Examinator

I want to thank you for your post of 15 August 2008 at 12:50:57 AM.

It caused me to have a "Eureka moment." In fact I've been thinking about your post ever since I read it later that morning.

What follows is NOT intended as sarcasm. I am TRULY grateful to you for forcing me to see what has been in front of my eyes for decades.

Your post illustrates the truth of the adage that the VICTORS WRITE THE HISTORY BOOKS.

More, your post demonstrates that Islam has almost succeeded in doing to the great PAGAN civilisations that preceded it what Europeans have tried to do to Aborigines – to write them and their achievements out of history.

The reality, examinator, is this:

--Islam conquered a region that had a long tradition of scientific inquiry.

--Islam slowly strangled that PRE-Islamic scientific culture

--Examples of "Islamic science" are actually the fruits of the tail-end of that PRE-Islamic culture before Islam succeeded in extinguishing it.

--For Islam to claim credit for the achievements of these "Muslim" scientists is as preposterous as Catholicism claiming credit for Galileo's achievements simply because Galileo was born in a Catholic country and was a practising Catholic.

--If anything Islam has been even more antipathetic to scientific enquiry than the Catholic Church.

--Islamic civilisation did preserve certain ancient texts but did little to advance them. By the time these were recovered by European scholars, European science had mostly surpassed what was in them. With the exception of the Almagest they did little to advance European science.

Examinator,

I do not expect to convince you of all this with one post in OLO. The MYTH of a Muslim golden age is too deeply embedded in our culture.

But you have inspired me to start a retirement project. I am going to set up a website that explores the great achievements of Dar-ul-Islam BEFORE Islam.

It will also include the almost forgotten achievements of HINDU mathematic. The Hindus, not the Arabs, invented zero and much else.

THANK YOU EXAMINATOR!

IamJoseph,
The sites you supplied are conspiracy opinion sites and interpretive.
The article talk about the 1800's (I said that) not 1660 as your response claims.
I said Zionism as coherent ORGANIZATION with clear pan Jewish ideals didn't get off the ground until 1897.
It is Jewish propaganda that the Balfour Declaration promised Jews anything more than a home. It didn’t promise a state. Therefore all that which you argue from there is flawed logic. Ergo the Jews weren’t betrayed…read it OBJECTIVELY (then read Lloyd George’s PM at the time intentions.).

What Pope Pius XII said or the Vatican believed in 1938-53 is irrelevant today.
The Holocaust was a logical consequence of Nazism. Humans always seek scapegoats for what they don’t understand.

Certainly the Jews crucifying Jesus and therefore never forgiven is irrelevant today as there has been at least one Encyclical or Papal Bull that refutes that since then. You aren’t responsible personally for the ‘stolen generation’ any more than today’s Germans are responsible for the Holocaust?

Wise saying “no matter how well you nurse a grudge it’ll never get better”.

Advice:
• Don’t take your info solely from the net as its credibility maybe suspect.
• Good reasoning is to read all the info with an open mind not cherry pick for facts to prove your prejudicial assumption.
• You should be wary of quoting from previous generations as justification for today’s actions.

BTW. This is a long way from the seed article; it is NOT about the Jewish situation neither do I take side in that debate.
My point of writing is NOT to change your mind it was to glean information and point out that your facts are incomplete and your reasoning is suspect.
I was right you are a religious tragic and a mislead one at that.
FYO I have a Jewish daughter… I am not anti-Semitic.
We have both made our points….END

Two ideas:

1: Organised religion is better than the pseudo-religions that have come to replace them. For example, Consumerism, Socialism, Feminism...

The damage done by the zealots of these replacement religions is terrible. The theft of innocent children from their fathers by twisted the feminist law court (Family Law Court) is destroying the opportunities of a whole generation of children.

2: Organised religions that have lasted thousands of years generally do good (with very few exceptions, for example sexual abuse of boys by very small percentage of few rotten-apples in the priesthood).

Wars are *not* caused by organised religion. Religion is used as the excuse for profit. Even the Crusades were not about religion, it wa about plundering the waelth of the aging middle east empires. FOr example one of the major Crusades ended up plundering Christian Constaninople, and left the infidels in peace! Profiteering, hiding behind religion.

3: The worries about Muslims is driven by the demographic fact that for every 'christian' baby, there are about 10 Mulsim babies being born in this world. The rise in prominence of Muslim concerns is driven by the rapid rise in muslim populations.

The other side of this is the genocide that western nations are committing against themselves through failing fertility. Overly-powerful nasty feminism has created an imbalance between men and women. So many middle-class men refuse to commit, and refuse to become fathers, for fear of the divorce courts stealing them. Vindictive feminism has created a "marriage strike" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_strike

“The sites you supplied are conspiracy opinion sites and interpretive.”

