Pelican

You are welcome in my bunker anytime - we agree on much that we'd feel comfortable and disagree on enough to make our time interesting.

Veronika

I agree completely with your take on MTR - I don't think any woman who believes in her own autonomy and reproductive rights is hoodwinked by her.

Steel - you continue to alienate an intelligent group of people who actually share your views on many issues, but your rants on feminism are too hostile and tend to neuter any credibility you have.

Veronika>"Steel, you are of course free to believe that feminism and the religious right have formed an unholy alliance."

That's not the impression I was trying to give. They're not allied, but they certainly share a common goal (or goals), which is heavy censorship. For the division of feminism that has great political influence and activism, it's a fact.

Veronika>"I've never met a feminist who things women should advance at ANY cost to men. But if they exist, I will fight them with you."

Sometimes these things happen as unintended consequences or as side effects of policy/debate frameworks. The whole debate/policy is skewed by the debate around feminism, rather than an equal debate. Feminism should no longer exist, unless there is a balance to the scale, or if it were merged into a single consideration about "human affairs, or something".

There several key areas which show this all to be true. One of which is the circumcision debate.

Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to some feminists at all, just like I think Steel Mann is a shining example of a true Christian (though no doubt I will disagree with him on something), he is an insignificant minority when it comes to policy and lawmaking.

Veronika

"Getting the message out about her agenda is important, and my feminists mates have been trying to point out MTR isn't one of us for a long time."

I too consider myself a moderate feminist, and while I don't support Melinda's views on abortion or religion, I agree with her stance on other issues. It's just part of the natural give and take of living in a pluralistic society. There's no agenda. I have to say you're sounding as paranoid as Steel!

I particularly applaud Melinda's strong advocacy on the premature sexualization of young girls. To me, this is an obvious feminist position to take and not a religious, conservative or moralistic one at all.

Feminism is and should be a broad church and with respect, Veronika, I think Melinda has as much place within its ranks as you and your 'feminist mates' and anyone else who wants a fair go for women.

Bronwyn: "Feminism is and should be a broad church and with respect, Veronika, I think Melinda has as much place within its ranks as you and your 'feminist mates' and anyone else who wants a fair go for women."

So do I, which is why I called her a feminist, and emphasised her right to free speech. But I don't like the way MTR and her organisation exert pressure on young, vulnerable girls to continue with pregnancies they may not really want. (I'd feel the same way if I saw an abortion clinic encouraging girls to have abortions, rather than give women as much info as possible and help them make an honest, independent position.)

She also calls for a moratorium on research into cloning with which I fundamentally disagree.

At the same time, I believe MTR very sincere in her beliefs, and she's an intelligent woman. I'm really not a conspiracy theorist and I do understand how far MTR's cultural and political influence extends. As I said earlier, she won't overturn abortion law in this country, but she keeps the religious/conservative home fires burning and she's lighting sparks for a new generation.

In short, I strongly disagree with her, but I understand she's a feminist and I'd defend her right to say whatever it is she's got to say.

I probably sounded a bit ridiculous talking about my feminist mates, so you're right to call me on it. While I'm making concessions, Usual Suspect was right to pick me up on "*cue inevitable "thank god she's gone" style comments*". The earlier part of my post was honest frustration and annoyance, but that did come across passive aggressive. So forgive me on both counts

Veronika and Bronwyn

I agree with the points you have raised regarding MTR and her right to free speech.

However I am disturbed that you feel you should 'qualify' your belief in feminism.

For example Bronwyn: "I too consider myself a moderate feminist..."

This is similar to the position that many Muslims feel themselves in, that they have to qualify themselves as moderate in order not to be regarded as a terrorist or fundamentalist.

I am a feminist because I believe in equal opportunities for all regardless of gender. That is the starting point. From there we (feminists) may be religious or atheist, Liberal or libertarian... whatever. But I am not going to be forced to qualify myself because of the sniping by some who have a chip on their shoulder regarding feminism.

As you say feminism is a very broad church, and as such, MTR has her place.

However please consider the following excerpt:

"Now, perhaps, as the Feminists for Life literature says, it is possible to oppose all forms of legal abortion -- even those that would save the life of the pregnant woman -- and still be a feminist.

But if one were to take such a stance and consider oneself a feminist, one would certainly believe that women should have access to contraception, right? Apparently not if one is a member of Feminists for Life, an organization that refuses to take a stand on whether or not contraception should be legal. (Note that few, if any, Protestant denominations take issue with the use of any kind of contraception, although some religious-right anti-abortion organizations regard the morning-after pill as an abortificant.)

When Feminists for Life has chosen to address the issue of contraception, it has invariably been to point out the health hazards posed in particular forms of birth control"

From :
http://www.alternet.org/rights/43241/the_stealth_%27feminists%27_who_oppose_abortion/

Do 'Feminists for Life' remind you of anyone?

One thing I do know, the price of freedom is constant vigilance as a result I tend to view MTR's concerns for women, in a very circumspect manner indeed.

Bronwyn>"It's just part of the natural give and take of living in a pluralistic society. There's no agenda. I have to say you're sounding as paranoid as Steel!"

In this case it's just take. You are taking the liberty of these girls and replacing it with a sexist ideology. There is no paranoia here as everything I've said is a fact. The "x is paranoid" card is simply stained and dirty.

Bronwyn>"Feminism is and should be a broad church "

Now how interesting...I presume other feminists may question politely, but not attack the "priests" or the church and it's teachings. I suppose this is why you have chosen to correct Veronika and assert the authority of this 'priest'.

Bronwyn>"I particularly applaud Melinda's strong advocacy on the premature sexualization of young girls."

This really is looking like a key slogan. And any targets deemed suitable are used for the agenda,which is sickening. You cared not a jot for the young boys in an exhibition held in support of Henson. And this proves that this whole campaign was extremely sexist and nothing about the children at all. It was about your church. Your ideology. The models involved have disagreed with you 100%, as have their parents. They did not appreciate people like you speaking in their place and exploiting them. You've sought to drown out their voices.

Bronwyn>"To me, this is an obvious feminist position to take and not a religious, conservative or moralistic one at all."

It's both.It's a feminist position and it's all three of the above. How interesting that you should reveal this. You can read BOAZ' article about skimpy *clothes* to know it's religious and also see Melinda's hidden extreme religious views. It's certainly a conservative one. And moralistic? It's greatly moralistic. In fact it's so moralistic that the models involved have been abused by media agents and exploited for Hetty's and Melinda's agenda and your "feminist church", demonised and characterised as sluts/revolting by these people for openly, tentatively, exercising their freedom and free will.