Usual Suspect: "Ah, so funny. I love it how feminists somehow believe that the rich powerful men in the world hold their power for all men, and all men then hold such power by proxy, to keep the women folk downtrodden, as per order of 'the patriachy'. And you're laughing at matriachy conspiracies..."

Huh? Which feminists believe that? And how does this absurd idea of downtrodden women folk relate to the quotes from Pelican and SJF?

The debate is about art, but I feel as if I have walked into a pre-existing and intractable argument about feminism. I found it very weird, US, that you called one of Pelican's posts "propaganda". This is a heavy-handed claim to make about a post that certainly argued its point, but read to me like deeply held personal belief. It seems the template for posts, ON BOTH SIDES, is to trivialise/exaggerate/distort someone else's ideas, then insult them.

To what end though? No one seems to change their mind. No one is honing their argument because they're not actually listening to the others.

Bah! Sorry for the frustration. It just came a'tumbling out. SJF, you raise interesting points, but I'll have leave y'all to it.

*cue inevitable "thank god she's gone" style comments*

Veronika

Apologies, I was dangling a line, simply because I have said all I have to say about the Henson/art/porn debate on other threads. The link below sums up my POV:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1831&page=0#36430

Anyway, I dangled a line and I caught the Usual Suspect. Too funny.

SJF, "the exchange with R0bert WAS fruitless " - hope not. I'm having a think about your comments and I can see that there is another meaning possible to them. I've not managed to work out where the "same old avalanche of tedious tanties about wowsers trying to spoil everyone's fun/hold us back/keep us holy" occurred.

If I've misread you it is unintentional. I accept that I may have interpreted your comments based on my perceptions of past disagreements with you - not a grudge but a perception which is impacted by different styles. Frankly I'd rather be wrong, if I am that gives scope for better dialog in the future.

R0bert

Veronica,

'Which feminists believe that?'
The ones who still bang on about a patriachy in a society where men and women have equal rights and opportunity. Patriachy is a "straw man" feminists use to paint all men with one broad brush to trash them by bringing up actions of men long ago.
It's the concept that any & all male power is a bad thing, and that men will use their power to oppress women. ALL men... ALL bad... ALL acting with some supposed collective mindset.

'And how does this absurd idea of downtrodden women folk relate to the quotes from Pelican and SJF?
'
I didn't even quote pelican in the post you are referring to. As for SJF, see...

'And if you really want a taste of extremist totalitarianism, try living as a feminist under a patriarchy'

'very weird, US, that you called one of Pelican's posts "propaganda'"
I called the phrase 'equality for women' propaganda. Pelican happened to use it, and then posted anyone who doesn't agree with this is anti-women. I rightly pointed out the flaw in this argument.

'pre-existing and intractable argument about feminism'
That's because the author is a feminist, and these topics always bring out the women as victim brigade, and the men sick of hearing it brigade. The absence of discussion about naked boys ensures feminist overtones, as does MTR past form.

'*cue inevitable "thank god she's gone" style comments*'
That's a lot more 'weird' than citing propaganda in slogans used by feminists. Passive aggressive, persecution complex, attention seeking or seaching for validation. Have your pick, I wont bother to work out which applies.

Usual Suspect, this author is more than a feminist. She's apparently a catholic pro-lifer who leads a women's forum in Australia. In other words, she represents with her opinions and articles here, the essential point I've been trying to get people to realise. Religious extremists have a close alliance with feminists. Both shield the other from association and this author chose not to reveal her links to extreme pro-censorship politicians of the past in her profile description. This is very telling. Australia is being compromised by dual ideologies of feminism (what you're saying here is correct) and the religious who want theocracy. Unwitting women and men -as you can see here-are finding themselves defending these damaging agendas and the people who deceive and use them.

Be afraid, be very afraid......

We are in danger of a Catholic Feminist Conspiracy, bent on world domination. Eeeeeek.!

I've started digging my bomb shelter now. Can't be too prepared.