
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When the Japs recognise in their history books their atrocities and officially apologise for their war time crimes,then all bets are off in terms of feeling guilt for both Hiroshima and Nagasaki.To this day,they still deny any wrong doing!
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 15 August 2008 8:04:14 PM
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Great article John.
For many force fed on a diet of lies and imperialist claptrap such truth is unnerving and produces the usual barrage of abuse, without argument. War and recession are the twin souls of capitalism in crisis. They are not aberrations. They flow naturally and inexorably from the way capitalism is organised; from the very nature of the wage slave relationship and the manic drive for profit, profit and more profit. Only by creating a democratic society where production is organised to satisfy human need can we abolish want and war. Your truths, John, are helping expose the way our brutal rulers - Rudd, Bush (and Obama or McCain), Brown and Blair, Putin and Hu - run the world for the profit mongers and in fierce economic and military competition with each other. If that means killing millions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Tibet, or Georgia, so be it. If it meant nuking Nagasaki and Hiroshima as part of the chess game of imperialist competition between the US and the Russians in 1945, so be it. What a contempt for humanity these imperialists on all sides and their supporters have. And the fact that Russian, Chnese and European imperialism feels stymied, contained and constricted by US economic and military dominance only creates a more dangerous world for us and our kids. The predictable outcome unelss we re-organise society will be more Nagasakis and Hiroshimas, more proxy wars, more death and destruction. Posted by Passy, Saturday, 16 August 2008 8:56:21 AM
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Its bordering on incredible that many think they are enlightened about the real machinations of the world when they cannot see that they are being manipulated by anti-western propaganda. This view dominates the media, not as some would believe the conservative view.
The views of the ABC, for example, are clearly dominated by left wing anti-western ideology. There is little if any alternative conservative media in Australia. Anti-Western ideology is the current dominant media view and Pilger is a classic example. Pro-Pilger people are just following the Party line yet portray themselves as an oppressed minority, so effective has the indoctrination campaign been. Posted by Atman, Saturday, 16 August 2008 8:46:28 PM
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WIKIPEDIA: “Between DEC.1937 and March1938, one of the worst massacres in modern times took place when Japanese troops captured the Chinese city of Nanking.
This was just before World War 2 started in 1939. JAPANESE WAR CRIMES: The Japanese army and JAPANESE CIVILIANS, murdered over 30million Chinese civilians. In 1940 they came up with some noble sounding propaganda for their invasion of China and other Asian countries they called it the “Greater East Asia Co-Operation Sphere”. In his blinkered attack on America and the West John Pilger fails to see that the Japanese were no innocent bystanders but in fact were guilty of the slaughter of millions before they even got started in World War 2. Posted by sharkfin, Sunday, 17 August 2008 1:43:50 AM
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Passy,
It is not just the leaders. We all compete with each other in this world for jobs, land and houses, sexual and procreation partners, clean water and decent food etc. The German people were in no way innocent when they elected Hitler to deal with the Jewish problem and they were in no way innocent when they quitely took possession of the six million or more homes and possessions that were left behind by the exterminated and exiled Jews. Posted by sharkfin, Sunday, 17 August 2008 2:05:15 AM
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Come on Atman the ABC is hardly anti western. In fact the way they lay into Carpenter I wouldn't even call them left wing.
Conspiracies only exist in the eye of the beholder. Posted by gusi, Monday, 18 August 2008 1:07:17 AM
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Mr. Pilger appears to be under the severely naive impression that ONLY the comparatively democratic West can be guilty of imperialism. What, EXACTLY does he consider imperial Japan to have been?
Yes, Mr. Pilger, in strictly HUMAN terms, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes. I don't feel they were necessary either. So? What EXACTLY is your point? In war, people commit war crimes . . . the "bad" guys, AND the "good" guys. It's called: . . . The result of hatred, anger, confusion, the impulse for revenge, emotional hysteria, fear of the future, the desire for dominance, etc. Why are you surprised? When I was still foolish enough to be a Trotskyist, many years ago, I remember listening to radical feminists declare that the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (which WAS a NAKEDLY IMPERIALIST act by a MARXIST SOCIALIST regime . . . NOT a capitalist one, and was NOT provoked by any 9/11-type of terrorism in the Soviet Union) was a "good" thing (even though both Pashtuns and non-Pashtuns UNITED to fight against it) because it would "destroy" the "misogynistic" native culture . . . it was "for their own good", even if the majority didn't like it. They "needed to be dragged, kicking and screaming", into the modern world . . . even as Soviet troops were tossing prisoners under moving tanks. None of these "ladies" of the Left appeared to have any recognition of the inconsistencies in their own "anti-imperialist" ideology. We can reasonably conclude that Mr. Pilger believes ONLY America and its allies should be required to meticulously follow the "rules of war". Perhaps he feels that Australia would be safer and more "democratic" if the Empire of Japan had won the war, instead of capitalist "imperialist" America . . . a land where Mr. Pilger would STILL be free to market virtually any calumny he wishes, from the comfort of his hotel room's sofa. About the comments of the President of Iran . . . Mr. Pilger is simply parsing words. He knows very well what the lunatic of Tehran MEANT. Posted by sonofeire, Monday, 18 August 2008 3:35:01 PM
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Gusi, How many pro American interviews have you seen on the ABC? The very vast majority of their interviews are with people with doomsday predictions of impending disasters due to current or past behaviour of the West. Aboriginal Problem, Climate Change, victims of past wars(Pilger), economic and social inequalities etc are usually attributed to Western decadence. No?
Occasional intense questioning of Labour party figures or others figures does not necessarily equal balance. Who said its a Conspiracy? Not me. Its just their own bizarre reality in which the West is to blame for the worlds problems. Nothing could be further from the truth. Without the US and the West the World would be run by totalitarian states and we would have long ago ceased to exist. Posted by Atman, Monday, 18 August 2008 4:22:01 PM
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John is not arguing for support of Japanese imperialism. He is trying to open people's eyes to the brutality of "our" imperialism.