No sir – I can post you numerous other sources or you can google the net to affirm my posts are 'factual history', not propaganda. My point was that America first acknowledged Israel’s rights, while Europe was in its denial, until Briton was prevailed upon. You are rejecting proof and calling it propaganda.

“I said Zionism as coherent ORGANIZATION with clear pan Jewish ideals didn't get off the ground until 1897.”

Zion and Zionism are ancient symbols, same as the star of david Israel uses. Herzl merely used the term in 1897 and made the return a political one, finally prevailing over Europe’s horrific persecutions and falsehoods of the Jews.

“It is Jewish propaganda that the Balfour Declaration promised Jews anything more than a home. It didn’t promise a state.”

Your wrong again. The state was not Briton’s right but the right of Jews to return from the land Europe stole, then barred their return: Briton entered thr scene with a Mandate attached - which it corrupted before the world, when Jews were at their most helpless. Israel returned despite Europe’s terrible deeds. And the Balfour did grant state rights - your twisting of this is telling: Jordan could not be created [as a State!} unless the Balfour was ratified, and this was done by Briton and the UN, naming two 'STATES' in Palestine where there should have been one. There were no Palestinians then till Arafat shook hands with the Pope.

"IT WILL BE AN HISTORIC COMPROMISE TO GRANT TWO STATES IN PALESTINE - ONE FOR THE JEWS AND ONE FOR THE ARABS" - Churchill.

I think your offering, partTimeParent, should become the template for all Christian responses on this thread.

It encapsulates the spectrum of present-day Christian emotions, from smugness ("Organised religion is better..."), through denial ("Wars are *not* caused by organised religion...") to fear ("for every 'christian' baby, there are about 10 Mulsim babies..").

Each one of these is, of course, simply knee-jerk nonsense.

>>Organised religion is better than the pseudo-religions that have come to replace them. For example, Consumerism, Socialism, Feminism...<<

These are not religions, partTimeParent.

Christianity and -isms are not mutually exclusive. Our very own PM is both Christian, and Socialist.

Europe has even seen a Christian Social Workers’ Political Party. Unfortunately they were also rather anti-Semitic.

Further, I'm not sure how you can say this with a straight face:

>>The theft of innocent children from their fathers by twisted [sic] the feminist law court...<<

...when christian missionaries were primarily responsible for the widespread relocation of children known as "the stolen generation".

>>Even the Crusades were not about religion,..<<

Hmmmm. I think I need a little more than just your word for that.

>>The rise in prominence of Muslim concerns is driven by the rapid rise in muslim populations<<

This may be true, but you fail to say i) what is the problem with Muslims procreating or ii) what the world can do about it. Especially given the ever-present issue of finite resources.

I suspect you might have a more personal agenda, to do with your family situation, or lack of it, which would explain the lack of logic in this post.

However, you do hit all the usual Christian buttons...

“What Pope Pius XII said or the Vatican believed in 1938-53 is irrelevant today. “

Why is that so? – it was a criminal nazi-like, racist deed, and that Pope should not be beatified – that makes a mockery of that title. Goals of Genocide, by claiming IN JESUS, does not call for Beaitification.

“The Holocaust was a logical consequence of Nazism."

Nazism was hardly logical, and admitted as caused by Christian doctrines – the scapegoat syndrome is not mine, but of Europe’s history.

“Certainly the Jews crucifying Jesus and therefore never forgiven is irrelevant today”

What about the doctrine Jews are born of apes, and what's the difference from the Gospel doctrine? I think the Pope and those doctrines were wrong, and historically only smacks of its antithesis. Jesus was killed by Europe – as were millions of Jesus’ kinfolk – and all on the charge of Heresy: JC never stood a hope of surviving with this decree hovering, and Rome needed no prompts from the Jews. Roman Catholicism then went on to massacre more than Rome with its own heresy & deicide [sic] charge.

Not only is the charge absolutely without a shred of evidence outside of the Gospels, it cannot be evidenced even in Roman archives: when have you seen Jews kill and snigger over one man’s death outside of the Gospels?

Your bigger problem is Islam, which emerged in the same space-time, totally contradicting the Gospels, claiming Jesus was not crucified and lived and died in Egypt. Whatever the case – it is a fact that Jewish writings is perhaps the most vindicated in history, while the reverse can be said of the Gospels - its not an historical document, and self declared as such - it is a 'BELIEF' and one which contradicts every historical truth.

Deicide, luke the blood libels and the Protocols, is one desperate claim – because there is nothing in the bag. Jesus was not a Christian and Europe used his name to commit the greatest attrocities in recorded history. Thus the surviving witness must be wiped off the map. Understandable.