A pox on all the houses of imperialism - Russian, European, American, Japanese, Chinese and Australian. Posted by Passy, Monday, 18 August 2008 6:23:50 PM
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Atman, Current Affairs shows are usually bad news shows. Good news is saved for programs like Catalyst, Compass or foreign correspondent.
The shows usually have western 'experts' as presumably the Russian and Chinese experts are not free to speak their minds. I am not aware of any current affairs shows on commercial television bashing the non-west. In fact the only current affairs shows on commercial TV are on SBS some of which is far more left wing than anything on the ABC. Perhaps you can recommend a current affairs program on commercial TV as I rarely watch 7,9 and 10. I listen to ABC radio for 6-10 hours a day and I think that overall it is well balanced, every side gets a say. The ABC is in fact monitored for overall bias. Philip Adams is balanced out by Rachel Cohn, John Cleary et al. Something sadly lacking on the other channels. Posted by gusi, Tuesday, 19 August 2008 2:19:15 AM
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in the week preceeding hiroshima, america rolled out another type of bomb: simple napalm. applied to tokyo in a single mass raid, more than 100,000 died in a single day. no need for demonstrations of atomic power, no need for radiation poisoning, and a simple way to kill as many japanese in their wood and paper cities as it took to get surrender.
but the target was the soviet union, the frightening of. for many americans, ww2 was just a tedious interlude in the war against communism. bush0 did 2 years in jail for his support of the nazis, churchill tried to continue and expand the ww1 conquest of germany into his personal vendetta against the soviet union, and got far enough with his plans to scare lenin. the resulting soviet paranoia was firmly based on history. pilger is a human being, and no doubt has his individual flaws. but he has tried to give the world a view of government activities from the 'back-side'. my experience with governments and supporters of governments has long ago convinced me that if their mouths are open, they are lying. if you must rely on someone's word, take pilger's Posted by DEMOS, Thursday, 21 August 2008 12:19:28 PM
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Demos, you seem to see Pilger as some imperfect, yet well meaning individual trying to expose the injustices of the past. You forget Japan and Germany initiated a major world war with the purpose of annihilating liberal democracies. Consequently, they brought about their own defeat and the deaths of many of their own people. Suddenly,in the 21st Century, Pilger reinterprets this having become innocent victims of Western imperialism! Its sheer lunacy and I'm surprised at how many can be so easily convinced.
Posted by Atman, Friday, 22 August 2008 4:03:53 PM
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Yes, the Japanese forces were agressive and committed appalling attrocities during the Manchurian and Second World Wars. Yes, the allies wreaked appalling violence on the people of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Both sides indiscriminately killed and maimed civilians during the war, and not only the armed forces they faced.
I think it's actually pretty simple: the torture and annihilation of anyone is injust, and above all civilians. Pilger is simply pointing out who is threatening to and capable of doing that these days. Clearly it's not simply "them" but also some of "us". It's so easy for commentators siding with an aggressive policy or government to cite the violence of the other side as an excuse for their own. Two wrongs don't make a right. Disproportionate violence cannot be legitimised by a "they started it" or "but we're the good guys" argument. "Peace" is often used as an end to justify violence. In the case of WWII, however, it appears that the use of nuclear weapons was not the only means to ending the conflict with Japan and was indeed for a different end altogether! Is that nevertheless more justifiable just because it was "us" and not "them"? We all know that governments work with much more complicated goals and agendas than simply protecting civilians and/or their particular "civilisation". We all know that governments will use a range of moral arguments and discourses of victimisation and threat to justify actions in their interest, including war and violence. Clearly it's not ONLY the governments of "them" who engage in this kind of posturing. Apparently some people don't like journalists such as Pilger reminding them that we should carefully examine our own motives and actions, along with those of our political allies; that if we are going to point out the splinter the eye of others, we'd better be sure we don't have a plank in our own. Posted by Jasmine, Friday, 22 August 2008 8:35:13 PM
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Atman
You say: "You forget Japan and Germany initiated a major world war with the purpose of annihilating liberal democracies. Consequently, they brought about their own defeat and the deaths of many of their own people. Suddenly,in the 21st Century, Pilger reinterprets this having become innocent victims of Western imperialism! Its sheer lunacy and I'm surprised at how many can be so easily convinced." The second world war was a continuation of the first - the battle between European powers for dominance over their rivals, (ie to defend their imperialism or to become a new imperialist power) dragging in the US and Japan in the batttle over the re-division of the world. Pilger is just pointing out western imperialism is as evil as japanese imperialism. The defeat of Russian imperialism in Afghanistan for example was a step forward for humanity just as the defeat of Western imperialism in Vietnam was. This is not to have illusions in the oppressed who are fighting back (eg the Vietnamese were not socialists but nationalists) but rather to see imperialism for what it is - the brutal but logical (within the limits of the capitalist system) military expression of economic competition. The defeats imperialism suffers can influence and help lead to lead to major political change (e.g. the downfall of the USSR) or keep the imperialist beast in its lair for a decade (the defeat of the US in Vietnam). We should support no version of imperialism, not US or European or Rusian or Chinese or Australian imperialism. However the main enemy is at home so it is perfectly acepptable for political journalists like Pilger to point out the horrific human consequences of Western imperialism. His is one voice in the mainstream media swimming against the tide of pro-Western imperialism. One voice against the many. All power to his writing arm. Posted by Passy, Saturday, 23 August 2008 10:42:24 PM
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And speaking of atomic plagues, plus wall to wall lies:
1. http://www.truthout.org/article/the-depleted-uranium-threat